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Start listening today at P-O-D-C-A-S-T-L-I-D-R-A-R-Y.org. Start listening today at P-O-D-C-A-S-T-L-I-D-R-A-R-Y. And so, Glogan, we have arrived at the conclusion that in the perfect state, wives and children are to be in common, and that all education and the pursuits of war and peace are also to be common, and the best philosophers and the bravest warriors are to be their kings. That replied Glogan has been acknowledged.
Yes, I said, and we have further acknowledged that the governors, when appointed themselves, will take their soldiers and place them in houses such as we were describing, which are common to all, and contain nothing private or individual, and about their property, you remember what we agreed? Yes, I remember that no one was to have any of the ordinary possessions of mankind, they were to be warrior athletes and guardians, receiving from the other citizens in the view of annual payment, only their maintenance, and they were to take care of themselves over the whole state. True, I said, and now that this division of our task is concluded, let us find the point at which we digressed, that we may return into the old path. There is no difficulty in returning.
You implied, then, as now, that you had finished the description of the state. You said that such a state was good, and that the man was good who answered to it, although, as now appears, you had more excellent things to relate both of state and man. And you said further, that if this was the true form, then the others were false, and of the false forms you said, as I remember, that there were four principal ones, and that their defects and the defects of the individuals corresponding to them were worth examining. One we'd seen all the individuals, and finally agreed as to who was the best, and who was the worst of them.
We were to consider whether the best was not also the happiest, and the worst the most miserable. I asked you, what were the full forms of government of which you spoke, and then, Palomarchus and Ademantus put in their word, and you began again, and I found your way to the point at which we have now arrived. Your recollection, I said, is most exact. Then, like a wrestler, you replied, you must put yourself again in the end, and you must put yourself again in the same position, and let me ask the same question, and do you give me the same answer which you are about to give me then?
Yes, if I can, I will, I said. I shall particularly wish to hear what were the four constitutions of which you were speaking. That question, I said, is easily answered. The four governments of which I spoke, so far as they have distinct names, are, first, those of Crete and Sparta, which are generally applauded.
What is termed Olicarchy comes next. This is not equally approved, and is a form of government which teams with evils. Thirdly, democracy, which naturally follows Olicarchy, although very different. And lastly comes tyranny, great and famous, which differs from them all, and is the fourth and worst disorder of a state.
I do not know, do you, of any other constitution, which can be said to have a distinct character? There are lordships and principalities which are bought and sold, and some other intermediate forms of government. But these are nondescripts, and may be found equally among Helens and among barbarians. Yes, he replied, we certainly hear of many curious forms of government which exist among them.
Do you know, I said, that governments vary as the dispositions of men vary, and that there must be as many of the one as there are of the other? For we cannot suppose that states are made of oak and rock, and not out of the human natures which are in them, and which in a figure turn the scale and draw other things after them. Yes, he said, the states are as the men are, they grow out of human characters. Then, if the constitutions of states are five, the dispositions of individual minds will also be five?
Suddenly, him who answers to aristocracy, and whom we rightly call just and good, we have already described. We have. Then, let us now recede to describe the inferior sort of natures, being the contentious and ambitious, who answer to the Spartan polity. Also, the oligarchical, democritical, and tyrannical.
Let us place the most just by the side of the most unjust, and when we see them, we shall be able to compare the relative happiness or unhappiness of him who leads a life of pure justice or pure injustice. The inquiry will then be completed, and we shall know whether we ought to pursue injustice as Thresomax advises, or in accordance with the conclusions of the argument to prefer justice. Suddenly, he replied, we must do what you say. Shall we follow our old plan, which we adopted with a view to clearness, of taking the state first, and then proceeding to the individual, and begin with a government of honor?
I know of no name for such a government other than Timeocracy, or perhaps Timerke. We will compare with this the like character in the individual, and after that, consider Olicarchy and the Olicarchical man. And then again, we will turn our attention to democracy and the Democritical man. And lastly, we will go and view the city of tyranny, and once more take a look into the tyrant's soul, and try to arrive at a satisfactory decision.
That way of viewing and judging of the matter will be very suitable. First then, I said, let us inquire how Timeocracy, the government of honor, arises out of aristocracy, the government of the best. Clearly, all political changes originate in divisions of the actual governing power. A government which is united, however small, cannot be moved.
Very true, he said. In what way then will our city be moved, and in what manner will the two classes of auxiliaries and rulers disagree among themselves, or with one another? Shall we, after the manner of Homer, pray the Muses to tell us how discord first arose? Shall we imagine them in solemn mockery to play and jest with us as if we were children, and to address us in a lofty, tragic vein, making believe to be an earnest?
How would they address us? After this manner. A city which is thus constituted can hardly be shaken, but seeing that everything which has a beginning has also an end, even a constitution such as yours will not last forever, but will in time be dissolved. And this is a disillusioned.
Implants that grow in the earth, as well as in animals that move on the earth's surface, fertility and sterility of soul and body occur when the circumferences of the circles of each are completed, which in short-lived existences pass over a short space and in long-lived ones over a long space. But to the notch of human fecundity and sterility, all the wisdom and education of your rulers will not attain. The laws which regulate them will not be discovered by an intelligence which is alloid with sense, but will escape them, and they will bring children into the world when they ought not. Now, that which is of divine birth has a period which is contained in a perfect number, but the period of human birth is comprehended in a number in which first increments by involution and evolution Obtaining three intervals and four terms of alike and unlike, waxing and waning numbers make all the terms commensurable and agreeable to one another.
The base of these, with a third edit, when combined with five and raised to the third power, furnishes two harmonies, the first a square which is a hundred times as great, and the other a figure having one side equal to the former, but oblong, consisting of a hundred numbers squared upon rational diameters of a square, the side of which is five, each of them being less by one, or less by two perfect squares of irrational diameters, and a hundred cubes of three. Now, this number represents a geometrical figure which has control over the good and evil of birth. For when your guardians are ignorant of the law of birth and unite bride and bridegroom out of season, the children will not be goodly or fortunate, and they will only the best of them will be appointed by their predecessors, still they will be unworthy to hold their fathers' places, and when they come into power as guardians, they will soon be found to fail in taking care of us, the muses, first by undervaluing music, which neglect will soon extend to gymnastic, and hence the young man of your state will be less cultivated. In the succeeding generation, rulers will be appointed who have lost the guardian power of testing the metal of your different races, which, like Hesiods, are of gold and silver, and brass and iron, and so iron will be mingled with silver, and brass with gold, and hence will arise dissimilarity and inequality and irregularity, which always and in all places are causes of hatred and war.
This, the muses affirm to be the stock from which discord has sprung, wherever arising, and this is their answer to us. Yes, and we may assume that they answer truly. Why, yes, I said, of course they answer truly. How can the muses speak falsely?
And what do the muses say next? When this chord arose, then the two races were drawn different ways. The iron and brass felt acquiring money, and land, and houses, and gold and silver. But the gold and silver races, not wanting money, but having the true riches in their own nature, inclined towards virtue and the ancient order of things.
There was a battle between them, and at last they agreed to distribute their land and houses among individual owners, and they enslaved their friends and maintainers, who only had formally protected in the condition of freemen, and made of them, subjects, and servants, and they themselves are engaged in war and in keeping a watch against them. I believe that you have rightly conceived the origin of the change. And the new government, which thus arises, will be of a form intermediate between oligarchy and aristocracy. Very true.
Such will be the change, and after the change has been made, how will they proceed? Clearly, the new state, being an amine between oligarchy and the perfect state, will partly follow one and partly the other, and will also have some peculiarities. True, he said. In the honour given to rulers, in the abstinence of the warrior class from agriculture, hand-acrafts, and trade in general, in the institution of Colin Meals, and in the attention paid to gymnastics and military training, in all these respects, this state will resemble the former.
True. But in the fear of admitting philosophers to power, because they are no longer to be had simple and earnest, but are made up of mixed elements, and in turning from them to passionate and less complex characters, who are by nature fitted for war rather than peace, and in the value set by them about military traditions and contrivances, and in the waiting of everlasting wars, this state will be for the most part peculiar. Yes. Yes, I said, and men at this temp will be covered as of money, like those who live in oligarchies.
They will have a fierce secret longing after golden silver, which they will hoard in dark places, having magazines and treasuries of their own for the deposit and concealment of them. Also castles, which are just nests for their eggs, and in which they will spend large sums on their wives, or on any other assume they please. That is most true, he said. And they are miserly, because they have no means of openly acquiring the money which they prize.
They will spend that which is another man's on the gratification of their desires, stealing their pleasures, and running away like children from the law, their father. They have been scald not by gentle influences, but by force, for they have neglected her who is the true muse, the companion of reason and philosophy, and have honored gymnastic more than music. Undoubtedly, he said, the form of government which you describe is a mixture of good and evil. Why, there is a mixture, I said.
But one thing, and one thing only, is predominantly seen, the spirit of contention and ambition, and these are due to the prevalence of the passionate or spirited element. Assuredly, he said, such is the origin and such the character of his state which has been described in outline only, the more perfect execution was not required, for a sketch is enough to show the type of the most perfectly just and most perfectly unjust, and to go through all the states and all the characters of men, omitting none of them, would be an interminable labor. Very true, he replied. Now, what man answers to this form of government?
How did he come into being, and what is he like? I think, said Adomantus, that in a spirit of contention which characterizes him, he is not unlike our friend Glaucom. Perhaps, I said, he may be like him in that one point, but there are other respects in which he is very different. In what respects?
He should have more of self-assertion and be less cultivated, and yet a friend of culture, and he should be a good listener but no speaker. Such a person is apt to be rough with slaves, unlike the educated man who is too proud for that, and he will also be courches to free men and remarkably obedient to authority. He is a lover of power and a lover of honor, claiming to be a ruler, not because he is eloquent or on any ground of that sort, but because he is a soldier and has performed feats of arms. He is also a lover of gymnastic exercises and of the chase.
Yes, that is the type of character which answers to timeocracy. Such a one will despise riches only when he is young, but as he gets older he will be more and more attracted to them, because he has a piece of the avaricious nature in him and is not single-minded towards virtue, having lost his best guardian. Who was that, said Adomunters? Philosophy, I said, tempered with music, who comes and takes up her abode in a man and is the only saviour of his virtue throughout life.
Good, he said. Such, I said, is a time of critical youth, and he is like the time of critical state. Exactly. His origin is as follows.
He is often the young son of a brave father, who dwells in an ill-governed city of which he declines the honors and officers and will not go to law or exert himself in any way, but is ready to waive his rights in order that he may escape trouble. And how does the son come into being? The character of the son begins to develop when he hears his mother complaining that her husband has no place in the government, of which the consequences that she has no precedence among other women. Further, when she sees her husband not very eager about the money, and instead of battling and railing in the law courts or assembly, taking whatever happens to him quietly, and when she observes that his thoughts always centering himself, while he treats her with very considerable indifference, she has annoyed and says to her son that his father is only half a man and far too easy going, adding all the other complaints about her own ill treatment, which women are so fond of rehearsing.
Yes, said Adomantus, they give us plenty of them, and their complaints are so like themselves. And you know, I said, that the old servants also, who are supposed to be attached to the family, from time to time talk privately in the same strain to the son. And if they see anyone who owes money to his father, or is wronging him in any way, and he fails to prosecute them, they tell the youth that when he grows up, he must retaliate upon people of his sword, and be more of a man than his father. He is only to walk abroad, and he hears and sees the same sort of thing.
Those who do their own business in the city are called simpletons, and held a nose-team, while the busy bodies are honoured and applauded. The result is that the young man, hearing and seeing all these things, hearing too the words of his father, and having a nearer view of his way of life, and making comparisons of him and others, is drawn opposite ways. While his father is watering and nourishing the rational principle in his soul, the others are encouraging the passionate and epitative. And he being not originally of a bad nature, but having kept bad company, is at last brought by their joint influence to a middle point, and gives up the kingdom which is within him, to the middle principle of contentiousness and passion, and becomes arrogant and ambitious.
You seem to me to have described his origin perfectly. Then we have now, I said, the second form of government, and the second type of character? We have. End of Book 8, Part 1.