293: Cinderella

Hi, and welcome to Classical Stuff You Should Know, a podcast about classical books, classical works, the old world, education, and stuff like that. My name is Graeme Donaldson, and I am here with my two friends in classical education learning book stuff, A.J. Hanberg. Me.

And Thomas Magby. Me. And, boys, when I came in this morning, I noticed there was, like, little animals running around the room setting up our microphones, brewing us coffee. I was a little cold, and all of a sudden, two little birds came flying in with a jacket for me, and they placed it upon my broad shoulders.

Way to slide that in there. YouTube will know better. I needed some cream in my coffee, and all of a sudden, like, a little weevil showed up with a pitcher of cream, and I realized that this is how the world works, that small woodland creatures are there to serve mankind and love us, and they were singing a happy song. And Thomas is going to give us a history of such things in his reading of Cinderella.

I'm going to read you the story. We're talking about Cinderella. We're back to the Blue Fairy book. So I, you know, so, you know, we're texting about preparing for today, and Graham has an episode.

AJ says yesterday that he doesn't have an episode. I probably need to have an episode. Wait, I'll be on the box. Okay.

I'm going to move right past it, but, and I'm like, oh, I prepared an episode. I have an episode ready, and I didn't present it at one of our last times we got together. I'm so excited. So I go to Apple Notes.

I type in Cinderella. I open the note with Cinderella. Zero notes inside of it. I made a note titled Cinderella, and that was all that I did.

So there you go. We are mostly going to be reading this story today, and as always, it's, you know, the Cinderella one is interesting because obviously everyone knows the movie, presumably. But Cinderella is interesting for there being so many different versions of the story. So let me, I'll just put it to you all.

When I say Cinderella, like, what is, what are things that you remember from the story that are, like, particularly important? Glass Slipper. Glass Slipper. Fairy Godmother.

Okay. Evil Stepsisters. Evil Stepsisters. Prince Charming.

She goes and she hangs out. Yeah, goes and hangs out with Prince Charming. She has to leave before she turns into a pumpkin. A ball.

She turns into a ball. No, no, there's a ball that she's going to. And then he has to go through the hooking with the Slipper to find out who she was. Yeah, you got it.

So, there are some versions, are you aware of some darker versions where it's like people are trying to force their feet into said Slipper to be the match for the Prince? Well, they do that in the cartoon. Do they cut off her foot? No, the girl tries to, like, shove her foot in there.

Oh, look at Fence. And then it goes, boing. In some of the original versions, the glass is actually a mistranslation of what it originally was. Did you know this?

You know what it is? It's a squirrel fur. Squirrel fur slipper. Squirrel fur.

Who would go and dance on glass? That's just asking for how to be. But fur makes more sense. Squirrel fur makes it seal on more, like, pastoral.

Yeah, it's not, like, graceful and elegant in the way that a glass slipper would be. No, but a glass slipper, like, I'm serious. Like, you make one wrong step and you got, like, you need surgery. It's a bad idea.

I think the glass version makes sense, because especially if you're, like, fitting the shoe to a person. It's very elegant. Yeah, but, like, if you're like, I have this thing that will prove definitively the right person who should be in the shoe, a glass slipper makes sense for that and not squirrel fur. I can show my foot into a squirrel.

I'm not saying it wasn't a fortunate mistranslation. Sure. I just know that it's a mistranslation, which is fine. It's fine.

The glass is a nice addition. You know, sometimes accidents happen, and they're happy accidents. There are people who suggest that it is a mistranslation. However, most scholars believe the glass slipper was a deliberate piece of polite convention on Pearl's part today.

Oh, Charles Pearl. All right, so I didn't have an episode of the end. We'll see if I can throw you under the bus more as we go through this episode. Please, please.

It happens like contests to see how often we can throw you under the bus. I'm also eating biscotti right now. We're really not even trying today. I know, but I'll join in.

Will you put the biscotti into your coffee? Will you actually dip the biscotti into your coffee? I think that'll be better for the listeners, because it won't crunch as much. It's really being considerate when you think about it.

I really appreciate it. We'll do the wrapping. That's terrible. I hate this so much.

How have we been doing this for like eight years? We'll take another wrapping. Graham's already yawning. No, so we're eating.

Awesome. All right, Cinderella, or the little glass slipper. As I said before, we're reading from the Blue Fairy book. Andrew Lane gets all the credit for compiling this, but really his wife was the one compiling, I think, translating in many situations.

So this is from the Blue Fairy book. He's the first one. And that's all I got. We'll talk more about other versions, I think, at the end.

We'll just stick with the story itself to begin. Once there was a gentleman who married for his second wife, the proudest and most haughty woman that was ever seen. Cinderella. Where does this come from?

Why is she called Cinderella? She works at the hearth. So all of the cinders get all over it. She's covered in ash on them.

Have you heard this term before? A cinder winch? Have you heard of this before? I'll just read it.

The poor girl, so she gets mistreated by her stepmom and her two stepsisters. Poor girl bore all patiently and dared not tell her father, who would have rattled her off for his wife and governed him entirely. When she had done her work, she used to go into the chimney corner and sit down among cinders and ashes, which made her commonly be called cinder winch. But the youngest, who was not so rude and uncivilized, the eldest called her Cinderella.

However, Cinderella, notwithstanding her mean apparel, was a hundred times handsomer than her sisters, though they were always dressed very richly. So this is like a job that people had. Like, people would go through the, like, after fires would burn or outside of factories, like, they would be looking for cinders that they could then go and take to houses and that could be used as fuel, right? Like, free or easy access to heat and fuel or whatever was not a thing.

And so this is like a job that people had. And that's what she's relegated to as a part of the house. She's like, tending a fire, trying to collect these cinders, trying to collect, like, excess fuel, and then, obviously, makes her, like, everything. But she didn't go outside to, like...

She's doing this in the house, mostly. But there are, again, the one where you're, like, outside the factory, trying to provided all persons of fashion to it. Our young missus were also invited, for they cut a very grand figure among the quality. They were mightily delighted at this invitation and wonderfully busy in choosing out such gowns, petticoats, headclothes as might become them.

This was new trouble to Cinderella, for it was she who ironed her sister's linen, played with their ruffles. They talked all day long of nothing but how they should be dressed. All right, boys, you all can see this picture right here. Describe to me what's happening with Cinderella.

It's like a sad girl sitting by a fire, looking mournfully into the... I'm trying to get to you, too. Mournfully into you. Oh, like, for the...

Is she? It's hard to see. That's sort of listlessly looking kind of sad. Yeah, it's a nice big fireplace.

It's a big fireplace. Yeah, I mean... I mean, the soft lighting can't hurt, really. But, yeah, so the family's well off, right?

So they have a... If she's any kind of cute, let's do some favors. Yeah, the lighting is helping. Is that good?

So there's this big ball, just like you all talked about, and the stepsisters are getting ready for this. They spend a lot of time talking about what exactly they're going to wear to this, and then they get dressed, they go off to the ball, and then they leave. At last the happy day came, they went to court, and Cinderella followed them with her eyes as long as she could, and when she had lost sight of them, she fell, a-crying. Poor girl.

And then out of nowhere, her godmother, who saw her all in tears, asked her what was the matter. It's not a fairy. Just, well, take a look at this picture. What's that?

Do you see wings on the back of this person? Yeah. And our lesson from before on fairies, do we trust fairies? Never trust a fairy.

Okay, cool. This one works out, though, right? Yeah, this one's okay. They can help, they can hurt, but when they hurt you, they hurt good, so.

But that's... I guess we'll get... I don't totally understand the midnight limitation. Like, the fairy could have just made her have fancy clothes and a way to get there.

They're having no trouble. Yeah. It's just, I don't know if that's, like, a mischievous thing of trying to cause some trouble. So, godmother asked her what's going on.

I wish I could. She was not able to speak the rest, being interrupted by her tears and sobbing. This godmother of hers, who was a fairy, though, there we go, I said to her, thou wishest thou couldst go to the ball. Is it not so?

Yes, cried Cinderella with a great sigh. Well, said her grandmother, be but a good girl, and I will contrive that thou shalt go. She took her into her chamber and said to her, run into the garden and bring me a pumpkin. So, Cinderella goes to get a pumpkin, brings it back, gets turned into...

The carriage. The carriage is what we... Yeah, okay. And then they need horses for this carriage.

And the mice. They go and get mice. So, in the Disney version, these mice are, like, very friendly. Like, they help Cinderella regardless.

Do they talk? They talk to them. They can communicate with Cinderella. Here is a song.

Cinderella, Cinderella, right? Do the dishes. Do the laundry. Anymore?

Keep going. I was hoping that more singing. But in this one, it's, like, straight up, there's a mousetrap, and it has, like, six mice in there, which is disgusting, right? Maybe this was more common back in the day, but if I had six mice in my house just sitting in a trap, I feel like there'd be a problem.

But they go, they get the box, there's a mousetrap, bring it over, turn them into horses. So that's going to be what carries Cinderella to the ball. Cinderella says... That's going to be a disorienting experience.

To go from a mouse to a horse. To do all these things, and all of a sudden, they can do different things, and they have different proclivities and desires. And, like... He's got to be just shocking.

You think it's that different being a mouse versus a horse? Yeah, a minute ago, you want a cheese, now you want oats. That's got to be a hard change. How would you handle that?

Like, you used to have these nice little grabby fingers, and a tail's all bouncing, now your tail is just, like, all wispy. But are they mice who have the appearance of horses, or have they been turned into horses? Inwardly, are they still mice, right? William of Occombe.

That you never knew in the first place. No, no ideal of a horse. Okay, so they get the horses, which is great, and they're like, hey, we need someone to, like, run this, we need a coachman, we need someone to drive this thing. And so, where do they go to find a coachman?

I forget what's the badger. This is a rat. So they, separately from the mousetrap, they have a rat trap, which, again, gross. Sitting in that rat trap, three rats.

If it falls to a mouse, I feel like I got a little bit hosed on this deal. Oh, you think he's a human? Really? And I do, I love this description.

So there are these three rats. The fairy made choice of one of the three, which had the largest beard. And having touched him with her wand, he was turned into a fat, jolly coachman, who had the smartest whiskers eyes ever beheld. That's kind of wonderful.

I like that. Okay, and then after that, they need to have, like, her, I don't know what you call it, it's like people are going to, like, walk with her into, her footmen are exactly what they are. And so, for her entourage, they go and find six lizards, six lizards behind the watering pot, they're brought to the fairy, and then those are turned into her footmen. And so, what, these are people who just, like, bring her to court?

I guess so. Okay, six is a lot. You think so? Well, they all run away when they hear a loud noise, so it's lizards.

So they're still lizards, even though they look like people. They drop all their stuff, and then they take off like this. Okay, so she now has her way to get there. Well, she's missing something.

What is she still missing? A dress. She's still missing her dress. And so the fairy godmother seems to kind of forget about this, and is like, okay, you're ready to go to court.

And Cinderella's hesitating, and, well, you see, here, an equipage fits to the ball. Are you not pleased with it? So, like, you have this coach, you have these horses, you have this guy who's going to, like, drive you there. So Cinderella says, oh, yes, Christy, but must I go to her as I am in these nasty rags?

Her godmother only just touched her with her wand, and at the same instant her clothes were turned into cloth of gold and silver, all beset with jewels. This done, she gave her a pair of glass slippers, the prettiest in the world, being thus decked out. Oh, that was funny. Decked out, I don't know.

She got up into her coach, but her godmother, above all things, commanded her not to stay until after midnight, telling her, at the same time, that if she stayed one moment longer, the coach would be a pumpkin again, her horse's mice, her coach's men are rats, her footman lizards, and her clothes become just as they were before. So, she has to be back before midnight. You were out to one. What of your stuff did, like, turn back into?

What did you have, and what did it get turned back into? My partner's nice. Turn back into jello. Your voice is great.

That happened pretty early in the night, I feel like. I was yelling some lyrics. This is just from you singing along? Yeah, that's crazy.

I like to dance. You're older than I am. I don't understand this. I'm tired of listening to you talk about it.

Okay, so now she has her gold and her silver dress. She has her glass slippers. She has her means of transportation. She is set to go to the ball.

She goes, and as soon as she arrives, it's exactly as you expect. She shows up. There was immediately a profound silence. They left off dancing.

The violence ceased to play. So attentive was everyone to contemplate the singular beauties of the unknown newcomer. That's what you want when you walk into a room. That's exactly what you want.

You can see the movie scene, right? I also note that her dress, just like appearing, is much more friendly to animal labor. Thank you. I appreciate that.

Wait, did they sew it? Oh, yeah, they all, like, sewed it together. They're happy. They're cool with it.

Wait, wait, wait. No, no, no. Because they made her, like, a red dress. They made her a dress, but then it got transformed into the...

Or did they help her make the dresses for her stepsisters? No, no, no. They were harmed in the making of this dress. That's exactly right.

So nothing was then heard but a confused noise of, ha, how handsome she is. The king himself... Just one guy. That sounds like, ooh, she cute, she cute.

The king himself, old as he was, could not help watching her, and telling the queen softly that it was a long time since he had seen so beautiful in love with the creature. Oh, but what? Oh, yeah, boy. Yeah, right.

You know that marriage is not going well. He's like, honey, it's been a long time since I saw anything. My guy? Yeah, stuff.

She's going to be a long time more before you. So everyone's kind of looking at her, talking about her. They have no idea who she is. The king's son conducted her to the most honorable seat, and afterward took her out to dance with him.

She danced so very gracefully that they all more and more admired her. A fine collation was served up where of the young prince ate not a morsel, so instantly was he busy encasing on her. Well, what countries are we talking about here? As lizards?

It's a French story. Now, Cinderella, there are like thousands of versions of Cinderella, which we'll get to know. Was it originally German? German comes much later.

German's about 200 years after. So it's French? Yes. This version is French.

We can do this. So what is considered the first version of the story, I don't think it's really a Cinderella story, but it's an Egyptian story. Wait, hold on. Oh, it's written by a Greek story.

Okay, so it's first recorded by the Greek geographer Strabo. Tell me your favorite thing that Strabo ever wrote. War of the Straits of... His book is called Geographica.

And so here's the story. I'm just quoting this from Geographica. They tell the fabulous story that when she was bathing, an eagle snatched one of her sandals from her maid and carried it to Memphis. And while the king was administering justice in the open air, the eagle, when it arrived above his head, flung the sandal into his lap.

And the king, stirred both by the beautiful shape of the sandal... No way. I'm just reading it to you. ...and by the strangeness of the occurrence, sent men in all directions into the country in quest of the woman who wore the sandal.

And when she was found in the city of Nocratus, she was brought up to Memphis and became the wife of the king. So there you go. So a sandal can fit anyone. That makes no sense.

You know that the guys that the king sent out were like, there's no way we're front of heroes actually is. So let's just pick a hot one. Let's bring it back. So that's...

Say it's your sandal. So I don't know if I said it. We're not going to spend all that out here. Rhodopus is the name of this person.

And Rhodopus means rosy-faced. You know the Greek tragedy version of that is that exactly happens. The girl whose sandal it isn't goes and marries the king. But the person whose sandal it actually is, comes to town and is like, man, you 15 years ago, I lost my sandal.

And the king's like, wait, what? And realizes he's been living this lie. And his current wife, beset by guilt, commits suicide. And then it turns out that the person whose sandal it was was his illegitimate daughter or something.

Anyway, that's the Greek version. The dark beauty reboot that we're going to do. So this version is from 16... And the French one is, I'm going to butcher this, Cendrillon, C-E-N-D-R-I-L-L-I-O-N.

It's anglicized into Cinderella, so we get that. Brothers Graham will come over 100 years later, 1812, and we'll talk about it at the end. But we have one from a long time ago in, we're talking like 7 BC to 24 AD, is that. Oh, you're leaving me hanging.

Last time we were dancing and the prince wasn't eating. This is, you know, and it was French food, so something was wrong. So real tasty food. All the sauces.

So you'd be a fan of the sauces. I was a favorite sauce. I think you'd say that. What about fresh sauce?

The thing is, the French food is just known for having, like, elaborate sauces and broths. Just, you know, like, reductions. Like, you know. That's why it's rich, because it has all these sauces.

I think you said that, like, the making of sauce for food is what separates us from the animals. So the French are the pinnacle of civilization. And Cinderella is good. So the prince is enamored of this Cinderella.

Can't eat. He's just staring at her. Maybe that's, I don't know. Been there.

Cool. Been stared at a lot? No, just can't eat. Just staring at her.

So that's an awkward date. Yes. And all the people are just, again, they're watching her. That includes her two stepsisters.

And this is, I don't understand this. They don't recognize her. Yeah, but it's, I mean, it's the blow-up, right? Like, it's the makeover.

Well, you know, she's lit from every angle. So no one is. Not just one side of the fireplace. You don't expect it, right?

Like, he just. And she's covered in jewels. They're all just looking at her dress, to be honest. But Cinderella goes even, like, an extra step.

So it's not just. There's one way where it's, like, she's beautiful. Everyone's paying attention to her. But then what does she do with that?

So she went and sat down by her sisters. This is her dress up. Goes and sits down by her sisters. Showing them a thousand civilities.

Giving them part of the oranges and citrons, which the prince had presented her with. So she's not, like, poking fun at her sisters. She's, like, giving them gifts that the prince has given her. And she's been passing on.

I don't know if that's bad for regifting. But she's being very kind to her step-sisters. One of whom is mean to her. One of whom, again, like I said before, is kinder to her.

That's the one who gives her the name Cinderella. We may be. The movie may have spoiled this for us. The sisters may not be quite as cruel in the story as they were in the film.

That we all watched as kids. In this version, not. And that doesn't seem so out of character for her to be kind to her sisters. It's something I appreciate.

It comes back at the end of this. It's that Cinderella is not just beautiful, but she is good. And she is showing grace to, let's say it, they go together. And that's, maybe it's a theme in our fairy stories.

But, like, the union of those two things is that it's not just that Cinderella looks really pretty. Therefore, she gets the prince. It's that she's good to people around her. And she's rewarded for that.

And I like that idea of living in a moral universe. It rewards goodness. Do you think moral goodness makes you more attractive? More beautiful?

Yes. I think the opposite is clearer. That meanness makes you uglier. And maybe it's less clear.

The best version I've ever seen of this. I've probably talked about this on the podcast before. By the way, when I said her step-sisters were being only in a dress, it wasn't a comment about women. It was a comment about her step-sisters because they like clothing.

You're really coming out ahead of the critics. Well, I think Chris has come out like being against women before. And it was just a comment about her step-sisters. I'm glad you said something.

Right. You were furious. So offended. Anyway, the best version I've ever seen of the, like, ugly equals bad and attractive equals good, which is probably not a thing we want to promote that much.

Well, it depends which direction, right? Because it's not, you don't want to say that because you're beautiful, you are good. Yes. But you do want to say because you're good, you're beautiful.

Yeah. Okay. Sure. Yes.

I like that. But it was in, so a cartoon, I've watched a couple times called Adventure Time, and Finn, the main character, comes up on this. Yeah. That'd be great.

You watched the whole thing? Not the entire thing, but I watched the first several seasons. People get, like, really into it. Yeah.

It's a great show. He finds the entire idiom. It's a show for children, Graham? It's a children's program.

I got that word cartoon in the background. Anyway. You think all cartoons are just for children? What about that, like, I'm trying to think of a great cartoon that's a cartoon.

Yeah. That's a comic book. Oh. Clearly not for children.

I mean, graphic novel. Is that better, Graham? Sorry. But it also means he's desperate.

See, if you can get more rings, that's what he, like, negotiates for more of the magic rings than he was going to take on. And, of course, they're probably cursed, but I thought it was funny, but, like, yes, he's also desperate was a great line. Please don't trust skeletons. I think that's probably...

They're offering magic rings. That's just, like, not trusting... Various. Yeah, it's a bad thing.

Prince Darling got a magic ring, but it made him good, because it hurt him every time he did a bad thing. I still think that'd be a good invention. Isn't that Pavlov? There's, like, a device that will, like, shock you every time you do something you're not supposed to.

I've seen that for, like, posture. The girls come back home. Cinderella pretends that she's been asleep, and she's, like, woken up by them. And she's, like, oh, how long have you stayed?

Christy, gaping, rubbing her eyes, and stretching herself as if she had just waked out of her sleep, since Cinderella pretending that she'd been asleep when the stepsisters come back, which is very funny. And then the sisters talk about the ball, and this beautiful woman who showed up, how kind she was. Talking, again, they gave us oranges. So they're all just gushing over this incredible time that they had.

I assume that this point oranges are rare. I was trying to remember the story. It's one of the kids' stories that we read, and it's about this father who, like, he has to travel into town to sell his goods, and he, like, sells, like, all of his, you know, the vegetables or whatever he grows. No.

And he sells all the stuff that he gets, and then he, like, buys a single orange for his children, and, like, brings that orange to them. They break it up into six different pieces or whatever, and that's the first and only time they eat an orange, like, their entire childhood, right? They're rare. They're hard to make.

They only come from certain climates. If I'm remembering the story right, one of the kids loses his piece. The dad then, like, goes out to try and get another orange and almost dies. So anyway, to your question of, like, is there something special about them?

It's, like, probably not something that everyone is eating in the way that we get produced very easily from the grocery store, right? I wish I could remember the story. Maybe someone out there listening knows. Do you like oranges?

Yes, they're great. I love oranges. Like oranges? Like pineapple?

Like... You don't like them? No. I think you need to get the two tart ones.

No, I've tried all kinds of oranges. I like orange, man. I like lemons. I like lemons.

I have a persimmon every morning. Every morning. What's a persimmon? It's a fruit.

What? Do you just eat it by itself? Like, what do you? Okay.

It has a texture of an apple, but it kind of tastes like a berry. Okay. Like a cherry. It's delicious.

I get into that. We got them. No way. I've never had one.

So there's all this talk about this beautiful woman at the ball, and what is then planned, then the prince plans and puts on a second ball the following night. So the same thing happens again. So the stepsisters get ready for and go to ball night number two. Cinderella gets her retinue together.

They transform. They go to the ball, and she dances with the prince and has a wonderful time, but she gets caught up, and she forgets the time. And so that she quite forgot what her godmother had recommended to her, and that she at last counted the clock striking 12 when she took it to be no more than 11, so she loses track of time. She thinks it's 11, it's actually 12.

She then rose up and fled as nimble as a deer. The prince followed, but could not overtake her. She left behind one of her glass slippers, which the prince took out most carefully. She got home, but quite out of breath, and in her nasty old clothes, had nothing left her of all her finery, but one of the little slippers.

She gets a slipper, loses everything else. I have a question. Okay. At 12, everything turns back to what it normally was.

Yes. How come the slipper doesn't turn back into, like, cinder shoe? It falls under different rules. So the fairy godmother gave her the slipper, right, whereas her clothes were turned.

Gotcha. So these are different. Legit. Yeah.

So godmother thought of the slippers, but not the dress. Have they thought of it? Well, she's had glass slippers with her. That's it, perfect.

Apparently. Okay. Let me call it. Your fairy story's not the...

It doesn't hold up under scrutiny. I'm sorry. This story for children does not have all the details worked out. So she makes it home, but, like, barely, right?

So she almost transforms and looks like a normal person, but gets away, thankfully. But she leaves behind a slipper. So the slipper is given. The prince gets some of his guys, says, hey, take the slipper.

Take it out. Have people try their shoe on. And in this version of the story, it's like the kinder version. People put their foot in the slipper.

It fits or it doesn't fit. And then they move on to the next one. So the stepsisters try their feet. It doesn't work.

And then they move on. Cinderella, um, is there. And Cinderella, who saw all this, saw the stepsisters trying to put the shoe on, and knew her slippers, said to them, laughing, let me see, it will not fit me. Her sisters burst out laughing and began to banter her.

The gentleman who was sent to try the slipper looked earnestly at Cinderella and, finding her very handsome, said, it was but just that she should try, and that he had orders to let everyone make trial. He obliged Cinderella to sit down, and putting the slipper to her foot, he found it went on very easily, and fitted her as if it had been made of wax. The astonishment her two sisters were in was excessively great, but still abundantly greater, when Cinderella pulled out of her pocket the other slipper and put it on her foot. Thereupon, in came her godmother, who, having touched her with her wand, Cinderella's clothes, made them richer and more magnificent than any of those she had before.

And now her two sisters found her to be that fine, beautiful lady whom they had seen at the ball. They threw themselves at her feet to beg pardon for all the ill treatment they had made her undergo. Cinderella took them up, and as she embraced them, cried that she forgave them with all her heart, and desired them always to love her. She was conducted to the young prince, dressed as she was, he thought her more charming than ever, and a few days after, married her.

Cinderella, who was no less good than beautiful, gave her two sisters lodgings in the palace, and that very same day matched them with two great lords of the court. And that's the end of the story. So she finds guys for her two stepsisters. She has a house for them, too.

She's taking care of her family. Doesn't mention her dad or her stepmom at the very end. The hockey stepmom? Yes, so, but she's kind of like, again, they have wealth, and they're kind of set up, so they're fine, but no mention of what happens to them at the very end.

But she takes care of her stepsisters. I like that part of the story. And then everyone lives happily ever after. That's Cinderella.

Okay, you all already got me to say the old version, the Greek one that's the story, the Rhodopis one. Or a bird steals someone's foot. Sandal, yeah, just like drops it somewhere. The other version that people will know is the Brothers Grimm one.

AJ, you brought it up before. So the Brothers Grimm version, as I understand it, most other versions of Cinderella don't have the fairy godmother in it. That's kind of like a unique thing to the French version. And in other versions, there's a tree that is planted where Cinderella's mother is buried.

Again, there being so many different versions, sometimes Cinderella's mom is like, the reincarnated is like turned into an animal, or like her spirit's an animal. But probably more often, there's a tree that kind of has the mother's spirit, and that's when Cinderella needs something, she goes to the tree, asks the tree for it, and that's what gives her the dress, the slippers, the carriage. Like, it's still magical, but it's a tree, not a fairy godmother. Does it still have the time decay?

It still has the time decay. It's still a part of it. And so, yeah, in the Brothers Grimm one, same thing, there's a ball, it gets to midnight, she runs away, they have the slipper left over. But all the people who are, the stepsisters in particular, well, I should say, the stepmom wants her daughters to be the queen.

They want her to marry the prince and eventually become queen one day. So she's like, hey, I have an idea. It's going to hurt a lot, but think of all the stuff you're going to get if you become princess and eventually queen. So she chops off parts of their feet.

Have you all heard this version of the story? Yeah. So they chop off parts of the stepsisters' feet to get them to fit into the slipper. And I should say, it's...

Yeah, those games. Well, so in the... We just read a version with glass. This version has golden shoes.

So you'll get different versions of what the shoe is as well. So with her mother standing by, the older one took the shoe in her bedroom to try it on. She could not get her big toe into it, for the shoe was too small for her. Then her mother gave her a knife and said, cut off your toe.

When you are queen, you will no longer have to go on foot. The girl cut off her toe, forced her foot into the shoe, swallowed the pain, and went out to the prince. He took her on his horse as his bride and rode away with her. However, they had to ride past the grave, so the grave of the mother, which has the tree on it, and there on the hazel tree sat two pigeons crying out, Rook-de-goo, Rook-de-goo, there's blood in the shoe.

The shoe is too tight. This bride is not right. Freeding pigeons. That's pigeons.

Meddling. Meddling in international affairs. Like an arc pigeon. So then he looked at her foot and he saw...

Literally small pigeons. And saw blood was running from it. He turned his horse around and took the false bride home again, saying that she was not the right one and that the other sister should try on the shoe. Yeah, bloody weirdo.

That's right. Literally, because she's bleeding from her foot. She went into her bedroom, got her toes into the shoe all right, but... I'm going to wash that shoe out for a second.

It doesn't say that. Just puts the foot in, and the toes fit, but the heel doesn't fit. So the girl cut off a piece of her heel, forced her foot into the shoe, swallowed the pain, and went off with the prince. I feel like that's almost worse than the toe, man.

If I'm going to be honest. Shaving off a chunk of your heel? Ugh. Took her on his horse.

Rats her out this time. As his bride rode away with her when they passed the hazel tree, the two pigeons were sitting in it, and they cried out, Rook-de-goo, Rook-de-goo, there's blood in the shoe. The shoe was too tight. The bride is not right.

It's the exact same thing. He looked down, saw how blood was running out of the shoe, how it stained her. I feel like the second time the prince would have maybe done a little... We probably should have gone back at that point.

I feel like we should have gone back at that point. I feel like we should have done a solid to those pigeons. They've earned their keep in this point. They get to be in the royal aviary.

So they go back. Cinderella's there. Again, we hope they wash out the shoe. Put it back on.

Cinderella's fits perfectly. When she stood up, the prince looked into her face, and he recognized the beautiful girl who advanced with him. He cried out, She is my true bride. The stepmother and the two sisters were horrified and turned pale with anger.

The prince, however, took Cinderella onto his horse and rode away with her. As they passed by the hazel tree, the two pigeons cried out, No blood's in the shoe. The shoe's not too tight. The bride is right.

After they cried this out, they both flew down and lit on Cinderella's shoulders, one on the right, the other on the left, and remained sitting there. When the wedding with the princes was to be held, the two false sisters came, wanting to gain favor with Cinderella and to share her good fortune. When the bridal couple walked into the church, the older sister walked on the right side and the younger on their left, and the pigeons pecked out one eye from each of them. Afterwards, as they came out of the church, the older one was on the left side and the younger one on the right side, and then the pigeons pecked out the other eye from each of them.

And thus, for their wickedness and falsehood, they were punished with blindness as long as they lived. The end. Games are hardcore. I am partial to the French one.

She forgives and loves her sisters. So I'm glad that's the one that is. But I do like the idea of some heavy metal pigeons that are peckin' out eyes as they are. I think in this one, both sisters are meaner than me.

I guess so. I feel like being blind for the rest of your lives, and walking with a limp is pretty tough, but it seems like it should be the mom's fault, not the kids. She gets to keep her eyes. She gets to keep her eyes.

All right, that is Cinderella. Well, that was Cherry. It's a good story. Check it out.

I don't know. Get the Blue Fairy book, man. What do you want me to say? And you've read this to your children?

Yeah, it's part of their curriculum. What's their reaction to the story? What do they glob onto? What's their takeaways?

What have you noticed? I think for a lot of these, they only hear the plot, and there's not really much more to it than, here's a fun story that happened. They are much more struck by Prince Darling, and they love to just talk about the animals that Prince Darling turns into. Not what they mean, not he's being punished for bad acts.

But they do recognize that goodness is rewarded, badness is punished. But just it's the plot of the story that's funny to them. Do you feel like you should tell them a moral, or do you just think at this age, they should just hear the plot and hear the story, have that rattle? around their little souls and then they they realize this as they get older i think they realize as they get older i think it's an andrew kern thing you have to be really careful about moralizing all of these stories for them because then they're not doing that thinking for themselves and um i think the stories are clear enough that they'll get there with that i think we do that with the bible that we're too quick to explain the bible stories to kids as to what they mean what they signify how we should interpret it um and i think there's just a lot of a lot of goodness that comes with just like being very familiar with the story and then sort of then later putting an analytical lens over it but uh explaining things too early i feel like but things why why do you feel what was andrew kern's point as to why i think you need a foundation um before you so you need experience of just being a person in the world i think interpretation is a higher level of thinking and i think it's actually a great thing just in your example of knowing bible stories or in book example of just like knowing lots of stories i think they're profitable beyond whatever moral i would give them off the bat yeah and i think whatever meaning the story will have to them is not the same i would have for them right now i sometimes feel that way like in a class where i'm only gonna get these kids for 36 weeks and we're gonna do six books i kind of feel like we can't just read and appreciate the story like i really do feel like i need to come in and be like given a big interpretation of these kinds of things because i won't get them i won't see them ever again you know i don't get them in class in that same way ever again and i also have a feeling like you worry that somebody else down the line is not going to do a good job in giving a reading and an interpretation of a story but for the books you read is it not enough they've read it they've been exposed to it and i think the books will stick with them like i think about sir gawain because that's one there's a kid's version of sir gawain like my kids are really into but they're into it because of the cutting off of heads not because of the like as well they should be they are young boys um but i think that's enough because the story holds up and one day they'll get bored of cutting off heads and they're still like uh being scared maybe i don't know uh but they're like i'm scared of death and that's not a thing that you should like discredit your entire legacy over yeah they'll be ready for that one day but not at six yeah i think it's interesting it's like do we do too much in an english class or two or not enough in an english class or what age do you start to give those tools of interpretation versus just just receiving isn't most people's problem moving into interpretation too quickly i think so people think english classes my question is like maybe i'm maybe is that our problem is that we move into interpretation too quickly do i spend too much time telling students a way of thinking about paradise lost than just reading the story is it most of your time spent reading a lot of it do they do you tell them this is the point of the story i don't think so not this is the point of the story but um yeah no not like i don't feel like i'm like propagandizing them to like this is the way you need to interpret this do any of them i don't think so because you're usually pretty good about showing that satan is like you know and then he seems cool in the book but like he's pretty pathetic he seems really cool yeah he becomes a snake everybody else in hell become like millipedes and stuff yeah so he's really cool with that first meeting you know seeing all grand regal and then he ends up being a voyeur and then like a secondary prisoner when the guardian angel is like go sit over there man he's like you know who i am they're like whatever go have a seat so i think it's partially i think the only the risk of moralizing is you flatten the story into its moral and maybe this is by the point it's like the stories are good because the story is good not just because of some moral message you get like the example that i have i think of is i remember being a kid reading the story of abraham and i have the binding of isaac and going to sacrifice him just read a story later on having some sort of class where it's like oh but this is a story of talking about like it's a precursor for christ or so you know all these sort of things you get some kind of interpretive reading of it a moral either moral reading or theological reading and then you go and you read somebody like kierkegaard and kierkegaard gives you like an absolutely other total other framework to think about the story and i don't think he's wrong in framing about that story and the story becomes like sort of deeper and richer the story becomes deeper and richer the more the less the the simple moral breaks down like when if you just turn something into an easy little moral uh maybe that's good when you're 12 or 15 but then when you like reread it again at 26 and you're like this this that moral doesn't isn't doesn't contain everything that's in the story uh and you realize that it's much more rich than that i don't know i like that yeah all right okay well this has been classical stuff you should know please write a one sentence moral for this podcast and attach it to a five-star review you can do that um tell us what the moral of the aj's sexist i will lose my heart tell us what the moral of our podcast it's a five-star review it's fine yeah conflate us into one piffy saying yeah um you can email us at theguysclassicalstuff.net you can patronize us on patreon where we do monthly amas in-betweens um you can ask the oracle to tell you it's oracular things with the oracle responded 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