How long is this episode of Impossible Podcast with Joel Runyon?

This episode is 1 hour and 51 minutes long.

When was this Impossible Podcast with Joel Runyon episode published?

This episode was published on December 14, 2017.

Is there a transcript available for this episode?

Yes, a full transcript is available for this episode. You can read the complete transcript on the episode page.

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3: Mike Wardian - Impossible Podcast with Joel…

Hey everybody welcome back to the show today's show is brought to you by impossible gear if you're looking to push your limits and do something impossible That's on your impossible list. I don't know where to impossible gear calm to get your shirt They look awesome. They feel great anyone who's ever worn it before knows that you immediately learn part horror and get 50% better looking That's not a guarantee or as well as let us say it's a guarantee, but sort of a guarantee If you guys are looking for the best way to get comfortable while being and doing something uncomfortable impossible gear is the best way to go So go on over check out impossible gear calm get a shirt and when you do go do something impossible Just watching Netflix go actually do something impossible and take a photo and send it in and I'd love to feature you on the site Alright, cool. Today's guest is Michael Wardian.

This guy is a monster I met him in Antarctica while he was setting a world record down there for marathons. That's the starting point He's one of the most prolific runners out there. He's run over 50 races this year including the Antarctica ice marathon The Barclays marathon and the hard rock 100 on top of this He's a full-time job as a shiproker. He has a family two kids and a dog So if you're thinking you have excuses this episode, we'll take them away from you, okay?

I really enjoyed this episode of Mike. He's super down to earth If you didn't know he was super good at running marathons You just think he's some really nice neighborly guy with really long hair and a big red beard So that's about it for the intro. I think you're gonna. Join this one.

Let's get it Alright, and we're live today's guest is Mike Wardian. He's a shiproker a world traveler And he might be the most prolific ultra runner out there today Mike welcome to the show Hey, man. How are you great to be on? Thanks for thanks for making the time and overcoming the technical difficulties to to let us talk Well, it's been one of the more interesting interviews I've had the schedule because I feel I was telling you before the show I I feel like I travel a lot and I feel like I run a lot of different places and you sir You you put me to shame badly.

I was going through your race schedule this year and off your website And I don't know if this is fully up to date. I counted it is not okay So I counted 34 races that were on the schedule for this year. Do you know if that's the correct number? No, it's not I've just finished my 50th race of the year this past weekend.

Geez Yeah, man, it's crazy. I were only 50 like what 49 weeks of the year? Yeah, I finished it was my 50th race and it was my 20th marathon So this year yeah, so for context most serious marathoners will run Two or three big races a year where they're like training up for it getting ready for it and then trying to perform at their peak And I think what's insane about what you do is The sheer number of races is one thing but then also the types of races you do because you do everything from Ultra marathons under case to like a you'll bounce her back into a 5k the next day or something like that Yeah, I was I was going through just to give people a brief This is a very short snapshot of your resume We actually met in Antarctica when you're doing the your own little 777 thing with Richard Donovan who's the race director But you're doing seven marathons on seven continents in seven days with a group the same time that we were down in Antarctica doing the 100k Ultra later on you also did the Barkley marathons which is the number one marathon that people keep asking about if I've done and I always bring up you and say my buddy Mike is super fast and He runs all the time and he made you know, how many loops did you get out of the five? I got none you got no one I got well, I made it around but I didn't make it in time so it doesn't count for anything so I got no loops I got no loops.

Yeah, don't get lost If you if you want to make it don't get lost and don't make a mistake every time you have a chance to if there's a 50-50 chance to Make a mistake. I made every single wrong choice. It was like against all odds. Okay, so we'll have to get into that for sure Oh, yeah, but on top of that you ran the gobi Desert marathon, which is a 400k race And you have all sorts of records running with a stroller running as Elvis all sorts of things so the Crazy oh, so basically let's just get into your story a little bit because I want to hear you did it start running till after college And I want to know what transforms a normal person as normal as you can be into someone who's running 50 merid You know 50 races a year all sorts of types of races Crazy distances really hard difficult things that are even hard to get into how did you get into running?

Where did that start and you know Where was the genesis of all this? Yeah, I mean, I think that's a great place to start For people that don't know my story I was La Crosse player growing up so I played the division one La Crosse at Michigan State University Was an attack man. So kind of not the typical guy that likes to run all over But I I was always pretty good at it like if we had to do like a training run for La Crosse, you know We had to run six minute mile I think my in my high school and I was one of the fastest guys to be able to do that But just kind of did it to stay fit for La Crosse and didn't really discover my passion for running until it really wasn't even something that I thought it would be Something just to say fit when it's not playing La Crosse and kind of just picked it up Because I like to go out and have a good time with friends and just you know kind of wanted to keep the weight off and and I was used to being an athlete so you were when you're playing at that kind of Level, you know, you're used to working out like four or five hours a day and it felt pretty easy Don't only have to go out and run for an hour or something and you know, it was like wow This is this is pretty awesome like you get such a big benefit for such a short investment of time and Obviously as I progressed in running I realized that you know running is like a full 24 hours a day type of Commitment and there's really no off time if you want to be at the upper levels But when it first started, you know, it was like 45 minutes and you're all good and it's super cheap Like I was really poor and didn't really have Didn't have a you know, just typical college kid, you know, didn't have a lot of money and so it was something I could get into and Keep keep fit and stay active and then I my buddy I'm Vince voice and he was in I was in a fraternity also at Michigan State by Kappa Alpha and Went home with him for Easter one year And his mom had just finished the Boston Marathon and it was the first time I'd met anybody that That was a marathon runner that didn't look like, you know, you and I now right like super, you know chiseled and kind of grizzly and Seasoned, you know, and she just was like that's just Vince's mom and it gave me like it was like she's just a regular lady It was like but she was you know, she was powerful She'd run a bunch of marathons and she had her, you know, finishers medal and I remember seeing that unicorn for the Boston If you guys haven't ever seen it It's a really cool looking metal and it was like, you know shiny metal and tin like a One of those space blankets She had like at her house and it was just like his mom can do it. I can totally do that and It was you know, because when you see it on TV, it's only the guy they only ever show you the guy in the front It's really, you know, he's like a skeleton basically, right?

So like I was like, oh, that's you know, that guy You know, you have to be from Kenya in order with a race Well, yeah, we're like even when I was growing up and it was like wild world of sports and you'd see someone like that I know now like and Trason or something, you know, they're just like hardcore, you know, and it's fun You know, I'm friends with all those people now and I know they're just real people, you know, but when when you're you're seeing it from A foreign through the media, you don't realize that, you know, there are You know, 50,000 people behind that person across the line and a lot of the people are just regular regular people and and they do this because they love it And they're not professional and so it gave me the inspiration to think that I could maybe just maybe if I trained for it do it myself And so I decided that day that I wanted to run the Boston Marathon and that's changed the course of my life like I trained for it I Didn't realize that you actually had to qualify for the Boston Marathon if your audience doesn't know you do And so this was in the 90s, you know, before you could just apply online So I sent away a self-addressed dump envelope to the BAA and I got back in the little pamphlet, you know, like you get a handout like kind of if you're like at an expo or something and Said like, you know, you know, put your name I filled it all out and then I got to the part where it said like, you know, put in your qualifying time and I was like wait, what? I don't want to I don't want to I don't want to run any other marathon I went I wanted to run the yeah, I want to run the Boston Marathon and then at that point I was like, oh, good So then I was like, well, if I'm gonna run another marathon I should do it somewhere if something doesn't go well. I was living in DC at that point and I Well, I was actually at school at that point when I decided but then I moved back to DC after I started training for it and got the envelope and everything and Signed up for the Marine Corps marathon This was still before like, you know, you had to sign up like three years ahead of these races Like you could kind of just sign up like, you know, whenever and you could get in and now It's like a whole skill set just to be able to get into some of the marathons Like you're saying are some of the races in general like there's a whole, you know, you have to do a pledging system or something So now I signed up and I qualified on my first go like I knew I had to run under three hours and ten minutes and I was lucky enough to come in in three hours And I think six or eight minutes so a couple minutes ahead And then I decided that I would run Boston and I decided at that point that I would try to break three hours because I was pretty close And you know all the people that I read about, you know You become a real runner in my head for some reason if you run sub three hours and I ran I ran two hours and 54 minutes at Boston And I just got hooked. Yeah, I just like the energy if you don't you run Boston?

I have not read Boston, but yeah, I wanted it. I want to actually watch how old are you when you did that? I was a 1997 so I was 23 I think okay, so you just went out and ran it and People that have trained for like five years 10 years You have to like get ready and so like you just kind of did you know that you were like you had a Way from like you training hard, but no, yeah through through lacrosse and everything like there's people that like training for years and years To finally qualify for Boston and you're like, oh, yeah, I'm gonna just give this a shot Did you realize pretty way pretty quickly that you were like oh, I got some skills here I can I can I can do pretty well Yes, and no like I think yes, I knew that I had the skill set to be able to train And that but I wasn't training a ton I was training maybe like 45 50 miles a week Which felt like a lot going from nothing and I thought like this is this is crazy and then when I ran the 254 I realized like wow, I mean I I was talking to other guys and like my goal really at that point was there was a local Running team here called the Pacers running club and after I ran the 254 for For Boston I decided that I wanted to make that team and so that was like my first goal And that's kind of how I think it's progressed for me is I just keep setting these more and more ridiculous challenges for myself And the next challenge was to qualify for the for the Pacers running club and to do that You know after I ran the 254 I thought it was a big deal, right? And so I go into the local yeah, I did and I was like oh yeah look at me You know sub three and then I went to the local running store And of course now knowing what I know is like those stores are just hubs for like just badasses, right?

So like you know everybody in there from the guy that's you know Just come out of college or whatever is super fast and and really knowledgeable And you know you walk in and you're like oh I ran 254 and they're all like just start laughing You know they're holding back their laughs like you know like come on man like that's like I remember when I ran my first Yeah, yeah, it's like you know it's it's good It's definitely a good time and you know there's some days where I take a 254 for sure You know including like this past weekend I was like wow I don't know if I'll break three hours, but There's um there's a different level and so like it was they were kind enough to be like you know didn't laugh me out of the store And we're like yeah, yeah, you know you're not really fast enough to make the team now But you know we have this track workout once a week and you know It's a great way to get faster and so I just started going in and I think that's the nice thing about running is it doesn't really care Who you are or what you've done in the past if you're willing to make a commitment to it and to put the time in like It's a pretty straightforward progression as long as you don't get injured so if you if you can do the training and you can handle the distance and the pacing and You know I would I would be afraid to go on some of the group runs with the guys just because they were such badasses And you know but I would go and just try to hang on and eventually you know You're hanging on and then eventually you're in the front group and then eventually you're the guy that everyone's trying to hang on and You know and I think that's what's so cool about it is There's hope for everyone you know I didn't expect to to be doing what I'm doing now Like I never had a desire to be a professional athlete in running like I wanted to play lacrosse and Just kind of got into this by chance But then I found out how much I loved it and I loved it The ability to see a direct correlation between the amount of work you do and the kind of results you get and also There's the opportunity to travel like that's something that's always been one of my passions and to be able to combine that with The physical activity and being able to explore under your own kind of kinetic power is something that I just relish And I think that's one of my favorite things in the world is jumping off a plane putting on a parachute is just going out and kind of Learning about where you are without anyone else like acting as a filter for that Like when you're running no one gives you a no one knows if you're American or Kenyan or Canadian or or Russian really I mean there you fall into a different category All of a sudden you just become part of the the fabric of wherever you are and you get to see stuff You never get to see under other circumstances when you're in a car even on a bike you're kind of separated Yeah, you're down in it. You're just part of it and you kind of get to see a glimpse behind the curtain and I love that There's a there's a piece to the the the reason I I Gravitated so much towards running my stories a little bit similar in the way that wasn't doing other athletic activities and I ran out of things I do after after college and The simplicity what do you into I mean I yeah, I did I did a basketball for a while And then I did all my friends around the track and field team But I didn't want to run because I didn't like running and so I threw javelin I don't know why that's cool. Yeah, so but I specifically did it like running for a long time I didn't run I don't think more than a 5k and so I was like 23 24 and but being able to the No excuses aspect of running where it's like oh you just have to have your shoes and you need to go outside and keep going and then the progression Ability of the sport where you can just say okay? I'm gonna run one mile like anyone can approach it they say I'm gonna run one mile you can run a 5k Then you can run a 10k they can run a half marathon marathon altros and you really goes it starts to Once you start looking into ultra as you go as far as you want like there's you think oh you ran a hundred mile Okay, there's a you know a seven-day race that you can do like it it it's pretty much infinitely Expandable and that's one of the things I like about it because I didn't have to start off with these huge Ultramarathon goals I started off with like trying to run a 5k and then it grew from there and We have a little bit different backgrounds, but it's funny to see the same connections come out Oh for sure man, and that's what's so cool about it like really it is like and what's so interesting too And you probably get this is like when you first start out like you're like that's like I started out when I'm gonna run a marathon But like most people you just start out you just want to run around the track ones right and that's like so powerful right like I remember the first time like I ran around the track and like was in control like you know the difference right like you're not you're Like I could go further like that is so powerful like and I remember like the first time I ran a 50 Mylar I was like never do that again.

That was crazy crazy Right and then and then you like something clicks and you're like but I could maybe do more and then you run a hundred Mylar and you're like wow like I can't believe I just did that that's that's insane like that you know you Under your own power like we're able to cover that distance and then you're like you realize it's just archery like there's a hundred Miles like it could be a hundred and five miles and then all of a sudden you're like I like this year like doing that 400k Like that was like so outside of what I thought was possible And then I realized as I was doing it like I was suffering I you know had some food issues and actually like I've had kind of some stomach issues all year, but they were super Consolidated and just right at the surface that whole time and I just suffered for five days But it made me realize like I can't do so much more than I thought I could and I'm capable of so much more like why Why have I been limiting myself and I feel like the same thing like when we're in Antarctica like you have this idea in your head like Antarctica is so unforgiving and it really is but if you're prepared like those guys crossing it like those British guys that we met like Like I still want to do that now and I never thought like I never thought like I Had a I've been always afraid of them I just don't like the cold like it doesn't it's not something I love like some people really like it and after doing that In that life force myself to do the North Pole marathon in 2014 and after doing that and realizing you know that I can excel It's like open up a whole nother part of the world and another a bunch more challenges And so that's something where I was just like why did I it's almost you know when you're avoiding something You know you're procrastinating doing something and then you do it and you're like why did why was that such a big deal and You know so I find that you know There's there's so much that we're capable of and a lot of times like the biggest limiting factor for us achieving stuff is our own Idea of what it's gonna be like and a lot of times that doesn't actually match with the reality and even if it does You know we're more capable than we think we are yeah the two things there though one when you said you were in You know the 400k and you were suffering and a lot of times you think okay suffering is terrible It's not fun. You're some issues, you know your feet your knee everything hurts But you also realize you can suffer like you can bear it like you can bear it you can bear that type of pain and There's something that I don't I don't know if it's like a sadistic thing in me or what but there's something about knowing That you can handle the suffering when it comes that is really reassuring and helpful both in other races as reference points And just in other things in life because you're like you know that you can take it You know you can take a beating and it's kind of sucking you're gonna be sore and tired afterwards But you don't get back up and you survive that and you keep doing something else Completely yeah, and it really it translates to everything like you're saying I mean it's like you can use that and what I love about having the fitness that we you that you gain and that kind of Mental fortitude also is it applies like you know We had our youngest son has epilepsy and and like just knowing that that I have the ability to stay up for like five nights in a row Like like without sleep like I realize like you know There's you know people worry about you know getting eight hours or whatever like you and I know like you can function and I think this is what you know you see some of the military services like people and You can function on two hours you can function on ten minutes Sleep, you know you can you can do incredible things if you're forced to do it But most of us don't ever go outside of what is normal and know what we're capable of and so that's something that you can use You know to be able to make the hundredth call to the next client You know if you need to do that and give you the fortitude to withstand the tongue lashing if you do something wrong and to apply it to all aspects of your life and that's and I think that's so awesome like we have like this incredible amount of fitness But you can use it for whatever you want, you know and that's I don't know super powerful to me I I want to touch on the other thing that happens when you get yourself out in the situations You find okay I'm capable a lot more than I thought I was but I think I'm like out here on my limit And then I look around and then there's a bunch of other people that are like killing it way better than me And you mentioned the guys that we met an arctic and I just want to tell the story real quick You can correct me if I'm off on this but while we were down at Union Glacier Which is sort of the adventure hub for an article about 500 miles outside the South Pole? There was a group of British like a British expedition that walked Once from one side of Antarctica to the South Pole to the other side of Antarctica and it took them I want to say like 90 days or something like that. It was yeah, it was a little less I think okay, it was still a long time.

I think it was for some reason my head It was like 68 days or something, but it was a long time like long enough where it's not a joke Like you're not you're not like just zipping through like you're out there And so they're just like out there for days Self-supported all that and then they come back to camp I want to say the day of day before the marathon day before it's on and then yeah three of the guys I believe it was three. They said yeah, we just walked across Antarctica Let's let's just run this marathon too. And then I want to say two of them ran like sub 330 marathons They did well and one of them at least one of them broke the old course record Yeah, if you wouldn't have been there you would have got the course record no the dude Yeah, if we wouldn't have been there like I think it was myself and then the triathlete and then The Canadian and then I think one of the guys was fourth and he like borrowed shoes Like I'm not sure if you borrow my shoes or somebody shoes like cuz his stuff was all trash Like it was one of the most incredibly cool things I've ever seen and that's just one of those things like you think You know, I'll tell people I ran like an ultra marathon in arca And they're like whoa and like you don't understand like the things that when you go to those places You find people that are doing way more than you think that like that I think I could ever do and just seeing those guys do that like on a whim They didn't even know the marathon was going they just kind of like yeah sure well give it a shot. See how it goes That's my like the ones do's knows it was like about to fall off like it looks really bad I mean he was well deserved to like in what was so cool And you probably saw this is like when those guys come back from one of those expeditions like they have like a huge like Meal for him because they've been eating like out of their out of their bags for like, you know two and a half months And they have like you know candle light dinner and wine and can't and like you know fresh vegetables and fruit and Like those guys had me, you know if it was me They probably have like you know what you know big mushrooms or something like whatever you like basically like your dream Like your last supper, right?

So this guy could have just eaten that last supper and then like when the You know starting time was coming just like I'm just gonna roll back over like I've had to break camp for 60 some days I'm kind of done with that You know I'm just gonna sleep in a little more maybe get some all you can eat breakfast place edlers of katana Just call it a day, right and no those guys busted out and just crushed it It was so impressive to me and that goes back to what you said earlier about everything being arbitrary, you know like these distances that people put on themselves are these these limits that you think you have it's just it's Who says a marathon is the perfect distance that you need to train for who says like 26.2 or 42 kilometers is exactly the distance You need to do right, you know who says you can't stay up for five days or 400 kilometers or go far than that and That's the thing that's kind of just blow my mind about ultra running it It's I don't think I ever got drawn into marathons as much I think the crowds and the people and that never appeal to me as much as the When I started looking at like the ultra marathon community of like these small group of crazy people with long beards and long hair That are just running off in the wilderness and like I'll figure out how to get home You know like something about that aspect of moving yourself through your environment Like you said with your own kinetic energy is really appealing and just knowing that you're capable of like experiencing the world In a way that you can't do in a car in a helicopter in a plane and a you know anything Well, yeah, and you go to places when you do those type of events and it could be you know It could be in the woods But I mean you can do an altar like I'm done 50 days On indoor 200 meter tracks and they used to way back in the day like in the early late 1800s early 1900s early 1900s I used to have like these multi-day races that people would come and bet on and like Madison Square Garden and like there's like these crazy Bunyan challenges where they'd go from New York to like DC and give out like huge prize for like $50,000 or something like crazy like that's like great money now for like, you know a big time marathon I think that's even more money than you get at Berlin marathon if you win like it's insane and like people have been doing this stuff Like well long long time just to see if they could and I think that that that sense of adventure like and you know It's not just the you know the guys that live in the mountains with the long hair in the beard But like there's so many ladies like I'm that a bunch of awesome people in Huntsville, Alabama this Weekend that are all ultra runners and they do a 50k and they have like this quadruple challenge and like they're just regular ladies and guys and like Like that's what's so cool about it. It's so accessible to everyone and it's it's this Amazing community to once you're into it I mean I think the running community in general is pretty fantastic And but then there's all these little niches that you can get yourself into and I feel super fortunate that I can kind of toggle Between the road runners and the trail runners and get a sense of what everyone's up to and that's I think really really Inspiring to me is like just to see like you know just regular people going out and doing extraordinary things Like it happens so often and there's so many people that you don't even hear about that are doing just insane Sanely cool things so where did how did you get introduced into the ultra running world? So you started off with Boston and you did Boston and then did you just do marathon for a while before you started like No, no, do you have to have something that takes you from we'll talk about like the work run balance that you've got Because I think that's also a really interesting part of your story But where was the evolution from running Boston and getting that 254 to okay adding You know a couple races a year to adding you know a few more to adding 50 races a year plus on a regular basis Yeah, I mean I think well it was actually kind of interesting because the The thing about it was is I was like oh I ran Boston Okay, that was my goal and then I kind of fell in love with it, right? I was like, this is amazing like I want to get that feeling and so I started doing a bunch more races and I Realize like pretty quickly.

I was like I should just do all the big races now while I have this training like in case I want to do something else and so I did I signed up for again This was before you had to like put in you know five years before but I did the Chicago marathon because I was like I'm gonna do all the biggest races in the US and at that time like in the 90s You know Chicago marathon was a big race and then New York City I was like I'll do all the big city marathons So I did Chicago and then in New York was like a month later And then I was like well I got to do Marine Corps again because you know I can do better there now And so then that was three marathons in four weeks and by that point I had actually earned a spot on the Pacers running point team like I Cheaped that goal and then my next goal was like okay Well, I'm gonna try to do all the big races and so I did you know I did Chicago and then got a little bit faster and then I did Marine Corps and got a little bit faster And then I did New York and was getting even a little bit faster And like I remember like I was telling the guys that I trained with and I was gonna do this and you know like This is still you were saying at the beginning of the show like you know Most people just trained for one or two races a year Maybe you know three or four if they're feeling really frisky and and yeah This was and you know, that's probably I mean if you're gonna be a pro That's probably the right way because you know if you're you know getting a big appearance fee or something and you know They say you can't run, you know six weeks leading up to our race anything longer than XYZ like in you're kind of you know Maximize your your income, which it makes sense like you got to kind of do and what people prescribe But you know for me, I was no one cared what I was doing and I just wanted to do what I wanted to do and so I Was told by everyone, you know, you're gonna you get broken and and so it just made me want to do it even more Just to show people that you know that it is possible and like I didn't know I had no idea and I still don't know and you know, you know Maybe 50 races is too much, you know, I Know but it's I still I don't want to miss anything and I don't want to Look back and say, you know I had a chance to go to Kosovo or I had the opportunity to explore you know Australia or to be a part of Western States or to do the hard rock hundred miler or you know to run Leadville and Pike's Peak the same weekend to try to set the record or you know be a part of the quad marathon or you know Run a marathon in Fenway Park like I did this year, you know I don't I don't want to miss anything and and you know and I didn't then either and but I didn't know what I was capable of And I'm still trying to find that out now But I mean when I first started I did all those races and I felt stronger each one and then my dad and I went to this talk At the running store cuz I was super geeky now like I was reading everything like Lydia and Jack Daniels and George she-han and like running with the buffaloes came out like in that era and I was just like I just turned all my attention to you know running and endurance and I went to this talk and it's really cool you might Know this guy. He's a really influential guy his name Scott Mills And he used to have a store here in the DC area It was I believe a fleet feet in Springfield in this little strip mall And he was talking about the JFK 50-mileer and I was like what It was like the same thing when my friend's mom said like she ran a marathon It was like I didn't even know that people could run that far and I didn't know it was allowed No, no exactly no, that's exactly right. I was like wait You can run further than a marathon that is insane and then I didn't believe it I was like that is not true like that like it is not possible And I don't know why I just I just had this like realization that it's not true And then I thought like he told me the times that they were running to win It was like they're like oh you got to run about six hours and ten minutes And I was like well if you just take my marathon time and you double it like that's like five hours Like I should crush this like I'm going to like destroy these guys like and so I signed up for the JFK 50-mileer thinking I was gonna win and And and really like just having this Ridiculous idea in my head that it was just two marathons like you just doing back to back and I've been doing you know Pretty well like a week or so apart right so I was like well, you know, it's just you just run them. You know the same day I think what's the big deal about that little yeah, I didn't know You know it's one of those things where you are quickly shown the ignorance of your ways and I Did not win I think I ran I ran like seven and a half or eight hour eight and a half hours And I thought I was gonna die like at mile 32 that was the furthest I'd ever run and I felt terrible I wasn't able to eat I was getting passed by these guys that were doing like the Galloway like run walking So like and I was refusing to walk because I'm not a well.

I'm not a walker I'm a runner right and so you know all the typical stuff, you know that just That you just have You know I have to go through that you have to experience because I fire yeah It's just one of those things where and I'm so glad that happened because that's really what you need when you're when you're Overconfident you need to be humbled and and it was great, you know I got I got destroyed, but I still you know I was resilient and I stayed with it and I made it and I Decided you know I at that point I decided during that race that I wanted to explore triathlon and I'd always wanted to do an iron Man and you know after doing 50 miles. I thought well, you know I can I can do that so the next couple years I did some string print triathlons and then eventually did iron man Lake Placid in 1999 and finish that and then Then a couple you know I was still doing marathons over that time actually quite a bunch of marathons and Got somebody in my buddy actually Todd Cohen told me about a race called marathon to solve in the Sahara desert And I started saving up all my money until it was really expensive like for me Yeah as a young guy it was like twenty five hundred dollar entry fee plus you had to get to Morocco and so you had to you know save up for flights and You know I didn't have any I didn't have any sponsors really besides Pacers and you know they were able to help a little bit You know it's just a local team right so like they don't have like you know It's not like you're getting sponsored by you know I'm lucky and that's you know big sponsors now like you know Hoka on a on a and T mobile You know a bunch of different people that are supporting me now But at that point like you're just trying to get by and you know so I took to Two and a half years to save up the money and then also like to save up the vacation time from work Just to make sure that I was gonna be able to you know be gone for that amount of time And then I went and I just kind of did unbelievably well like I was Each day I got stronger and I kind of fell in love with the running and I think at that point I was twenty five so I was one of the youngest guys at the race I think it was me and a Danish guy that were the two youngest guys and actually had my birthday during the race I turned twenty five during the race I think I was actually one of the young I think I was the youngest guy there and just kind of ended up first American And I think twenty fifth overall and that's when I decided that you know I kind of pursue this and really see what I was capable of and I was lucky enough to meet I don't know if you know Lisa and Jay Batchen or not, but no, she's she's a super cool She had won marathon to sob and she she actually wanted to help coach me and so for about a year or so she coached me and I did my first hundred mylar in 2001 and then did the hundred K National championships and it was pretty cool because it was like Scott Eurek was there and Mark Go Dale and Ian Torrance and a bunch of just like these old-school badasses now But we were all just kind of young guys coming up at that point and kind of got involved a little bit more with that and then in 2001 I was doing a race in the Himalayas called a Himalayan 100 mile stage race and Decided that I wanted to try qualified for the Olympic trials in the marathon And so I went back to just doing a lot more road marathons and eventually got my 2004 qualifier for the Olympic trials in the marathon and then 2008 and 2000 and 2004 2008 2012 I qualified for the Olympic trials in the marathon and that was something that I Was really proud of and was kind of launched me into this next day where I started you know trying to make the 50k world team and then represent the US and the 100k world team and you know Did that for a bunch of years and now I'm at the point where I'm just like Getting to go around and compete all over the place and still kind of trying to figure out, you know exactly You know how far I can go and what I'm capable of yeah Yeah, so one thing that we haven't touched on quite yet is most people here you say something like okay, you know I've been you know like running 20 some years been doing all these races all over the world while you just either You have a rich uncle You just have way too much money money like must be nice to just have all this money You know how do you get all this free time like if you're doing a race in a different country every week Are you doing this and right the thing that I like I think I might like this the most about your story is that You you have a full-time job and you do all this is that like that's true. I'll let you tell the story, but You do this all while having a full-time job. This isn't like like you have sponsors you have people that are you know I help you with some of the races and stuff, but you have a you have a job like a normal person.

Yeah, yeah I work a full-time as an international shipbroker and we represent US in foreign flag ocean going carriers doing humanitarian food a cargo, so yeah, we are Full service 24 hours a day seven days a week. We're dealing with people like all over the world So, you know we get calls from Denmark and Ethiopia and work with guys in India and here in the US and it's amazing I've been super lucky. I got into it when I was in high school as like an intern and Came in as a basically like secretary type administrative assistant and was able to kind of apprenticeship here and work my way up to being one of the guys that's Brokeering the vessels and kind of working with the owner directly and Lucky now my sister works here too. And so yeah, it's it's pretty awesome It's like one of the best things I've ever done and I can't believe how fortunate I am to like have found something that I really love and That can also accommodate me being able to do it almost anywhere in the world Especially now like when I first started it was a lot more difficult But with technology and you know this too from as much travel as you do It's like as long as you have Wi-Fi you can be kind of really interconnected and kind of almost be you know I'll be in the French Alps, you know getting ready for UTMB or something at our cafe and I can be on my computer at the office and kind of deal with stuff And you know I'm lucky to have a deal with T-Mobile so they're keeping me connected Like I was able to make calls and do stuff I was in the middle of the 400k in the desert, so like it's it's pretty crazy how Small the world can be now with technology and and then the other thing is like you know We also have two two young kids so we have a 11-year-old and a almost nine-year-old So grand will be nine next weekend or this upcoming weekend I guess so he's super excited because his birthday falls on the same weekend is opening week of Star Wars So, you know it always it always seems like the Star Wars movie comes out So he's pretty excited about that so yeah, those those two guys keep us really busy and luckily I think with one of the great things is with the traveling the running is they've been able to explore a lot of the world with us So they've already been to four five continents and sixteen or seventeen countries already, so it's pretty Yeah, it's pretty it's much better I mean I I'd only been you know not very many places when I was you know 18 19 So they're catching catching the travel bug early and you know it's something that's important to them and hopefully we can continue to You know get to share the world with them through through my adventures and through that kind of you know dual sense of Exploration that we've been able to kind of cultivate with so quick plug for your your team mobile sponsor I'm not sponsored by them, but I have their foot like I switched them a few years ago And if anybody like any US people travel abroad there They're all like unlimited data plans amazing because they give you unlimited unlimited data and texting internationally It's like slow.

It's like 3g or whatever but from like a like traveling abroad and like not having to you know Wait in the airport for 30 minutes to get a sim card. Yes, it's a game changer. So it is pretty ridiculously awesome. Yeah, and free plug Like yeah, they're thanks man.

Yeah, they're really cool too and like I don't know if you know John like the CEO But he's just such a cool guy too. He's always out there doing crazy awesome stuff and he's a big runner himself So it's it's so cool to just you know be involved with a company that you know It's kind of being innovative and then also it seems like they really appreciate their customer base You know and just do like small things like I don't know if you ever gotten the free internet like they do on the flight Sometimes you're like a free one hour on the American. Yeah, exactly like a wingman thing like you're like like that would have been like eight bucks Like if you know, you know whoever had their way, you know So it's you know just small little things that make a big difference. That's cool The so as far as getting back to your job as far as like position yourself in a place where you're able to run and Work at the same time.

How did you pull that off because like on one level? It's okay the money's the money and the sponsors help with that But for a lot of people it's like the time off or getting away from the job or being able to do it remotely you have any like either one suggestion on how you get it or like how other people can kind of approach their job so they have the They have that pathway with the boss to be like, hey, listen, I really want to do this thing It's important me and I'm getting stuff done no matter what Yeah, I mean, I think that's the biggest thing is like making sure that you can still accomplish what you need to have done Don and you can do it from wherever you are and I mean it becomes harder if you're doing like, you know a seven-day stage race Like you that's when you got to you know find someone that can kind of cover your your your your responsibilities for that amount of time But you know if you're just going to run a hundred miler or not just but you know if you're if you're if you're gonna do something Like where you're just gonna be out of service for a day or two like it I think becomes much more manageable and I think like having that Frank conversation with people about what you're trying to achieve I think that's one of the biggest things I've done is I've been really transparent with you know These are these are some of the big things that I want to do and and to be able to accomplish that I'm gonna need some help and I think that that's that's something that was surprising to me is how I have been able to be really fortunate to have people that I work with that are friends and then also kind of co-conspirators or Fans of what I'm trying to accomplish and so that you get a lot of more buy-in and I think a lot more leniency when you are Saying like hey, this is really important to me And you know I to be able to do it I might need you know you guys to be able to help me out and I think that that's something where people will step up and kind of You'd be surprised how many people are willing to help you when they know that you want to do something and they find it really cool I mean like I'll come back each weekend and you know someone Someone I'm working with and you know USA ID or USDA or one of the suppliers we work with or one of our owners will you know Typically you know ask or you know, I have a bunch of them that follow me on social media now So they'll be like oh, I saw you're in you know Huntsville or I saw you were in China or whatever and so like just making making it public like what you want to do and then asking for help and you'll be surprised at You know how many people will want to help support you do? Something incredible and I think you've probably found that too in your travels like you probably never thought you would be able to do what you're doing or at least I never like envision this and and people like I think they see that you have this vision and determination and you know the word passion gets thrown around a lot these days but I mean I think that's what it comes down to is like they see this motivation and and It's something that's inspiring and if they can help you up harder that then they become part of your team and they're invested too And I think trying to get that kind of involvement with people and You know most people most people see that see this kind of stuff They might see it as crazy, but they also they respect it and they they want to Or at least I found her I've been lucky to find that they want to they want to help you achieve something like especially if you know It's something that you know is is a big deal and and you may get such like I think that people people will be able to Yeah, so yeah, what one of the things I found and this is almost a little bit counterintuitive was I was always a little bit Like hesitant sometimes to tell people exactly, you know The the bigness or of what I wanted to do because I thought it would be I Didn't know if they would be okay with it I didn't know if they would shut down I don't know if they would get annoyed or jealous or whatever And I think there is some segment of people that you know if you try to tell them what you want to do They're just gonna be like no you shouldn't do that that's dumb and that's gonna be a certain percentage of people no matter what Yeah, but there's No, no, but there's a certain segment of people that as soon as you like if you tell them what you want to do and there's a Bigness to it. They're almost becomes easier for them to back you and it's it's really interesting to see Just having the courage to tell other people what you're trying to accomplish that helps people and ideas and things to start organizing themselves to kind of help you do that and I was really surprised how How much people were willing to go out of the way to help me do something that I thought okay This is for me But I think a lot of people are looking for that excitement that story that intrigue From whatever you're trying to do and then the cool thing is when it trickles down to their own lives And you see them go from okay, I'm not just asking you about you know your races But like hey Joel I just signed up for you know my first, you know 10k or half marathon or something like that Yeah, it's cool it's amazing how many people you can touch right like and especially now with like social media and whatnot like I feel like there's a really big sense of connectivity between all of us and You can find it like you just look at your phone every day I'm inspired and like just in awe of what is possible And I love that and I and I hope that you know what you're doing it continues to inspire people and you know I hope what I'm doing in is the same way and and And I love the fact that that we all have a chance to be involved with what everyone else is doing No, it's it's really incredible once you start like putting out there the things that you want to do what How how just talking about it and writing it down and telling people about it can help start organizing things to actually make that happen Yeah, exactly and you know you will and I think what I was gonna chime in when you were talking and in the point that kind of resonated with me Is there is always gonna be people that'll sell you you're not gonna be able to do it like that is just goes without saying and and it'll be people that you really care about too and and a lot of time like at first it was my mom like she was Really and it doesn't come from a place of you know malice or jealousy or anything like that It's just a place of like they're just worried You know it just comes from a place of like you're their baby or your their friend or you know They don't want to see you be disappointed and it's a lot of times it's not Anything malicious.

It's just you know people trying to protect you from you know Maybe overreaching or something like that and I think that that it's just something sometimes you have to just kind of Overcome like it's it's just part of the process like and I know that now and but it was hard at first you know because you you don't know and you're kind of not confident in what you're capable of and and you know I still have those feeling sometimes and but and The people don't mean anything by it But you just have to know that there is gonna be that or at least I found that and I don't know if you can speak to that too But I found that you know that people are traditionally pretty conservative Depending on what circles you're in and it doesn't it doesn't mean you shouldn't do it And I think that hopefully and each time you are able to do it and expands their horizons too, right? And so like that's what's so cool about it is like And they become part of the circle of This expansion right so like you know my parents will say like oh my son's running a hundred miles and then they'll be like what? Like their friend or their person they're talking to is like that wait you can run that far and they're like Oh, yeah, you know he does it all the time now or like you see a trickle down like my sister She's a really good athlete too And she's just run you know probably her third or fourth marathon this year and she's run a 50-mileer and like I'm sure when she First thought about doing that kind of stuff It was like crazy like crazy, but then she knows that that I'm done and she's like that dude's not special He's like he's the beat up on him or whatever. Yeah, exactly like and you know there's nothing special about what he does like I see what he eats like it's not it's nothing nothing shocking so like you know that's that's I think what's so cool about it is like there's there's such a sense of Community about it and you'll be surprised at where it goes and who it touches and how it changes people like one little action can change And it's so stupid and cliche But like one decision can change the whole outcome of your life and it happens every single day There's all these moments and we make different decisions and those decisions Impacting and people in ways we won't even know and you know hopefully like that again the thing I love about Social media and that kind of stuff is you know you have the ability like I have so many people that are reached out and say like oh You know that talk you gave was inspirational and I decided to do this or whatever or you know I saw you run a race or you took a picture with me or you know I love what you do with Rosie or you know your kids or like you know I want to do something similar and and then I'll say the same thing like I was like oh my god I saw you did XYZ or like you know that's amazing that you were able to you know be befriend that person or go on that journey Or do this and I don't know I feel like we're in a really lucky time Well Are you sure you want to do that and it feels like I'm trying to like take down your goals your dreams or whatever Yeah, what I had it took me a long time to realize it's just like people have different risk profiles And I'm I have like a very whatever the opposite of risk versus I'm very that so very risk prone like I'm if Down a lot of Bitcoin Long time ago, maybe yeah No Bitcoin like 2011 so but I But from a risk risk standpoint a lot of people They just have different risk profiles and a lot of times the reason they say are you sure you want to do that Is because they don't know anyone has done it and so when you become that person that goes and does it then all of a sudden It expands their understanding of that risk profile and all of a sudden it doesn't seem so risky to them They seem it seems more accessible and then a lot of times Oh a lot of times people are just waiting for someone around them to do it and then that feels like they get permission to go ahead and do it themselves and So we've got people that are saying hey are you sure you can do that and you know if they're being mean about it That's one thing if they're doing it out of like concern You just have to realize it's not a you know, it's not a personal thing It's more like hey, they just maybe don't know anyone who's done something like that So you get to be the person you get you get to pay the way and that's that's fun sometimes Yeah, I completely agree and what I mean and that's just like me, you know with my friend Vince's mom like Vicki like she Was the first person I knew that do it and that kind of gave me the permission and and the opportunity to kind of look at Myself and be like I can do that.

I think I could do that and if I can't do that like You know she can do it. Yeah, like I should be able to do that like and and a lot of times like it's what that's so awesome About what we do is like you don't have to be any certain size. You don't have to be any certain weight Like there's nothing like, you know if you wanted to be professional basketball player like, you know You probably need some skills unless you need to be born six six otherwise like there's like one guy that's under six foot That's gonna be playing the NBA every right and what's so cool about it is like it's possible It's just gonna be a lot more difficult right but like and you know, that's what I think is so cool It's like anything's really possible. You're willing to make the time like yeah I can be amazing at by Athlon But growing up in DC like my opportunity to be like a world-class year is a little bit less than somebody that's growing up in Durango or Silverton Colorado or something, right?

So like, you know, there's just things that you you know you Different circumstances can dictate but like the nice thing about running is like anybody can be really incredible at running like and even like, you know It's harder to train in DC for running in the mountains or Chicago or you know, Florida But it's possible and you're you know anything's possible and that's what's so cool about it It's like yeah, if you want to make the time and commitment and input that work in like you can reap the benefits And there's nothing that is limiting to it, right? Like it's and even even with the running It's you can have so many different things that you choose to be like the challenge you can choose to get faster You choose to go longer You can choose to do like a more mountainous race you can choose to do like just you know These crazy ones out in the middle of nowhere and that's what always appeal to me because I never I never really In my self as a fast runner, but what I feel like I'm pretty good at is suffering Yeah, and that's and that's not something to scoff at I mean that's something that like there's a real skill to that and there are some races that if you want it and sometimes you don't even like You don't do a race just because you think you're gonna win or you you know It's because it's something that you want to maybe improve on or it's something that you know You want to experience right like or just to see if you can do it like I mean I sign up for lots of stuff just because I don't know and like this is an opportunity to fail really and Maybe I don't I don't make it like the Barclay this year like you know the chance of me making it not very good But you know the chance of me making it the next time probably better than the first time and then you know if I'm willing to keep putting the work in like Eventually you have a really good chance of finishing it like anything can happen But it's just one of those things like you know you first time you want to do anything like unless you're super gifted It's probably not gonna go exactly smoothly and everything changes with running You know just based on you know what you ate the night before or what you know how you slept like did you get to the go to the bathroom? There's you know so many variables and that's what's so cool is like every time you go out there You have to perform there's no you can't there's no hiding and there's no it's not a team sport Like there are teams and you can run for a team But like eventually like there's no you know if you're having a bad day It's it's kind of on you and that's also powerful too because if you're having a good day That's on you too and that being said like it's not a it's not a solitary sport There's a big team behind everything you do and everything I do like it's not just me So you're just you know There's you know people that are helping with the kids or you know people that are crewing me or sponsors that are helping me You know get there and so yeah, it is solitary, but it's also community and I don't know I know you mean with Sometimes you be out there all on your own, but then like having the community like at the end of the races and even at the aid stations Like seeing somebody like yeah, it's like oh, I've seen anybody like two hours It's nice. There's an aspect of that.

I really like yeah I've well and then also the other athletes too like you and you form these bonds and that's what's so cool too is like the Endurance events in general strip away so much of the pretense like you could be running next to a billionaire and next to Another international shipbroker and next to somebody that works at McDonald's and like it doesn't matter You're like all the same like what we're all just runners Yeah, one of my favorite things about an article is there's no phone know anything or whatever and so you just get to know people Based on just like conversations and then how good they are at katon like that was like the basis for like Everyone the rules are not you get to know what kind of person they are they only tell you some of the rules Reference to me Actually, I won't tell my kids actually I've been asking for that game forever So it's on it's on the list so we'll see if Santa brings it, but I'm pretty sure Santa knows about it So I go I like that yeah, so we're a little bit over an hour. I still have a three more questions than some quick kids for you You have time yeah, let's do it awesome So I'm really curious on what your thoughts are what you're thinking about during a race because I know sometimes like my like I said I'm good at suffering. I'm not always the fastest So I'm not always thinking about like specific pacing's all the time I it you know like good races think about pacing You know planning out, you know how the rest of the races go on the days where it's just like okay I'd won race in Thailand where I want to say was my My third race in my third ultra and like four weeks or something like that And it was super hot and all I thought about was like Just made up swear words made up swear words and just thinking I'm going to finish this race It is not gonna be pretty but I'm gonna finish this thing But I'm always curious what people what other runners think about when they're running and kind of how they deal with all the thoughts that come up during a race Yeah, I mean I think that's that's one of the big things I mean I think it depends on you know what kind of race and where you are and like how it's going I mean I think For me at this point usually I'm trying to race for some kind of goal and so usually I'm kind of keeping that pretty Front and center in my mind So you know usually the goal in almost any races to finish So you know if I'm pretty sure that that's gonna happen then my second goal might be you know top 10 And then my third goal might be you know first master and then my fourth goal might be you know podium and my fifth goal might be To win the race outright and then you know if I wonder if you think you're gonna win the race outright Well, then maybe I should try to go for the course record and then you know And then the way that I think about that during the race is you know How am I going about achieving those goals and really it becomes down to really simple things like and I think that's one of the cool things about What we do is like it's pretty simple, but it can be complicated, right? So like it's pretty simple like you know you need to eat you know You need to drink but then it comes like well You know how do you achieve those goals and how do you stay up on your fluids and then how do you?

Manage all the different things that come up especially as the race distance increases like the number of things that can go sideways on your plan Start to in mind at least in my experience start to exponentially change and that dynamic changes, but it's all a lot of just binary Yes, no, I try to make it pretty simple. So do I need to eat yes, okay? And I try to keep it you know like every and You know there's different strategies for that like one of the things I do in longer races is I said in alarm for every 25 minutes and you know It rings and you know I'm sorry for the people that are around me for like eight or ten or twelve or twenty four hours But it's something that you know I used to remind myself did I eat okay? How do I feel like can I take some water do I need more water how far to the next aid station and it really I become almost like Driving like a car sometimes I'll explain it and you know like is the fuel gauge good?

Okay? How's the temperature? Okay? Good, you know How is how are the you know how's the chafing am I having any chafing probably not because I'm using my squirrels not better?

But if I am like do I need some you know to put some more on and I'm gonna see a crew coming up like Is this a big climb should I eat before the climb? Maybe I should eat earlier You know is somebody you know if I'm in you know position to you know challenge for the race is somebody trying to break me? Like am I trying to break somebody? You know what's the footing like how are my feet feeling?

Do I need to get something out of my path? Is it too cold like is it gonna be this cold for a long time? Like am I gonna need to get gloves like do I have gloves? Yeah, like you're just doing that like you do it really quickly But you're you know and I think that you know there are times where you're like okay everything's good Like I'm just gonna go away for a little bit And I think I'm actually really good at that like you know I'm running a 200 meter track like everything's covered like I just need to be away from myself for a while And so I just go away and I'm like okay.

I'll come back in I don't know Yeah, you know 15 miles or something when I really have to start doing the work and like that's you know I think a skill too is like you know Can you put your can you put all those checklists and thoughts on pause and just kind of be in the moment? And I love when that happens and like that doesn't always happen But you know you're just there and then you're like a lot of times like I'm just like I gotta appreciate this I might never be here again So I'll just look over and just be like like when we were an Antarctic I like there's so many moments where I was just like This is this is something I need to remember and I'll just take a mental snapshot of it And just like I still like I just got goosebumps thinking about it Like but you're able to you're able to have those moments like so you know all that stuff is important like you know Doing the checklist making sure eating all that stuff But I think also you just gotta sometimes just take a second and just be like this is this is something awesome Like that I I'm doing with all these people supporting me or on your own or wherever it is I mean, but like just like I can't believe I just saw that Fox I can't believe I just you know heard that how or monkey in the bushes or you know I wonder if there's a snake around the next corner or boar or like am I gonna see it's a zero zebra or lion or puffer you know like or You know, they're gonna be dolphins on the coast when I get there in like two days like I don't know So like just kind of appreciating that you know, this is something lucky and and a lot of times like it's stuff is not going Well, like that's another thing like you have to kind of get yourself out of it I mean you've done enough long stuff or even some shorter stuff, you know Sometimes things go wrong and that's also like you know a challenge and that's something I kind of used to like be nervous About having but I think that's actually one of the things I kind of look forward to now is like Sometimes you're like, okay, I've got this like the last time this happened, you know I took you know five goos and and I felt better and like then you do the five goos and you know like oh that didn't work like okay now what like Nothing sounds good everything looks like razor plates what do I do now? And like those are the kind of decisions and kind of things that kind of creep up and And it's really cool is like you got to figure it out and like it doesn't just because it worked last time doesn't mean It's gonna work this time, you know I was gonna ask you what happens when a race goes sideways Because a lot of times and this is the other thing is like I'll run a race and when I sign up for race Unless like I get a leg I lose a leg in the middle race like the race is getting completed Like I don't think I've ever dropped out of a race Which I don't always know if it's a good thing I've hurt myself and like finished a race and like I probably should have just dropped out But I'm curious because you're so prolific and because a lot of the races you're doing you have a specific goal But you're also kind of just enjoying being there and like you like you said before you don't want to miss out I'm a lot of people if they're having a bad race and you know It's one of their you know the races that they train for they know they're not on target for their goal They're not gonna you know use up the rest of the gas in the tank because they know they're you know way off their pace from early on Right do you I mean do you call it in early on a lot of those or do you are you constantly just trying to fix it throughout the race Would be like okay, what can I do here? What do I do here?

Then you know only in last resort do you do something drastic or what? Yeah, I mean I think that What's so cool and you probably know this is like you can feel like death like death like absolutely like you're like I could not move as if someone had a million dollars and they said it's around that corner I could not run one step faster and it wouldn't matter it wouldn't matter like I don't care like if they said you get there in a Minute like this is as fast as you can go and then you are like I can't endure any a single more not one not one step More and then somehow you get past that step and then you get two steps further and then you get five steps further And then you get a mile further and then two miles later You could feel like you just started again And it's the most unbelievable thing Yeah, especially when you've experienced it before and you know that it's possible like that's I think really powerful like we were talking about like just having that knowledge and that fitness and the experience but like that's one of the things I think that I Learned the most is like that things change and it's not always gonna I think someone told me once like never drop out while you're going uphill and I think that's actually a really good strategy like Because it's weird like you'll be in a funk in your head and you're like I can't do this anymore like You know this is just the scenery is always gonna be like this or something and like 20 minutes later You could be in a completely different mental state or even five minutes later, you know or maybe you just need to eat You haven't eaten in a while and so like I try to I try to not drop out I think I've dropped out of maybe five or six things and the course of like 20 years Yeah, and so and each time I've regretted it like there's there was actually one time where I Dropped out of the sparkathlon like a year or so ago with chafing so bad and like tendonitis and just like I just was Hypothermic and it was just terrible and I do not I do not feel bad about that at all Like I was just I was just not able to and I could have walked I could walk for like two days and still And I just I was just done and like and I breathe like I wasn't hurt like usually I'll be like oh, you know you're you know If you're hurt like that's different right and I was almost hoping I would like get hurt so I have an excuse to like drop out And you know I had ended up in a boot after that and it was bad I still ended up running two more marathons after that like the next weekend and weekend after and then I did Dagnal to food like three weeks later, but it was like still like I was I was glad that I didn't finish that But I it's one of those things where I want to go back now and do it like for sure Do you do you tell yourself something specific or do you like have a thing you do like I know a lot of times if I'm like in a real bad Phone sometimes it's like it's an insulin use you I just like I need some food so like yeah I'll get like I'll get I don't know if this happens to other runners But like I'll get sad sometimes on a run and like it's the stupidest thing It's like okay, my knees are fine, whatever, but like I've been out there for a while and I'm like just a little bit sad I'm like, okay, I have a goo or have some sort of food and all of a sudden, you know, it's a little level go back up like oh, okay Things are okay here. Yeah, so are there any like tricks either food nutrition wise or like things that you tell yourself like the don't quit going uphill That you get through when things do suck and you're like, oh, I feel like I'm going to die Yeah, for sure. I mean I think that that's the biggest thing is usually it's usually you just need to eat or drink For the most part either like the times that I've had the most trouble is like I haven't been eating enough I haven't been able to keep food down, which is another problem your stomach's messed up And this last year I've had a lot of stomach issues like you so you're having like diarrhea and chafing like so like, you know, it's stuff that's all manageable but like also like you know that needs to be addressed and usually if you can figure out what's causing you the discomfort or Then you can kind of address it and sometimes it's like you're saying it's just like you're not in the right mental state and a lot of times That goes back to either eating or drinking like you know, you don't want to get hangry or anything and um And if you if that's not working and then sometimes it's just you just need to you know throw on uh some music or Change the topic like if you're running with somebody or Just getting your own head for a little bit and so like what a lot of times like I'll just tell myself like if I'm really not liking it I was like you uh, this is what you do like this is this is this is like this is what you do This is what you signed up for like you know, and it's it's pretty powerful Just like remind yourself like to say that to yourself and out loud, you know, it's just like It's powerful because you're like no one forced you to be here Like if you didn't want to do this, you know, you didn't have to be here You wanted to do this at one point like go back and remember why that was and that's good And and I would I would I cannot tell you how many times that's worked It's just like yeah, like don't feel sorry for yourself Like this is this is what this is this is the opportunity like this is what you've been trained for this is and a lot of times I'll say like it's time to shine right and like and then you know, there's a lot of times where I've cursed like my My little thing that I like to say is like be relentless But like I didn't like why couldn't I've chosen like just try hard enough or something, you know, like but like I think that that that helps You know, it's just like yeah, this is you did your best, you know, you know, yeah exactly like yeah You can go home now like but like and I think that that's you know, that's the kind of thing It's you know, you don't do these things because they're easy Um, or at least I you know, and a lot of times like even if it is easy It's because you did the work to make it easy, right?

Like that's why like when you see like people that are extremely good at whatever they're doing It looks like it's effortless and it's not that's like the Amount of effort that they put into it to make it look easy. It's like when you see someone shoot an amazing basketball shot like that's Thousands of hours or like throw a perfect passing football and look like they just put their wrist and you're like That that looks I could do that and then you go and try to do it and you're like whoa That's not what I thought it was and just to be able to get your own in those positions and like to make a catch Or like to even run like when you're watching like the best runners in the world. It looks like they're doing nothing Like there's no pain on their face. They're just expressionless and they're just you know floating You know like wow and that and that's what I think is so cool.

Yeah, I liked I liked what you said about like You you signed up for this one like yeah, yeah, and I will do that. I'll do that a lot too. I'll do two things where I either Remind myself that the pain like the pain that I'm in right now That's the reason why I like to run I have a love-hate relationship with running and I said in the past I don't always love running, but I love what running gives me And I love what I get out of running in that those times when you're like 40 You know 40 is a lot for you, but when I'm 40 miles into the race and I'm like why the hell am I still out here? Yeah, I'm like oh, this is why because then I have to get to the point where I have this piece of me that wants to give up and wants to go home and It's tired or whatever and then there's another piece of me That's like well, you know, this is where you get a dig deep and find something out And so I either look back or I look forward and I figure okay at the end of the day I'm gonna be really tired and worn out no matter what am I gonna be happy that I finished the race or that I quit when I got Hard, you know, and I try to think about that and when I do that then it's like all of a sudden I'm like well I'm not gonna have done half this race and then just you know just you know felt the pain of half the race and then give it up I'm gonna knock the rest of this out.

Yeah, well, it's funny you say that and you know what's interesting is I've had a couple times where I've been like you know in the middle of the In the notion of diagonal to foo or like utm-b and Or even you know hard rock or lead bill or one of those races or western states and you know You're feeling terrible and you just want it to be over and you're like I can just end it all at this next stage station This would be you know, this would be you know easy to do and then I also remind myself like You're not flying out for like two more days. You're just gonna be sitting around like watching everyone else finish like that's not very fun You might as well just keep going like And there's gonna be the nice thing about all these events is like there are Thousands of people that are out there to support you like and so you know you might feel terrible But and I think where a lot of times that the worst The worst the worst things That have happened to me is because I have refused to change the expectations that I arbitrarily set before the event Gotcha, so you know what I mean like you say I'm gonna run sub three hours and you get sick the night before and you don't feel well Or all of a sudden there's like 50 mile an hour win head win the whole time and you were In your head gonna run sub three hours or two hours and 30 minutes or whatever The goal is and you refuse to change what your direction is gonna be because of something that you thought was gonna happen And I think that that is where a lot of people and myself included get into trouble is because You have these expectations on yourself and you refuse to allow them to be fluid and everything in life is fluid and I think that just Knowing that and but it's weird because it's a tricky balance right because you don't want to just be like oh I just don't want to do that anymore like right so like you have to find that balance But like I think knowing that things can change and then being able to adapt is gonna allow At least are allows me a lot more success than something that I just chose You know and I think especially a lot of these like A lot of the alternate like a long distance ultra marathons where you said you know It kind of multiplies a number of things that can go wrong and you can do everything in your power to like you know do nutrition correctly Do everything else? You know get your patient down everything else and all of a sudden you have a 50 mile per hour headwind or you have like Nowhere you know like you have different things that like you can't control and you can do If you just get completely defeated by that you're like well I'm just gonna give up or go home instead of adjusting your goals based on what's actually happening I think that's where people get I get into trouble or at least I've seen that. I mean So cool.

Yeah, so I have a couple quick hits for you before we close out. Are you ready for them? We're just gonna go a bunch of racing related questions that uh you can answer in Whatever race comes to mind off the top of your head. Okay, sure cool.

So what's the farthest race you've run? The ultra go be 400k that was over seven days It was supposed to but it was yeah, you know, I think you had 400 hours. I think it's like six days maybe Uh, no, it's less than that you had yeah, I don't know it's you had six days. So what did 24 times six is yeah 100 and you had 140 40 hours.

Okay, so a little under six days And I took it took us a little under five days. Okay, and I thought it would take three days It was up in some books. Yeah, it was it was definitely a lot longer a 48 hour mistake on my part That's funny. Uh, what's your favorite?

What's your favorite race you've ever run? Man, I always get this question. I always usually like cop and say the next one People answer. Yeah, I know people always ask but I mean I think I usually fall back on the Boston airthon So what got me into running?

So that's that's one Um that I think you know if I have to choose one I usually go there and um, but that being said like there's so many races that I don't even Have uh have in my head and that's that's why I want to do a podcast called like what next so that I can learn about all the All the cool races that I need to I need to go explore and you know, there's there's a bunch more than I need to get to I like that. I like that. Um, let me know if you need to help with that. Uh, I definitely well, man Yeah, I do.

I think it would be really cool because there's I mean there's races even in this area that I've I've not Um, been able to make make the time to visit or or do yet And I think like every time I talk to someone I learn a different one So it'd be cool to kind of catalog those and get them out to people so that you know We can all learn about more new and different and dynamic events. Okay cool Uh, what's the worst race you've ever run? As far as like how I performed or uh, as far as like I didn't like the race I would say I would say one that like so I did this race in tiland and it was just like it was a 50k And it was maybe a week and a half after I ran the an article one and I just did the hundred K I was like all right. I feel you know 50k is gonna be easy and it was just one of those races where you go in and you're like I I don't know what is going on, but this race is is handy my ass like it is it has my no Um, so what's the worst race where you've gone in and just like it just punched you in the face that hey, you know, what's up?

Yeah, I My first 100k that I ever got invited to was called the chancellor challenge. It was it's no longer around but it was in boston on the uh on the little path there by the um by the water where the clamshell is and I It was the first time I got invited so I thought it was hot, you know It's hot stuff and just excited and I was trying to you know Trying to run with one of the big guys this guy back in the day, Jim Garcia and again mark o'dell was there in torrents like it was in 2000 and I think one and uh, I just did whatever Jim Garcia did So I drank like I don't know five glasses of Gatorade in the first 5k and I just felt terrible and I continued to throw up for the next 10 and a half hours It got so bad that I was the last guy out on the course and uh my dad was like running interference with the guys the course marshals Because they said like we see that kid throw up one more time. We're gonna pull him off and I refused to quit I was like I'm not quitting and so uh my dad would like distract the guys and I'd like bomb in and um I eventually finished in like 10 and a half hours or something Um, you know, they're like pulling down the tents like okay. We gotta go, you know, you know, can you be done and uh And then I threw up all the way to the hotel room.

I threw up in my buddy mark o'dell's Uh shower and then I threw up in the cab all the way to the airplane all the way Yeah, I was pretty That was probably one that's still like probably one of my worst experiences I gotta say like the altar go with this last time like I've never felt that bad as Uh during that until I ran the New York city marathon this year and I threw up like 12 times before the start I'd never actually walk to a starting line feeling as bad as I did in New York this year Like I I felt just like death and like they they almost I'm so fortunate that the New York roadrunners are such pros They were like hey, you know, you do not look good. You don't have to do this And I was like no no, I'm good I like I kind of conned my way onto the bus and then you know They they were kind enough to let me start and I was able to get finished But I don't think I've ever felt that bad starting a race. That's rough. Uh, what's the what's the most beautiful race you've run?

um Oh, man, I have um, I've been lucky. I've got to go to a lot of places. There's um The long and barge marathon in Iceland is pretty majestic. The altar trail the mont Blanc is you know, obviously really ridiculous Hard rock this year was just off the off the rails amazing Pikes peak.

I was really impressed with like that was that was really beautiful and my bill had some some serious beauty Western dates is always beautiful. Um, I run the big sir. I won the big sir marathon this year. Um, I was in kawaii Which I won the kawaii marathon also this year.

That's pretty ridiculous. Um, I Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think Antarctica. I don't know about you, but I thought I thought you know There's all stark beauty to that place that just Um is impressive like there were as I said earlier Like I still have goosebumps and just thinking about it like the watching the sun break through the clouds along that mountain range while we were Out there. Um, this still one, you know, it's just strikingly beautiful.

So, um, I'm I'm looking forward to like there's you know, there's Beauty almost everywhere and I'm looking forward to seeing a bunch more of it I was actually I was in Kosovo um this year too and did a race there a half marathon But I was taken by um, my friend who's the mayor of one of the towns who she's now in the in the parliament But she took me to um, Albania and there was a lot of beauty there too So, um, I'm hoping to get back to that part of the world and I've heard great things about eastern europe So I'd like to explore that and hopefully next year we're going to be going exploring more of um, like we want to get up to Alaska and also Like Scandinavia. So, um, looking forward to exploring that part of the world because it looks pretty ridiculous. Cool. Um, I I have what's the most challenging race, but I that might be similar to the worst race That's the same thing.

Um, I mean, I think that is definitely one of them. I think um the For me, there's a race called diagonal to food that's in the reunion island that I did, you know a couple weeks after that Spartathlon and and that races is really incredible like the whole island comes out. They just do an amazing job and um, but it's super difficult It was the first time I'd run for more than 30 hours. Um, I think it took me 31 hours or something and um, and I remember I was I was like in the top 50 or 60 people like so there were people that were out there for I don't know 60 hours or more and Um, I think that that one's that one's pretty tough.

Hard rock was I think pretty pretty tough It's you know, you're kind of exposed to the elements and it's pretty high so you're all you know 10 to 12,000 14,000 feet at hard rock So that you know that that makes it tough and I was actually surprised leadville was being so high like the whole time like you're really Um dealing with the altitude. Um, so I'm looking forward to like some of those high elevation races and then you know just seeing how that impacts you I don't know if you've done a lot of those, but it's it's funny how you know just running on a dirt road can be hard when you're at 10, 12, 15, 18,000 feet You're like, well, yeah, I've been legit I haven't done any in um in the Rockies, but I've done a couple of races in uh, uh, the the Swiss Alps and Oh, yeah, those uh the Swiss Alpine marathon festival that they've got going on, uh, I've done that a couple times and yeah, it takes it out of you pretty quickly You're like man, I thought I was gonna run yeah, exactly. Exactly. Really I'm bad at breathing.

Um, yeah, I can't even do that. Um, what is the do you have a go to race food? Um, in race food like yeah in race food. I mean usually I mean for the shorter stuff under like 50 miles.

It's usually goos and um, salt tablets and water and then over 50 miles it becomes a little more uh dynamic, you know, was adding in some soda and then also real food. So, you know, avocado sandwiches, bananas, berries. Um, I'm a huge proponent of almond butter. I eat it all the time.

So like I have an almond butter sponsor, Big Spoon. Um, and so I eat a lot of that and honey and yeah, it's um, really whatever you can stomach and that's that's kind of the cool thing. You know, I've raced guys that you know, only eat, um, you know, jelly donuts and still kick ass. So it's basically getting in calories that you can manage.

I think actually one of our friends, uh, he like goes and gets like Taco Bell and like, yeah, and like Big Max or something. So yeah, and it's, you know, whatever you can, whatever you can stomach works pretty well usually. You might remember this is I don't, he set the record for the Appalachian Trail running through it eating candy. Carl?

Yeah, I think, yeah, he was eating like candy the whole time and uh, it was like, all right. Um, I don't know, there's two or three guys that set the record like on top of each other the last couple years or something like that. Like someone did and then someone did it three months later. But yeah, like Scott did it.

Scott Jerick and then Carl Meltzer did it. This new guy, the string mean and that guy kicked it ass. Like he's a, he did really fast. So yeah, there's, there's a couple guys.

That's one of those things like, you know, that someday, you know, someday type thing. Like I'd love to, I don't know if I'd get the record, but I'd love just to try to do the trail myself and just see what it's all about. Cause supposedly, you know, it's, it's, it's one of those life changing things and yeah, it'd be fun to get to do that. That's cool.

So I got two more questions for you. Okay. What's scaring you these days? So there are any things that you like think about or like races you've read about or like even just like nonrunning things like podcasts or anything else in your life that you thought about and are slightly scared.

Cause a lot of times we'll talk about like, Oh, I was nervous to do that. I was, and then we tell the story afterwards and I like asking people, um, is there anything right now that is, is something that you're maybe scared or nervous or feels new that it's kind of been mulling around in your mind? Yeah, totally. I mean, I, I think, um, well, you know, one of the things that I have on my radar that is, and I think that this is actually one of the things that I really try to adhere to that I really find, um, therapeutic is like doing stuff that scares you and being, um, willing to kind of take those chances.

And one of the things that I would like to do, and I think that I touched on this earlier, but it's to do more adventuring in the cold. And so I want to do the Iditarod at some point, like not as a dog musher, but as a runner, you can do it that way too. Um, and so I've talked to some people about that. And I basically need to get some more skills to be able to do that.

And so I want to try to work on that. Um, and I think that that if I could do that, that's that's something that still scares me. It's just, you know, overcoming that fear of cold and each day I try to improve that a little bit more than the day before. But, um, and then doing some of these longer, um, longer events, like I'd love to run across the country at some point and the different continents and, um, some of the long trails and just seeing how I did, um, perform on those kind of, um, challenges.

And so like some, some of that kind of stuff. And then also, um, you know, trying to go and get my Olympic trials qualifier again. Um, so that's like sub two, 19. And so like, that's something that like I think is possible, but like it's also kind of scary because I haven't run that fast in, you know, while and so like just trying to get back and do all the work that you need to do to get there is, is scary, but also like super motivating.

So like, yeah, I want to do that too. Like that, that's something that I'm kind of fired up about. Okay, very cool. Um, and this is a similar question, slightly different, but what challenges are you looking forward to next?

You have, do you have a challenge, uh, specifically on the radar that you're like, that's the thing I'm going to do next or a race that is, uh, you're particularly looking forward to. Well, I mean, I think if I can get back into Barclay, that's going to be a big challenge. Um, that'll be, um, probably end March, early April, if it, if it is typical of when it usually is, and then I got back into hard rock this year. So I think that'll be a big challenge, um, in July.

And then I think, um, you know, trying to run really well, um, this year and to try to get that Olympic trials qualifier time, that would be great. And then I have a race in Costa Rica, the coastal challenge. And the last time I went, I won the race in 2014. So it'd be nice to, nice to try to see if I could repeat again.

I know there's a lot of good competition. So, you know, I want to be ready for that. And that's in really February. So those are some of the things I'm looking at right now.

But, you know, if anyone knows anything good, let me know. Hit me up. If you, um, if you do Barclay's, we'll get you back on here to talk about it afterwards because we actually had some questions about it, but I feel like that's a whole separate discussion that we can get into for like an entire podcast on its own. And then the other two, they're on my radar.

I don't know if you've heard about these two races, but they may be interesting. Um, the fire and ice ultra in, uh, Iceland. It's a multi-day race across Iceland. So if you want to get a multi-day thing in Iceland, it's supposed to be amazing.

Um, I'm looking at doing that. So maybe we'll talk. And then, uh, there's a Red Bull XLP's ultra running slash paragliding race where you go from like France to Monaco. And I don't even know how to paraglide, but I'm like, I, I would like to learn how.

And, um, it looks awesome. So how do you do that? Why is it? It's, it's in the summer.

Um, you need to get paraglide certified. And then I think you need to have like a companion to also, like, I don't know all the details on it, but I've looked at it a couple of times. You need to have like a companion to help film and prove that you're going through all the stuff. So you need to have someone who's like on your level of fitness that's flying with you and doing all these things.

So it's a, it's a crazy, crazy thing. And you have to somehow qualify. And, um, I don't know if it's paragliders that got into ultra running or ultra runners that got into paragliding or what the, you know, how they decided to do this, but you go through, you know, basically the Alps and then you ended Monaco. So that is, I'm so looking it up right now.

So it's a multi-day hike and fly adventure. Yeah. What? So see, this is this the thing, man.

This is like me walking into that store and being like, I didn't even know that was a thing. Apparently you can just do those things and that's allowed. That is awesome. So oh my god, I, I don't think I'm going to be able to get this approved.

There's some things that I'm not allowed to do until the kids are grown. I like climb all the highest mountains in the world. And this looks like it might fall into that category of things that might not get approved by the might not get approved, but this looks pretty awesome. The paragliding is relatively safe from compared to like Bayes Stumpier or something like that, but still it's, it's one of those things you need to be.

I think there are requirements on what you're required to be certified in and how long you've been paragliding. So that might be a bigger hold up. But from a from the hiking and the running aspect, you probably, you probably dominate that aspect. So yeah, figured it out.

Yeah. Yeah. You, yeah, I'm looking at the rules. It's, oh my gosh, this looks amazing.

Yeah. Tell me more stuff like this. All right. Well, we can talk more.

So that's all I've got right now. We can chat more offline on on races and stuff like that. But in the meantime, if anybody wants to find out, you know, what your race schedule is, where they can, you know, find out more if you do the podcast. One of the best places they can find out more about you.

Yeah, for sure. I mean, you can go to my website, which I, you know, as you know, it needs to be updated a little bit, but it's www.micordian.com. And then I'm also on most of the bigger social media platforms. So I'm on Facebook, I have an athlete page.

So you just type in like Facebook and then facebook.com slash Michael Wardian. And it's like athlete page because my personal thing is full. And then the Twitter's and Instagram, I'm at micordian. So M-I-K-E-W-A-R-D like dog, I-A-N like Nancy.

And I'll put all those at the show notes. So it's easy to find guys. Mike, thanks so much for doing this. I had a really good time catching up.

It's been a long time coming. So thanks for making the time for this. Of course, man. Yeah, it's so cool to see what you're doing.

And thanks for having me on. It was great to catch up and love to share some adventures with you going forward. All right. Let's do it again soon.

Hey, everybody. Thank you for listening to the show. Another one of the books. If you guys are enjoying the podcast, I'd love it if you went over to iTunes or Google or Stitcher or wherever you listen to the show and leave us a review and let other people know about the show.

It's the best way that we reach more people and help other people change their mindset, change their fitness, push their limits and do something impossible. All right. If you guys would like to support the show, there's a couple ways you can do that. First of all, head on over to impossiblegear.com.

Pick up a shirt, pick up some apparel, remind yourself to get comfortable while doing something uncomfortable. Look at the shirt. Remember, it's a reminder to push yourself to do something impossible and then go do some of the stuff that you've been talking about. You can also get cold shower therapy at the app and the course.

The course is free. The app is also free, but five minutes of cold showers a day for 30 days. If you're looking to change your mindset, that's the best way you can do it. You're going to find challenges in the shower that you'll be able to apply in other parts of your life.

Also, moveallapp.com. Moveall is your daily mobility coach. If you're an athlete looking to get stronger, you're trying to recover from an injury or you just want to have less pain from sitting down at your desk every day like I do, check it out. It's a free app that gives you mobility routines based on your specific need.

If you're trying to do a pre-workout before you want to hit a PR, a post-workout, if you want to recover or even just post work to help you loosen up your back, it's a couple bucks a month for you to feel better, get stronger, it's free to download and try out a bunch of routines. When you're pushing your limits, there is no such thing as overtraining, but there is something called under recovery. And if you're not recovering and you're pushing, if you're pushing your limits and you're not recovering, you're doing it wrong. So check out moveallapp.com.

All right, that's it for the show. Thanks for listening and remember as always guys, until the next time, keep pushing your limits and do something impossible. Boom.

3: Mike Wardian

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