The marketing movement by Refine Labs. Guys, this is Courtney Vermette. I am a art director here at Refine Labs, and I'm here with two of our amazing designers. I'm going to pass it over to the next one.
Hi, I'm Devin Rose. I'm a lead designer here. And I'm Maria, and I'm a senior graphic designer here at Refine. And today we're going to talk about our episode title is Make It Pop, a guy to better create a feedback.
So we're just going to go into some guidelines for giving productive feedback that's going to help you and your work shine in the best way possible. So I thought we could start with the first one, which was Find Us Problems and We'll Find Solutions. So I feel like in my experience, I know this definitely comes from a good place, for sure. And it definitely seems helpful to provide a solution when you're also identifying a problem.
But I feel like a lot of times the prescriptive feedback can be kind of limiting. So when a client says, I don't like this color change it to green, there's a very sort of black and white, no pun intended set of just very prescriptive feedback. So I feel like it's helpful more to consider the larger issue. So is it that the color is not a value that's included in your color palette?
Is it that the colors are skewing the ad darker? And it looks too removed from your current brand? Or is it that you want to communicate a softer tone and the color is taking away from that and making it feel sterile? Yeah, I think for me too, even then, there's some very black and white critique you get where it's I don't like this color change it to this, which I feel like is not the best feedback, but it's at least actionable.
I feel like my least favorite feedback is where I don't like this. I don't think it works. But when you get that, you're like, what do I do? Should I change the whole thing?
Should I scrap the whole thing? Where's a direction there? I think at the very bare minimum, at the very bare minimum of critique, at least saying, change this to that. It gives at least a designer an action point.
Now, I would love it if you're like, change it to that, because I love some of the examples you gave of, like, we want a softer tone. Or that's just it feels a little too bad of our brand guidelines. That gives me a frame of reference for all your future creatives, so the more detail you can give, always the better. But at least just give something.
I don't know how this works for us. Tell me why. And if you can't put it into words, why? Let's jump on a call and let's figure it out together.
Let's have a discovery. Because something that just has very opinion based, which is fine. There's always going to be subjections to it. But just something for us, for a designer to go, or a copywriter to go in action, if that makes any sense.
Yes, no, that makes a ton of sense. And I think you hit it spot on with the why question. Every time I receive feedback, I try to understand the why. And I know sometimes it's a little difficult for people that are non-creatives to communicate with us.
And I think that that's something that they should probably, like, we are trying to understand why. Every time they ask something. And we may know how to solve for that why. And they may not know how to communicate what the solve could be, if that makes sense.
So I think that that is very spot on when you said the why. That is where we are coming from. If you can provide the why and provide it, but if you can't, then that's what we're here for, to help you figure out why. Yeah, absolutely.
I mean, I think it goes with any industry that you're not part of. The other side of it is interpreting that feedback and getting to the heart of what the client wants versus exactly what they're saying necessarily. So that's a really good point. And I feel like that also goes into the next guideline that I was thinking about, which was providing context to support feedback, which I think is huge.
Like you were saying, Devin, tell us why. If you feel like this is something that would benefit the ad, the design, the campaign, tell us why. And maybe we can find a better solve. Maybe there's a different solve that would accomplish that better or in a larger scale kind of way.
And I feel like a classic example is make the logo bigger. You know what I mean? So that's something in itself is sort of like a symptom of a larger issue. And it's usually not so much that you have to make the logo bigger.
It's that maybe the branding and the sense of brand within the ad is a little bit weaker than you would like. So maybe it's about amplifying the brand presence. And maybe it's leaning into the brand colors more. And we're bringing more brand elements and making that brand stand out within the ad a lot stronger versus making the logo bigger.
For sure. And then I, especially here at Refine, we're specifically dealing with SaaS companies. We're not dealing with the simple B2C, where it's like sell these body pillows, where it's like, OK, everyone knows what a body pillow is. And we know what the benefit, as a designer, I can also know that.
But when I'm dealing with these SaaS companies, I'm sure we all experience this. Sometimes it's just so high level. And we're just so not in that industry that you try to wrap your mind around sometimes what this whole software does. And it just doesn't translate to you because as a designer, you're not in that industry.
So in Refine, we really do have to partner with our clients. One of my clients, I know, is like a software for energy development, developing wind farms and solar panels and very much within the energy field. And there's a lot of data and a lot of terminology that I'm like, I have no idea what you mean. So specifically whenever they would give me feedback, which it did help that they have a creative director on their team, which having a creative does help a little bit.
But I think anyone can give actionable productive feedback. But this creative director would be like, hey, don't use this. I like what you're doing. But don't use this imagery because this and this and this it's against our violations, which that was great.
Because then I knew for all future adsets, I shouldn't be using this imagery. And then in the converse, we'd be like, I love this imagery because this and this and this within our industry. And it's like, oh, great. I know to lean into this in our ads in the future.
So it's really about being partners because your client is the expert on their field. And then we are experts in creating these visually appealing designs and it's about working together rather than sometimes it feels like we're working in opposition. No, I totally agree with you. I feel like when we have those relationships with the other, with our clients, that's when the best work is produced.
Even, you know, like you said, there's something that we have to wrap our head around. We don't quite understand their product. But it's amazing when you get on a call and you have a conversation with the client. And they physically explain to you what they do.
You understand it 100 times better than you would have, just reading their brief and going through their website. And then also, like you said, when they have creatives on their team and they get, we get to work with them. I know that gets me excited because I'm like, yeah, like that means that more people to collaborate with and more eyes on your design, which makes it better in the long run. So yeah, I know I agree with you.
I think that having those, you know, those relationships with our clients are extremely important. And they also help in the long run with our feedback too because when we have those communications and the connection up front and we're building that relationship and when it comes down for feedback, it's kind of easier to communicate and get to the point and explain what they like, what they don't like, and what's working and what's not working. 100%. Yeah.
I feel like, so the wise did always come from the client and we welcome the wise. Like please give us your reason why. And we'll provide the how. And I feel like that will lead to like a harmonious balance of work and like ultimately a really beautiful ad.
And I also, I found in my experience that if you're asked why you want something a certain way and you're struggling to sort of answer that, it could mean that it doesn't necessarily tie back to project goals and customer needs. So maybe it's something to consider moving on from. And I feel like that helps with a lot of decision making. If you can't really sort of support it with something, it might be that it's not entirely necessary, but you know, so it's oftentimes the case.
Like a personal bias or the client just doesn't like the color yellow so they'll change the color yellow. And it's like, well, I mean, that isn't your brand guidelines and we've proven that like this, sometimes this works for us. So maybe we should, maybe we should just try it this time around and if the data doesn't support that it's successful, then we can steer clear of it next rounds. But at some point, sometimes you have to see is like, is this productive for the overall like communication and like efficacy of that?
Or is it your own personal likes and dislikes? Which as designers we have that as well too, like there's some fonts. I'm like, I don't ever want to use that font. But if that's like a client's font, then you just kind of have to make do and make the best of like a situation that you might personally not like.
But when it comes down to it, it's more about the consumer and who's going to click on your ad and what you're going to get from it rather than, oh, I hate the font, Roboto or whatever. Now that I hate that font, but yes. Yeah, yeah, totally. I mean, and actually that's a perfect segue into the next one which is maintain objectivity always.
So like you were saying, like we're supposed to be putting our minds in the minds of the users and social the client, you know, so we're really working towards the users' preferences and not the aesthetic preferences of the client or our own for that matter. So it's important to remember what they want, how they're going to respond to things best and what we can do to optimize their experience ultimately. So saying like, I don't like this or this is gross. I don't like this color or change this because I don't like it.
Obviously it's not going to be super helpful. I hope no client has looked at yourself and they're like, that's gross. I'm sorry. I don't know what here is that.
I haven't gotten that yet, but I hope no one gets that. I have to say, I will say like as far as like feedback and if I was in a client's shoes, I think some of the best feedback I get is when they ask questions. Like, this isn't working, but could you try this? Or could you try that?
Or what if we try this or what if we try that? I think question asking is the best way because then it challenges you as a designer, like, okay, let me try this. See if this works. Okay, this isn't working, but maybe this works.
So I think that that is definitely something that I like the stress. Like asking questions is probably the best way to approach feedback sometimes if you don't know where to start. It's like, this isn't working, but what about that or what about this? Or what do you think?
Is there a way we could, you know, make this look stronger or make this text pop more? I think that is like a really good route for asking feedback. For sure, yeah. Yeah, for sure.
I think also just staying close to very actionable language is also really good too. Like we've all had that sort of, and I've had it also with creative directors as well, where they're like, can you make this more dynamic? And it's like, what does that mean? I know what dynamic means to me, but since it's such a subjective thing, it's and then there's the whole joke of make it pop, you know?
Yeah. Yeah, the classic Razzle Dazzle, Spice It Up, all of those. Yeah, I mean, I could, but that would be subjective to me. So again, it's like maintaining that objectivity like not using language that can be, that leaves someone confused.
You know, can you imagine if like a sales director went up to one of their sales associates, and was like, hey, I just really need you to jazz up your sales calls. What do you want me to, you know, if we went to our people team and it's like, yeah, could you make these events pop more? Like there's nothing of action in there. And it leaves the person you're giving the critique to, more confused than it does with a, oh, let me make a game plan on this.
Like it just is like, there's like this whole period we're just trying to decipher, not only what they mean by that, but what that means to them. So being completely, like again, very objective and taking out personal biases, but also just the language theory objective as well. Not, I think sometimes we get really lost on creatives because people are like, oh, they're creatives. So let's use this like creative nebulous language.
And it just makes it all the more confusing, you know? 100%. Yeah. I mean, I feel like that's also like going to your mechanic and being like, can you make my car just like pop more?
Like, you know, like go to your doctor, like for your physical year. I just know you're this up a little bit. Yeah, like just make this better. Like, yeah.
I don't know, I'm just feeling a little less dynamic. You know, like, are you fatigued? Like just being as descriptive as possible. And as, you know, just very focused, like having a lot of focus to what you're saying.
And I know I'm refying, we do like our living videos or sometimes we go on a live call when we talk about our ads and we, you know, because as designers, we're not just putting things together. Because we're like, this looks pretty. There's reasons why we do literally every single thing on our ads. So when we kind of talk that through and we have a client, you know, that's open and upset excepting a lot of times there's way less feedback because the client can say, oh, there's research being put into this and they're stopping put into why this is here and why this graphical element is used here and stuff like that.
So just being as clear as possible on both ads and both as a designer and as, you know, a client. So for sure. Yeah. I also, oh, sorry, I got it.
No, you can go ahead. I was just going to say, I also love when clients will say, like I love when they phrase it in terms of like their audience. So when they're saying like, instead of, I don't like this, saying like, our users may not understand this. Our users might find this hard to read or our users might get overwhelmed by this approach.
Like that's something that is actionable, that I can like go in and fix and find a different solution for as opposed to, you know, add some spice or razzle-dazzle and all that. Although I will touch on the spice part. I do, I actually was in a recent kickoff call and we asked the client if they wanted, I think it was mild, hot and spicy. If we wanted to push their design mild, hot and spicy and the client said spicy completely out of the box.
Just throwing that in there, I think that that is a really good question. And if you're a client, maybe think of that. If you want it, you know, just mild or hot or you want to completely push the boundaries with the design spicy. And I also have to shout out Quaynard designer who came up with that question.
Yeah, it's just on that topic of the spice. Yeah, I had to bring that up. That's great. But you also know, if you're going to say spicy to a designer, they're going to bring it spicy.
They're going to look like anything your brand probably has done before. I mean, they'll stay with the guidelines. But it might push those guidelines. They just know.
Yes, definitely. But you know, if you have your client, you know, on board and behind your back, you're ready to go that, you know, that's the best way to go, I feel like. Why not test it, you know? What if it really works?
Yeah, that's something we mentioned in our last episode that like sometimes the thing that you are kind of unsure of, you know, there's no sense in not trying it out. But I love that. I love that sort of like, and I love that that's like given in the beginning because that's really more like, that's not vague. Like the way that's presented doesn't come across as vague because it's more like, here's your creative range.
Like do you want to stay kind of close to what you have? Do you want to go further out? Or do you want to like bring you back a wild card? You know what I mean?
So I think that's like a lot more helpful to like set out the creative journey with versus like later on like, hey, spice this up. Like that doesn't help. Exactly. And just a disclaimer on the spicy, like obviously that is in brands, brand guidelines, we were just pushing the boundaries of it.
Right. Totally. I know sometimes I work with clients like, and it's like my first package with them. Like I will do like step that's a little bit outside, but then I will also at least give them one ad set that looks very similar to their previous ads.
And what's fun is I had some clients I've done that for and they're like, this looks like some of our older ads. Can you just go more out of the box? I'm like, hell yeah, say less. Say less, yes.
A lot of times they do end up like taking to that because they're not really aware. They don't think of it as like that far out. They think of it as something that's going to capture attention because that's the goal, right? Yeah.
And especially for clients who have been making ads on their own before, it's like, well, we've already done this. Ourselves were coming to you for something different. Give us something different. And I'm like, yeah, I completely agree with that approach.
Absolutely. Why would you come to us if it were just going to reiterate on something that you're already within your bandwidth? Like, it looks like something different for you. Exactly.
Yeah. So, and so going into like the next one, I think this is also pretty related, like streamlining your feedback. So like streamlining your feedback and the mindful of the review window. So I feel like it is also difficult to deliver ads on time when there's like a huge committee of people leaving comments that sort of contradict each other as well.
So like, if the client isn't aligned internally, it's hard for us to be aligned to like all of those paths externally. So I think like something really important for that is just like consolidating feedback, keeping it in one place from one point of contact and having like that's really the ideal situation from at least from my perspective and my experience. And that always yields the fastest turnaround time. Like, bye for her.
Yeah, I would say one point of contact is always the best. But if you are someone who, if you're a client and you're like, no, I want to have multiple people look over it. I always think the best form of, you know, the back loop is to get on a live call and specifically talk through it because I've done a couple of ads where they've had like five reviewers who like weigh in. But then when they're on the phone call and there's those contradictions, they talk it out while I'm there and they come up with a solution there rather than like five different comments saying yes, no, no, yes, change, yes, don't change it.
Keep it. And then you're like, what should I do though? And then there's five more people still sounding off when if there's in a call, they can debate amongst themselves. And when they come to a decision, I'm there on the call.
That's what I'll do. So if you want more people to weigh in, totally fine. But maybe we consider the way you give feedback instead of typing it out, why don't we just like hop on a quick 15 minute call and go over everything? Because then after that 15 minute call, after that just conversation, I can immediately go to my art board and make those changes that we talked about.
Because if you do give me something like a vague thing, I'm going to ask you then, like, oh, you said make it pop. What do you mean by that? Do you want me to add more colors? Do you think I should add more graphical elements?
Do you want me to change this in this way? Like, I'll we'll get to the bottom of it on a call so that by the time we're off this 15, 20 minute call, you'll have your next group within the next hour or so. Definitely. No, I totally agree with you.
I think that the calls have a bad solution for those. But if not, like definitely having that one communicator or a prober doesn't necessarily necessarily have to be the person calling like you can have an internal conversation amongst yourselves, agree on something and then communicate it to us. But definitely just having that one streamline form a communication from one person is definitely the best route to take. And it also helps us turn around, like you mentioned, turning the ads around quicker.
You got everything is quicker and it produces better results when you're just communicating and streamlining. Yeah, for sure. I love the idea of that call too, because you're hearing them nostalgia out and you're also getting the whys behind their arguments while they're working it out. Like, I think for me, it's really helpful to hear like, okay, well, why did you present this comment?
Why were you like in favor of this feedback? Even if they're not agreeing at the end on that particular piece, I feel like knowing why they suggested it in the first place is going to help me and it's going to inform what I do. So and also if you're on those calls and you have two people that are maybe contradicting each other, you as a designer can sit there and be like, okay, I can solve this and this by doing this together. So you can also come up with the solutions on the call with them and kind of solve the back and forth between them.
So it wins for everybody. Totally. Yeah. And just an added bonus, like just builds that client designer create client creative relationship that makes things just go so much smoother for each round because they feel like they're a part of their team at that point because you're helping them get to this, you're talking through this, you're having conversations, you're having FaceTime.
So it's less like this disembodied person over here, he's sending you ads once a month and you're just, you know, bleeding feedback and whatever and it's all very in personal and sometimes then like feedback can come across as very cold and you're like, this is quite a matter. I'm like, where is whenever you have that back and forth relationship, it's a lot easier just to like communicate effectively and then also just to build that like sense of camaraderie as like we're a team, you know? Yeah, for sure. And also like, I feel like I come across sometimes a little colds when it's just like text.
I think that's just like the way I type sometimes. So I definitely love having those calls and like being like more than just like the floating head of a bloom, you know? Because sometimes like even that's not enough and it's just better to have an exchange. So fully fully agree on that.
And that actually takes us to the last one, which is ensuring we're beginning from a place of mutual trust, which I think is probably the biggest one because none of this really can be possible without trust in us as a team and in the client to provide what we need to do, what we do. So I feel like, you know, it's helpful to remind clients that like, we're here to amplify the brand, we're here to show how much of a game changer your product or service is. And we're really kind of one team across to companies, your company and refine labs, you know? So we definitely encourage clients to trust our process and our expertise that the client can be freed up to do what they have to do during the day instead of worrying about all the smaller parts of our role.
You know, so I think it benefits everybody to have concerns and ideas, voice and heard from both sides. You know what I mean? Yes, definitely. I think that one good point I know we use internally as we are an extension of their team.
We're not working against them. We're not separate. We're part of your team. And that's our goal going into every client that we take on.
And I think that that's something really good, like that every client should know, like that's the place that we're coming from. We see you as a part of our team and we're here to produce the best results. And we want to make obviously make the client happy, but we want to also like put our expertise out there and make sure we are, you know, taking it a step above what currently is out there and what exists already for their brand. I have a story, but this is from like a couple of jobs ago.
So it doesn't want to do over fine, but it's talking about kind of being specific with your language and I had a creative director. So this is definitely just not with non creatives. Like even anybody can fall victim to like confusing language when it comes to critique. I had a creative director when I presented, you know, my finished product to her, like my first group, she just kept saying, make it more dynamic.
And I was like, okay. And so then I did which I thought she meant by dynamic. And so I changed things, did it and said to her and she said, no, no, no, I want it more dynamic. So she said the exact same thing to me.
And I was like, okay. So then I changed it again. And at the very, my third go round, she said, no, all the photos you've chosen have people wearing white and gray. I want more color in the photos.
And I said, oh, if we would have started with that from the very beginning, like this would have saved us so much more time. So that comes back to just having an actionable thing. So if you see something you don't like, if you're saying like, oh, I don't think this stands out enough as a client or something, or, you know, whatever, just look at it and think why if you're like, I don't like this or I don't think this works or I don't think this stands out enough. Like if you can try to articulate why that does, you know, just really circling back to the why that is so paramount to us when it comes to, you know, giving you your best ads for sure.
And if you again, if you don't know why, let's just talk on a call, let's do like a five minute call and talk about it because then together we can come up with that. Why? If you just look at it and say like there's something off and I'm sorry, I just can't articulate what it is. Let's come to that together for sure.
And we can then come out rather than let's do several rounds. And like not only does that take time away from you as the client takes time away from us as refined labs and it delays your ads from getting into platform. So like to benefit all of us, let's just work this out together and really again, work hand in hand in this rather than, you know, trying to decipher what each critique means. Yeah, there's actually a lot of interpersonal communication.
I feel like a lot of people think that remote designers are not really removed from people. They're not talking to people, but like everything from loom videos to calls to to like even how to slack calls, all of that stuff is it's a lot of communication. It's super imperative. No, absolutely.
Yeah, stuff and I feel like especially us and our culture too, like we are nonstop talking to each other, even with copywriters, you know, our directors, that's a daily and hourly occurrence, like we're always in communication with one another and to touch on what you said, Devin, about that asking why I was designing ads one time and I had a client that asked me to change the contrast of a photo and the photo had already been a light photo. They said they need to make it lighter. And but if I was to do that, it would have washed the photo out. So I had to kind of step back and be like, okay, why are you asking this?
So then I asked them a few questions and I said, is it the photo? You know, is it the text not standing out and basically what I boiled down to, the text that there was a box with some text inside of it and a box was not standing out enough. So a simple solve for that was I changed the color of the box and that changed the contrast and then that made the ad and then it was a happy client. So I think it's definitely about asking the why and getting down to what exactly is going wrong.
Absolutely. I know Marcelle once told me like she was on the client before she was an art director, she told me to a client and apparently they looked at an ad and they're like, we don't like this at all. And they're like, okay, so they sat down and had a meeting about it. And apparently they just wanted her to change the background color.
And that was it. Like once they sat down and actually talked to her and they're like, okay, well, you know, what about it? Is it a brand did enough? Like, do you want to change medium rather than like photos?
You want illustration? Do you want UI? Like, you know, they went around really trying to figure out that I don't like this, trying to figure out what it was that they don't like. And it was just a simple color change.
So it could have been completely scrapping an ad starting over potentially like hours of editing. It came a background color change, which as we all know is like, quick and easy. Yeah. You know, so again, yeah, I think we're really just hitting home.
It's always about the why. Like, let's talk through this. Let's figure this out because if we can figure it out together, we're both going to become a result that we're happy with, you know? Yeah.
And like in their defense, like just a book on this, I do feel like if I were critiquing a dish, I, you know, I'm not a culinary expert by any means. I cook like as much as the normal person does, but I'm not at all versed in like fancy culinary techniques and all that. So if I was given a dish and I was told to critique it the right way, the way a chef would I would not be able to do that. And I would probably say like if I didn't like it, I'd probably give like really similar feedback and just be like, I don't like this.
And it could be it could be something easy that they could fix that a chef could fix. And I'm not going to know that just like a client would not know that with a design. So I feel like it is like, there's definitely a level of empathy that we all have and like every designer should have for sure. But it's just about like again, like getting to that why, like just asking those questions, having the conversation so we can dissect that and really get to the heart of what the client wants and what's going to make the campaign successful.
Pending upside up better. Well, thank you for listening to the marketing movement. If you don't already know, we have another podcast with our CEO, State of Demand Jen with Chris Walker. So give that a listen as well, if you haven't already and listen to the rest of the amazing episodes that our other team members have done on the marketing movement.
Thanks guys. Thanks for listening, everyone. We hope this out.