300: 300

Hi, welcome to Classical Stuff You Should Know, a podcast about classical education, old books, old ideas, how to read, literature, and how to cultivate an intellectual life. My name is Graham Donaldson, and I'm here with my two friends in learning, AJ Hanenberg and Thomas Fletcher-Megby. Now, gentlemen, there's a problem, and that is, we live, we have a pretty good life, simple, we read books, we go to our jobs, we love our families and loved ones, but I've heard a rumor that a massive army is on the move, and it is marching towards our bucolic little existence. But don't worry, I've got a plan.

If they're going to get to us, there's a tiny mountain pass that they need to walk through, to get to Austin, there's this little hill country pass that they have to walk through, and we can make our famous last-ditch stand in that mountain pass, and there's nobody I would rather die shoulder-to-shoulder with than AJ Hanenberg and Thomas Fletcher-Megby. Grease ourselves up, boys. We've been training for this since we were, what, like six? That's right.

We've got Stanley from Neighbors. Yep. Stanley Burr. Stanley Burr.

I would have also accepted an LMO reference for the opening of this. Okay, that's right. Yeah, I can't take it in my hand. In our blood, right?

Okay. So this is going to be... Oh, episode 300, by the way. Episode 300.

Yeah, it's a big day. We're going to talk about the Battle of the 300, the 300 Spartans. So good. So I think this is fairly straightforward, but just to say that this is going to be part four of the Herodotus series on book seven of Herodotus.

I don't think there's anything confusing about that. But this does imply that every episode that came before this is a soldier that the Persians have slaughtered. Wow. Only 299?

Yeah. We've got a lot to go, then. There are millions of them, according to Herodotus. That's tough.

No, we've got some work cut out for us. So we're talking about... So I was in high school when the movie 300 came out. It's been a very important moment for me.

Do people still watch that movie? I don't know. They did Sin City. They did...

They looked pretty good. They were just so different. They were like, I don't like these things. They don't look good.

Do they not look good? They cannot hold up. So I was watching clips and the digital effects really, but you can tell the difference. It's 20 years ago, right?

Yeah. It was 2006. So it doesn't exactly hold up, but I remember there was probably no movie I was more pumped for, right? Yeah.

It's just like comic books. It's action. It's kind of historical. Yeah.

It's very exciting. It was fun. Yeah. I don't think kids watch it now, I think.

They might watch it in that movie club if they're going to. I don't know if it's too over the top. So we made some references here. So there's this Battle of Thermopylae, which is where we're going to get to, but there's a lot of lead up to get there.

So there are a few kind of primary historical sources, and we've referenced a few of them. So one of them is Herodotus. It's book seven of the histories. It's been years, but we have done episodes on books one, two, and three, I believe, of the histories.

So this will be the fourth one of them. I don't know anything about this. I get all of my historical information from popular movies and collections. That's what we did talk about in our AMA.

And I've watched the 300 musical, wherein I get all of my historical information. I think there's a 300 musical, though. So there are two other primary sources. Hopefully you're well-versed in that, Thomas.

Well, thank you, as one should be. So yes, those two other primary sources are from Zacharias Snyderos, and the other is from Franco Smilridis. Greeks? No, it's Zack Snyder and Frank Miller.

Sorry. Zack Snyder made a movie about this based on a comic book. We're not actually going to talk about that. We're going to talk about the Herodotus stuff.

So you made reference to the battle, but I guess just to, we'll jump in and go from there. So what is this history about? What is Herodotus' history about? So Herodotus is kind of tracing the buildup to this war, this war between the Greeks and the Persians, so conveniently the Greco-Persian war.

And starting in book seven, we're actually kind of like at the height of the Greco-Persian war. So I've skipped over one through three. We're kind of building up to it. We're getting a series of kings.

There's a famous battle at Marathon, which we're not going to cover. That's in book six, so it's right before this. But book seven opens with news that the Persians are having a bad time at Marathon, and so they've been rebuffed in their attempt to invade Greece and to kind of take over the Greek people. Is everything whip?

The ocean? That's actually today. We're going to hear about that story. So the king at the time for Persia is Darius, and Darius gets news of this defeat.

He's bummed about it. There's this back and forth of Darius is starting to get old, and they have to figure out who is going to take over, who will be the king, who will lead Persia after Darius dies. And do you all remember who that king is? We talked about this right before.

But who is the king who will take over? It is King Xerxes. It is Xerxes, indeed. So Xerxes is not the oldest son of Darius, and Darius has many sons, many children.

But Xerxes is able to kind of make this work because, if I'm remembering correctly, he's the first son born after Darius becomes king. So he kind of claims that he's closest to the king lineage, as opposed to an older son who is kind of closer. Is he the dopest kid? I feel like at some point you need to pick your awesomest child.

Darius kind of weighs the scales. He wants Xerxes. And Darius is coaching Xerxes on how to make the best argument that he, Xerxes, should be king. Don't give me free gender.

I want to be able to take my coolest kid. We're going to hear about Xerxes this whole time. And so now, maybe we'll see the failings of Xerxes. I don't know if the other sons would have been worse.

There's a chance that they wouldn't have done this battle in the first place. But the way it's set up, it's kind of like outside of Xerxes' control that this whole military campaign is going to happen. So Xerxes is determined to be king, and Darius had started this war, and Xerxes wanted to figure out whether the war should continue. So he calls together all the people of the court and has everyone share their opinions.

So he lays it out to them. Hey, we're in this battle. We want to get everyone's thoughts on what we should do. And what is the first opinion that's offered?

We shouldn't do this. Let's just cut our losses and go home. That's the second guy. The first one's like the suck-up.

The first one's like, oh, wise king Xerxes. Your father was very wise. You were very wise. We are the greatest of warriors.

We have the greatest number of warriors. We have nothing to fear from any other army. We have nothing to fear. Therefore, we should go and conquer.

In fact, it's our birthright to go and do this, right? And Xerxes hears that. He's kind of nodding. And he's like, we don't have to do this.

Like, we have just lost a battle. We can cut our losses now, just like you're saying. We don't need to invade, double down. We can just stay home.

We can be happy. And we don't have to push for war. There are these stories about the... So Herodotus is a Greek, right?

So like, he'll fit these things in. I'll point to a few as we go. The Greeks are so cool. They're so strong, so powerful.

And like, no, I've heard a tale that no one can defeat them. And so this uncle kind of lays that out. And there's silence. People are like mortified that he would stand up and do something like this.

And Xerxes is like, if you were not my relation, if you were not a family member, I'd kill you on the spot. Like, completely unacceptable. This is not... Obviously, we're going to go to war.

Like, this is what we're going to do. But then Xerxes goes home, and he's like, I think I made the wrong call. Like, I think I'm leading us to our deaths. Like, this could be a huge mistake.

And you know what? Was that good on him? Yeah, I was a second guessing. Yeah, I had some thoughts about it.

And he is like, you know what? Tomorrow, I'm going to call everyone up, and I'm going to cancel this whole thing. Like, we're not going to war. We're not going to do this.

He goes to bed, and he has a dream. Oh, no. And in this dream, he has... Like, an eagle is eating a snake, and there's, like, a sunbeam, and there's, like, a dying Spartan or something.

Yeah, this one's like, it's a person who comes to him. I don't think it is clarified in Herodotus, but in... There's a play called The Persians, where it's Varius, who comes in a dream to him, and is like, Hey, you need to go do this battle. Yeah, like, again, that's a different source than this one, but it's like...

A phantom is how it's translated here. Comes to him, it's like, you must do this battle. Like, this is completely necessary. This is very important.

You need to go and do this. He wakes up, and he's, like, terrified, because he wants to back out. He's had this vision that he actually needs to go to war, and so he calls that uncle who had told him not to go to war, and Xerxes says, Hey, I just had this horrifying vision, but I'm worried that it's not real. I'm worried that I'm kind of, like, second-guessing myself, that the dream, the prophecy isn't real.

And they actually have this interesting back-and-forth where the family member he's talking to acknowledges that most... The quote is, most of the visions visiting our dreams tend to be what one is thinking about during the day. Interesting. As you were reading this, I'm realizing how much Paradise Lost references.

Oh, is that coming from this? So there's, like, the counsel of what to do, that dream where someone says, like, you know what, the only reason you dream that is because you were thinking about that the day before. Adam says this to Eve when she has a dream about eating the fruit. Really?

But it's actually Satan whispering in her ear. And Adam's like, don't even worry about it. Sometimes we just think crazy things. And he's like, okay.

And then it was, like, Satan trying to put in her mind the bad idea to go do. Interesting. So, yeah, at least at some point... It's almost word for word.

Yeah, yeah. So, and I don't know if this happens next in Paradise Lost, but Xerxes is like, hey, I think it's Astabanos is the uncle. Hey, can you, uncle, dress up in my clothes, sit on my throne, and then go sleep in my bed? Because if this is really a vision, you're going to have the same vision.

We're going to trick the spirit into showing up to you. And then they'll prove that this is... They fall for it every time. Spirit's tentatory.

Yeah, they're not going to... The uncle's like, that's really dumb. Like, obviously, spirits are not stretched by these things. Like, you're better than this game.

You know better. But Xerxes, like, insists on it. Oh, I got the crown. Xerxes is like, you're going to do it.

You guys have to. So he does it. He dresses up like Xerxes. He sits on the throne.

He goes and sleeps in Xerxes' bed, and the vision appears to Astabanos. And the vision shows up, and the spirit, like, says to the uncle, are you the one who has been so forcefully dissuading Xerxes from marching against Hellas, as though you are so worried about him? Well, neither in the immediate present nor in the future will you escape punishment, trying to avert what is destined to happen. All right, so the spirit knows it's not...

Correct. But he does get the vision. Astabanos, he's already been enlightened as to what he must suffer if he refuses to him back. Dang.

So he basically says, like, you are going to... We're going to, like, mess you up if you don't... Yeah. Get in line.

Like, this is happening. I, spirit, have told him what to do. Like, back off, buddy. And...

Wow. What's the guy's name, Astabanos? I think I've mixed an R with an S. Artabanos.

Artabanos is like, all right, well, I'll get you with that. He goes to Xerxes' like, we're doing what you said. We're doing this battle. This is happening.

So Xerxes has tried to back out, but ultimately decides to do this. But there's a problem. And I'm not very good with geography. I assume you all will know more about this region than I do, because you all, like, teach books that kind of occur around this area.

I guess probably AJ specifically. So they are in what is today Turkey. So kind of like Western and Northwestern Turkey. They want to get to Greece and also conquer everything in between.

Naturally. Naturally. If you're going to be there, we're not. Are there any issues with that path that you can think of off the bat?

I do not know. Mountains. Mountains are a big problem, and that's where the Battle of Thermopylae comes from. Like, if they want to go as far as they want to, they need to pass through some mountains, which are a problem.

The other is that there's water in between each of these places. So there are a bunch of, like, very nice plains along the coast, which is easier to march through, but you have to get there first. And from Turkey into the span of land, there's water that they have to cross. And so they have to figure out a way to get from Turkey into the mainland of where I think they want to just build boats.

Kind of. The Persons are always pretty good at, like, using, figuring out how to manipulate water for military advantages. Like, Cyrus re-diverted the river of Efrates to invade Babylon. Yes.

There's another one where he punished a river, where the river, I think it killed a horse of his. This is, like, this is book two or three. So the river killed one of his horses, and so they build all these little, like, streams off of the river, and they spread the river out. Yes, the river, like, loses its power.

Yes, exactly. But he calls it Punishing River. He's in that river, too. Yes, that would also do it, for sure.

So I don't know at that camera what they do. So it's about a mile from... Oh, and they build a big bridge, a big pontoon. They do.

Or like a big floating dock. Is that what this is that I'm showing you right now? Oh, that's a bridge of boats. Yes.

So what they do to get over the... I don't know. It's about a pontoon bridge, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah.

So what they build... Our listeners are like, what are you talking about? So what the Persians do is they get a bunch of boats, they toss an anchor down, they put them right next to each other, and they put wood over all these boats, and they build a bridge. They build a bridge with all of their ships, and there's all this stuff about how they're worried about the animals not making it across, and then freaking out and running into the river, and so they actually lay dirt along this path as well, and they put walls up on either side to trick their animals into thinking that it's just a regular path.

So it takes them years, I think it's four years, but it takes them a long time to get this put together, but they do it, and they cross what's called the Hellespont, that's that one-mile gap between Turkey and the mainland. Why not just use the boats? Yeah, it would take too long. To get people back across, especially with animals, I guess?

According to Herodotus, the first number he gives is 1.7 million people, and he later revises that number to say 5 million people. That's a big revision. So the 1.7, I think, is just the infantry. The 5 includes the 1.7, and then he adds some more, but the first number he throws out is 1.7.

Now, there were very likely not actually 1.7 million Persians or 5 million Persians coming as a part of this. This is, Herodotus is doing his best. It's for you. I think I mentioned before, Herodotus has two titles.

One is the father of history, the other is the father of lies, and so there are things that enter into the stories that you look at, and you're like, I don't think that's correct. Before, it was the hippos look like horses, or something like that. How do you know that's not? Is it in your notes on the book, or do you look up afterwards?

So historians put the number at somewhere between 50 and 300,000, so a much smaller number, and what people point to is where he gets the 5 million is that there's this way of counting. They're called myriads, so where we get the word myriad to say, hey, there are lots of them. A myriad is a unit of a number of people. I think it's 10,000 people, but please don't post me in the comments.

And so basically, it's like, there are 50 myriads, but not every myriad is necessarily full, if that makes sense. So it is actually 50 myriads. There are 50 groups of people, but they're not actually the full 10,000 people at each group. Does that make sense?

Yeah, okay. So that's the theory. So a myriad at most could be 10,000. Yeah.

But if you're like 100 dudes, you just still be in your myriad. And that's like, you're not really sitting there counting all 10,000 people in each group. That's the whole point of this thing, is to simplify counting by just saying how many of these groups are there. They're not all full.

They don't all have the 10,000 people in each group. Yeah, it's like I split my kids in the groups, and then the next week's their absence, and one group, you know, there's not the right class number. So one group has two, one's got one kid left, because it's two are on the track meet. I was just going to say, it's like a fire drill, and you're like, I missed a couple.

Yeah, you're on the Europe trip, and all right, groups are off. All right, groups are off. Yeah, close enough. Close enough.

So during this building of the bridge is where Xerxes gets mad at the water. They're building the water, a violent storm descends upon it, and there are people that die on the bridge, because they're building it as the storm shows up. Xerxes was infuriated when he learned this. He ordered that the Hellespont was to receive 300 lashes under the whip, and that a pair of shackles was to be dropped into the sea, and I've also heard that he sent others to brand the Hellespont.

So they beat the water. Yes. They toss in shackles. They toss in shackles, and then they branded it.

Yes. Did weather issues not come up in the plenary sessions? They should have thought about this. Weather is a recurring issue for the Persians, which I think Herodotus sets up as like, they are against nature.

Like, they're doing something so wrong that the Earth is... We're going to be spirits, though. I said, you've got to go do this. Or they have to do it because it's wanting to lose.

Well, that's mine. They don't have a question of motivation of spirits. In the way they tell it, also, I think the spirit has wings and just, like, flies off at some point. We don't know if that is a Persian spirit or a Greek, or, like, we don't know their motivation.

So, I think it's a little ambiguous. It's a UAP. I'm wondering how those guys felt that we're actually doing the whipping. Like, what is my job?

And so, those assigned to this joyless office went to work on it, while other engineers were building new bridges. So, I think... I don't know. That's a pretty easy day.

If it's better, build a bridge. I'll get lashes. I'll drop the shackles into the water if you want. Well, this is one of the famous stories, right?

Whipping the water. There's, like, just a little note at the end of that. So, I told you the punishment to the Hellespont. So, thus, he ordered that the sea was to be punished, and also that the supervisors of the bridge over the Hellespont were to be beheaded.

Oh, there's a little more going on there, too. A little bump that that doesn't get the front and center treatment. Okay, so... Top of time.

Not ideal. So, but they cross over this body of water, and they're starting to make it into Europe. They're getting into Greece, eventually. So, there's a long section where they just...

It describes the size of the army. There are tons of people. It's terrifying, and no one should go against it. But also, Xerxes has with him a former king of Sparta.

So, this is in Book 6. He got sold out by his people. It was like a petty political squabble. But he gets kicked out of Sparta.

He gets captured by the Persians. He's with Xerxes as they're going in. So, Demeritus, I believe, is how you say his name. So, Demeritus is with...

He got in trouble at school. Demerit, right? Yeah, it's right there in the name. And so, Xerxes asks him, like, hey, what do I need to know going into this place?

And Demeritus... Every Greek is awesome! Well, that is what he says, and... They're so strong, they never die.

Yeah, and they're super strong. But also, I'll pose it to you all, again, this being something you thought about. What motivates them to fight? Like, why are they going to defend against Xerxes?

They're home. Yeah. Where are they from? Yeah.

They've got, like, sheep and kids. And because the Spartans love it. Say more. Like, they are a militant society.

They are trained for military when they are young. And we're talking about the Spartans. Yes. They're flipping built for it.

Yes. That's what they love. They train their kids to do it. It's a raison d'etre.

They don't have someone to fight. They have no reason to be alive. There's that... There's also this interesting...

What Demeritus says, and again, tell me if this kind of doesn't matter with what you all would think about the Spartans, is that they fear breaking law more than they fear death. That there is something higher that they are pointed to, dedicated to, working on, other than... So, the Persians come in, and I don't remember if it's Demeritus who says this. It's a quote at some point about the Persians, that they have many men, but few soldiers.

Mm, I agree. And they're good. And it's mostly a slave army. They are forced to be there, and they're there because they'll kill them if they don't accomplish this and do what they're told to do.

While the Spartans... Or if your boss says, like, push harder, boys! You're like, only if you're watching me. Yeah, like, why would I?

Because you are, like, just threatening me to do the practice. Yeah, so that's no way to lead an army. Whereas maybe the Spartans, they, like, they all want to be there. They all sign up for this.

And they have to do it because, like, they have to defend their families. Yeah. Yeah, we'll get there. Because later, it's like, if the Spartans don't stand up, the Persians will march into Greece, and then everything they...

Everything, their families, their possessions, everything is destroyed. So there's no reason... Their culture and whole life. So they have to do this.

This is, like, so true of hockey teams. Stop. Say more. They're willing to, like, skate through a wall for one another.

Whereas then there are some teams that are, like, the playoffs are gravy. It's kind of nice to have. We're professionals. We're going to kind of do what the coach says.

But, like, I'm not really going to go the extra mile because I don't want to get hurt because I've got a career to think about. And, like, these are my teammates, but they're not my brothers. But when you have a team that, like, they all want to die for each other and they want to die for their head coach, like, you've got... That is a team that can make it through four rounds of a best-of-seven physical series.

That's why, like, Tampa's won. That's why Florida's won. That's why Toronto won't win. That's why the Oilers aren't going to win this year.

That's why Vegas isn't going to win this year. Do you think that the USA team in the Olympics this year had... Because, like, that kid got his teeth knocked out and he was still nice. So, Team Canada, they were, like, the best technical team.

They played really strong. And, I mean, it was really close. But there was just something where the U.S. team had...

You could just tell that they had this magic of believing in each other. Whereas the Canadian team was like, these are the best assortments of all of the best players in the world. But they just didn't have the sort of, like, swagger. They just lacked a little bit of this.

That's in hunger. Of this. It's like, I know that the cool, the awesome line is coming up with the arrows in the air and then the Spartans did a cool thing. Like, Team USA had that, like, yeah, I'm going to be smitting my teeth out like chiclets and I'm going to be scoring the game-winning goal.

Whereas, like... Yeah, like, I'm going to throw the teeth in the garbage and then get back on the ice. Whereas, like, Team Canada was like, if we just keep executing our automated set routines of passing, we will eventually score. You know, and then you just didn't have...

Right. Yeah, yeah. So, anyway. That's fun.

This is from the conversation with Demeritus and with Xerxes. So, again, Xerxes is trying to understand, like, basically, he's like, how much am I going to win this battle? Like, how much are the Persians going to destroy the Greeks? And Demeritus is like, hold your horses.

This is toward the end of it. The Lacedaemonians, so the Spartans, right, are in fact no worse than any other men when they fight individually. But when they unite and fight together, they are the best warriors of all. For though they are free, they're not free in all respects.

For they are actually ruled by a lord and master. Law is their master. And it is the law that they inwardly fear, much more so than your men fear you. They do whatever it commands, which is always the same.

It forbids them to flee from battle, and no matter how many men they are fighting, it orders them to remain in their rank and either prevail or perish. Isn't that good? I feel like we need to have, like, the last Mohican soundtrack. I play that when we read the Iliad battles, like Achilles versus Hector.

It's so good. That wasn't the Skyrim soundtrack. They're both very good. So, from here, I'm going to skip a bunch, because it's super boring.

Don't tell me. I would listen to Halo 2. It's the Halo 2 music, right? Halo's a little too slow for, like, a hand-to-hand combat battle.

Oh, fair. Okay. Halo 1? Halo 3?

All 2? Did I just say 2? Yeah. The Halo soundtrack.

Just Halo. Halo's a little slow. So, a bunch of stuff happens in the middle. It's like, again, I think I mentioned it's the tour of the armies.

Not Interesting Battles, where Xerxes just, like, he goes to a town. What he does is he sends out envoys to a bunch of different towns. He asks them for dirt and for a gift. And it's, like, them pledging loyalty to him.

And basically, everyone does it. He doesn't send these to Athens or Asparta, because he doesn't want to get disrespected. So, he doesn't even give them a chance to reject them. Because he knows they're going to be, like, use that.

Here's dirt with poop in it. Yeah, and his whole plan is just... Don't fatten it. Yes.

Since that's where he's going, he, like, knows that he's going to have to fight them anyway. And so, he doesn't even bother. But he knows they're easy to walk to towns. They all throw feasts for him.

The Persians apparently only eat one meal a day. And all of the towns are very thankful for that, because if they have two meals a day, they'll be bankrupt and lose everything. That was something that Cyrus instilled back in the day. He thought that, like, you should work before you eat.

And no one should have breakfast. And you should only have one meal a day. Cyrus was, like, the OG intermittent fasting. I like it.

But there's, like, a Greek comedian who's like, good thing, they don't eat two meals a day. Am I right? Anyway, there's a guy in the middle. What's the deal?

What's the Persians? Perfect. He's really good. So, I'm telling you.

So, all this is... The Persian army is moving along the coast, essentially. And then they want to get to Athens and to Sparta. So, I think I had trouble with, and again, maybe you all know this, is that Greece has a bunch of mountains.

You all know this. And so, to get to where... Is that the Pyrenees? No, what's the name of the mountains in Greece?

You told me, man. I can't remember. I bring it in the rest of the comments. Do you want to know the mountains in Greece?

Google it. They're great Pyrenees, right? I don't know. I will Google it.

I'm not sure how to say it. Be wrong. It's okay. Say something wrong right now.

I suck. Thank you. So, to get to where the person wants to go, they have to cross through a bunch of mountains. To get...

Are you really proud of that one? Greg is losing it. I'm glad we have YouTube to look at the video. So, to get...

Five million, probably not that many. To get hundreds of thousands of people to Athens and Sparta, you need, like, an easy way to get there, or else you're not going to climb mountains to get to these cities to attack them. Is it the Pindus Mountains? You tell me, man.

I don't know. That's what Google is saying. That's Graham's answer. If you hate that...

Don't at me, bro. Is that... No one says that anymore. No one says that anymore?

Cool. I'm really hip, so I'd love to say some more things. So... Six-seven joke.

I got it. My children have been exposed to six-seven, but they don't know what it means. No one is. Spain.

Spain. Not the same. So, Persians are getting that way. They need a path to go through.

And so there are a couple different options. And the Greeks, they go to one pass, but the Persians don't end up going there. The path that they... The Persians want to go through and that the Greeks will defend is at Thermopylae.

So, Thermopylae, it's just a way to get through the mountains. And Thermopylae literally means hot gates. It's like thermal springs. And these gates are like...

Polymorphs. Well, just like a narrow spot where people can... You have to get down to a narrow aisle of people to get through this path. Like, go through the path and have a Soken.

Yes. It's a great time. I would love to go to Greece. So, they have to go this way is the point.

In the background, there's all this other stuff, the most important of which is that... So, I'm talking about the land path that the Persians are following. There's also... They have ships that are also following along the coast.

So, you have a land army on the... This is my obvious statement today, on the land side of the coast. And then you have the... On the water side of the coast.

So, was that clear? Was that good? Sure word. I can do it one more time.

And so, they're following together, but land and water. But there's a big storm. Which one? Yes, I know.

Sorry, I'm confusing them too. Well, actually, the Persians get mixed up too because the Navy gets caught in a storm, but there are too many of these ships and they don't have a place to dock them. So, they try to dock in the middle of the ocean and they all bump into each other and they lose 400 ships. And this is not like the Greeks doing something incredible.

This is just like the weather. A bad storm. That's a huge number of ships to lose. Yes, and a huge number they have in the first place, right?

I think Herodotus got exactly right. I have no reason to question this number. He had to yell out his number as he went down. What is that?

So, Herodotus is... I had this thought also. Herodotus is writing basically 50 years after this stuff is happening. 50 to 100, depending on the event, obviously.

So, it's not that far away from when the thing's happening, which is just interesting. It's as close to contemporary. Full-timers in the bar. Yes, and that's how he's able to get this information.

So, all that is happening and then that brings us to Thermopylae. So, you know, again, because I'm steeped in mid-2000s comic book movies, I was expecting there to be only 300 people as a part of the battle. There are actually a bunch of different groups that are there. There are 300 Spartans.

There are 300... Is it Hoplites? Is this a term you all familiar with? What is a Hoplite?

A lifefoot soldier. Yeah, so it's like... I think it's named after the shield that they hold, but like... I thought it was a spear.

My name is a shield. It's just because you do a philip, right? Yeah, that's exactly. And so...

And which was like brand new military technology. And so that's to that point from before of when they work together, they're unstoppable, right? So, here are the groups. This is book seven.

So, the Hellenes who were waiting from the Peloponnese and then there's a list of a few others as well. So, it's not only the 300. There are like a bunch of different people who are there as well. So, it's a few thousand that we get up to.

But it's still a few thousand against potentially hundreds of thousands of persons that are coming their way. Or the 300, like, hey, you guys stand back. We're going to get there. So, there are multiple days of combat.

And at first, they're feeling pretty good, right? Like, you cannot get past them without going through this mountain pass. And so, it's a meat grinder. You stand out.

You're going to get tired, but there's also like the other side, it gets too dark and they like literally can't attack you anymore, right? So, there's kind of a built-in pause. Do you do a clear-out every now and then? You have to, right?

I mean, like, I assume you're attacking people who want to clear out the bodies because if I'm defending, I don't leave them there. And so, the Persians try all kinds of different things. They have, again, there are like hundreds of different people groups that make up the Persian army. They throw a bunch of them at the Greeks.

Nothing's working, right? They have this, I completely skipped over this, there's this elite group within the Persians called the Immortals. The Immortals are a group of 10,000. Well, that's in the movie, isn't it?

Yes. Now, in the movie, they are like supernatural creatures that have sweet masks that they wear. The Immortals are, the real ones, the warriors in the Persian army called the Immortals. So, they are distinguished for the way they dress.

They put on a lot of gold and they look fancier than the other soldiers. And they're also hand-picked out of the entire army. You gotta pay for those skins, though. Yes, you do, yeah.

It's paid away in the Persian army, is that the problem? You gotta buy your V-Bucks to get you out of those V-Bucks. Then Apple takes their cut. This is really important.

And what Herodotus says is why they're called the Immortals is there's a set group of 10,000. First off, it's a cool name. Just want to be clear on that. Second is that there are exactly 10,000 of them.

So, when one dies, someone gets promoted? Yes, you're going to use for 10,000 and no one dies? Well, it's like the group is immortal, right? Because you always maintain that 10,000.

But they're the elites. They are the top warriors in the Persian army. And we're so cool. How can we do with 10,000 of them?

That's a pretty big number for this is our elite group. By 10,000, I guarantee you it means a myriad. Oh, it's 30 guys. Yeah, sure.

And so, you should discount basically every number I say except for the Greek one because it has to be 300 because this is episode 300 and if that's not right, we've got a problem. It'd be weirder if I had it. You've got an area of episodes. Some of our listeners feel that way for sure.

So, nothing is working for the Persians. They are not able to get through and even Xerxes is threatened a few times. It's like he has to jump out of the way of it's not arrows but it's like spears or like he's threatened by this combat. You know that all the guys are like fucking spears or Xerxes like putting bets on it.

So, why can't you just do some reasonable books? Some punk in the back? Now, this is they're at an impasse and this is a matter of days we're talking about so they've not been fighting for long but Xerxes has many problems but among his problems is that even if it's only hundreds of thousands of people he needs water and food and like he expected a quick battle that he would sweep in conquer everything and then get out of there but he's got a few people. Yes, and so he can't be there for a long time.

That's not going to work for his army. He's got a burn rate. He has a burn rate and he has to get enough resources to make up for it so that's the problem and also he is like losing lots of people and so his like grand army So ultimately there is a local person Ephialtus who came to speak with Xerxes expecting to win some great reward for telling the king of the path that led through the mountain to Thermopylae by so doing he called caused the destruction of the Hellenian station there. This man later fled to Thessaly in fear of the Lacedaemonians.

Oh, yeah, they do not like you. And during his exile, a price was set on his head by a group during a meeting of another group. After a while, he went back to where he was from, where he died at the hands of Athenades, the man of Truckus. This Athenades killed Ephialtus for another reason, which I shall explain in a later section of my story.

I went to the footnote. Would you like to know where he discusses this? It's never discussed again. He doesn't tell us why he was killed.

He's killed for another related thing that Herodotus doesn't tell us. We can. A local Greek reveals a path to Xerxes that is going to get around the, I'm going to say the Spartans, but like the Greeks, the warriors fighting there. And then it's just going to be an issue of getting flanked on both sides.

Now you have combat on both sides and your small army is not going to be able to survive that. So the Persian army goes through this mountain pass, makes it to the other side, and everyone fighting understands what's about to happen. They understand that they had an advantage that they're losing very quickly, and they eventually will see the guy. And it's just not going to work out.

So they have a choice because if you're going to die, you just leave, right? Take your chances. Yeah, so you either take your chances and you could defeat them, but it's not going to happen. What are you going to tell your wife when you get home?

What are you going to tell your kids when you get home? Because that's the, earlier it's this law that is ruling the Spartans, right? And so they have something higher they report to, and their life is not that thing. So saving their life is not a win for them if they have to dishonor themselves.

There are two people who will, at least two people, who are remembering offhand. I'm getting very nervous about the comments right now. I don't know. That's not that.

Who are, who survived this battle. And one of them is basically told to go and report back to the Spartans, like, hey, this is what happened. And he is exiled for the rest of his life and ultimately will take his own life out of shame for having survived this battle. You really told him to go back and give the news?

Is the Spartan where they're like, either come home with your shield or on it? Is that the, It's not in here, but basically that's the sentiment. And that's certainly like, the law they are responding to is that. Whenever I have kids who have to leave my class early for volleyball or soccer, I will always say that.

I'll say, either come home with your shield or on it and none of them know what it means. But I keep saying it. And so one day some kid's going to figure it out and be like, Mr. Dawson just basically said I need to go die for Veritas or be victorious.

Well, if they're going to miss class, you'll come home with your shield or on it. It was also said that another of these 300 men was sent away as a messenger to Thessaly and that he survived. His name was Panatis and when he returned to Spartan he suffered such dishonor that he hanged himself. Yeah, it feels a little unfair, but you know.

It does. They send you out to give the news so that nobody else dies. They flagged that in the footnote but it's almost like your duty is to be dishonored. I don't even know how to think through that.