The marketing movement by Refine Labs. All right, hey everybody. This is Tori Kinlick from Refine Labs VP Demand Generation. I'm here with my colleague Evan.
Everyone Evan here also VP of Demand Generation at Refine Labs. And we are recording this episode of the marketing movement talking about hiring demand gen talent. It is a big topic. There are a lot of companies out there right now understanding the importance of demand generation.
Certainly a lot of demand gen marketers out there right now as well. And so for companies like Refine Labs that are looking for some of those folks, great situation to be in. But at the same time, we need to be very particular about the types of candidates, the type of folks that we want to bring into our company and feel that are going to be a strong fit here. So Evan and I decided it would be great and hopefully valuable for all of you listeners out there to understand a little bit more about our process that we follow at Refine Labs.
We do have a three step interview process that we take our candidates through when we are hiring for directors of demand generation. And so we'll go into detail on each of those three steps and some of the things that we're looking for from our candidates in each one of the rounds. And then also really talking through how we're able to uncover some of those soft skills that might not necessarily present themselves on a resume or even in one or two of the conversations that we would have with our candidates. So where I want to start actually is, although we have this great and proven process that we follow here, identifying those soft skills, those intangibles is a real big challenge and is something that we take seriously here.
So I've been throwing this term around over the last couple of years. A trait that I think is really important, maybe the most important thing to me when hiring marketers and especially in demand generation. And it's what I call figure it out ability. And so when I've mentioned this before, some people have asked me like, how do you question, how do you find someone that has this figured out ability trait?
And not an easy question to answer, but I feel like the process that we have here at Refine Labs, it does exactly that. And so to break down this kind of figured out ability a little bit further, the way I see it is, which is a combination of IQ, EQ and AQ. So emotional quotient, intelligence quotient and awareness quotient. IQ obviously is just the intelligence, the person, the ability for them to really understand a subject matter in depth, emotional quotient, more around kind of the ability to do their work and practice with empathy.
And then the one that I think is lesser known, but incredibly important to really add to the mix here is this AQ, this awareness quotient, really a person's ability to understand their own strengths and weaknesses in terms of the environment that they're working in, how aware they are of themselves, of others, and how to really kind of utilize their skill set in the best way possible. And so although we have this great process for really vetting demand-gen marketers that we get the opportunity to speak with, trying to find those with the figured out ability trait is I think what we're really looking for within all of this. So that's what we kind of want to talk you through today. And although we're going to jump into these three steps at the interview process, there's a really important part of this that we're probably just going to talk through lightly today, mainly because it could probably be an entirely separate podcast on its own.
And that's the sourcing of candidates. And so Evan, I know you kind of had some thoughts around what Refine Labs is doing right now that makes it much easier for folks like you and I who are conducting a lot of the interview process, that we don't have to focus a ton on sourcing because it's almost like an organizational effort here. But could you kind of share some of your thoughts around just around sourcing talent and especially how we're doing things at Refine? Yeah, for sure.
So I think that this is such an important part of the entire interview process is how we're getting candidates interested in Refine Labs, what's drawing them to want to apply or what's getting them excited about potentially applying. And that's all comes through like word of mouth and community building. I'm sure all of you are familiar with the podcast, but you see the engagement across LinkedIn of all of our employees. And that's not mandatory.
That's voluntarily, people are excited about sharing what they know and their knowledge. And with that comes excitement where people are raising their hand and wanting to learn more about roles and this community building and this word of mouth, where we often have a ton of conversations before people even move into the interview process, where they want to know just like five minutes of our time, what's it like there, what's really exciting. So I think that whole sourcing component is so important as it's across our organization. We look at it, that's where we can learn a lot about candidates and their excitement and eagerness and move them through the funnel.
So a lot more of you said there, but that's kind of how we think about it. Yeah, and that one definitely hits home for me because that's how I ended up here. I followed along the podcast for probably a year or two before I actually decided to apply to refine labs. And I think that the importance of that podcast, the fact that our CEO is out there evangelizing the principles of the company, what we care about, how we do things here, why it's a little bit different, talking about what it's like to work here.
These are really, really important aspects of sourcing high quality talent. And it definitely makes it a lot easier when a person knows exactly what to expect when they're coming in to speak with us and potentially if they were to get off of the role, really already having a bit of a peek inside of what it's like to work here. And I think one other thing that definitely has gotten a lot of praise in some of the conversations that we've been having with candidates is some of the work that our people operations team has done around standing up things like the before you apply page, right? Where we've got different people that have been in the roles, some video interviews, just kind of sharing their thoughts about the day to day, some of the challenges that we work through.
And so I think that combined with the transparency that we have around salary and everything else, this just radical transparency that we have here at Refine Labs absolutely makes it much easier to source candidates because more often than not, they're coming into us instead of us having to go out and recruit them. Although that is something that we're certainly doing a lot of right now as well, considering how fast the company's growing. So yeah, I think that's probably about as deep as we're gonna go on the sourcing aspect of this. Although we do acknowledge it's a huge part of hiring demand-gent talent.
And yeah, maybe we'll be able to pull in a couple of our colleagues from the People Ops team in the future to unpack that a little bit more. Sure, let's get into it. Cool, so yeah, what we're gonna kind of run through here right is this three-step interview process that we have. It's broken out into an introductory round, which is much more of a conversation than anything, a technical round where we really like to see our candidates in platform in things like AdWords and LinkedIn ads and Facebook ads.
Are they really able to navigate around those platforms and know what they're doing? And then the final round, which is kind of this mock presentation, a bit of a puzzle, if you will. And those three steps, I think, it's certainly something that has proven successful for us. I put a whole lot of faith in this interview process.
And Evan, I know when you and I were talking the other day, I was kind of saying that, maybe I even put too much faith in the interview process. It's kind of crazy. I've just seen how difficult it can be to get through it. And it's led me to a point where I know that saying it's run around a lot, right?
Like that respect has to be earned, not given. And my feeling is that with the interview process that we have, because it is so tested, because it has been vetted, and we found such incredible talent through this process, my feeling is that I trust a person immediately when they come in the door, because they've been able to make it through all three of these steps. And we've really looked at them and analyzed their skill set and their fit here from a lot of different angles. So yeah, that's what we kind of want to shed a little bit of light on for all the listeners out there.
And hopefully there's going to be some good takeaways for you all to weave into your own interviewing and hiring process here. So let's talk first about the intro round, right? I think the biggest thing that we're looking for in this interview round is really trying to determine if the candidates experience and their marketing principles are going to align with the way that we do things at Refine Labs. I know that the term culture fit gets thrown around quite a bit as well.
I prefer the one culture ad, right? We don't want to just bring in people that have the exact same mindset and think and talk and do everything the same way that we do. That's just kind of a nice way to build a cult, but not necessarily a good marketing environment. And so Evan, when you've been kind of handling some of these intro stage calls in the past, what are some of the things that you're asking about?
What are some of the things that you're looking for from candidates there? Yeah, a lot of that comes down to just the authenticity of the conversation, right? We really just want to humble people that are excited about the role or excited about what they're doing. So a lot of that is built around what's working for them, understanding projects or campaigns or campaigns in flight that they're really excited about.
That's where we can really start to see where the passion lies, what are the goals they're looking for, but also taking a step back and kind of pushing some questions in a way that maybe they're not used to answering early on. Like how are they fielding some early objections? Let's say a campaign is not performing well. It's really important for us to understand like how they're looking at the data how they're translating the data to different cross-functional stakeholders or how they're using those insights to really kind of push things forward.
And that's ultimately what's so important in these roles, especially as a director of the man-gen, is being able to move everyone along with you, kind of this ground, so to speak. And so just having conversations about what's working and kind of learning a little bit more about the ins and outs, that's where I like to start. Yeah, I love to ask the question, what's your best performing tactic right now and how do you gauge that performance? I think asking someone a question like that, it really does unlock a lot about them as a marketer, as a person who would ultimately be responsible for analyzing marketing performance.
But like you mentioned, if there is a little bit of pushback on the answer or the tactic that they happen to mention, how they're able to maybe go a little bit deeper and even get that alignment just on an early intro call with kind of a peer, and how they're able to talk through these things and navigate any of those potentially rough waters, because that's certainly something that is required of a lot of demand-gen marketers today, is they're going to be faced with headwinds, they're going to be faced with challenges and so how are they able to tackle them and are they able to do it with grace? Yeah, and I think that's one thing that's so important, right? We can all kind of be order takers, we can hear what the goals are and kind of understand and execute. Any marketer can execute a goal, right?
At the end of the day, if there's an MQL goal or more lead generation goal, but it's like, how are they re-crafting the narrative and how are they spending it a bit to pushback? We don't want people, obviously want people bought into the Refine Labs philosophy or at least think about it holistically, but we also want to hear what's working for you or what different angles you've taken. So it's just kind of this, multifaceted marketer and how they're approaching different strategies. You might not be executing B2B to managing like Refine Labs's in current state, but recognizing signals of why it would be better or some of the conversations you've had leading leading those conversations, excuse me, with like your CMOs, why that is influential to kind of this interview process and some impactful.
Yeah, and I can always tell that the conversation's going well when I find myself just moving away from a lot of the questions that I'm being asked to post to the candidate and instead it really just does become a casual conversation. I mean, I love talking marketing with marketers, right? I get a lot of enjoyment out of that. And so all of a sudden, if the conversation kind of goes sideways a little bit and we go deep talking about a specific tactic or an experiment that they ran, to me, that's just as valuable as any other specific item that we're looking to take away from the stage because on top of really trying to understand how what their skillset looks like, I'm also trying to gauge if I would enjoy working with this person, right?
And so if I find that 60 minute call flies by and maybe I'm even taking away a couple of new ideas and experiments that I might want to go back and try, that's usually going to bode really well for the candidate. And that means that I certainly could see myself working with them. They've got my wheels turning and are also open to engaging, seeing other perspectives and points of view. And so I think those are some of the huge positives that we're really looking for from candidates at that intro stage.
Yeah, and so I want to add there too. I think you brought up an important topic is these interviews are with people in the roles too, right? So it's unusual for sometimes when people go through the interview processes with other companies, they're not necessarily interviewed with the people that are doing the work or have done the work. So these conversations are truly tactical and understanding what's working and being able to have that back and forth that's again genuine.
And we're able to kind of dig deeper and ask questions. And I think that's where the excitement comes in or you can kind of say, oh, that's actually a great idea. We hadn't thought about that, tell us more. And so when you're able to level set with somebody in the same kind of industry as well as role, it's really fun to challenge their assumptions and have them challenge ours, right?
We want people to push back and ask us questions too. Like what is working for you and why? And just, you know, keeping the conversation fluid, we don't want to just ask questions. We want to see the dynamic of the conversation knowing that that's what it's like to be in front of clients and moving things along.
For sure, yeah. And I think we certainly give our candidates a lot of background information that they could utilize within the interview process considering how frequently our team is putting out content on LinkedIn and our two different company podcasts. And so theoretically, it would be really easy for a candidate to just do a little bit of homework and identify some buzzwords and some topics that they feel like we want to hear from them. And that's not such a bad thing, right?
That they've done their homework. They've studied up a little bit. They're prepared. But I think the important part that we keep hitting on here is that when we try to intentionally poke holes in some of these things just to kind of see how they're able to handle these rebuttals, these objections, it's not because we're trying to be intentionally difficult, intentionally obtuse, anything like that.
It's because we're really trying to see how would they handle this situation if they were having a conversation with one of our clients because this is very much what it would be like working in the director of demand general. Not all of your clients are going to be 100% bought in with our philosophy, with our approaches. There is inevitably going to be some challenges that are going to come up. And so really trying to see how this person would handle some of those challenges, that's another thing that I think is really important for us to be able to take away from that intro conversation.
And if we feel like they've done a good job with it, I certainly feel a lot more confident pushing them through to that next stage of the interview, which is the technical round. So maybe a good segue there. I think the technical round is, for lack of a better term, it's very technical. It is a true test to see somebody's proficiency in the ad platforms.
Not that our directors of demand gen are going to be expected to be inside those platforms, whether it be inside LinkedIn building campaigns every day or inside Salesforce building dashboards from scratch. That's not necessarily what we're looking for from our candidates at this stage. But we do really need to understand that they have that proficiency that in a pinch. Maybe they could jump into those platforms and build out campaigns and dashboards and all that.
But Evan, I know this is a big part of the interview process that you've been leading as of late. Tell me a little bit more about how you handle the technical round, what it's like, and some of the things that you're looking for there. Yeah, I think that this is such a unique part of the interview process that I've never gone through prior to interviewing with repine labs. It's really the hands-on where kind of tactical execution and live screen sharing to see what the users are digging into and why.
But the whole purpose of this is really to see strategy and motion. So you can talk about it. We've all been in those interviews where we can just repeat ourselves over and over again. We can anticipate the questions that are coming.
And that's awesome, right? Because we want to be able to be passionate about what we're talking about. There's also this element of actually doing it. And that's where this technical interview comes into play.
So we look at platform to towards point. We really want to kind of understand, linked audiences are a big thing that we focus on. We want to understand how we reach in the right audiences. And although the director might not be in platform building them out, they're very much guiding the strategy and need to understand the inputs of those audiences and how that could influence the bigger demand creation component.
So for me, when we dig into the technical and the candidate sharing their screen, it's really having them walk through, essentially, this brief and creating this campaign to hear how they're talking through it, why they're thinking of different angles, why are they maybe adding some job titles or removing some functions. All of that is that dialogue again, from the beginning as we kicked off. Like, that's the whole purpose of this interview process. It's like, how are you guiding people through your thought process?
How are you thinking about things differently? And how are you aligning to ultimately, you know, the goal of this role is to demand creation. So are you truly able to build these campaigns and platform that reflect that and not really kind of resetting back to old ways? So if there were, let's say, one big red flag that you might be looking for or even hoping that a candidate does not kind of showcase there during the technical round, what would you say that might be?
I think people losing sight of audience size and budget implications. So for me, that's kind of a big one where, like, understanding what's realistic when the budget that we give them in the brief versus the audience that they create. And that's a big disconnect where you can understand, like, the component of reach and frequency of the brought up. Those are the areas that we really want to understand, because that's so important as we think about ad fatigue and moving people through this awareness piece of our paid social advertising.
So if they're not really speaking to that or that's an area that I really like to dig into kind of aggressively, and tell me more, tell me why. Tell me how this would work or your thoughts here. And all of that kind of unpacks the bigger conversations when clients come to us with budgets. And where we're basically telling them, this is what you're going to do with the budget you give us.
And this is why we believe it. So just being efficient with the money is one area that's from a platform perspective, like LinkedIn ads, especially that we like to dig into. Yeah, for sure. And I think any time that we see the candidate is checking off the audience expansion boxes, when they're building their audiences, all of a sudden, that's something that my eyes might dart to immediately.
And I'd love to kind of press on that a little bit, right? Make sure that I'm kind of giving them a chance to speak to why they decided to select that, or to even backtrack a little bit. Because I think that even something that might be as nuanced as just checking or unchecking that audience expansion box, I think that that also speaks volumes about just their overall understanding of the platform and different ad placements and how we're really viewing things from the perspective of the potential audience. And so, yeah, to me, I know that that's always a really big one.
And I definitely made sure that when I was going through my technical round that I wasn't going to make that mistake, because I'd heard it mentioned enough times by Chris and some of the other folks that were fine-lapse over the years that it was like, OK, I know that if I end up leaving this box checked, I'm probably going to disqualify myself here. So definitely wanted to watch out for that. But yeah, I think that that's just a great example, right, of even if a person is not spending their day-to-day in the platform, they should still have a high level understanding of some big no-nose and even some makeup of some campaigns and audience builds that might lead to a lot of success down the road. And so I think that's really at a high level what we're looking for most of that technical round.
It's proficiency. It's the ability to speak intelligently about something that is a little bit black and white in terms of building these audiences and clicking the right boxes and all that. But yeah, how are they able to really vocalize some of what we're seeing them do on the screen share? Yeah, I think, too, one thing, as you were talked about audience expansion, we all have these little ones that stuck in our brain as we're going through this process.
The campaign objective is a big one to focus on and really kind of sell why you're choosing the one you're choosing without giving anything away. But that's something to really hone in on. Because that's such a, there's so many nuances between what those objectives can result in and why are you selecting the one you're selecting. So from a paid platforms perspective and the technical, that's what we look for.
And we really like to drill into CRM data. That's kind of the second phase of this technical round. And no, we're not in a Salesforce dashboard having users double click into it. But we are sharing screenshots of lockups of dashboards and wanting users to talk us through how they would evaluate performance.
What are the peaks and valleys? What are some of the double clicking that they would do? Like the reports that they would pull or the flags that would trigger it. Let's say we saw demos declining, but we saw opportunities increasing month over month.
Like what's that storytelling? Are they able to articulate that, right? Efficiency's being gained. We're driving more higher intent conversions into the funnel.
A lot of this more tactical execution is so important because the directors role, that's the expectation, right? Like the therein, the CRM, they're able to pull, they know the data better than the clients. And so this conversation is very much an opportunity for us to understand those evaluation skills. What are two to three reports they're using and why?
It can be an open-ended question like that, but that gets us to see behind the scenes a bit more about what they're digging into and what's important to them and how that, you know, are ultimately goal is revenue. So are they looking at the right reports that are impacting revenue? Yeah, and I think you mentioned something there that I think is really important when looking at some of that CRM data. And it's the ability to tell a story from your data analysis, from your interpretation.
There's certainly a lot of different ways to unpack data, especially within Salesforce. There's a lot of different ways to slice and dice things. And so I think one of the big things that we're definitely looking for is, are they able to digest the data quickly and interpret it? But then are they also able to kind of craft a narrative around what they're seeing there?
And then also how they might look to make a pivot, right? Because I think one of the biggest things in demand generation, whether it's at refine labs or not, is there's gonna be a lot of experimentation. Sometimes things are gonna go well, sometimes they're not. And so when you identify that gap, are you able to put together a gap or mediation plan?
Are you able to maybe lay out some different tactics or strategy that you might recommend that could help to fill that gap, or that could help to course correct some of the performance? And so yeah, I think you can really tell a lot from a marketer by their ability to just quickly look at a CRM dashboard, understand the performance, and also figure out what the best road ahead might be. And it's certainly something that they would be asked to do quite a bit of in the director of demand general here at refine labs. It's a figure it out, right?
Like kind of going there, but I always encourage people to make assumptions. And that's when they like from the interview process, they're going through this, you don't have obviously all the data, but making up some assumptions is equally as powerful when we're storytelling and crafting a narrative from beginning to end. So digesting the data, inserting what you think or your hypothesis and then moving that story along through the interview is just equally as important as really that's what we're trying to look for is kind of that thought process. So technical theory, chance on.
Exactly. And so I think that that's a good time to, let's say move into this last stage of the interview process, right? So at this point, if someone has shown us that, okay, you know, they're a person that we would enjoy working with, not only can they talk the talk, but they can walk the walk. You know, now we get to the final stage of our interview process.
And this is effectively a mock presentation. We on the refine lab side like to do a little bit of role playing, you know, we'll have someone kind of play the role of the CEO, that someone play the role of the CMO, maybe someone to play the role of like the sales leader. Because again, you know, these are oftentimes the folks that you would be meeting with on a regular basis in the director role. And on top of that, you know, we provide a prompt ahead of time that gives the candidate a number of different data points and really, you know, a big part of the picture, but not the entire thing, right?
We're kind of giving them the pieces to the puzzle, but it's not all the pieces. And so part of that is, you know, and it's very intentional, but part of that is also to kind of see how they're able to get creative with filling in those missing pieces, how they're able to really kind of detail out their assumptions and how much sense those assumptions make. And so yeah, this kind of final stage of the interview process is really where we're trying to see if the candidate can put it all together. And I think that this is one of the, if not the most important part of the interview process, because this is where we can really see if, you know, what it would be like to put this person in the role, how comfortable would we be putting them in front of clients?
What type of coaching do we think that they might need either immediately or in the future? And so yeah, this last stage of the interview process, I remember, you know, when I went through it myself, I think when I was speaking with a person at Refine after I finished the technical review, talking about, you know, when I wanted to schedule this, you know, this final presentation, I think I was able to do it probably within 48 hours. And personally, I wanted a couple more days to really think this through and make sure that I was assessing it from every possible angle. Since there was a lot of missing puzzle pieces there, I wanted to make sure that I was really kind of filling in the gaps the right way.
But yeah, Evan, I know you've sat on kind of a number of these final presentation calls over your time here with fine labs. What are some of the things that you're really looking for from a candidate throughout that process? Yeah, because we give 100% freedom and control of the approach, right, to the candidate, we just kind of outline the certain pieces that we have. Again, it comes back to like, what assumptions are they making and what data are they incorporating in order to drive business results?
At the end of the day, what we're doing is to drive business results. So are they able to make the right assumptions and use the inputs to effectively tell that story of what's the outcome or the anticipated outcome? Yeah. And I think for me, this is really where I like to test the candidate's ability to handle objections.
Because like we spoke to before, most of our clients are not going to be 100% on board with every single thing that we recommend or put in front of them. And so how are they able to continue on with their presentation if they get thrown a curve ball, someone starts poking holes in some of their rationale or their logic, is it really gonna throw them off? Again, are they gonna be able to kind of handle these things with grace or are things gonna spiral out of control quickly? It's a very important test, so to speak, that we need our candidates to pass in order for us to have the confidence that they're going to be able to do this job effectively and that they're going to be able to be a strong representation of refine labs in front of our clients.
So yeah, I think it's tough, right? You hear a lot of different hiring managers out there say, I wanna give my candidate kind of a little bit of a homework assignment, but I don't know if it's going overboard. And yeah, what's your thoughts on just how important this lasts and final stages to our process and really envisioning if the person's gonna be a strong fit or not? Yeah, I mean, sometimes you can tell them the first 10 minutes if it's gonna be a fit or not.
And a lot of that comes down to those first couple slides or that first narrative where they're talking through the goals that they're trying to meet. So for us, it's so important to kind of, I guess I always go back to this. Like what's an objection that every one of us has gotten, right? And the objection is attribution and how that influences your presentation.
So I think that that's one of the biggest challenges that people face is telling that story throughout it. For sure, yeah. And for me in particular, I really like to kind of dig into some of the modeling and forecasting, right? Again, recognizing that they don't have all of the necessary data points, but they are still asked to really deliver some type of plan or presentation that's going to help this client reach their growth targets.
And so, yeah, kind of really seeing how comfortable a person is not just presenting a strategy, but also putting the numbers behind it and ensuring that the plan that they're putting in place is going to make economical sense that they can handle any pushback on it as well. But yeah, it's definitely a challenging, but extremely important part of our interview process. And I think probably the one that is closest to what it's like to really spend a day in the life of a director. And so it's also great when we hear from a client that they really enjoyed it or had fun going through that, because that means that the same can probably be said for how they enjoy working in this director dimension role.
Yeah, and I think also we've had people kind of go through the process that kind of come out of it and when we have the conversation, if it's not the right fit currently, but they've learned so much. And they're so appreciative because it is a chance to really see what the job is like. And I've had candidates say to me, like, I'm not ready for this or this was a bit more than I anticipated, we actually getting into the weeds. And that's equally as valuable for them as well as us, right?
Because you made it that far, we know that the soundlights there, we know that some of the skills are there and they just need to sharpen the tools a little bit. So I guess that's a good segue too. And kind of the next steps after that presentation. Yeah, for sure.
And I think what we want to kind of throw out there, right, is this important note going out there to maybe anyone who's considering applying to refine labs or has applied and maybe didn't get the go-ahead that they were looking for. So right now with the stage that our company is in, where we are growing extremely fast and we are looking for directors of demand generation who can ramp up really fast, we effectively need a perfect fit for the role. And if a person, a candidate is anything but a perfect fit. Unfortunately, right now we have to turn them away, even if we see a ton of potential, a ton of upside, but maybe they're just not quite ready to step into this role immediately because they need a little bit of work or a little bit of coaching.
And so one of the things that I think is amazing about this refine labs process and more specifically the way that our people operations team has designed some of these things is that the radical transparency continues past the interview process and into the feedback, whether it's good, bad or indifferent. And so Evan, tell me a little bit about what your stance is on sharing some of the feedback with candidates and why you feel like that's a really important thing that our team takes seriously. Yeah, I mean, we cannot be better unless we know the areas of growth. And I'm a firm leader in coaching, mentoring, and just sharing transparent feedback.
That kind of starts at the very beginning when we open this up about transparency through the process from beginning to end. Transparency about what the interview is like, about salary, about the role. But also if it doesn't work out, right? We are big fans of sharing actionable feedback, whether it's a link to resource or whether it's different podcasts that we really enjoyed beyond the refined labs ones.
I might hold that story. All of that to help the person build out those skills that maybe they were, didn't showcase during the interview or maybe they need to sharpen a little bit. So that transparency is so important to us too because it's relationship building, right? You're still part of the demand-gen community.
We still want you as part of the refined labs community. It just might not be the right now. So it might be an open, honest, transparent with that. That just helps build to credibility in general as we look to the future growths in 6, 12, 14 months from now.
There could be more opportunities and there will be more opportunities. So I think that's it. Well said, I think to me, I've always felt that the interview process gives a very realistic preview of what it might be like to work at that company. And so we take that extremely seriously.
And for those listening, if you haven't heard, refined labs is hiring in a lot of different areas right now. And so hopefully for any of those that are considering the director of demand-gen role, which we are still hiring for, which we will continue to be hiring for, hopefully this is helpful for you all, for all the rest of you demand-gen marketers out there looking to hire more demand-gen marketers for your teams. Hopefully there's some helpful takeaways for you here as well. But this has been great getting to chat through some of this stuff with the Evan.
Yeah, any kind of closing words here? No, I'm excited. If you're interested, come check us out. Like I said, we're growing like crazy.
We just hit our 100th employee milestone. So the future's right. But yeah, definitely this has been an awesome conversation. And when we could spend hours talking about, because we're both passionate about talent coming in, but no, thanks, this has been awesome.
Yeah, good stuff. All right, well, thanks everyone for listening. I hope this was an helpful one for you. All right, everyone.