#31 – Leadership and Management – Part 1 – Often spoken about, rarely understood

In this episode, we demystify Leadership and Management: we delve into what sets them apart; typify the different styles; explore values systems, including our own and share our core beliefs. As always, we go below the surface and deep dive into this topic, at a time when it matters more than ever. This episode, on the topic of leadership and management, will be concluded by episode 32. Navigation: Intro (01:34) Section 1: Definition (01:58) Section 2: Typifying Leaders (06:34) Conclusion (38:56) Our co-hosts: Bertrand Schmitt, Entrepreneur in Residence at Red River West, co-founder of App Annie / Data.ai, business angel, advisor to startups and VC funds, @bschmitt Nuno Goncalves Pedro, Investor, Managing Partner, Founder at Chamaeleon, @ngpedro Our show: Tech DECIPHERED brings you the Entrepreneur and Investor views on Big Tech, VC and Start-up news, opinion pieces and research. We decipher their meaning, and add inside knowledge and context. Being nerds, we also discuss the latest gadgets and pop culture news Subscribe To Our Podcast Intro (01:34) Nuno Welcome to our Episode 31, the first of two episodes on leadership and management. Bertrand and I will demystify leadership and management, define the difference between both, typify them, explore value systems, and also share our own core beliefs. As always, no BS. We will go below the surface and deep dive into this topic. Section 1 - Definition Nuno From the ground up let's start with the actual definition of this and a bit of a caveat emptor. Buyer be aware, as they call it. Obviously we will share what we think are great practices of leadership and management, but by no means these are the only practices, and by no means we aim to be professorial about it. Secondly, most importantly, probably by sharing our own views, we're not saying that we are amazing leaders or managers. Obviously, that's not for us to judge, but for people that have worked with us, for us, with us along the years. So that is not the assumption. Obviously, there is some assumption that we have something to say about this topic, otherwise you wouldn't be listening. But we don't aim to be arrogant enough to say that. Maybe starting with the definition of leadership versus management, and this comes from someone I used to work with, a very good friend, but also someone I worked with for a very long period of time in two different roles. The way she would qualify the difference between leadership and management is, if the objective function is to get to hell, a leader is the person that can convey to people with amazing charisma and presence that we're going to go to hell and hopefully we'll come back for sure, hopefully we'll come back, etc. The leader will likely not define necessarily very much how one will get to hell and back, but they will convince people to go with them, certainly the first time around. A great manager might lack the charisma, but the great manager will define the steps to get to hell and back, will be clear about what needs to be done to get to hell and back. They might have difficulty in convincing people to go to hell in that first time, but it will be easier for them to convince them to go or try to go to hell a second or third time, even if they fail the first time, because they have a clearer view of the process to get there. So again, a leader normally, in my opinion, a little bit more linked to... In some ways great aspects of charisma and management is basically linked to great aspects of understanding steps that need to be done and things that need to be done. A great manager might not be a great leader. A great leader might not be a great manager. There are very few great leaders that are great managers. So that's maybe a little bit more flesh around the definition. Bertrand, do you agree with that definition? Bertrand That definition would be fit for Churchill, for instance, Churchill fighting the Germans, fighting Nazi Germany. That's really what he did to rise to the occasion and convince people to fight. I think it's an interesting version. I've never heard this one. I guess you have different type of leaders, different type of situation, different type of CEO, but this one is the benefit to be very generic and very illustrative. Nuno Yes. We should talk a little bit about the origins of management. Management as a so-called science is relatively young. We should go back to people like Peter Drucker—may he rest in peace—people that started looking at management and formulating what management actually is and the different sides and aspects of management. I'm a computer engineer by background. I have a Masters in science, computer engineering, and I had a professor for a management optional, but he was an engineer himself, that used to say, "Management arose from engineers not wanting to do management as a science." I always felt that was interesting. But certainly I think Drucker is probably one of the precursors to management as a science. Obviously, if we look at management in measured ways, we can even go back to, for example, the origins of McKinsey & Company. Mckinsey & Company in the early days was very much focused on measuring activities, for example, in manufacturing, which was emerging back then in the '30s and '40s in the US, and understanding the impact that certain operations would have. Again, management is a young science. Leadership, I would allege, is still probably not a science, still not at that level. But obviously as a science that is young, it's a science that some people still feel is a little bit BS. There's still a little bit of, "Okay, what did you study in college?" Well, I studied economics." And then you have someone else, "I studied management." It's like somehow the person who studied management might not be seen in the same light as the person who studied economics. Economics feels more of a science than management, although one could also say that economists don't have a particularly amazing track record of impact in society. As a science, it may also have some work to be done. For today's definition, we will use both leadership and management at times a little bit interchangeably. But just beware as I said at the beginning, we do believe there is a difference. The leader is sometimes a little bit more charismatic, the person who can convince people without necessarily proof, the person that can go for the moonshot. The managers, sometimes the person is more process-driven, more step-driven. Again, today we'll use it relatively interchangeable just to make our lives easier and your lives as the listeners a bit easier as well. Bertrand Maybe to add to your point about management being a young science, maybe leadership is still an art in some ways. Section 2 - Typifying Leaders Nuno Indeed, it's still at art level. Maybe we'll see developments there that will get it to science level as well, whatever that may entail. Let's start by typifying the different styles, the different styles that we've seen of, let's call it leaders, managers. Bertrand Maybe we can start with one level and go back to leaders, assist manager. There is a typical, let's call him or her, quote-unquote, statesperson, chairman, visionary. So someone who will be very high level, providing very high level vision, high level orders, maybe some tactics, but we will rely on CEO, managers to really execute per se. That type of person, it's pretty typical in many companies that you have a separation between these two roles to function, but some companies don't have that separation. Of course, you have the same person as chair and CEO. In that situation what you might have, however, is a CEO in the organization, someone who will be more focused on the execution side of the business. Every business will be different. What's your perspective on the chairman vision? Nuno It's funny because you can see Chairman Visionary states person archetypes across many large organizations in various different roles, right from VP to directors. Sometimes even individual contributors, which obviously ends up not working very well. Obviously you see it in CEOs. The archetype is defined by people that are always at a very high level, they're always at 30,000 feet, etc. Normally they have difficulty in articulating their high-level vision and what they think they're conveying into actual actions. It's normally very difficult for this type of leader or manager to convey very specific type of actions. Now this type of manager, this type of leader, is not necessarily ineffective. They can be effective, but to your point, Bertrand, they need to surround themselves with the right level of talent. If it's a CEO position and the person is very high level, then they need to have a heck of a COO, they have to have a heck of a chief revenue officer, a heck of a chief product officer, etc. They need to delegate a lot, and they need to work normally with teams that are extremely good at doing that translation, extremely good at understanding high-level objectives and views into actual tangible actions and outcomes. Again, I'm not a huge fan of this type of manager. They normally skew towards, "Oh, I'm so brilliant that I don't need to get in the dirt and define actions and processes," and stuff. They're also normally that people that behave like chairpeople, chairman or chairwoman, and they show up last minute for meetings, and they show up into a discussion where everything is decided and they are the ones, "No, no this doesn't make sense, let's change it all," having a convincing opinion and decision-making logic  They like to leave decision-making as late as possible. They would be what I would call extreme Ps in Myers Briggs Type Indicator. I'm not a huge fan of that type. I've worked with many through my career. Fortunately, nowadays I don't have many in my life, thank God. But it's that type of action. It's the action as if,...