313. Embodied Spirituality for Pastors and Leaders, with Mark Scandrette and Dave Kludt

Mark Scandrette has spent over twenty years wrestling with a hard realization: knowing a lot about God doesn't mean you're good at following Jesus. Dave Kludt spent fifteen years in pastoral ministry learning that everything, down to how you arrange the chairs in a room, forms people. Together they co-teach a Doctor of Ministry cohort at Fuller Seminary built around two words: integral and embodied. Mark is the founder of Reimagine and author of Practicing the Way of Jesus and The Ninefold Path of Jesus, and a longtime friend of the podcast (he first joined us back on episode 112). Dave is the president of Reimagine's board, a former pastor of 15 years, and Mark's partner in this new cohort, a Substack, and an upcoming podcast.IN THIS CONVERSATION:Why "getting more information" doesn't lead to transformation, and what doesWhat Dave means by an "integral" approach to formation, and why it starts with facing the world's fractures honestlyWhat Mark means by "embodied" formation, and the Learning Lab model Reimagine uses to teach by doingWhy the leader of a Learning Lab has to be a participant, not just an expertMoving from a "closed fist" to an "open hand" posture toward your next stepWhy discomfort with failure gets in the way of formation in many churchesHow Mark and Dave use the Enneagram as a formation tool, not a personality quizThe "formation edges" Mark and Dave are each working on right nowMark and Dave's hopes for the Fuller Doctor of Ministry cohort on integral and embodied formationRELEVANT RESOURCES AND LINKS:markscandrette.com — Mark's websitereimagine.org — Mark and Dave's organizationFuller Seminary's Doctor of Ministry programBooks mentioned:Practicing the Way of Jesus, by Mark ScandretteThe Ninefold Path of Jesus, by Mark ScandretteRELATED EPISODES:The Beatitudes and Spiritual Leadership, with Mark ScandretteThe Spiritual Life of a Leader, with Tod BolsingerThe Neuroscience of Spiritual Formation, with Jim WilderSend me a text! I’d love to know what you're thinking!Click HERE to get my FREE online course, BECOMING LEADERS OF SHALOM.