There are many small cities in the United States who could use Columbus, Indiana as a model for what they would do going forward in the 21st century. The small town of Columbus, Indiana is a mecca for modern architecture. With over 60 public buildings by the likes of I.M. Pei, Arrow and Elil Serenin, Cesar Peley, Richard Meyer, Robert Venturi, and many others, the town of 44,000 people is practically swimming in it.
But unlike cities like New York or Chicago or Los Angeles, Columbus' pedigree isn't so often brought into the National Architectural Discourse. Exhibit Columbus, a new symposium and exhibition happening annually in the city, is hoping to change that. Hello, I'm Amelia, and for this week's One-To-One, I'm speaking with architect Deborah Burke, one of the keynote speakers at this year's inaugural exhibit, Columbus Symposium. Burke is also the Dean at Yale School of Architecture and runs her own firm in New York City.
And in our conversation, she reflects on the influence Columbus and Indiana in general has had on her architectural practice. Well, Deborah Burke, thank you so much for joining me on One-To-One. We're speaking just a few days after your keynote presentation at the first-ever exhibit Columbus Symposium in Indiana, where you've already completed a fair amount of work in White River House, the Urban Union Bank, Hope Branch Library, and you're currently working on the Commons Distribution HQ in downtown Indianapolis. I'd like to get to know just your relationship with Indiana and Columbus in particular, but what was your first impression of Indiana from working there and how has that changed in the decades since?
I have been working in Indiana for more than two decades at this point, and I have a real fondness for and deep love for Indiana, which might sound funny coming from a New York City girl. But I found when I first went to Indianapolis, which was to design the White River House, I loved the property, I loved the city, and the city was not quite as dynamic and wonderful as it is right now. And I really loved the people, perhaps most importantly, everybody was so gracious and welcoming. It was an eye-opener for me.
You've also previously remarked that your favorite architect is Arosarinen. Can you elaborate on that a little bit, and is that still true? My favorite architect is indeed Arosarinen, and as you were speaking, that question I was smiling both on my face and deep inside my happy architect soul because Sarenans work really speaks to me. I first started looking at Sarenan closely when I was in architecture school, and what I felt about Arosarinen's buildings was that they were modern but not dogmatic.
They always spoke to the program and the place, and that is what I have always tried to do in my work. So Sarenan for me is a role model of what it is to be a good architect. You also remarked previously that in your time coming to Indianapolis and coming to Columbus, you've noticed that the city has changed quite a bit. Can you articulate that change a little bit more specifically, and perhaps architecturally what kind of implications that change might have?
I first started coming to Columbus, Indiana in the early 1990s when I interviewed to do the Hoch Branch Library, and as Beth Tore said in the conversation at the symposium, that project moved very slowly for a bunch of issues that had to do with the site, and so I was coming into Indiana frequently over many years. When I first got to Columbus, of course, I was a young-ish architect, and I was super excited to see all the amazing buildings, and I walked, and I drove, and I read books, and I loved it, but I loved it solely really for the architecture, because the streets were a little empty, and there weren't that many places to have dinner, and there certainly was no place to have dinner late. And now I find Columbus, and I started coming back to Columbus. I did the library, then a number of years later did the Year When You Mean Bank, and then started coming back to Columbus again when we started working with Cummins on the distribution headquarters building.
And suddenly Columbus was this cool little town, I mean, I guess that's not fair. Cool little city with great restaurants, people on the street at night, some new stores, you can walk around, a new hotel. It felt kind of exciting and hip, and I mean this in the most complimentary way, like a tiny little bit of Brooklyn has been plunked down on the main street, and there was a place to go have a beer with some of the people from my office, and meet the people in the community. So the 21st century Columbus, Indiana, to me, is absolutely fantastic.
And of course you've also played a part in kind of the shifting nature of Columbus over those last few years as being a part of the Columbus Architecture Program alongside Flex of Kevin Rochand John Dungaloo, Richard Meyer, and Associates, Robert A. Stern, Perkins Will, and he could keep listing others who have been in that program. But how is that program for you and specifically your role in it influenced your career overall, and often brought up as something that is made a positive influence on people's arms? Being part of the architectural program in Columbus, Indiana is of course something I mean enormously proud of me, and the office we're enormously proud of, and the Hope Library Building was our first place.
The Public Library Building was our first significant public building, although it's a small building, it's a significant public building in the town of Hope, and in terms of its program, a library that functions both as a library and somewhat of a community gathering space. So it was great experience on many levels. Did it dramatically change my career? Was it like winning an Academy Award as a known actress or winning an MacArthur Genius Grant?
No, it was not. What it did was allow the office to be part of a larger exchange about what is good architecture, and to me, I mean that with the other buildings in these communities, and with clients who were whatever their actual job was, were very knowledgeable about architecture, more than people in many communities across the country are. It gives one a level of credibility. It is definitely an important and meaningful thing to have on your CV, but it wasn't as though when the library was finished, you know, the phone started ringing three times as much as I had before.
And I think the Commons Program architectural program works that way, and that I honestly believe is to the credit of the program and of J Irwin Miller's earliest wishes, because the goal of the Columbus and Diana architectural program is not to make architects famous. It is really to build a stronger, better, more engaged community where architecture is one of the forces that makes things better. Good buildings make good communities. In that way, I think it works exceptionally well, and that's the most important way.
It does seem like, of course, the ambition has always been a local one. It's always been to make the architecture in Columbus a part of the reason why people would want to live there and kind of a draw for the city as well as something to just increase the value of it. But I feel like, and this is something that exhibit Columbus is particularly attuned to, I feel like on a national scale, as you've mentioned, it's not going to have that same oomph as some other huge architecture prize might on an architect's career. And so that exhibit Columbus is aware of the fact that a lot of the native architectural quality going on in Columbus doesn't really have much of a presence on the national stage, or at least one that architects, of course, are aware of.
But it's not seen as kind of like a hotspot in the same way as for architecture as a city like New York City might. So I'm wondering what do you think the potentials are for something like a symposium like exhibit Columbus, which you were keynote speaker, to kind of help bridge that gap between the kind of local knowledge that this is an important place, and this has this incredible architectural history, and the fact that it's professional, and the intellectual knowledge of architects having that, but then bridging that gap to a larger audience. Well, the exhibit Columbus symposium was fabulous. And when I walked in the evening that Bob Stern and I were giving our sort of keynote conversations with our clients, which I thought was also a great format, by the way.
I was thrilled and somewhat surprised to be honest with the number of people who were there. I mean, there were hundreds and hundreds of people there. It was fantastic. And then the engagement with the younger architects in terms of their design ideas for some of the really key seminal important places in Columbus.
That was great too. And in fact, I would say in terms of Columbus having an impact could think about it in three ways. One is the magic architectural tourism, which I think should be exploited more than it is right now. Only those in the know go to Columbus, but everybody should see Columbus.
So that should be encouraged. The second is to have the program, a similar program be introducing other small cities where there is either a leading industry or a leading philanthropist or a small school or college or institution who can take the lead on funding it, but they, good design is good for your community. I believe this is starting to happen in and around Benj and Bill Arkansas with the support of the Walton family, which I think is superb. But there are many small cities in the United States who could use Columbus, Indiana as a model for what they would do going forward in the 21st century.
And thirdly, I think Columbus, Indiana itself needs to think about the 21st century. There is a collection of extraordinary 20th century modern architecture in Columbus, Indiana. There is no place like it in the country or perhaps in the world, but that you'll know that like the 20th century. And I think Columbus needs to think about the 21st century, younger architects, expanding the vision of the program, perhaps doing more things that relate to planning and landscape architecture as well as just architects and buildings and keep the program alive and current.
And I think if those three things happen, then the true gift of the Columbus, Indiana architectural program would live on longer and longer and have far greater influence. So what do you think those key concerns should be moving into forming that 21st century legacy for architecture? Well, I thought when Wilma was spoke at the symposium and he said, you know, a lot of people asked me, how do you get on the list? And he said, I can't tell you or won't tell you or you can't do it or you can't walk before it all of which is great entry when I think people in the audience laugh.
But I assume somebody who is involved with running the Columbus, Indiana architecture program that goes into it next decade, next century is updating the list, architects to include younger architects, and is also reaching out to all of our following account to say if you have a project come talk to us. I mean, clearly everybody knows about it, but just to make sure that it is as alive and active as it can possibly be would be a very healthy thing to do. So I'd like to hear a little bit specifically about one project in particular that is the Erwin Union Bank that you've done in Columbus, which is very much part of the legacy of J. Erwin's Miller's architectural patronage in the state.
So can you tell us a little bit about how this commission came about? So when we did the Erwin Union Bank through the Hope Branch Library, and of course the Hope Branch was a public building and built through the sort of foundation, but the Erwin Union Bank was part of the history of good architecture in Columbus, Indiana, but it was not through the foundation, the Bank hired us to define a branch. And the site was very difficult. It sounds easy, but it was really difficult because it's a tiny building, 4,000 square foot building.
Some people have a bigger than that, right? On a, you know, a certain 20, 100 times its size. So the challenge was, the Bank and ourselves as architects, how to make it visible well beyond its size, and how to have a kind of architectural impact and presence that had nothing to do with square footage. And that's where the idea for the list box came from.
And to incorporate the back through part of the bank and the in part of the bank with equal architectural emphasis, this little shed glued on the back of the building. I mean, like no, no, no, particularly in this location drive through walk in and they need to be treated equally. So what do that honors both of them and Erwin Union Bank's great history of supporting the architecture? Well, as specifically about that project, very much because of what you brought up, which is like the small relatively small size of it and the fact that it is this kind of vernacular project of being a drive in bank.
It's not a very dramatic or very, let's say, a huge expression of some kind of cultural institution or something like that. But nonetheless, it is indicative of kind of a certain kind of regional style for the sort of architectural legacy happening in Columbus. And talking with Donna Singh, who was influential in getting this interview to happen and was on the ground for us for exhibit Columbus, she had commented based on her reading of your recent book, House Rules, an architect's guide to modern life that looking at some of your domestic projects that your style had seen to in a way kind of shift from something that might look a little bit more vernacular to something more of an ascetic modernism. I was wondering if you could comment on that observation and just speak a little bit more to the idea of a kind of Indiana regionalism and it's the effect it might have had under work.
I would say that all the work that we do has a touch of regionalism in it. If that's the right word, I would describe it slightly differently, which is I believe every building should be tied to its place and couldn't be any other place. Sometimes that means that the buildings look perhaps a little bit more like their surroundings. I can't use the word vernacular, but the onings on the front of the Hope Library are about that.
And the big glass volume of the Erwin Union Bank is to try to rival the scale and impact of the big box buildings around it. So the decisions which some people might think of as style are not based on style. They're really based on saying this building can be here and only here and nowhere else. So one more question specifically about this relationship between Indiana and the architecture that you worked on there.
You're currently working on the Cummins distribution HQ in downtown Indianapolis, which is a huge project and has a lot of different aspects to it. But I'm wondering specifically, how do you continue that thread and that expectation of architectural patronage in Indianapolis for a project of this size? The Cummins distribution headquarters currently under construction on Market Street in downtown Indianapolis is a big building, a big building we've ever done. It's still absolutely of that place and couldn't be anywhere else.
Part of the intention was to help with the revitalization of Market Street as it heads further to the east. So the long building and the long frontage and activating that frontage with lobby and retail on the Market Street side, absolutely site specific. The park to the south side that ties to cultural trail. Similarly, it occurs at that location with the cultural trail to the west and the park facing south and the idea that all the offices within the building are Dalit and overlooked as part to the south.
And then the facade we call calibrated and it's calibrated for two reasons. One is the connection to what Cummins does. They're engineers. They build carefully calibrated things from engines to generators to water systems to all the extra things they do all around the world.
It's also calibrated in terms of that location so that it minimizes the solar gain, maximizes the amount of daylight. So architecture is always calibrated to its location and materiality. This calibration is specific to Cummins and to Market Street in Indianapolis. So yes, it's a big, cool, new, fun building, but it's also very specific to where it is and who it's for, which interestingly enough, in terms of our conversation today, brings us back to what I admire and arrow siren.
What's the program? Where's the building? How does that make it of this time and of the place that the building sits? So that's what's happening at Cummins and Downtown, indeed, very excited about it's been open in January.
So the exhibit Columbus event happens every year, but alternates between different programming. This initial event was a symposium and next year it will be a design exhibition. What kind of reflections did you have from this first iteration of it that you would like to see brought into the next version of it so that can improve and kind of just become more of a regional stalwart? I think that the goals for exhibit Columbus are wonderful and they are ambitious.
So year one was a huge success because it was year one and everybody was super excited. Year two, I hope will be a huge success as well because it will be something different. It will be an exhibition of ideas and creative design ideas for a signature Columbus site. Year three is the question.
When it goes back to being an event, not an exhibition, what's the event? And I think that's where the creative organizers behind it with Columbus need to really be thinking, okay, what are we doing this time? How are we taking advantage of what Columbus has and how are we looking forward in a way that will have people come back again? So I would argue for a slightly different format, not that this one wasn't good, this one was absolutely great, but different so that nobody feels they're back around for a rerun, but more that they're, again, they're something new and they're learning yet more from Columbus.
Well, Deborah Burke, thank you so much for joining us on one to one and talking about the exhibit Columbus. Absolutely my pleasure, Cameron. I hope you'll be soon. Thanks for listening to our next sessions one to one with Deborah Burke.
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