490: Tiny Pictures of Knobs

All right, we should at least briefly talk about something that all three of us intended to talk about last week and because we're idiots It just completely slipped our mind to say anything and I wanted to at least briefly Talk about the really really crummy and I would argue despicable events in America of last week Specifically around the Supreme Court saying that Rovers' Wade is no longer a thing and that you know any of the protections that Rovers' Wade gave People particularly women with regard to the right to have agency over their own bodies That that is no longer a thing and I don't necessarily want to go too deep into this other than to say that I think I speak for all three of us in saying that it is my slash our belief that women should have agency over their own bodies What happens to their bodies? I would not find it funny if I was compelled to do things with or to my body without my permission I would not be I would not find it funny if I couldn't get health care that I needed simply because some other people found it to be taboo I don't think it's fair that you know that other people can decide whether or not it's okay for I don't like Let's say for me to get a second me for example like I don't think that's anyone's business but mine and and Aaron's and I find it really disgusting that A bunch of old people seem to think that they know better for Aaron for example Then then Aaron does herself and I really find it quite gross as someone who has lived through infertility we did not have to do in vitro fertilization, but we were very very close to it and Depending on how you read the the rulings and the laws of the land as they exist today You can make a very strong legal argument that in vitro fertilization is now illegal and I find that to be absolutely disgusting because here it is You know so many couples and so many families want desperately to have a child and they would do anything including paying Absolutely egregious sums of money for the privilege of having a child and because this gets swept up in something that some people find taboo It's now questionably legal and I find this whole thing to be disgusting I really think it is inappropriate for me to specify what should happen to anyone else's body And I find that in my personal opinion abortion is health care And I think that health care really should be universal in this country That's neither there and I just wanted to make a plane in public that I think that this is the wrong way I think this is disgusting and I'm not in support of it and and I don't know if that does any good And but I just wanted to make it plain in public my opinion on it And I don't know if you guys have anything else to add or say you're correct on that But I'm all ears if you do oh absolutely I do I mean I can't believe that we've gone back in time on this So like we've gone back what 50 years whatever it's been something like that You know in the in the you know view of time Overall things are better now than they were 50 years ago in most ways But when you take such a big regression like this it really can feel like they're not and this is this is a major regression and a number of different areas for a number of different reasons and the fact is you know Casey you said a minute ago that quote in your opinion abortion is health care and in reality It's it's more complicated than that in reality It literally is health care for a number of conditions You know and people who are who are anti-abortion normally have a fairly simplistic view of the issue And and if you're one of these people listening to the show if we somehow still have any conservative listeners First of all I respect that you listen to the show knowing that we're not conservative Yeah, and that hasn't scared you off and that you're really to hear other opinions good on you for that the view that anti-abortion people tend to have is this very simplistic almost storybook view of All abortions are killing babies and that's it and the reality is much more complicated than that a thousand more complicated than that There are so many sides to this there are so many conditions in which it is literally the only possible outcome to save the mother's life There are many conditions where it you know you have you know tricky problems or literal health problems literal health care is required That is considered an abortion for various conditions or or situations that that happen in real life all the time So even if you think that women shouldn't be allowed to choose abortion for other reasons Which that's a big if and I would question that as well But even if you can set that part aside the reality of the issue is so much more complicated than that And there are so many situations where it is the requirement of procedure to preserve a woman's life Or at least physical and mental well-being that to actually ban it to actually make it illegal is literally putting women's lives in danger It is literally going to result in women dying that is not in that duration It is not a frivolous thing This is not a thing to be taken lightly and anybody celebrating this as a victory I think you don't have all facts or you're willfully ignoring them This is literally a step backwards into a barbaric pastime that we did have where lots more people died who either Couldn't afford to get the kind of you know Under-the-table treatments or to travel somewhere where it was available or who took something more desperately available that that ended up killing them or hurting them We are now going back to that barbaric time in huge parts of our country and this is going to affect thousands of people It's going to result in more deaths more illness more problems If you are still somehow on the anti-abortion side of this I urge you to consider that the issue is more complicated than you think it is and there's lots of situations We personally I mentioned this a long time ago when this happened, but my wife had to get an abortion We had a failed pregnancy at five months and we were about I think one week away from not being able to do it even in New York It was an unviable it was deemed unviable of a pregnancy We had to turn it to preserve her health and her ability to possibly have more kids in the future We had to terminate it that was the required health care move at that time and this was for a pregnancy that we very much wanted But it was you know It wasn't it wasn't gonna happen and and had we not been able to do that We could have had some much more serious problems down the road So I just I urge you out there if you are on that side of the politics of this please open your mind to the possibility that the issue is more complex than you think it is and For everyone on you know the pro choice side of this like us I urge you to just do whatever you can politically to help right this wrong and frankly I don't know how much we can do right now I'm like many of you pretty jaded at America's Prospect right now in lots of ways. I mean this is just one issue of many large recent issues that we're having to deal with that are seemingly going I mean we have a legitimate chance here that our next major national election might literally be contradicted by state legislatures and Possibly the Supreme Court So the like our actual democracy is literally being threatened in very very large ways that I don't think most Americans fully appreciate So we have lots of problems right now But this is a big one and and to have to have regressed so far in such a damaging and dangerous way is despicable And I am you know as we just passed July 4th I am super not proud of America right now and we have a lot of work to do to fix the train wreck We've made for ourselves gonna be more a couple things I'll add in any kind of situation where you're where you're trying to set some kind of Policy or laws or whatever surrounding health care and you're using some criteria other than what unfortunate phrase that we have in this country Which is terrible evidence-based medicine, which basically is just medicine if you're using anything other anything other than What is best for your health to make a health care decision something has gone wrong? And that's exactly what this issue is what would be the best thing to do in this situation?

What does the patient want? These are the things that should be in question when determining what course of health care to pursue? Nowhere in there is yeah, but what do a bunch of other people think about this? I don't care that it has worse outcomes and it feels like well, it's not gonna kill you It's fine Let's just wait to say this already already with these with the decision there's been situations where doctors have been afraid to do what they know is right Health care wise because they're afraid of getting sued or losing their license because they're in some terrible state that has terrible trigger laws that took effect as soon as the Roe v.

Wade you know thing decision came down right? That's not the right decision to make for the health of the patient It's like well, they didn't die You know like there's like we have to wait until they get worse because it has to be only to save the life of the mother and most life isn't Threat now, so let's wait until her life is threatened and then we're allowed to do the this is not how medicine should supposed to work Let's wait until it gets worse because then we're allowed to do the thing We can do something now to save her and it would be the right thing to do but actually some people don't like that They're not here. They're not the patient But we've decided these laws have decided for us that we have to make a decision based on something other than the best outcomes of the patient This is setting aside all the other outcomes that are talking about women will die They'll be worse outcomes for everybody that we worse outcomes for children They'll be worse outcomes from others to be where that comes for everybody involved This law and this decision it runs counter to all that so that's terrible nothing I'm from the chatroom. So I'm saying like this is that the Supreme Court didn't you know in band abortion Just made a state's voting issue with the Supreme Court doesn't suppose to set the policy for everybody What the Supreme Court is supposed to do in theory and practice this very grand But in theory is they're supposed to interpret the laws in light of the our sort of foundational, you know things like the Constitution or whatever and the reason that you know that we have a Constitution and a Supreme Court is Even if the majority votes I think we should you know bring back slavery and the majority votes in favor of which honestly in this country I sometimes I think it would pass The Supreme Court is to be there to say hey actually we have we have existing laws and decisions on the book that say even if everybody wants this It's not a thing you can do it's like something easy the first amendment, you know Oh, I think I should be all to you know said a lot of no one's ever to say anything mean about me I'm sorry We have a foundational document and that will hopefully be correctly interpreted by the Supreme Court say no even if more the majority of the country wants That law it doesn't fit with our system abortion is no difference like in the Roe v.

Way decision Which was decided and then you know subsequently upheld it's part of the right to privacy that the state can't come and tell you What can or can't happen to your body right and that's what's been overturned and it's a terrible decision and hopefully like It's a big step backwards. It's easy to tell like oh maybe from the lens of history we can tell what was better No, you can always tell if some group is fighting for rights and some group is fighting against them the people who are fighting against them are always wrong I just never it never goes the other way. It's like women want these rights, you know and gay people want these rights or whatever It's you can tell when you're there you don't have to wait in the future So this is obviously a bad decision. It's taking us backwards or you can like look at the rest of the world or you can look at it Oh, come anyway, it's a bad situation.

We all hate it. Hopefully things will get better We'll all do what we can to make that happen, you know if we still have a democracy in the next several years I will say to you on that point which again that is a you know You might think this is hyperbolic. I assure you it's not this is literally a risk that we have to face because it's not like an accidental thing That's happening to us. It's a thing that people are doing there is there are groups actively lobbying that have been lobbying for decades to make this happen You know, it's not it's not something that happens accidentally or like whoops looks like rove you and right?

This has been some people's lives work They're there are active agents trying to drag us backwards Yeah And there are now there are also active agents trying to basically give state legislatures the ability to overturn election results that they deem You know quote suspicious, which they read this as code for we lost like so You know if you think there were some shenanigans with you know the trump team suggesting that our whole election should be thrown out because they lost You haven't seen anything yet because of a whole bunch of stuff going on at the state levels that are that's very very scary And so I urge you all vote in local and state elections even if it is not a presidential election year because a lot of this stuff kind of goes Kind of fuzzing with the radar at times You know during elections and at times when there's not a lot of voter turnout because it is not a presidential election Vote in every single election that you can every single one vote make your voice heard and if you don't follow the the you know Particular politicians at that level that's fine. Most people don't vote however you feel is you know for the party or people or Whatever it is that you think will be least evil because not a lot of people show up to vote And so if you do like on those non-peak elections it matters it counts and we really have to defend our democracy at all levels local state and federal because I'm telling you those are under significant attack and as the upcoming elections are you know Soon, you know we have midterms what this year right? We have the presidential election another couple of years and I'm telling you it's gonna be rough You know you thought this past election was a little bit rough with the state of our democracy I'm telling you it's going to get worse And we have to be ready for that and we have to start defending against that and rolling back some of these terrible things so that we can Literally have democracy. That's that's what we're fighting for among other things You know we have lots of other major issues.

We have this terrible abortion thing. We have all the gun problems We have so many issues But the foundation of our democracy is also literally under attack right now to the extent that most people don't realize So please get out there and vote in every single election that you can if you need a voting guideline Here's your guideline if someone who's gonna be in charge of the election says no matter what the people vote for They're going to make sure the outcome is one way don't vote for that person Like it's like that's their one job is like okay Our state is gonna vote say in a presidential selection and the rule is whoever wins more votes in the state You know gets the electors and they say I'll do that But only if my favorite person wins my favorite person doesn't win I'm going to ignore what you voted for and decide that my favorite person was there literally people running on that platform and winning They are winning their elections They say I want to be in charge of elections in the state and by the way no matter what happens with the vote I'm going to make sure that my person is the person gets the electors because if my person doesn't obviously election was a scam and a fraud and you know Those people are winning elections That's why we're all scared here because they say they're gonna do that It's not a secret they that's their platform and then they get the most votes in the state and they're gonna be in charge of the election So that's why we're all a bit scared of it. Yeah, it's right out there They open and I will again say and maybe a little further if you vote for a politician or a political party That cares more about winning than about votes being counted properly and actual democracy happening You are not American you are anti-American you are anti-patriotic you are anti-democracy If you want to be an American patriot here because you celebrate on a birthday all the flags and everything you know what that flag means That means democracy that means votes counting And so if you support any politician or party that tries to interfere with votes counting you are anti-American and might as we come in trees I'm concerned on that note Alright, so I talked we spoke last week about how I'm now using an M1 Mac mini-splex server And a handful of people wrote to say is that working because nobody nobody apparently not many people are trying to do this right now And so people wanted some feedback it is a bit early to tell I think but I will say that That I was watching or I was attempting to watch something that was a 4k video Implex but it was encoded in web M Which is I think what is that Google yeah code? Or whatever the video was encoded web M and it did not want to play on my Apple TV and Plex got very upset about the fact that the Mac Mini wasn't transcoding quick enough for it that being said what I did was because on me I used Don Melton's incredible other video transcoding scripts I put links in show notes in order to which is basically like a front-end for FM Peg and I converted from web M to Hvc or h2 65 depending on I think they're one and the same or at least in this context are one and same And anyways once I did that I tried again and everything was good to go So if you have I don't want to make any like broad statements, you know, I don't know if all web M is bad I don't know if just 4k web M is bad I haven't really done enough testing on all this but certainly 4k web M did not go well for me against the most recent Apple TV that exists You know, which is what 17 years old now?

So if you're like me and you tend to sort things in H264 and H2 65 I think you'd probably be fine But if you are a little bit more omnivorous and don't really care what things are trained or encoded as and just try to throw it at Plax which is one of plaques and advantages then you might be in for a little bit of pain So just something to think about I'll report in again if I have any other discoveries of any sort But it's worth thinking about and speaking of M1 things and in this case actually M2 We have gotten a date just earlier today actually we got a date for the M2 Mac book air and when John will be feverishly mashing the keys on his old and busted Intel Mac Pro John You'll be doing a Friday at 8 a.m. In the one two time zone. Yeah, we are my m2 Mac book air then although You know with availability things especially like oh, we have to be ready at 8 a.m. Eastern time I'm there I'm ready to order ready click the button does that mean it will be available on the educational discount store Day-to-day or is that gonna be later anyway?

I'm still the just determined or this to the education So I did the math to see what the actual discount is and it's not great It's not like it used to be where you get like a thousand dollars or something It's it's gonna be like a hundred and sixty dollars saving on the config I'm getting which for people are curious and to Mac book air space gray 24 gigs of ram one terabyte hard drive and probably the two Hard drive s to whatever and it did the power adapter with the two USB C plugs of 35 watt two-port adapter That's probably gonna get and I'm also gonna get up. Okay, probably Yeah, so that's my plan. I'll be there at a a.m. Trying to order this thing.

Well, you know it goes good luck God speed I really think these things are gonna fly off the shelves if you will because I know a fair number of people that are You know queuing everything up ready to rock in order to grab one of these and they certainly from everything I've read and seen They certainly seem like they're damn fun computers and Marco I mean you're the one who actually handled one briefly so you know better than either of us But they seem like they're gonna be great machines Oh, I'm still trying to figure out like do I have a use for this thing somewhere in my house? Because I just want one I'm sure I do because they're so it I'm telling you it feels so good when you pick it up It's like it's so nice. I just want one. I don't like I got one one too.

I actually might I kind of do have some uses for it So I thought I will say here we go I do I do wish I like more of the colors better like I if I get one it would probably be the silver one But I'm tempted to go with the midnight just because it's different But I know in in practice It'll just be like too dark for me because I know I saw it was very dark and it was covered in fingerprints So I think in practice I wouldn't like it as much but it's at least like new and interesting and different it has that going for it So honestly, I think if you're buying the map of air you can't go wrong with any of the colors it comes with It's a space gray. Yeah, I think really folks The problem is is that I am the one who is most recently bought a computer and this is not computing in Marco's world And so he needs some reason to be the one with the machine of the three of us That's what I do actually I do actually have like some some uses for it potentially But it's I gotta figure out if I actually if this is actually the right move from here or not A quick pihole tip from Todd White's all This is probably relevant to four of us But there might even be dozens of us I noticed a while ago that when I was using Safari and Safari specifically often But not well, maybe not often but occasionally it would start to load a page and just kind of sit and sit and sit and sit I'm gonna gigabit internet connection and it would sit and sit and I do have you tried going to the the microwave tower thing for Verizon Ultra Fest 5G wireless network and can you try going to get bits with a fast? No, I have not tried wave for this because I think Todd solved my problem And so Todd writes a couple of iOS releases ago in Fortes worth. I've seen this on Mac OS I noticed the far we just stopped loading pages after a few tricks or ticks on the blue progress bar This wasn't affecting other browsers I recently discovered that turning off hide my IP address in the Safari settings fix this My guess right side is that Safari was looking at trackers and DNS getting an address for my pihole and then apples Relay servers were trying to connect to that private address and timing out I have no idea if that theory is right But if you go into Safari preferences on the Mac anyway, it is in the privacy tab There is hide IP address from trackers and by turning that off Which I generally wouldn't generally recommend but it did seem to fix the problem for me So if you are one of the dozens of people afflicted by this issue give that a role safe it helps We are sponsored this week by Workcheck a new original podcast from Atlassian makers of teamwork software like Jira confluence and Trello You know our workplace today are changing quickly But which of these changes are actually going to serve us best?

Workcheck takes workplace practices things like agile at scale off-site dogfooding and they separate the hype from the helpful in each episode to Atlassian's debate how the practice should be applied if at all and Workcheck takes your most pressing questions about the ways that we work together and has just got the best arguments on either side hosted by Christine de la Rosa the ways of working a brand lead at Atlassian and you know never more important thing about this stuff You know a lot of us are staying remote a lot of our head back to the office So this season they're debating some wonderful questions one of us So they've done is about wearing pajama on a zoom call what about what do you wear on the bottom half is out of the frame? You know, let's let's debate that a little bit see how it might be affecting your performance at work And what the history of dress codes can tell us about where work where is going next in another episode They tackle the four-day work week So if you fantasize on Friday afternoons about the luxury of a three-day weekend They actually debate this and take into the potentials and pitfalls of this four-day work We scheduled some generating gloves around the world and ask is the grass really greener So it's a wonderful podcast check this out go to work Whatever your podcast app is and look for work check that's what's called work check It's an Apple podcast overcast all the different apps that you might get your podcasts in work check We will also include a link in the show to find it yourself there But once again, it's called work check by Atlassian It's a great new podcast examining these really cool questions about the future and present of work. Thank you so much to work check for sponsoring our show By now pay later Rob say our rights without getting into the details of the MPL and credit cards the basic game Apple seems to be playing is That they have much less progress. That's why the rewards are higher for phone authenticated purchases It's a side effect of having good authentication functions aside from all the reasons the podcast already mentioned There's also more basic insurance or financial technology game here where you post the lowest risk customers in exchange for marginally better service And iPhone is a good proxy to that.

Yeah, that's the advantage Apple has the same thing with car play of like, you know Whatever was 79% of customers and they wouldn't buy car without car plays like how is that possible 79% of the public doesn't have iPhones? Why would they care about car play? Ah, but 79% of new car buyers apparently do so yeah apples got customers with money and it's got a fairly good way to authenticate them with all Of its biometrics and Apple ID and security and everything so they can afford to skim a little bit more off the top for their financial transactions And then a little bit more on bit code deprecation all the faculty writes I've been working on some LLVM stuff that requires adding functionality to LVM IR and one of the things that came up in the process was forward compatibility of IR slash bit code as far as any of my mentors know Apple's the only LLVM user that cares about forward compatibility of IR and during My work I noticed that nobody has done the work upstream in LLVM to keep forward compatibility test complete since LLVM eight or nine Which is several releases ago? I believe 14 is the current release with three releases a year I wouldn't be surprised if the seeming lack of community interest on the LLVM side for some hands at Apple to drop the use of big code To ease LLVM upgrades going forward.

Yeah, that's one of those things I forgot to talk about that LVM is actually an open source project And it's not just Apple that gets to decide how things go with a bit code to thing because it's a whole compiler infrastructure is under it Now you can't tell whether this is you know, which which is the leading indicator and trailing indicator It could be that there is less activity on the LLVM side because Apple was interested in it They were the major ones doing the contributions to the open source project in one sample sort of put that project in the back burner They just let it rot on the other hand It could be that Apple had been relying on the community keep this up My community doesn't care about it and Apple did and you got this disconnect and Apple wasn't willing to invest what was required to keep Up to date with all these tests and either way It's gone by the wayside But it's just to show that if you one of the one of the things that comes with using open source is if you're not doing a hundred percent Of the development of the features you care about and the community decides that some feature you care about is not as important to them You have a decision to make either like go of that feature and take it out of your product Or you decide that you're going to fully find the development of it And in this case Apple has chosen to let it go by the wayside One of you put probably John in the show notes a link from front of the show blend Fleishman Why Pascis will be simpler more secure than passwords and I read that earlier today and it's a really good overview of exactly that So I don't know if you have more things to add John But this article is a pretty good summary if you were looking for one Yeah, I'm not a good way of explaining complicated topics. It's a long article Or whatever you want to know more about it and you still don't quite understand it You can give a little try and speaking of past keys There's some questions from Janice pukerts Apple appears to be very slow in adopting their own sign in with Apple solutions past keys appear to be the same The dev portal looks like it's stuck in the year 2000 authentication wise Especially in the dev portal you might think Apple would be willing to roll out these features to it's more technologically adept users Why do you think Apple is so weird about using their own stuff? The reason Apple is crappy about this is same as any big company There's always dark corners of the company that don't get updated with the flagship features And I think we've all experienced this especially wandering around what used to be called iTunes connectors now apps or connect and the developer side and the documentation system You'll stumble upon these corners of Apple's web presence that are so clearly haven't been updated in years and years And they do get updated eventually just not as quickly as the more high profile part So maybe iCloud calm is likely to look fancy and get new features or whatever but App Store Connect less So let's say so and why is you know why is Apple slow about this because any big company is slow about this It's very difficult to have entire companies have like sort of the same priority like we're gonna roll this new feature And it's gonna roll out everywhere across every single thing that we have on the web at the same time That's just not feasible in a company the size of Apple Obviously wish they did a little bit better But I think it pretty much scales with like how many people use this webpage but a lot of people use Apple calm and iCloud calm and very A few people compared to that use App Store Connect and I guess developers are more important than the average person so and whatever It's you know, that's doesn't surprise me. This is the case that said, you know I haven't actually I mean the OS that fully supports PASKIs that various OS's are still in beta Right, so I wouldn't expect Apple to be converting any of its products or services to use PASKIs until you know And turns out iOS 16 is out I better see until those things all release and even then I'm maybe I'm just Messing that I wasn't expecting that like on the day of release suddenly I'll be able to log into the developer portal or any Apple property using PASKIs I don't know who's gonna go first maybe Apple will be first But I don't think it's gonna be on the day of release I'm still watching for you know, if and when PASKIs start to come into life We've looked at how long it took USB-C to finally become a thing that we could have some confidence in maybe a little while for PASKIs Too soon John Janice continues the documents I read mentioned that most services will provide a password and PASK authentication feature Passwords there's a fallback doesn't that kind of negate all of the benefits of PASKIs we still have to generate manage all the passwords There's some discussion of this on Twitter the option is like individual services and sites can decide what they want to do Nothing about PASKIs dictates that they must be the only way to sign in or that you have to choose one of the other or you could have multiple Right, so it's it's not there's no technological answer to this it is a policy decision I don't know what the most common policy is gonna be I don't even know what the best policy is gonna be in some ways Especially during the transition and maybe better to have PASKIs as a sort of convenient type thing and then sort of have passwords as a backup Sort of lock those passwords down real hard like so that you never really need to use them or send them and they can just be You know if you're if you have some passwords and a password manager even in I got kitchen or whatever and they never actually Extracted and sent across the internet that's still more secure But it is kind of good to be there as a backup at their bugs involving PASKIs or people don't use them yet or some issues We haven't discovered or some site once before looking they can decide when you quote unquote convert to PASK We get rid of your password login You just use a PASKI but that there's nothing inherent in any of these technologies or two factor or ubkeys or anything that dictates That you have to use one of the other just like you have websites now or you can log in with lots of different methods I think that will continue to be the case in each website We'll just have to decide what the policy they want to use is I recently noticed the option to generate App specific passwords on Apple ID dot Apple dot com they all will talk about this We'll put a link in the notes mentions an example use case quote So that the app can access information like mail contacts and calendars that you store in iCloud quote I would want to do such a thing the Apple ID is basically the key to anything That seems super risky for the benefit of provides that being said it appears one cannot log into Apple ID I'll come with an app specific password.

So maybe it's not blanket access As if yet one more authentication method when you're listening all the different ways you can authenticate and login and do stuff And this one's kind of here for legacy sport If you have some kind of service that needs to be able to let's say you're using Gmail And you want to be able to check your iCloud email back in the day what you could do is you could test tell Gmail your iCloud Email address and password and it would connect to the authenticated you know mail server and authenticate using the password You're told it and pull your mail down. That's obviously not great because now Google and Gmail have your password somewhere So hopefully securely but when Apple you know rolled out two-factor stuff remember that two step and two factor that wasn't Anyway, but Apple rolled out two factor Google didn't change it system and Google's thing had no idea about two factors So all of a sudden Google couldn't check your mail anymore because it just had your username and your password But it would try to log in with them and then it would get bounced off the two-factor prompt And you would never see that because it's all happening behind the scenes, right? And it didn't know how to handle that their whole standards built around avoiding this issue like oh, whatever But another way that you can deal with this if you have some kind of service that doesn't have a fancier more modern authentication method It only accepts username and password as you can make what's what Apple calls an app specific password Which is a special password that they show you one time and they say here it is take it and write it down somewhere or copy it Or whatever We're never gonna show it to you again And then it just appears forever and you just give that password to Gmail and it is not your password to your account It's just a password you would hope that just lets Gmail get your email and doesn't let it do anything else It can have a similar thing to you know choose the you know the various roles and not permissions you want to have So it's a special purpose password that you give a name like this is so Gmail can check my iCloud mail And the only thing in the entire internet that has that password is Gmail and the only things hopefully lets you do are very limited Things that you want Gmail to be able to do and if it is ever compromised or Gmail ever goes rogue You can revoke that one password and stop Gmail from using it anymore This is different than if Gmail had your real password or if you had done some sort of authentication where it goes through the two-factor thing Because then it would have access to your entire account and there'd be no way to revoke it without changing your whole password Which would must have learned all this stuff So that's why apps and passwords exist they are useful they have a function in this weird password world We live in especially in the age where most good systems require more than just a username to password and a password to log in But there are lots of old things around it only understand how to use a username and a password So to let them continue to work and to try to limit them to not have as many permissions you want and to be able to individually revoke them That's why I have specific passwords work We'll put a link in the show notes to the knowledge base article that from Apple they try to explain them Moving on stateful hardware controls versus software controls So weirded this kind of this started with the conversation about the Rivian and I think it was the wipers And we talked about a bunch of other things that have this kind of disconnection between what is the software think the state of the world Is and what is the hardware showing the state of the world is so I'd suffer from pieces of feedback about this Jordan McEwen writes I thoroughly enjoyed your discussion about how knobs no longer informs state and cars This has been an idea that has been explored thoroughly in the live music soundboard arena for many years the high-end solution is motorized faders As you can see the video that will link in the show notes you can do very sophisticated programming of the theaters just or just mess around And so there's a link where you see these faders doing like dances and the wave and things like that So it's like a bunch of vertical dials on a soundboard that are doing all sorts of silly things It's kind of fun. So if you've ever seen a video like a old-style soundboard in a recording studio It's got all these sliders like a giant dashboard with just you know dozens and dozens of sliders all physical controls You know you slide them up and down right and the way they dealt with it is sort of the way that we were talking about that Whatever that was you work or whatever dealt with it is now that their software control They just motorize the fader so if you change a value in software the fader literally moves like the physical control literally moves So very often you'll see the videos of the faders all going up together down together going in a sine wave when you turn the system on Or doing these stuff like that.

So that is one solution If you have a lot of money you want to have physical controls and software control at the same time just give them in sync No problem. No worries. You just need a whole bunch of motors Alright, and then Sam O'Kawan writes I thought you might find it interesting to see how the same challenges are manifesting in the slowly modernizing world of guitar amplifiers I have two digital modeling amps with radically different approaches to their UI and They were kind enough to include a video where they walk through this exact thing and we'll put a link in the show notes and about Was that a little over two minutes in there's an extent to it two and a quarter minutes in there's an example of a Screen on one of the amps clearly just violently disagreeing with one of the knobs on the same amp and that's kind of funny The great thing is what they put on a screen are tiny pictures of knobs Indicators where the knobs are but then right next to the screen with the picture of knobs are the actual knobs But the actual knob now this is a case like a guitar amp like where you don't have the money that they have for like a professional Recording studio to motorize everything because I could just motorize the knobs right but you're trying to sell guitar amp and you can't make it Like a $10,000 you want to have cheap guitar and through people too But you also want software control so they put pictures of knobs on the screen next to the physical knobs because I still want to have Physical knobs because you want this one to go 11 or whatever I would indicators on them not just not just men together not with indicators They have a beginning and end right and the way they dealt with this with it One of the amps had like lights on them to sort of use a different method sort of like software control knobs But the second one the way that was is just my own physical control knobs I screen that can conflict but if they can flick if you touch one of the knobs and move it anywhere in the direction The software immediately switches to match the knob right so you can change it in software and the knobs don't move and then the software is Sort of in control But the second you touch one of the physical knobs that immediately tells the software I'll forget what you have before now take the knob thing And that's a reasonable compromise if you're trying to save money because the worst thing you want to happen is you're playing music You need to make an adjustment real quick much easier to just you know grab a knob and twist it right and you want that knob just like I turn the stop. I don't care what the software says.

I'm turning the knob the knob should win But if you did some careful setup and software you want that to win as well until you touch the knob So not an ideal solution But it's a way to it's a way to have both systems without breaking the bank on motorized knobs. They've let's face it So I'm probably break anyway Dave Rowan horse writes one contributing factor to the crash of Air France white 447 was the lack of physical indication of the control stick On the Airbus A330 cockpit which acts like the Rivian stock switch Which you know snapping back to the center after input is given thus the other pilots were not aware that the co-pilot was continuing to put in the Wrong input he was pitching the nose up while the position the stick indicated a neutral input had the stick stayed in the pitched up position Or location it would have been clear what the input was being given furthermore Both the co-pilot and the pilot stick represented the current state of input It would have been more obvious to everyone involved and this was really really terrible accent I haven't just a couple of years back or maybe a few years at this point And I remember this being a thing and I remember everyone had a fit about the way airbus Cockpits work on accounts of this. I don't know if any real changes were made I would assume some sort of changes made but I still think the airbus cockpits are largely the same I don't know if you know sorry, I don't know that's fine And then somebody else brought up something I should have brought up myself and on Yeltshin's death back in 2016 So this is the young guy who played check-off in the Star Trek reboot and reading from an NBC News article The actor was pinned against a gate by what sources told NBC News was one of the jeeps involved in the safety recall the vehicle is a 2015 Grand Cherokee and I see the recently recall because of problems with its electronic shifter The Chrysler on reveals recall three different models and a total of 1.1 million vehicles April following investigation by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration The agency found the shifter confused voters by not giving clear feedback as to what gear the automatic transmission was in If I recall correctly, I might have this wrong. This is one of the first like dial transmissions And so it was like a knob kind of like the yoke on the air bus thing where like it would just return to middle no matter There are ones like this they're more like little switchy things But it looked a lot like a PR and DL, you know move the thing But the thing is this one you would press it and when you look out Oh just spring back to middle just like the Rivians talk and just like the controls on the air bus and in that case if you look at it There's no clear indication whether the car is in drive reverse or whatever because it's always just always just you know vertical, right?

So yeah, this it is it is an anti-pattern with like I don't want to say that you know having having wiper controls It's bring back to middle is gonna kill somebody right but like this this whole thing about having hardware that is not stateful anymore When previously it used to be can actually have life in best consequences in big ways and small So it is something worth considering when design current areas because cars are big everything's that can actually kill people I didn't realize it was one of the stock ones and as soon as you described it What you're basically describing is every BMW automatic that I've seen for the last several years And they almost all of them use the ZF8 speed Which is a transmission that I actually really liked by being a pure blood automatic and sure enough the Jeep Grand Cherokee from the 2014 Through 2022 model years use a ZF8 speed So I don't have a picture in the show or in the Wikipedia entry that I put in the show I have a picture of the gear shift that I typically see but the gear shift that I saw on BMW is almost identical to the one that the Alfa Romeo's I tested had I mean it was maybe it was lightly different but it looked almost identical so It's not the transmission to be clear. It's not the transmission it's fault that because electronically controlled transmission It's fine It's the controls that you hook up to the wires that tell the transmission what you're to be in because you can do those controls in lots of different ways And I think in this particular case with the car thing The worst combination is a control that looks like a mechanical thing But isn't I think more of the modern ones don't look anything like old transmissions Like there's no expectation that you can look at them and see like a lever shoved in one position or another to give you some reassurance about what Here it's in if you make it look like the old time where you could see which where the lever is and know what you're it's in People are going to assume that's how it worked but if you make it look totally different No one will look into you know the console or dashboard of your car and expect to be able to tell what it's in very often You can't tell what it's in because they just have a bunch of buttons and unless the car is on and something lights up and says a D Or an R there's no expectation that you know what gear it's in so you're not lulled into a false sense of confidence I think that is the problem in particular with these first set of electronic control transmissions where the thing that you touch with your Hand look just like the old stuff but they worked nothing like it We are sponsored this week by Instabug building and maintaining mobile apps is not simple Bugs crashes and performance issues can be a nightmare for developers like me What if you could not only detect and dissect these issues but also get a holistic understanding of your app's performance with Instabug? You can do comprehensive bug and crash reports performance monitoring and real-time user feedback Instabug gives you the visibility you need to build top quality apps You can observe and fix issues like UI hangs slow app launches and screen loads network failures and anything else that may be affecting your user experience You can get a quick read on their impact on your users and access all the granular data relevant to the issue in seconds So you can prioritize assign and debug before your next update It only takes a minute to integrate Instabug's SDK into your app and it fits right into your workflow with integration support for tools Like Jira slack Trello github zendesk and many more so stop flying blind on your mobile app issues try Instabug today Go to Instabug.com and get the visibility you need to start delivering superior app performance and better user experience That's Instabug.com. Thank you so much to Instabug for sponsoring our show Breaking news do do do do do do lockdown mode is a thing that is coming in iOS 16 Apple put up a newsroom release today We have not heard about this previously right we had heard about the like I don't want this person to know anything about me What was that?

Yes, thank you. Thank you But lockdown mode I believe is brand-new so reading from their press release apples previewing a groundbreaking security capability that offers specialized additional protection to users who may be at risk of highly targeted cyber attacks from private companies developing state-sponsored mercenary spyware apples also providing details of its 10 million our grant to bolster research exposing such threats at launch lockdown mode includes the following protections for messages most message attachment types other than images are blocked some features like link previews are disabled for web browsing certain complex web technologies like just in time jobs group compilation are disabled unless the user excludes a trusted site from lockdown mode Apple services incoming invitation service requests including facetime calls are blocked if the user is not previously sent the initiator a call or request Wired connections with a computer or accessory or blocked when the iPhone is locked I actually thought that was true already to be honest with you But I guess not configuration profiles cannot be installed and the device cannot enroll in mobile device management Well locked down mode is turned on and it says Apple will continue to strengthen lockdown mode and add new protections to it over time We don't have it in the show notes I'm gonna have to stall as I dig up the quote But I also noticed that they said that in apples also making a 10 million dollar grant in addition to any damages awarded from the lawsuit filed against So group to support organizations that investigate expose and prevent highly targeted cyber attacks including those created by companies developing space sponsored mercenary spyware So they're saying if they win their lawsuit against an so group all the money that ends in so group is gonna pay them is going into this fund As pretty much a big you back to so groups so I thought that was quite funny in not a bad idea That's delightful. It is it's kind of it's kind of juvenile, but I'm here for it But anyway, so it's locked down thing they say in the post like this is not for normal people It's an extreme this is reading from an extreme optional protection for the very small number of users who face grave targeted threats to their digital security So what they're basically saying is if you're like a journalist in certain countries, maybe America not too long If you're if you're perhaps a particular celebrity or a person in government, then this might be for you But for the three of us not worth it. Well, is it not so When you look at the actual list of protections I kind of like this and I think the only thing that I think would really get in my way was that it said you basically can't participate in shared albums In photos other than that I would actually turn this on I think you'd be annoyed about about websites going slower because the jitt is disabled in JavaScript And I think the message is thing would be really annoying how much slower could it be?

So you know I want to bring this up again because we talked about it last time and it's just good to keep people's minds We're not used to thinking about this way because a lot of people have kind of you know Very sort of binary thinking on security security is always a trade-off between security and convenience, right? And this is giving you a different place on that continuum. You are sacrificing some convenience in exchange for some additional security The difficulty with any of these things where you're where you're asked the people to get up Convenience is it's very easy for people to get frustrated by just one aspect of this and say well I tried it but this one part of it annoyed me right because I you know I tried to do a thing and I realized the reason I couldn't do it because I was in lockdown load I'm tired of tapping a second time to get through to a link to find out what it is I'd like to better when I could see them in line people will go back on a higher security setting Very quickly for the smallest inconvenience, but all security policies are a trade-off between security and convenience And so having a mode that is farther up the line for people who really really need it is good But to mark us point you look at this and you kind of wish you could pick and choose well I would like that one but this one would annoy me but I like that one But you know there was some debate on Twitter when this came out between the people saying should this just be for everybody? Like why wouldn't everybody want this and people were saying well, but I would find it in community But what about this and it's like you can look at some of these things like you know Like should there be two tiers of security like why isn't this why shouldn't everybody in this because you know The debate of whether you know who is an extra threat right?

You know it's only important when a politician gets hacked But everybody is an equal threat if some rootkit hack is out there and script kitties are running it all over the place or whatever But I think it is true that people have different assessments of like what are the consequences of my phone getting host if you are an important person government or a journalist in a hostile environment the consequences could be life and death whereas If you're just a regular citizen and someone hacks your phone the consequences You have to like cancel them into credit cards and maybe it was a little bit of money or whatever right? And then the probability who's targeting you use the big sky theory where there's a zero-day hack out there But there's also millions of possible victims and you're just one of those millions Versus you being ahead of state and you know that their entire country is focusing on you like a laser beam all the time trying to get in So you I think it is appropriate to have to give people different levels of security based on how much convenience They're willing to give up and lockdown mode is a step in that direction But I think we will be able to look at the list of things a lockdown mode does and so something should probably graduate to be the defaults But it's not clear which ones quite yet, right? Obviously doing this doesn't mean Apple is ignoring security for regular users apples constantly doing tons of things for security You know almost everything you see here listed messages web browsing all the Apple services They're constantly doing things to improve the security of all that stuff You know what what used to be possible wired connection to your phones versus what is now to a casey Spunny thought this was already the case because they have locked down the wired connection This is just one step up from what is the default for everybody? So I think it's a move in the right direction But I think I would like to see some of these things graduate to be the defaults as long as we can get the convenience security trade-off correctly Bounced for normal people out of curiosity as just a little experiment This might not be very interesting But if you guys have your phones handy, would you go into settings general?

Vpending device management and let me know if you don't have to be specific about what they are But do you have configuration profiles there? Yes, I do not okay, so for me I have Charles proxy Which is you know so I can sniff network traffic which I do very rarely but I do from time to time and fast mail offers you And I think you can configure it manually But it offers a way to just have everything pretty much automatically configured by way of downloading profiles So that's the two that I have Marco if you're willing to share I'd love to hear what you have there if you would rather you know for ops like reason It's not sure that's totally fine. No, it's super boring I have the fast mail one for the same reason you know I have on past folks to figure them with you know I'm having some TP passwords and everything you can still do that This but the configures profile is a faster way to do that and I also have the iOS 16 beta profile for Apple So super boring yeah, cuz the reason I bring that up is cuz I thought there was a time that like fonts came in as configuration profiles or something like that Can be done? I don't know.

I don't think that has been that way anymore But that is a way they could be done all right Well, I was just curious cuz I feel like in the past I have had more things here than simply the two that I have now I might be thinking of MDM like when I would when I work email my phone and maybe I'm sure that they're I'm talking about So now I was gonna say I kind of hope not like you shouldn't be have a lot of these things I mean the things a lot of people do like oh god, so somebody else who lives in my house has a highly customized home screen Oh my and the way this was achieved was in part with a configuration profile What I thought I was like, oh, no, what what is going on here? I listen to it. It's it's fairly innocuous But it's something that like shouldn't be that's why seeing on the list of like a lock-down mode doesn't allow MDM profiles And you're like is that a big problem or whatever? As we just got some past shows these MDM profiles give abilities to do things that you can't really do any other way and Times of things are constantly throwing common regular people to say you want this cool thing on your phone Just install this profile right and it's a thing you should like talk to your kids about anything ever asked you just install this profile I'm just like say no now doesn't mean they're all scams because they legitimately give you abilities to do things that you couldn't do Otherwise there would be more cumbersome to do all right That's why things are always prompting you to do them And I think it should be a single to Apple for like the legitimate uses that people using MDM profiles for like build clean hooks into the OS to do that so people can stop doing that But that's why they're just blanking this out because if you're gonna social engineer your way into some someone's phone right getting them to install One of these MDM profiles either like you know Willingly installed by convincing them that you need this to play the school game or getting them to accidentally install it by tapping A thing a message and exploiting a thing or whatever.

It's a very common vector And so this I mean obviously the solution is not just banning them entirely because you actually need them for enterprise stuff or whatever This is this is a weak spot in iOS and the lockdown solution is no you just can't have any of those that you can't install them period Right it doesn't say you can't have them Just you can't install a new one and honestly that's probably the correct default setting for everybody This is one of those things that I think should be the default for everybody by default No one has any profiles installed but it's really easy to encounter something on the internet that asks you to install it And that you want to do it you want to install it because you just want to do the thing right and there needs to Be better protection to do this kind of a area of ongoing work. Let's say in iOS security Whenever I see stuff like this I'm always like all these all these very popular apps that require a configuration profile for some feature and say I'm always surprised that's allowed by Apple. It always seems like like the potential for problems there is quite high Now, I think Apple's argument there would be like well I'm still gonna review it and see what it does and everything and and the problem is that I'm sure that applies to in the same way Every other app store will apply and maybe they review some of the time But a lot of stuff still can get through or things can be changed for the fact or a lot of stuff can just live by a reviewer here And there or the rules aren't applied evenly like so, you know, I preview is not the main security there And so in song a configuration profile in many cases They're allowed to bypass other security measures on the phone that you expect to be there Apple is a pretty job of keeping this Reason under control, but that's another level of security. It's like an app asking you for your password on your Mac like whenever it pops up that dialogue And it's like hey, we need your password to install something like you should think like why why do you need my root password to install something for this like Calculator app like this probably is not a legitimate request, right?

You know same thing should apply to your computer profile on your phone like treat it like it's your your system Repass or do I really need to give this app root access? You know, it isn't quite the same thing technically, but it's it should be considered in the same ballpark of suspicion and conservatism We are sponsored this week by Squarespace the all-in-one platform for building your brand and growing your business online with Squarespace You can stand out with a beautiful website You can engage with your audience and you can even sell anything your products your content even your time all with a Squarespace sites Squarespace sites are super easy to make it is a gloriously simple platform Everything is visual everything is live previewing. There's no coding anywhere You don't have to know how to run servers or update security things or anything like that Squarespace is care of all of that for you and you can make all sorts of squares space Especially now you can make storefront sites and this ranges from everything from physical product sales, which actually my wife does and she loves it Digital product sales you can even have membership. You can have member content monetize your content expertise However might fit your brand you can unlock new revenue streams for your businesses free of time in your schedule You can sell access to gated content like videos online courses or newsletters or you can of course sell products in an online store Whether you sell physical or digital products squares Has all the tools you need to start selling online you can have email campaigns on Squarespace all this is backed up by an amazing platform You don't have to worry about servers and markup and upkeep and CSS and any of that stuff They have everything covered for you.

They have great support if you need it And I'm just telling it's so easy to make a Squarespace site anybody can do it. I've used it myself I recommend it to as many people as I can so go to squarespace.com slash ATP You can start a free trial and actually build a site and see exactly for yourself How you like it in a free trial? No credit card required when you decide to sign up and you write it along to your site You don't for code ATP to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain So once again squarespace.com slash ATP to start that free trial and use offer code ATP when you sign up for 10% off your first purchase of Website or domain. Thank you so much to squarespace for sponsoring our show All right, there was there been a lot of awful about issues with regard to this M2 Macbook Pro my favorite computer ever But max tech YouTube channel that we brought up several times in the past They did an extreme stress test and they exported 8k raw to 4k 4k HVc Trying to max out with CPU in the GPU and they found that the M1 Macbook Pro was GPU-winded That's the M1 mind you and did not throttle and the fans did not hit maximum RPM The M2 hit 108 degrees Celsius with the fans and maximum RPM and then had to thermally throttle to get things back under control So in other words the fans weren't enough to cool the processor down and the processor couldn't be that hot So the only choice it had was to choose to operate more slowly until it was able to cool itself down And then it would say oh I'm cool now Let me ramp back up and operate fast again And then the fans scream and then it gets too hot then it cools back down and you know it slows down cools back down This whole thing just starts again And so max tech found that the M2 was still 10% faster than the M1 Macbook Pro And without thermal throttling the M2 GPU can be up to 35% faster and the M2 CPU can be up to 18% faster But apparently the thermals on the inside of this thing are not good before we get through some more opinions Not just to lay out what was put in this video if you want to see the thing they're picking an extreme test Like they're trying to find something that will you know light up every part of the system at the same time Which is hard to do in regular workloads, right?

But apparently they did find one and you know you can watch it You can watch their results that have these tools they're measuring the clocks be and you can watch the clocks be just drop in half or quarter Like really hard thermal throttling with it again with the fans going in max, right? But despite all of that it's still being 10% faster. It's like well, that's not great But you know your M2 was still faster and you were trying to find an extreme workload that most normal people aren't gonna have So anyway, there take that for what it's worth But then there's some debate about this result because some people have not been able to reproduce But I get like Gary from the everyday dad YouTube channel tried to do the same test then m2 Macbook Pro rendering 8k Can't and Ralph would age for 15 minutes straight so he said no fans no high-tempts know anything So I think the jury is still out on this what I what I think about it is if it's thermal throttling and getting super hot But it's still faster. That's not ideal and a better cooling system would be better But one of the things we know about the m2 Macbook Pro is it's just the old computer like to the point where they where they put stickers over The boxes of the old computer make new boxes.

It's the old computer. It's the old case It's the old single fan cooling solution. It's not exactly the same cooling solution But it's like they didn't completely redesign this ins the form factor is the same and the innards are very similar and on this particular m2 Macbook Pro that max tech was testing apparently that cooling solution was not adequate when everything is maxed out You know, we'll see in the coming days and weeks of people can reproduce this result if it's widespread It's specific to the one test that they were doing or other people can reproduce it But I was kind of amazed that even with massive thermal throttling incredibly high temperatures was still faster Yeah, so it's pretty weird We'll keep an eye on this if you're looking for yet another reason not to buy this computer here's one And and to to mark a point from shows back. What about the air?

It doesn't even have a fan and it's got the same chip in it You know, it's not gonna thermal fire on how badly now obviously with the air It's less important because no one is buying the air for maximum CP performance You want it to be thin and lightweight and silent and hopefully cool And maybe that's not the best machine for you to run your 8k raw renders on all the time, right? Maybe get you know an actual Macbook pro for those purposes But if you know if this modified 5 nanometer slightly bigger slightly hotter m2 does have thermal limits even with a fan on it What is it gonna be like with no fan? I guess we'll find out when we get our MacBook Airs and you know I'm still ordering Monday one because my son is gonna be you know using it as a glorified You know terminal emulator or running running Google Docs in Chrome or like not doing not rendering 8k raw footage, right? So I think for normal uses it will continue to be difficult to make these things hard and make any noise Just because it's a very cool system on a chip We kind of know the power draw that it pulls and it's around twenty twenty five thirty watts Which is within a reasonable envelope for our fanless cooling is it much more much lower than that in data usage actually I should find this link for the notes.

There was a hardware unboxed review It also did a comprehensive review comparing the m2 MacBook pro to Intel laptops That's a very window-centric channel So you know keep that in mind there showing us that you know in fact I had a segment that said but what about Mac OS? Well certainly our listeners shows it 80% want to use Windows like right well your windows Yeah, that makes perfect sense right if you want a Windows laptop the person was actually kind of disappointed that there wasn't a better way to run windows on it So I feel that right but the important spec for where this concern is they were showing how little power the m2 uses when you're doing single core tasks It's so incredibly energy efficient when you just are using one core like you know for non-paralizable workloads And most of the time when you're just putting around your computer scrolling a web page or typing in Microsoft Word You're not gonna be lighting up all the cores or all the GPUs doing anything and a single core blipping on for a second to handle What you're doing is mostly what it's doing and you compare that to the power usage of the competitive spec wise Intel things and they're using like 20 30 watts when a single core is going and the m2 is in eight watts, right? So you know the m2 still has a huge lead when it comes to Efficiency performance performance for what and in particular performance when it is not plugged into the wall There's a lot of these Intel laptops to get the maximum performance to even be competitive with the M2 They need to be plugged in as soon as you unplug them They all ramp down and speed right so I still think the M2 SFC is pretty good and even in the M2 macro pro It's still head and shoulders above the competition. It's just that case is old.

There's no mag safe It's got a touch bar and the coin solution may or may not be inadequate Yeah, what I'm mostly curious to see here You know first of all was this just a fluke you mentioned like people had trouble reproducing it That's in my opinion a good sign that means made it's a fluke But what we need to see when we get the new reviews of the Macbook air and Honestly, if pre-orders are opening up in two days So and you know as this episode released today, you know Thursday morning as I'm editing this episode chances are the pressure Views will probably drop if there were press reviews on the regular schedule for this product So we'll see maybe I don't know if any depressed will do this kind of testing who got review in it Who knows but what we need to see when we actually get these things people's hands with the air is Is it actually pulling 30 watts total package power and trying to cool that passively because that's quite a large normal load I think try to cool passively when you compare the total you know package power to previous fanless laptops You know, I think that's that's gonna be only more than them. So we'll see I maybe I'm wrong But I think that's that seems a lot there's also the potential that maybe the M2 in the Macbook air will be clocked lower Or we'll have different thermal maximums before it throttles. It's it's speed down compared to the models with fans We don't know you know until now all the all the M1 products as far as I know seem to be all clocked the same Or at least very very close to the same they also apparently also have the same fan curves from the testing on the studio Like you would have think they'd be too indifferently for the bigger cooling solution But like no matter what you do do it the the fans would stay at the same RPM in the next video It seemed like at least on the initial reviews of the fan curves of all these things at the clocks with the same and the fan curves With the same right and so you could assume that M1 meant M1 it meant the same thing everywhere It had the same performance everywhere at the same rough thermal characteristics everywhere We don't know if that's always gonna be the case with Apple's M series chips They could theoretically clock the air lower if they had to for cooling something else to consider is that the M2 is based on a TSMC 5-nimeter process still so they made they made the whole chip bigger It's it's a larger die, but made and made on the same process So it's probably going to run hotter than the M1. Well, it's not the exact same process They modified process that does give a slight performance per watt savings over that's why I was saying like percentage wise It got like X percent bigger and the new process Y percent more energy efficient And I think that percentages are close to each other It got like maybe 10 or 15 percent bigger and maybe it's like 9 or 10 percent lower power like that's true It's not outside the bounds But you know the expectation is that this would use more power and be hotter because it is bigger and it is I think it is bigger More than the the slightly modified 5-nimeter process makes you know makes up for but like the thing to remember this and the reason that People I've told reproduces is it's not just a CPU it's a system on a chip and to make every part of that SOC you work at the same time Is actually pretty challenging you can't you can't do a handbrake render.

You're not lighting up the whole chip long to play a game You're probably not lighting up the whole chip. It's actually difficult to do that because you gotta get all the GPU cars and all the CPU cars And there are a bunch of ancillary units like that you could probably try to do stuff with the neural engine where it's difficult Actually make all that happen at once so although the maximum possible sort of heat generating potential is always there It's kind of an artificial workload, but it is you're not gonna stumble into doing it You're not gonna stumble into doing it by browsing the web, okay? So I'm using Chrome yeah I learned like there was there was one time where as part of an experiment I trained a large ML model on my 6x0 MacBook Pro and that and running this huge like you know core ML training thing on this huge dataset was the only time I have ever heard the fan on the 16-inch spin-up. I do all my heavy developer stuff I do all my you know hobbyist you know photo and video stuff here and there I have never heard the fan any other time except after at least a half hour of Maxing out who knows what different kinds of units on this chip doing ML training Which is you know all the CPU cores probably all the GPU cores possible the neural engine got it's what it was doing It was it was a lot and I barely heard the fans then So yeah, I think that's a good point to take shot that you know chances are in regular workload You won't see this but what remains to be seen once we get the m2 MacBook Air in people's hands is Are the thermals weirder or worse or more limited in some way than the outgoing model?

This is gonna be the first one that was designed from the start to be fanless with the exception of the old 12 inch Sorry, Casey, but you know the previous the M1 MacBook Air previously was you know is one of these like you know kind of half-assed Changes to the case in the sense there was there was no physical change Like they just kind of swap the intel guts for the M1 guts So there was probably not much of a of a thermal consideration there during this thing fanless Whereas now the new m2 m2 m2 m2 is the first m2 Air physical case design that was designed from the start presumably to be fanless So we'll see what it can do and how it behaves, you know there we learned it's the last one somebody wrote I forget how this how we learn this but you can't just use the entire metal bottom of the laptop as the heat sink because There are certain standards for how hot a laptop can get in certain countries and everything for like safety and health and stuff And so the bottom of laptop can't be like super super hot And so you can't just like bond the chip to the case and call it a day We'll see what they actually did I'm very curious to see the tear down to this thing and see how it works and and then see the benchmarking and see limitations of it And honestly part of the reason I want to play with one is just to figure out myself It's like what is it like to use it because I use the M1 air so much and I loved it so much And I want to know like how hot does it get in use how do I ever see a throttle? You know can't can I make it throttle by doing something that's you know For example like only stressing the CPU cores, but not the GPU cores stuff like that That's the kind of stuff I want to find out what I suspect based on based on that like you know 29 watt thermal peak that this test video had What I suspect is that you actually can make the M2 throttle because it seems like Apple is allowing it to run hotter at peak Performance whereas the M1 it seemed like nothing you could do would make a throttle with with the fan models The non-fan models, you know You could get a throttle a little bit more easily but it was hard still but if the M2 if they're allowing it to have a higher thermal limit In terms of what it used before they start capping it then you will have these things in extreme cases But I think I hope still that the common case is still gonna be very very cool and reasonable and time will tell Yeah, and letting it sort of go get real hot and go real fast is actually usually good move in laptops because you know You don't always have sustained loads You want to be able to go real fast for a second or two even a minute or two So it can get the thing done and go back to being idle But if you need to be able to do a sustained workload then throttling and clocking down is not great But even in the tests even in the max text test it was still faster It was constantly bouncing up against the limiter going on too hot and clocked down on cool now I'm too hot you know It goes up and down and up and that you don't want it to operate that way you want it to be steady But the bottom line is if the job gets done faster, you know, then that's still better You know when I was max like point out if it didn't throttle It would be even faster, you know, the GPU would be 35% faster and CPU You can be faster instead of just a 10% faster. It got bouncing off the heat limiter I would imagine that you'll be able to throttle the heat throttle the MacBook air as well, but the slim fanless computer Yeah, that's the one like throttling is the most excuseable the M2 MacBook Pro that's supposed to offer sustained performance It feels like it should have a better cooling system, especially since it's not like, you know, 96 watt, you know System in there it's only going to a max of 30 watts You should be able to cool 30 watts in a laptop and just look at some of the past Intel laptops You know, you just need a better cooling solution so that can run sustained on this workload of the 8k raw export for 30 minutes at Time without throttling. I think that is a reasonable thing for something in the MacBook Pro line And I think that's something they achieved with most of the M1 MacBook Pro models with the M1 Pro and M1 Max and obviously With the M1 Ultra in the max studio with its noisy, but apparently good at cooling fans So we'll say I'm not sure what kind of stress that's I'll do on my son's M2 MacBook air Because I don't think he's ever gonna do anything that but I guess I'll maybe I'll run Xcode and see if I can at least get the CPU cores to Crank up a little bit But I don't even know what I would use other than like trying to run geek bench or you know using a cinema 4d or whatever I have a bunch of those benchmark apps or whatever but most of those do not actually stress all the things at once they usually Focus either mostly on GPU or mostly on CPU.

It's actually hard to do useful work stressing all the parts of ones All right, John take me on a tour of system settings in venture beta 3. Please and thank you I just came out today. I quickly able to install it and look at some stuff Of course I dove into some settings to see how that's going. It seems slightly less buggy than before I didn't get any items duplicated in the sidebar I did still get a little red badge that I couldn't make disappear this time I had no idea where it was like you look at the screenshot and I know seriously Where has a red badge with a number one in it next to general if you click on general There's nothing in there with a badge you can never make it go away Anyway, nice bugs it whatever a three but I also went over to the trackpad thing which is something that could read read talked about on Talk show live saying oh they open how those cool videos and the new one is boring so we have something else in mind here Well, this is what's in beta 3 I don't know if this is what he was talking about or a step along the way But what they have now are when you click on each one of the things that you can do like, you know Zooming in or out or you know scrolling or smart zoom or rotate it has two boxes above that one of them shows a little You know diagram of a trackpad with two dots on it If you ever use the simulator I was simulator kind of the same way you see those two dots are supposed to represent basically the contact patches of your finger That's an animation It shows the two dots and it shows them like for pinch to zoom it shows the two dots close to each other And it shows the two dots spreading apart on the trackpad and then to the right of that is a sort of stylized Abstract representation of a screen like it's got a little dock at the bottom But instead of app icons just got colored dots and it's got a stylized window with some blank tiles What's kind of like preview with like little squares in the sidebar or whatever and the image it's showing its two circles and as those two dots The represent your fingers on trackpad spread apart the two circles in the window zoom in right?

So it's basically doing the same thing as the old thing where before you show you a video of some humans actual hands Swiping around on the touchpad This is showing you the touchpad over here and a you know sort of a road sign abstraction of the screen over there saying when you do this and the Trackpad this happens in the app. I think it's a pretty clever solution avoiding the having to put videos in there and everything But I do wonder if people are gonna look at that and have any What it is that they're looking at like I know what it is because I know what it's supposed to be I already know how it works I already know the answer so that's a trackpad and that's where your fingers are touching That's not obvious if someone else sees us they're like there's these two balls floating in a box and then there's something else happening I'm not sure it is better at communicating the ideas that it's trying to communicate than seeing a human's hand on the trackpad Because people recognize human hands pretty well and they recognize oh those human hands are touching something that looks like the trackpad It's on a laptop that I'm sitting in front of right now I recognize that and then seeing what's going on on the screen having to use like an abstraction And then finally both things are pretty small like the little area with the trackpad is pretty small because it's like they're side-by-side And it's very narrow window that you still can't make any wider Some people are asking why would you ever want the system settings window to be wider? There's lots of cases here's one you can make those animations a little bit bigger than they are right sometimes the labels are really long anyway So we're making progress. I didn't go through every single one of the things But they look slightly better than it before it's still dark dingy dark gray and gray this way Just still too small it's still not particularly readable or nice looking but it definitely looks better than it did in the last Beta I mean it's a low bar I love Austria it is but you know I've made as much along and this is this one thing that they said they were gonna change And so here you go trackpad is not as dire as it was but I'm not convinced This is a you know an upgrade over what came before this still the whole panel looks like have you ever come across?

Having children during the big ole age have you ever come across these YouTube videos that are made for kids that seem procedurally generated with like Really simple animated shapes and stuff you see these this like the system settings looking in Ventura It looks like it was designed by those people slash algorithms It makes web apps and electron apps look like great designed by comparison I do see a little bit of a human touch in the left-hand bar like the way the organizing system preferences always been scattered shot And now they're adopting the iOS model which is it's clear that a human arranged these but what the human was thinking not entirely clear You know you know when you scroll through like it's people more from other phones you go to settings on your iPhone Right and they kind of put important stuff up top But I can never remember like is the app that I'm trying to find some sort of those apps that Apple thinks is so important It doesn't belong mingling with the other apps You know what I mean like phone or camera or Safari versus mail versus stocks, right? There's a hierarchy in apps of what Apple thinks is important enough to be a regular app versus like oh this is kind of part of your phone Right and it's it's confusing like there's these weird little sections sometimes you see like App Store and wallet together Like it's like money stuff right but you know this whole section above which is like hardware things and then you get to like Passwords mail contacts what and then there's a new section music TV photos I guess this is the media section but there's a separate section for the TV provider and then you get to the third party I'm sure across at the bottom right so it's clear that a human did arrange them but every time I look at it It's not like I know right what what section to go to immediately. I know where Safari is It's right in this section. Oh, I don't know I scroll until I see this far simple So it's not a successful organization, but a human did it right sidebar and system settings in venture beta 3 there are sections It's clear that they're broken up in a similar way to iOS And I also like the fact that they gave a lot of things names They didn't have before it will hopefully that make it easier for people to find things like There's a section that says lock screen login password and using groups lock screen is not was not a top-level item It's never been a top-level item But it's definitely a top-level item in people's heads of like the phrase lock screen in the concept of a lock screen If you've ever had a user computer work and had a lock screen policy mandated That's of course always been a feature in Mac OS or as long as lockscreen have exist But there was nothing called lock screen So I think that's an improvement It's some human said hey I want the top-level items in the sidebar to be named after things that are in people's heads And there's a search bar that works pretty well to find stuff as well, right?

And then somebody go to a section where it's like keyboard, mouse, and trackpad Okay, it makes sense that there's grouped together, but then you get like passwords internet accounts and game center That's a group of three items, but it's separate from lock screen login password and users and groups But where is the privacy and security one whole you know skip a section It's up much higher next to spotlight and control center Anyway, I think most people will just use the search But I but to mark a point about this being like I really generated it almost looks like you know It looks more like to me like it's data driven like that you just spec out this thing and it just spits out the sap, right? Without much of you in touch But then you go to trackpad and it's clear that this is a very custom situation Where when you you know you can't tell from the screenshot But when you click on or mouse over one of these rows It changes the animation and then it plays it This is all customized for a little bit of human touch and the sidebar has a little bit of human touch But a lot of it does kind of look like you know a very straightforward hierarchy That was just sort of data driven by a P with somewhere and then you just run it through and it produces a zap What's with the the capitalization of the titles of the options natural scrolling the essence scrolling is capitalized smart zoom The z-in zoom is not I mean is that any different than it is today? I go look at it on your laptop so you're in front of one I don't know if it's any different this is just in capelsation. It's not a new thing Natural scrolling is a little TM symbol next to it.

It's no, it's still wrong I hope you know, we'll see what happens when when what actually ships here again I have low confidence and apples software design team these days and their ability to ship stuff that that they think is cleaner Even though it's worse because you look at this and it's still looks like the CSS failed to look I don't know it's to me like it looks it looks cheap and sloppy That's what it really is it looks cheap and sloppy and it doesn't look like something that you would expect a company like Apple to make With their reputation it doesn't look polished and doesn't look high gloss right? I'm not going to use to look not just like literally high glosses and having specular highlights drawn on to things But high gloss in terms of someone you know if you think of what looks like hot gloss very often the home page of Apple That kind of looks high gloss Apple's product pages often look high gloss They're supposed to look fancy and like you know sophisticated and like someone's sweated over all the details and it is made to look attractive Now that's not the most important thing about a UI it'd be better for it to be readable usable accessible so on and so forth But once you've fulfilled those basics, it's also nice if it looks you know attractive and you know Expressing your brand in some way and Apple's brand is very often sort of you know sophisticated minimalist polished Beautiful looking right and system settings is not yet beautiful No, I mean you know we make fun so much when an app switches to electron and we say oh my god They're gonna ruin the experience. They're throwing out this native code in design They don't care about the platform etc. I just opened up one password I open up its setting screen and this is an electron app You know, but you look at the setting screen it's the nice regular Mac looking preference of screen It's a couple of custom things in there but for the most part it looks like a Mac setting screen It looks nice looks put together and polished and thought through and you look at the Ventura system settings app and it is None of those things like it this is the kind of thing that if an app like if some popular app that we used Switch their settings will like this we would make fun of them relentlessly and say they've abandoned our customers They've abandoned the Mac like and so I don't know it just seems like I don't know anybody who's gonna upgrade their Mac or get a new Mac on the road opens up for the first time who was ever seen the previous versions and look at this and say Oh, what an ice upgrade it looks like a downgrade and it's gonna feel like downgrade to anybody who is usually previous one Because it's different to begin with but if you're gonna go through the the user disruption of moving things around it a lot Making them different it might as well at least be nicer once you get used to it And I don't know if you've achieved that here It doesn't look nicer at first glance That's for sure and I think a lot of people are not going to feel that this is much of an upgrade the first time I see it one of the things is really good.

No people are talking about this just after record last week's episode in one of the Slacks that we're in that I think I forgot to mention the show so some of the items on the sidebar when you click on them There's a second level I think general is like that so you click on general in the sidebar and then the right-hand detail plane shows more choices Right, I figure what the arc is not in the chair right now But you click on general and you click on like I don't know about this Mac or something or storage I don't know the options Alright, but you click on a second one The second one the detail pain slides over and you get into whatever item you were in and system settings remembers what you were in Right it remembers that you end general and then about right and so what you see and this on the screen in the state is the general is highlighted in The sidebar right because that's the one you run and in the detail panes to the right of it You see like about this Mac or whatever you picked before and if you look in the upper left There's a left-facing chevron saying or you can go back like the iOS style back button or whatever right But let's say just close system settings the next time you lost system One system setting you click on general. It's just gonna show you the about thing It's not going to show you all the other choices like there's a two level hierarchy And it's really easy to forget like you're gonna be guiding someone over the phone Just like go to system settings go to general. Okay, now click, you know, whatever, you know, storage in general Like I don't see storage. Did you click on general?

Yeah, I don't see storage Well, tell me what you see I see tells me how much RAM I have okay You must be on about go back So what do you mean back look at the top of the detail pain? Do you see a left facing like less than sign like a sideways V point and left? Yeah, click that and then since the point where they said how was I supposed to figure that out? And you say I don't know it's not like being stateful is good But when you have a UI that is that not obvious on the phone It's more obvious and phone we're kind of used to there's gonna be like a back left facing You know chevron on the upper left corner to go back like I think we're used to doing that on the phone But on the Mac when you have all the screen space, especially when it remembers between launches But when you click on general on a sidebar, you don't see the list of all the things under general You see whatever detail playing you're previously in good from like a power user perspective I don't constantly have to dig back into that if I was in that but from a regular user perspective bed So I think they haven't really sorted out the like they try to use this UI to be more scalable And I you know agree you have all these settings and you want to scroll.

That's great I think they should make the window more resizable I think we can handle that we don't have to have fixed size windows in the Mac we can handle windows that resize and the UI Tries to you know be appropriate for the size of the window and I think this two level thing under general I don't think it's working yet. So I don't you know It's better since the sidebar scrolls right so how many items are in a general like nine put those into the groups on the left Hand side to make it a flat hierarchy at least then people won't get won't have to guess how many of these items on left Have multiple things underneath them and how many don't because you can't tell that looking at them. You just have to know It's a bit of a mess isn't it a bit Alright, so let me ask you hopefully this is not a mess tell me about a shared photo library So I'm super excited. I really honestly super excited about this So tell me is it even close to you ready?

I'm excited about it too These are the first set of betas the ones that came out today ish that have support for I caught a photo library I just tried it on Mac OS But I think it's in the iOS betas and iPad was made as another stuff right obviously This is a feature that's being added to the existing photos app Which is not great and continues to be not great and really weird But the the feature they added this specific feature went pretty smoothly from you doing a test app lighting The only hiccup I had is and this always happens to me is like you know I have a test app ID and I wanted to make another test app ID to be in a family group with this test app lighting an Apple today on July 6th Just would not let me make an app ID Just matter what I did go to the web try to do it through the various Mac apps system So many different ways you can create an Apple ID create a child Apple ID create an adult Apple ID create an iCloud Cloud dot com Apple ID create an Apple ID for you know a Gmail address Apple just said no I tried for about an hour today to create an Apple ID and the farthest I got was a you know I was on the final screen of making happen I think it was doing the web and the arm as it I got was you cannot create an Apple ID at this time try again later And if you go for that you see lots of people saying oh sometimes Apple servers are weird or whatever like really Are there whole days where you can't create an Apple ID? Anyway, I couldn't create an Apple ID So I could not actually share my shares photo library with anybody But it still lets you go through the feature and see how it works just by your lonesome So when you launch photos and you go to its settings, it's so weird for me I go into looking for the preferences item in my eyes like The skimmer right over settings like what else preferences? I was going to say anyway If you go to the photos menu go to settings you used to just have general and I thought I think now there's a third top Level item called shared library and as little thing it says you know I clap share photo library explains what it is and you hit start set up and you go through this little setup process It's pretty simple and it constantly prompts you to add people to your family or do all this stuff or whatever I had to sort of Cancel out of that and say no I don't have I have a family But I'm the only person in it. No, I can't create it prompts you at that point to create an Apple ID Would you like to create a child app lighting that doesn't work either like again on July 6th?

There was no way to create that very often it would I go through the whole process there would say prove you're an adult Then it would make you verify your credit card branching the C V V value or whatever Right and then it would ask the person's name and give them an email address and ask for their birthday and do all this stuff And they make you go through this again This is on a Mac native UI inside the photos app It's prompting you to do all this stuff to like create a child account for your family And you'll get to the very last screen and it will show an indeterminate little spinner after you click the like you know Do it button and it would just spin forever and it will never actually create an app like it's eventually maybe it's a venture A beta thing again I tried doing it through Safari adventure as well and it's also wasn't working But anyway me and my lonesome test Apple ID as the only person in my family was able to make a iCloud shared photo library Once you do that the settings pane shows the following items here are the participants and you can add participants And I think you can add participants that are not in your family I didn't know because I'm actually obviously not going to add anybody any real Apple IDs to this because I'm not I don't yet trust that it is all working and everything and I wouldn't want to you know make a shared photo library with like a Member of my actual family and somehow the later I can't add them to my real shared photo library So I didn't do that but you can have participants as a checkbox for shared library suggestions It says when enabled you appear I could receive suggestions or photos and videos that you may want to add to the shared library That's not a thing I mentioned during setup. It says hey We may do a shared photo library What do you want to add to it and you can pick add all my photos to it or not add to it? What do you want to move to it move all my photos to it move photos based on a date or all manually move stuff myself? And it's not like this is a one-time choice like in any point in the future You can do any of these things but the checkboxes photos or something in the OS will suggest to you When it thinks you should move some photos to the shared library based on I don't know like that stuff I'm talking about like when you're in proximity to people or and an event with a bunch of people and taking pictures of them Or recognize their faces and all sorts of suggestions or whatever so you can do that or not And then the final item is delete notifications We talked about this earlier like oh anyone you add to the shared photo library can do edits and deletes isn't that bad?

Well, if you're afraid of your cell and teenager deleting pictures themselves They don't like at the very least you can get a notification when they delete a picture And then you can go into recent items and rescue it And I think you can protect recent like recently deleted items with a password so they can't like permanently delete them So that's better than nothing in terms of like making sure someone doesn't like go rogue on your shared library and Hose everything because if you can get a notification and you can password lock the recent deletes that'll help a lot But once you've done that photos launches and it just looks like photos But now at the top there's a new item a new pop-up menu where it has three options You can see your personal library Which is just the only thing you would ever see in the previous version of photos is just your photo library, right? You can see your shared library or you can see both libraries Which shows you the union of all the photos of your personal and share and that is great I was afraid it wouldn't have this feature you can't switch back and forth But no it will show you the union of them and you can it'll put a tiny little badge on the photos Indicating which ones are in the shared library and which ones are not This is this is where you start to get into limitations of the Mac photos app like the Mac photos app is so stingy about what information it Will put on the main sort of photo thumbnail screen It's got this giant canvas with all these little thumbnails and the most it will do is put these tiny little monochrome icons in the upper right hand corner Of the photos it's like can you just show me the keywords underneath the photos like you used to know if you say show keywords I think it'll show a little little icon that indicates this photo has keywords We're not gonna tell you which one we don't have room on the screen to put text but yeah, it's got keywords It's got location data It will put the file name of all things I don't want to put it will put the file name like I want to see the file name like I am g0057 dot You know Keep or whatever like I don't need to see the file name show me the keyword I know all that is to say that it will show you which ones are in the shared library if you squint and turn that thing on and It will show the union of both of them and you don't have any limitations You just use it use that union view all you want you can move things if you right click on a photo You can move that photo into the shared library you move it out of the shared library The right click menu is continuing to be really limited to some features are in the right click menu Some features are only in the menu some features are I mean the menu bar some features are both places And when you do move things to share library you can do more than one I want to see just do any kind of selection and right click and do move to the library It'll show you a little message It says moving these photos to share library will out share library participants to view edit this content at any time Just warning you that you know Hey when you put it into a shared place is no longer just yours and it all worked like I mean Obviously, I'm doing a shared library with I'm just sharing with myself But I can take my photos and move them to and from the shared library is even integrated into the import process So you import photos into photos you can choose if you want to import them into your library If you want to import them into the shared library very little Surface area for this feature a few pop-up menus one extra item in settings a few items in menus But it does what it's supposed to do like the limitations of the photos app that make it annoying continue to be there But the addition of this feature does not make them any worse and the addition this feature I think was done in a way that is pretty obvious I mean it was obviously some looking for it but like there's not there's not a lot to stumble over be confused about There's a couple of new pop-up menus a couple of new little settings and they all are clearly explained and work the way you'd want them to And I'm actually very excited about upgrading to winter now for this feature alone because it seems like it's seems like it's gonna work And it seems like it does pretty much everything that I want it to do the in particular delete notifications is all the peace of mind I need to know that I'm not accidentally messing You know, we know someone doesn't accidentally do something foolish and delete things that if I get a notification I can just do that I'll be fine And the fact that I can sort of manually move photos on as I gain confidence like I'll just you know check a bunch of photos And I'll just use all the new photos in the shared library or whatever just like I can move to it at my own pace Instead of just saying hey, we're gonna convert your whole library to share Do you have to pick up front which ones do you want to convert that I can do it manually one at a time? It still bothers my mind They sort of non uniformity of UI in photos where the right click menus seem to be made by an entirely different team than you bar And they don't talk to each other like the copy edits and paste that it's thing It's so inconsistent the keywords the location stuff like it just does not work like a normal Mac out But the functionality is there if you know where to find it and are willing to fight the UI to get it But I'm but overall I'm pretty happy with the Mac incarnation of this feature I mean I'm using an intestinal library with a dozen photos instead of a real photo library which has 145,000 So we'll see how it goes, but I get this a cautious thumbs up And like I said using this has made me anxious now to upgrade to ensure knowing full well that I can't actually upgrade Dementia and tell it's out for real because there's no way I'm going to subject a my real photo library to a beta But I'm actually kind of looking forward to it. That's really good news.

I'm super stoked about that That should be really great. Yeah, this is one of those things that assuming that they get it to work You know well, it sounds like they're on their path This is one of those things that we didn't have for years and we you know we're constantly yelling about it We're gonna get it and we're going to instantly forget about it And it's just gonna be one of those things that like oh we just have this now like this problem that we've had for so long is Hopefully just gonna be solved and that'll be it and it'll just you know We Apple will put in all these years of effort right this to work for about a minute of thanks for the public We're all gonna then just take it off for granted and just assume instantly of course this problem is Solve what you're talking about like we're hopefully we're just not gonna think about it more because that's largely That's how iCloud photo library is for individuals with you know the same thing and everything like that Like it largely works very very well And for the most part like you just don't think about it like most people you just take a phone your Take a picture your phone and a few minutes later It's on your Mac and that's it and you don't have to like you can make edits in one place and it goes to the other one eventually or quickly Depends on conditions, but you know like it's a pretty good solid system You don't hear a lot of stories people having problems at iCloud photo library It's a pretty great solid system And so if if they went to this with you know similar care and a similar platform and similar skill which it sounds like they did I expect this is just gonna pretty much work and we're gonna all instantly forget about it Which is great one of the things we talked about when we would discuss this feature in the past and you get a lot of pushback It's like well, that's so complicated How are you gonna figure out like which photo goes where or what you're looking at and there's so many different ways you could do this And you want to give individual people control and who has permissions and like it is a large complicated problem space And the way Apple has tackled this when they're successful in features like this is they they choose a subset of features That they think is that they can implement and that is understandable to people and they make sure that subset is big enough to cover most use cases But small enough that they can present a UI to it in a way that doesn't overwhelm right So you have an example where they may have misfired and it's like focus modes focus modes overwhelms a little bit Like if you try to set that up on a phone and it's asking you all these questions You have to make all these decisions and it's a little bit overwhelming It's really kind of a power user feature right and it is very complicated and it's not very clear what's going on And shared photo libraries people are always saying there's no way Apple can do this is too complicated people will understand it The way they've chosen to do it is so simple with so few decisions to make and so little new UI to learn and the UI that is there It's just incredibly straightforward doesn't really require much of an explanation It's like you get it and that's it and it just becomes fades back into the background It's not a thing that you think about anymore It doesn't have all the features that you can imagine for a shared photo library I would like more granular permissions for what people can do I would like if you only it's all sorts of stuff you can think of that you could add to this But this is a baseline version one to get the thing working I don't know if I've ever expand on it But just the downside of Mac development all these days But but I think the subset of features they've chosen is good enough to cover most people's needs Probably also include a melon and it's so simple so not like you're there's no wizard You're gonna go through this can ask you eight thousand questions. There's no really complicated UI I think the UI they previously probably still have for shared photo libraries is more complicated and confusing and worse than this UI And that's a simpler feature So kudos to figuring out the right subset of things to make and against just Mac photos I don't know what it looks like I'm at the right subset of features to make this simple for users while still accomplishing the goal Which is I don't want to have to log into my house account to deal with the family photos Now this will be really great because we have the opposite arrangement in our family where I am the keeper of the family photo album And Aaron basically doesn't have swatch He has the last month of her own pictures on her phone and then that's it and so for her to have access to you know All of our family pictures going back you know 15 17 years of any of our relationship I think it'll be really great for her and I'm really really looking forward to this thanks to our sponsors this week Square space instabug and work check and thanks to our members who support us directly you can join at ATP.fm Slash join we will talk to you next week Now the show is over they didn't even need to begin Because it was accidental Accidental accidental John did do any research Marco and Casey wouldn't let him because it was accidental But you can find the show notes at ATP And if you're into Twitter you can follow them at A S E Y L I S S so that's Casey list and a RC O A R M Marco R men AC Oh I've been doing Swift UI. Oh, yes.

How's that going my friend? I saw you complaining about that on Twitter Oh, I I had a good talk on the underscore today on under the radar So you should go listen to that but I've basically resigned myself to the fact that I If I'm going to continue to be a professional iOS programmer like if this is going to continue to be my career I have to jump into Swift UI I feel like the equivalent now of having a really big carbon app in like 2008 So it's like, you know, I can see the writing on the wall for most of the code I have and for most importantly for the knowledge I have I know objective C and UI kit really really well and That's not helping me right now. Like that's right If you were to start writing a brand new app today If you wrote the whole thing in objective C people think you're weird and you're gonna miss out on a lot of the advantages from tooling And a lot of the newest APIs and things like that You're making it harder on yourself needlessly and so no question Swift is the language you should be using for any new iOS or Maca But the UI framework thing is is a different question. So if UI is still very early, however Every time I write UI kit code I get that same feeling as I'm running new get to see code like I shouldn't be doing this It's been made a little more complicated by the recent developments in UI kit feel like If I could borrow a term from Joel Spolsky it forever ago it feels like the UI kit team has been taken over by architecture astronauts and The the amount of abstraction and layers and nitpick configuration and stuff that's going into the latest changes over the last few years in UI kit Like where they're going.

I don't want to follow them Can you think of an example of hand where this is getting ugly to you in UI kit? Yeah, so all the new button configuration stuff table So configuration stuff collection view like a lot of this stuff The old way of doing things was more primitive But another way to say that is simpler and they've created these new levels and levels of abstractions and management classes configuration classes and different things above it that you're now expected to use and many of the old methods and are being deprecated Where they're going like I tried playing with a lot of the new UI kit stuff I was doing my redesign last last fall and winter and it was just a lot more code to do the same things for me And it seemed like they're optimizing for needs and preferences that are different from mine I have many similar complaints with swift itself. I mean swift the languages. I mean they're in space at this point Like they're I don't know what they're doing in certain areas of the language But but at least most of those most of those most don't get in my way But there I mean there are certain things like to fix an iOS 15 deprecation morning I had to start using async for one of my cloud kit calls from my own They were just log in screen a queries cloud kit for for the list of accounts that are associated with your Apple ID That way I don't have to get like you know using the password I can just you know pull from cloud kit here that here the list of account tokens I know exists from your Apple ID And so it's a very very basic cloud kit thing and I had to switch over to an async call They've already deprecated the previous query method for some reason So I had to you know edit this totally fine working code that I never touched and adding this I had to add so many more Things are where it's like they in an effort to make this simpler They've made it even more complex and in certain cases like they went so far over the top like they were It's just like a simple cloud kit fetch query like you know fetch records matching the square It returns this complicated result object with like two different layers of generics and it's you know You know less than greater than symbols and it's complete so like you autocomplete the the closure completion for dealing with these records and The type it gives you is full of generic gobbledygook You have no way to know what you're supposed to type into this box to actually like what type is this variable?

If you just let autocomplete errors out and give you an even more complicated error message you can't understand What is like a big code example in documentation, right? Got him so eventually I like I like start looking up like Google blog post about like how to have to use this stuff And the answer is as far like and tell is actually it's some kind of complicated result result result and you have to say like you know result dot zero dot you know Result so they can and that's actually in your shipping code that you have to have that result dot zero and I'm like who is designing these things I'm sure they have their reason they have very smart people there But whatever they're doing in certain areas is drifting apart from any way I think of coding and any way I want to be going and UI kit itself is in many ways going in that direction and so Heading back a few levels in the stack here swift UI I think is what I need like if I'm going to keep making iOS apps for my career And that's my intention, you know, then swift UI is what I have to learn I've resigned myself to that I don't necessarily have to have everything in the app be swift UI that I think is is probably still too early for that in In terms of the framework development But I have to start using a lot of swift UI and really getting good with it and using it by default and only bailing out of it When I really have to as opposed to bailing out of it for comfort reasons or for you know, familiarity So that's where I am now and I was I've been working on it all day trying to like replicate some of the base Structure of overcast in switch to watch to see like is it even possible? I'm slowly getting there it is is a slog but I'm like I'm I'm finally in like the very very slight Upswing part of it. We're like I'm starting to finally get some traction and some progress And so I'm like just starting to be motivated to keep going on it.

So that's that's my mood for the day My mood up there I know this is my feelings podcast because I don't have one like you guys So this is where I am today I am slowly getting better at swift UI and slowly starting to think I should probably switch to it because the alternative would be like If I said, yeah, I'm just gonna use carbon forever, you know 2008 well that's gonna limit your career then and The usefulness of your code base, you know, you're gonna put a cap on the age of that Well, this is this is how I feel about you know first of all swift obviously is a requirement at this point like I all of my Just see code I regret it all and I wish it was also it would make certain things a lot easier But swift UI I think is that now I think the idea like right now the way you would feel about writing a deck of c code in a brand new app today I think we're gonna feel that way about writing UI kit code instead of Swift UI in maybe three to five years Maybe sooner probably not but I'm missing five years from now the idea of writing a brand new screen or a brand new app using UI kit Instead of Swift UI is gonna seem very backwards So I want to for once be slightly ahead of things and and go where the puck is being thrown Because I'm tired of my of my knowledge and my code base being out of date And so I want to actually move forward at a reasonable time instead of five years too late Well, you wait until they had a WWC where they said hey dummy you like it. Mm-hmm. App kit no Yes, but yeah, you know as we said when we talked about the WDC thing that is an aspirational goal They're not there, but they have clearly indicated directions. So yes, you're moving now to assess your level of not level of frustration, but level of I Don't know how far have you gotten into Swift UI one good indicator?

I think is have you yet implemented an if modifier as an extension on view in Swift UI? Oh my god Everyone who ever one who encounters this I mean it's you google for and you'll find it because when you're writing Swift You're not used to declare it if you're like can I just write a conditional and you can write conditionals in Swift UI Like you can do it's not but it's not like it looks like a regular Swift conditional But it's not right and there are things you can't do from it because it's not a real conditional So it is possible to make you know, you can just do you know like a dot padding, you know Dot accessibility label dot whatever, you know dot modify as your dot training off of the various things in this with you I view you can make it dot if and it was like like a week into this and I said, you know what if it I need something it's like that if and you just google for it And it's like you know, it's like ten lines of code. It's really easy to do and once you have it You're just you know, I feel better I know you're kind of like fighting against the declared major But sometimes it makes things so much easier kind of like a view that fits that they added I love their naming It's like it's just a frustration of like well sometimes I want to have this view but sometimes when the thing is this I don't have this view and I can do all this geometry reader stuff Fair which one's gonna fit and use the right one and this is the case where I'd be like doing an if like Dot if this then do this kind of you but they made a whole built-in view I'm not built like part of such wise view that fits and you just say hey Here's the two possibilities just pick the one that fits like don't make me do the math don't make me figure it out You know view that fits I feel like that if there's a similar type of thing You're like I could do this another way, but just not if right I still have a place in my code where I want to do an H stack or a V stack based on some value And I can't figure out how to do that because you can't do like a dot if you know You don't want to say I guess I can take everything that's in the H stack and the V stack and break it out into a function It's not that much stuff. So now I have like if this H stack else V stack and I wish I could do H stack or V stack Based on this parameter Something you could write but I take your point.

No, you totally can write that's like that's the same thing with that If like all it is it's not stick-tactic sugar directly because there is actually it is actually doing some more stuff like wrapping things In the view or whatever, but like but it's just like I don't want to see as much stuff here So I wish I could make this more compact will break it out into another sub function There's no efficiency problems with you I would have squished all back for you but I don't want to break it out or not if I just want to do it here I mean you end up doing extension view and you just start typing stuff and so many people have done this if you just Search GitHub for extension view open curly brace You would find so much stuff because just with you eyes credit You can make all sorts of you extensions that do really cool things and are super convenient But it's kind of like once you have that hammer everything looks like a new view modifier You just like I'm gonna make my eyes I'm gonna call whatever I want and they're gonna you know You can paint yourself into a quantum like that if it's a flagpole of like when you get when you reach the level of frustration I'm not understanding how it wants you to do things like can I just have if and you make that if that's impressive I haven't reached that level of hacks yet But one level I've used a lot is like making a custom view modifier just to get around the lack of an if available construct For like if I want to modify or on something It's only available say I was 15 and I'm writing for I was 14 and 15 then you have to make a custom view modifier That's like you know I was 14 compatible version of this and like you know inside of it like well if available this then modify the view otherwise Don't modify the view and it's just it's one of those like frustrating things like you know because you can't use a real if statement in a dot chain Then you can't use it available in a regular clean way I just put a base fit for you. It's ten lines of code. Don't paste this into your code. It'll be so easy attempting to use This is amazing.

That's it's not complicated code. Oh God what what a ridiculous thing is it? Both awesome and sad all at the same time. Oh man, I don't know I I have such mixed feelings about SwiftUI And I think because I'm a really crummy UI designer and developer I there's a lot that I like about SwiftUI because I think it helps me as someone who is an amateur at best when it comes to this stuff It helps me create things that I think are aesthetically pleasing Without me feeling like I'm getting bogged down in pixel perfect BS where I'm trying to get UI kit to do something that doesn't really want to do And and I think that SwiftUI makes a lot of stuff It makes making things pretty a lot easier for me anyway But the downside is as many people have said many many times when you hit a wall and SwiftUI It's one of two things It's either like a a screen on my screen in porch where you can push your way through it if you really try like you can do dot-f if you will or It is the great wall of China and there is no getting through it over it around it It's that like there you shall not pass there is nothing you can do and those situations are so incredibly frustrating And and so often things that you think should be easy and I wish I could think of an example of this but things you would think Should be easy are very very very difficult Now the flip side of that is things that oftentimes you would expect to be difficult can be very easy But when the easy stuff is super hard, it's just infuriating and so I waffle in Okay, so I waffle back and forth between this is the greatest thing I've ever seen in my life And this is a pile of garbage that I wish I never saw before I think of something that one of those type of things that if there's no way to do it I'm kind of from I'm thinking of the type of hacks that I don't know the same natural to do in a pair of language One of the examples is I have a place in my code where I'm setting I have a bunch of like a you know I'm just something for that are gonna be on a pop-up menu Right and I put them in the order in the you know like in the order one I see them in the bottom and you're just for convenience I'm not writing a big fancy app.

It's simple I'm like my like user when I put them there But actually what I want in the real pop-up menu is I want it to be a separator between like you know You know the first two items and a separator than the rest of the items, right? This is a million ways to do that an app kit is really easy to add a separator whatever but being lazy program You're like I kind of like this being data driven I kind of like just be able to define the you know I'm gonna comment about that says by the way the order these things is important It's the order they're gonna appear in the pop-up menu and being able to add something that will automatically make the separator appear And I think it doesn't have that functionality I think it doesn't know hey give me an enum and like there's no way to express a separator item in an enum because like it shouldn't be Time to the UI, right? But I have this whole like data driven structure that's saying here's that we're gonna be the condenser I'm using everything and the enum is part of it and in that definition I can put an item that's just a string that's hyphen and then in the code when I'm building that pop-up menu I can say oh by the way if the item you got is not a menu item But it's just a hyphen put in a separator and I can do that because it's an imperative language and I could hook into any phase of The process I can hook into the thing is like here's where I'm building this pop-up menu and here's the data I'm being driven off of to do it And I just feed this data in and it goes into the generic system and it says if it's menu item put the menu item in there and if it's an enum Use the label the enum and have the value of the enum like it's it's you know data driven code Right, you don't want to do everything by hand right but what if you need a separator? I was throw hyphen in there and I say I'm writing the code I'm at the point where I'm reading the thing if I see a hyphen just put in a separator that type of plumbing that type of like override This method and write your imperative code here is not how Swift UI works.

It's declarative It's not like you're going to like subclass a thing override the methods where you want to override and do this on set up And this on tear down and whatever that's not how it works, right? And so it's not really a convenient place to say like I'm laying out a context menu By the way, I want it to be data driven or whatever and you can do that by you know making a view modifier that says Dot data driven context menu and then in the dot data driven context menu view extension put all that imperative code again But you feel like your mode switch and you feel like it's not you know I shouldn't be writing a you know my own extensions to view every time I want to do something It's just a different way of thinking about it But when you're faced with that situation with you why you're like what then what do I do like you know Do I make the fallback that maybe you know? You know it's just do a thing where you're gonna fall back to you I get or I'm going to make this whole thing driven by you I get but then have this subset of it be Swift UI just like that I do wonder about it mentions the best shows what would you do if there was no you like it? What would you do if there was no app?

Well, you know so if you I wouldn't work with half things is still going to cover use you I can have kid But setting that aside if there was no lower level to drop down to how would you do the weird imperative thing where you look for hyphen In a data structure when you write some code that's when it sees that hyphen and add them and you separate it Which is not a feature of any framework and just some BS you made up yourself to make your thing more convenient So you wouldn't have to manually write a bunch of code I don't know I think about that when I'm doing hacks like that of like hey This wasn't here what would be my alternative and I don't really know the answer well I think it would be largely like the earlier days of the web where a lot of times like you know I suppose you wanted to say have a very custom behavior appearance of a certain form control and browser would render it using Some kind of UI which you're from the platform and a lot of times certain customizations wouldn't be possible I think it would be a lot like that You know you would just at that time we web developers would just kind of accept like well ideally We would have the app look and work like this but because of the limitations of the browser We can't really do that so we'll just suck it up like I think that's the answer Well what we do is you make an image it's okay This is not gonna be a you know submit button It's gonna be an image I'm gonna use JavaScript that when I get the mouse down on the image and I'm gonna change the image to be the mouse That like you'd basically custom implement your button in fact This you know in switch glass my little app that shows a one tiny thing on the screen I was using the Swift UI button capital B You know type for my buttons for like I don't know I don't know more than half of the versions until I just gave up because I could not get it to do what I wanted to do And I just had to stop using button and basically Reimple my own button the same way you would do it on the web You know back before CSS could style submit buttons you'd make it an image You'd try to grab mouse down yourself You'd set your own mouse down state you detect mouse up you detect like you basically reimple my button half-ass Reimpleation of button just so you can get it to do what you wanted to do and of course it doesn't look like the native UI And of course the real solution is please let us use the SSI form controls Which took many years for it to come but yeah, that's that's the alternative is like well I can't use button I give up I tried for for six months and button just says too many bugs and my thing by the way the bug was like If you drag something if you like pick a file off your desktop and drag it over the went my window It's already weird that you can drag something over my window is it's a floating palette and the active app is fine You're not the thing but you want it to react to your drag You want to detect your drag and you want to highlight that thing where you're already holding down the mouse button and you drag Thing over it You can wiggle it back and forth over my palette and you could get the Swift UI button into a state where it didn't realize you were No longer on it and the mouse over state would stuck it would say stuck you have to wiggle it a lot But you could do it like you could outrun the mouse tracking and I just could not get rid of that bug because I don't control that I don't control the mouse tracking that's happening in the layer below if I was using app Get out of control because that could I have access all that mouse tracking and mouse tracking regions and all that Stuff but I'm not using app get it's with you I button that's saying oh so do I button door it knows when the mouse is over it mm-hmm It doesn't it gets confused and then my app has a cosmetic bug is now if the highlights they get stuck and you know You put the file back down on the desktop and you look up at the thing and it stuck So I had to give up a button and I had to implement it myself And that's that definitely felt like web UI of like oh you can't style form controls with CSS implement it yourself within image map Oh those were the days I'm hoping that so the discipline I'm going to try to have here is to be more flexible on my requirements and to actually Give in a lot of those cases where if the you know stock behavior or some control or the achieve the easily achievable behavior or some control Or appearance on control is not exactly what I want but I can make it work You know don't just make it work because one goal I have here You know I have eight years of code here and my so my ui kit code is even my ui kit code is not only You have to see so it's you know to be more verbose than a switch equivalent But also it's like using all old ui kit methods of doing things So there's you know a lot of kind of boilerplate going on everywhere and you know manly setting you know borders and stuff like that I'm hoping and I think this is reasonable to expect that a swift ui reimplementation of a lot of the stuff should be Way less code and that would I would see a lot of value in having way less code especially the ui level So I'm hoping that's achievable here And if it is I'm willing to give up some of the little details if it ends up being way less code I think that's a reasonable and pragmatic trade-off to make and I'm dubious that Mark or mens is capable of making that trade-off just because I know how much you like things to be you know Exactly just the way you want but if you can stick with it I think that's a perfectly perfectly reasonable and again pragmatic trade-off to make that's a big if that is a big