56: Oedipus at Colonus

Hi and welcome to classical stuff. You should know we are a podcast about the classical world classical philosophy old books old things old people We are only moderately old ourselves wait what and we pretty much are just trying to bring classicism to you in a way That is digestible for the normal person because it should be right their classics for a reason which yeah I like those digestive cookies digestive cookies. I just aren't all cookies digested. Yeah, those digestive.

You don't digest of cookies in states Well, they were created back in like the 19th century England this sort of aid in digestion their Yeah, I think they taste gross. Oh, they cut their kind of bland What happened was a baker made some terrible cookies I was like, I'll just call these they're good for digestion and then he sells it back in the day of like making things that you thought had Healthy reason so like hot chocolate back in the day was a medicinal drink and then because I thought that the cocoa bean was You know, and then they didn't put any sugar and it tasted gross But you drank it because they thought it was it was healthy granola was invented in this way To find like a super nutrient like a super nutrient food for the workers They have this in England and so digestive cookies were part of this and we're new podcast of food stuff Yeah, no food stuff anyway, okay. Anyway, my name is AJ Hanenburg. I am joined by my two fellows Graham Donaldson We're not gonna say anything.

Oh, I was gonna say Thomas. Oh, I'm Graham Donaldson and Thomas Maggie We are all three educators at a classical Christian school in Austin, Texas called Veritas Academy And we all really like our jobs and we love teaching and we take it seriously. So this podcast isn't just about teaching So it's it's about classes in general So you don't have to be a teacher to enjoy this you do have to be a student of life. Oh, yeah But like that's for everyone right yeah, that's no one should be a lifelong student So I'm gonna talk about this last episode that the humanities are for humanizing us.

So like yeah, this is available to everyone Yep, Nicole. Make you free. Yeah, that's why it's called a liberal liberal arts. Yep.

Okay. Yeah, that was a long intro So today a minute we are jumping into another old Greek play. I told you old people were all about a level and Maggie Will be leading us through it. It's the sequel to edifice, right?

Yeah, are we turning into a Methuselah fancast? Like we're just gonna talk about old people like you're talking about the oldest people dude Do you I wrote a poem about Methuselah once well, no when recently no in college and I went this is wow We are so off track. That's what I'm here for but did you know his dad was was one of the dudes that never died? He was taken up by chariot into the skies and so as Methuselah put yourself in his place your dad never died He was taken up into the skies right around year 800 I'd be like maybe that was supposed to happen to me and God just forgot and I thought boy You just got to be questioning how things are really supposed to shake down So I wrote a poem about it and I think the premise the conceit was that God had prepared a deep reservoir of human experience And then he could go and he came as a mosquito and then drank and was blood and like I was already experienced Weird when you read it on the podcast.

Oh, it's weird. My poetry is weird. Yeah, we do. We need a new poetry I read our old bad teenage poetry.

I would bring mine. My own poetry was good I still think it was really bad. We will submit it to the readers or show listeners for I wrote one about a guy who cremates animals And his daughters like jumping on the horse bodies. I told you it's weird.

I wrote weird stuff Yeah, before we get into this. Yes a digestive biscuit Sometimes described as a sweet meal biscuit is a semi-sweet biscuit that originated in Scotland and is popular worldwide except apparently here popular, huh? Yeah, it's a different definition. Okay.

Yeah, so we are under not crazy. I will not Pilot under there. That's a small file. I've been filing things in there.

There's not many much. Yeah, yeah, so today we are continuing in So a couple weeks ago, we talked about it if it's Rex we're continuing with us I can play in that trilogy but not actually in the trilogy if that sentence makes no sense to you go back and listen to Oedipus Rex And my favorite thing about that episode might be I think the final name for it is Oedipus Rex W-R-E-C-K-S I was imagining Rex. I was imagining him as a pro wrestler. My name is Oedipus Rex and that I'm sorry.

It's not Oedipus. So yeah, today is going to be Oedipus at Colonus. So as we talked about before So there are three plays that are considered today the Theban cycle or the Oedipus cycle, but for understandable reasons It's more commonly called the Theban cycle. So Again, these three plays were not written together.

So they were not submitted as one competitive cycle of plays But they come from three separate years. Same author. Same author all by Sophocles. So that's what ties them together Why we can still call them the Theban cycle called the three plays of the Theban cycle.

But are they a trilogy like Star Wars? They kind of play off each other. This isn't a super important point But the order that I'm talking about them here is Oedipus the King or Oedipus Rex, Reckoning King. This one is Oedipus at Colonus and then in the future we'll talk about Antigone.

Well, the order that they were written we talked about this before is that Antigone came first, Oedipus the King came second, Oedipus at Colonus came last and in fact was after Sophocles had died. So they don't have like the big reveal. I'm your father and brother. No, so I mean that would happen.

So that happened. Again, well just like Darth Vader. Yeah, it's a much darker starboard to that. I don't like that.

We're not even getting close to being relevant. Star Wars is old. Please gentlemen, Twilight Volleys. Be relevant somehow.

Do we need to tie this into Twilight somehow? I sure hope not. Is Twilight just like a Mormon allegory? Is that what started as Harry Potter fiction fiction?

No, no. That was vampires. What's the one that started as Harry Potter fiction? I thought this was gonna bother me.

So I've heard that the longest fan fiction ever written was about Pokemon and it's something like a 20,000 pages long. Do we just read that on this podcast instead? I don't know why we are doing anything else. Do we need to have a fan cast about that?

Well, we can do a little fan fiction thing at the end of the podcast. It took its inspiration from this play we're talking about. So we're setting it up. You know the people are gonna take that and tell their friends that the longest fan fiction ever is based on Sophocles.

Let's do it then. It's not true. Doing the Lord's work. So we're in banking all of a second.

You sure showed them? Okay, so it's happening. We're 10 minutes in. Anyway, we're rocking it.

Okay, so Stephen's cycle we're on the second of the three plays in the order that we're following here. So again, kind of going in. So we're following the order of the play universe, essentially. So, Edipis the King happens first.

That's where Edipis finds out some bummer stuff about his life, namely that he killed a dude who turned out to be his dad and married a lady who turned out to be his mom and he has kids who are both his daughters who are his sisters and then sons who are also his brothers. So that ends poorly with Edipis's wife, mother taking her life and Edipis stabbing out of his eyes and then leaving the city. So Graham also off of your last question to the plays build off of each other kind of, but you'll you notice differences when reading them because they're each part of a different cycle. There are inconsistencies between them.

Namely, in Edipis at Clonus and taking these much older than at the end of Edipis Rex. So Edipis Rex, this is actually in the stage directions, so I have this like, I'm curious if Robert Faggles like added this as a translator, but he is, he specifies that the children are young when they walk out to see Edipis off, but Edipis at Clonus and Tigny is much older. She's a woman and Edipis talks about when he left as if his children were much older than they were in the play that we just read. So there's some differences between them, but by and large, it's following some characters, following some family through this all.

The other part that's kind of a bummer in reading in this order is that what passes for a happy ending happens in this play, not in Tigny. So you kind of get your high point and then you come back under Earth in the next play, so we'll talk about that eventually. All right, so I'm just going to start going through it and I have a bunch of lines in here to read. I guess we'll just go from there.

Okay, so again, Edipis Rex, Edipis the king, wrapped up with Edipis being kicked out of the city and- Self kicked out, if I recall. That's fair, so he, the spares of life right off bat and then decides that leaving the city would be better than killing himself, and so he leaves the city. He will re-remember that as we go later into the play. There's an interesting way to read this play where it's like, he has become old and like, because he's been focused on how angry he is for so long, he's just like, changed the details of the story, but I don't think that was intended by Sophocles, but it should have been.

Okay, so Edipis and Tigny roll up to the city, Kelownis, which is where the play gets his name, Edipis at Kelownis. Do you want to know anything about Kelownis? They made Sweet Smelling for a few for man. I guess.

Wasn't that featured in one of the Star Wars movies? I'm talking about Kelownis. I need to work out a bit of something that I can work in the podcast. So Kelownis is a city that's about a mile from Athens, it's very close to Athens, and it is also where Sophocles is from.

That's probably also an interesting thing about it. Sophocles kind of invents this myth around Kelownis and I tried looking into does anyone else say these things about the city? And the answer is basically no. There's this prophecy that the play ends with about the greatness of the city, and I don't think any of that ever happens.

So again, the city was wishful thinking of Sogli. So he wrote this play right before he died, and then again, like I said, it was performed after his death. So I don't know, there's something about him wanting his city to be remembered. Kind of sweet, right?

Like the last thing he writes is kind of a letter. But there's songs in the 1950s talking about how amazing Kansas City is. And you're like, well, Kansas City ever really made it to the same heights as Chicago and New York, although they thought it was going to maybe like post-war. But if you're a listener from Kansas City, I'm so sorry.

I sincerely apologize. I would write a letter to my hometown of Spokane. It has its quirks. It's got its potholes.

It's got a lot of potholes. But I don't know. There's something wonderful about the people there and all of their... You can write a poem with problems.

You can write a poem with your hands when you're on this. I would definitely write a poem about it. And then read it on this podcast. Yeah, that's a good idea.

Okay, so main character is Edipus and Antigone. So again, Antigone is one of the daughters of Edipus. Edipus has two daughters. They'll come in later.

So Edipus and Antigone are walking and they come to Kelownis and the play starts with them wandering into a grove that is dedicated to the furies. Oh gosh. Who are the furies? Who's three of them?

Conscience monsters. They are flying harpy witches. And their job is to wreck your life if you somehow cross... It's not just cross them, but it's if you do things like cross-law.

Cross-law, yeah. So they come after... Arresties. Arresties.

I was going to say Edipus, but that's not right then. They come after arresties when he kills his mother. Because he's supposed to have been just father and then he must kill his mother, but that ends up being matricide, which is forbidden by the furies. And so they hound him even though he was kind of in a catch-22.

That's right. Fun fact, our campus is getting campus cats to help keep the snake and bug and squirping population in check and we shouldn't name them after the furies. I think so too. Everybody kind of wants to name them after the houses and I think fury names would be fantastic.

I think we're going to go through a number of cats on the campus because of vultures and coyotes and stuff. But maybe we can have both. So we need to get her some of the really big cats. The furies?

Like a bobcat. We can get a bunch of bobcats. They train them. Yeah, but then what do we need to train them for?

We just need to meet them. Well then our kindergarten population will go down. No, I'm just talking about our grammar school. Yeah, it's terrifying.

It is one thing that you teach in our non-administrator school. You're like, you're a large cat population. I got one word for you guys. Bobcats.

They're not that big. Okay. I don't think they would carry off kindergartners. They don't usually work as a team.

Okay, great. Our bobcat expert. Okay. You say that it's if it's not true.

Are you actually other than the Northwest? No, I don't bobcats. They exist up there. No judgment.

Actually, that's a nice idea. Hopefully that makes you go to the poem. Oh, is Angstie Pong about how we don't take him seriously for his bobcat knowledge? Um, and this is the episode when I quit the podcast.

This is it for me, folks. Enjoy the audio stylings of these two gentlemen. Yeah. That would be a super boring podcast.

Please never leave. Okay. So, um, so I write some reason of my other things that I talk about and we're one line into 20. Sorry.

Yeah. No, we're fine. This is much more entertaining. The entire audience is going to be like, oh man, this first 15 minutes were great.

And then the last 45. Okay. Okay. So, uh, it doesn't take to make it to this grove of the theories at Clonus.

So you're talking about these theories. They're they're not great characters. Um, um, often associated with revenge. So you're saying like someone will break a law or kill someone.

The theory is come back to write that wrong to make that right. So it's probably, it probably doesn't sound great for him to wander into this place. He, um, especially with his past. So yes.

So things already gone so badly for him. He straight up, he just, uh, he walks up into Clonus. He's just looking for places to sit down and he accidentally, not, I mean, he intends to sit on the rock, but he sits on a holy rock in this like grove dedicated to the theories, which also feels like a bummer. Um, so he gets called out immediately by the city by the people of Clonus and they say, hey, please move off that rock.

Um, so this is when Edipus finds out that this place is dedicated to the theories. And he starts getting really excited for reasons that aren't entirely clear at this point in the story. Um, he'll then, uh, a little while later, um, has not incredibly nice things to say, but so he finds out that this grove is dedicated to the theories and then he goes off and, um, after the people of Clonus leave, he's talking about the theories. Uqueens of terror, faces filled with dread.

Since yours is the first holy ground where I've sat down to rest in this new land, I beg you, don't be harsh to Apollo, harsh to me. When the god cried out, there's lifelong prophecies of doom. He spoke of this as well. I promised to rest after hard years weathered.

I will reach my goal, he said, my haven. Where I find the ground of the awesome goddesses and make their home my home. There I will round the last turn, the torment of my life. A blessing to the hosts I live among.

Disaster to those who sent me drove me out and warned me. The signs of all these things will come in earthquake, thunder perhaps, or the flashing bolt of Zeus. So when he's talking about the prophecy of Apollo, that's, um, Oracle Delphi, right? Not Apollo.

Okay. So, and the prophecy he's referencing were the series of prophecies, talked about in the Ephis Rex, um, about him killing his dad and marrying his mom. But then it's kind of like a retcon at this point. He like adds in like, oh, also, there's this other prophecy about how I was going to die after I found a grove of theories.

That's what he's saying right here. Okay. So, um, he is currently still hanging out on this rock that he's not supposed to be on. The Old Men of, um, um, um, Kelownus, the whole Corinth on here, which is totally not right.

But Kelownus, Old Men, uh, show up and they coax him off of this rock and- Come here. Yeah. Come on. It's- Come on.

If you were to read it, it's almost exactly that. And it's this whole back and forth of like, okay, I took a step. Is that enough? And the old people were like, no, take another step.

And it's just back and forth for a long time. It's kind of funny. Um, Ettipus. So far enough, chorus.

Just enough. You hear me? Ettipus. Now may I sit down?

Chorus. Move to the side a little. You're right at the rock's edge. Now crouch down.

It's very funny. Um, so they coax him off the rock. Is there a reason? Is there a reason- is there a reason why the rock is sacred?

Because it's dedicated to the theories. Like, it's- it's um, yeah, to grow for them and no one else is supposed to go into it. So no one else has been in this except for Ettipus who shows up and accidentally sit on it. So, uh, old people were like, hey, come off that rock.

Um, they say that they're going to help him. They're going to protect him. They want to find out what is going on with Ettipus. Well, they talk him off the rock and then almost immediately try to chase him out of the city once they figure out who he is.

Yeah, so they make this promise to protect him and watch out for him and then say, no, actually, you should leave our city because you're cursed. Which is not- that's a pretty good reaction. Like, of all- is Ettipus the guy that you want coming to your city? Especially if, like, theories are going- if the gods are going to enact their vengeance on the unnatural acts of- and the taboo acts of man, then like, yeah, I wouldn't want Ettipus hanging around.

Right. Because the theories, from what I understand, are like, they're all business and you don't really- you don't get to rationalize with the theories. No, do- what- there's a thing in ancient Greece where there was like a refuge city. Was that what's coming?

What city was that? I don't remember which city and I think there were a few of them. But if you say murder to friend and you could flee to one of these refuge cities and then you were safe. So Ettipus says that that city is Athens, so I don't know if that city changes over time.

I think- I mean, I'm referencing way, way ancient. Okay. So this, um, so the people- so like I just said, the people of Clonus are trying to tell him to leave the city, uh, and Ettipus doesn't like that. So he says, um, then what's the good of glory, magnificent renown, if in its flow, it streams away to nothing.

If Athens is that rock of reverence, all men say it is, the only city on earth to save the ruined stranger, the only one to protect him, give him shelter. Where are such kindness for me? First you raise me up from my sea in the grove, then you drive me off the land terrified by my name alone. It's really not my physique or what I've done.

So he's saying that Athens is supposed to be that place, where he's safe to go, but even he is kicked out of the city that's supposed to be safe to the stranger. So is it Athens that he's being kicked out of right now? So he's about a mile away from it. He is trying to get two Athens, but he is stopping at this grove.

And they're sort of booting him out. Yeah, they're trying to. Yeah, um, that's rough. He kind of feel bad for the guy.

Yeah. So, uh, Ettipus rex, Ettipus, the king of the last play we read, you don't feel badly for Ettipus. He is murderous, he is angry, he brings his fate upon himself almost. Again, it having been prophesied and destined that he would do these things makes it hard to talk about because it's almost, he didn't have a choice in those things.

But the only reason that he fell into the prophecy was because he tried to run from it. So there's still agency involved in it. Yeah, fate is weird with the ancients. Did we talk about this last podcast?

Oh, the little Iliad versus Odyssey view? Oh, no. So in the Iliad, it seems like everyone is subject to fate. Zeus himself, everyone falls into it.

Achilles falls into it after trying to resist it. He says, I'm gonna go home. I'm gonna leave. There's no point in doing this.

And then the death of his friend pulls him back and throws him into fate, right? For Hector, it's the same thing. No one avoids it. And then in the second book, in the Odyssey, it begins with a discussion of fate.

And, or at least how men view it. And Zeus is lamenting. He's like, look, all these people say that it's our fault. That the gods are responsible for all this stuff.

But look down at, oh man, what's his name? The guy who hung out with Clytemnestra. Adjust this. So look at it just this.

He blames us for his problems when in reality, he is the one breaking all these laws. He made the choices. He did these things. It is it is on him and not us, right?

Man is responsible for the choices they make. So there's this weird duality where man is completely subject to fate and so are the gods. But man also chooses the things. It's it's weirdly similar to what happens in Christianity.

Oh, interesting in terms of in terms of we have human agency yet. If there's also gods, providence. There's also gods, providence, and foreknowledge. If you're interested in that topic, you can go back and re-listen to our Boethius podcast.

Oh, it was fun. And there's a lot of studio audience. So let me put his good. It was good.

We only had 40 minutes. Let me contribute. He has a quote in here that ties in with that. So again, so in Edipus the King, Edipus is not treated charitably.

It is his fault that these things happen. He brings it upon himself. It's about his choice. And then Edipus at Colonis is re-evaluating that idea.

And this happens a few times. And I'll read this first one. We might come to the other two major ones. So he just gives that thing where he says that Athens is supposed to accept me, because I'm a stranger.

That stuff has happened to me. I need safety and Athens promises that. And then says to the people there, you shouldn't be scared of me, because I'm an old dude and I'm not going to attack you. And then he says, since my acts, at least, were acts of suffering more than actions outright, but I cannot bear to tell you the whole story of mother and father.

That's what makes you fear me while I know. But no, no, how could you call me guilty? How, my nature? I was attacked.

I struck in self-defense. Why, even if I had known what I was doing, how could that make me guilty? But in fact, knowing nothing. No, I went.

The way I went. But the one who made me suffer, they knew full well. They wanted to destroy me. And they referencing the gods, I believe, that the gods knew what he would do, and they wanted to destroy him.

So, Edipus is saying here, it's not his fault that he did the things that he did. I think that's a complicated statement, because he did have intention. He did choose to marry. He did choose to kill now.

And, but, I mean, he was doing those things while also thinking he was avoiding the prophecy. Like, the reason he left was a corn this home town was because he didn't want to fall into the killing your dad and marrying your mom. Right. So he left who he thought were his parents.

And went off and did something and killed somebody and then married somebody else. So, I always have a lot more sympathy for Edipus in this way. It's portrayed here, whereas in Edipus Rex, where it says, where it's real clear that Edipus is like, you know, he brought this on himself. He didn't really.

I mean, at the end of the play, they're all wanting to willfully ignore the uncomfortable reality. Like, I think you'll cast it as even like, stop asking questions. We can go back to normal. Let's just not talk about this.

Like, what's your plan there, Lee? But, so I have a lot more sympathy for Edipus because like the Oracle kind of screwed him over. You know, they said, don't do that. Here's your future.

Oh crap. I don't want that future to happen. So I'm going to leave. And then it happens.

But by leaving, you bring. By leaving, it brings about. I mean, that's just, I love that, that is the trope in ancient Greece. It's like, you seek assurances about the future and want to know how your life is going to play out.

Here it is. And then you want to control that. And then you end up bringing the thing upon yourself that you didn't want happening. I mean, there's, it's like a morality tale, right?

Like, don't, don't seek outside the bounds of what human beings should know. Is it part of the necessity of tragedy that it's not entirely his fault? Or does it, does it need to be partially his fault for it to be tragedy? Typically your tragic hero will have some sort of flaw.

And it doesn't necessarily have to be a flaw of anything except excess of virtue. And Julius Caesar, Brutus's flaw is a couple of fold. One, he expects that all men will be noble. Even in the absence of, like in a power vacuum, no one will make a grab for that power.

He also underestimates his friend Anthony because Anthony has certain vices. And he thinks those vices are pervasive and prevent him from being a capable enemy. So he underestimates some people because of their vices, and he thinks all men are more noble than they are. And so he is too good.

And that is his downfall. So wow, that's a bummer for your vice to be an excess of virtue. Which is what makes it so tragic is that he is such a good man that he fell. Yeah, a lot of tragic heroes will have some sort of flaw.

But I think often it's excessive virtue. Yeah, it's hard to see where, it's hard to see Ed up as having an excess of virtue. I mean, maybe it's- It's not a tragedy unless he's good, right? If a broken man falls, that is just a morality tale.

Perfect bad dude gets what's coming to him. Yeah, that's not tragedy. That's not tragedy. So then the tragic element is that so much of his outside of his control.

That he thought he was doing right to win that. Oh, so yeah, he didn't think he was doing right. Not even, but he thought he was doing right. But it's not like he was, no, he thought he was like saving thieves and killing his fangs and getting what was due him, i.e., like this lady, the single queen lady.

Yeah, so I guess he thought he was fulfilling the role that he should be as a capable ruling individual. Yeah, and then- So there is some case to be made that it's outside of his control, that he intended well and went poorly, but not because he wanted it to go poorly. But yeah, he did not set out to murders dad, Mary's mom. Yep.

Okay, so we go from there, so he says that the actions he did were not his fault. He and Antigone and the people of Klonys keep talking. Eventually, his second daughter, Ismine, catches up to the two of them. Ismine has been searching out at Piss and Antigone for a while now.

So, Ismine has been wondering for years at this point, and Ismine had not been able to locate them, eventually does catch up to and talk to them. Ismine says this really sweet moment where he praises his daughters as being, well, the sweet part is that he's praising his daughters. The bummer part is that he talks about how bad his sons are. But yeah, Ismine says, again, these two daughters and two sons, the two sons, instead of seeking out their father to help him bring him back, they are currently fighting over the kingdom, currently fighting over thieves, while the two daughters are trying to help their father.

So Antigone, who has kind of forsaken the wealth that would have been available to her, she'd stayed in thieves in a position of authority. And then Ismine, who is also chasing after to try and tell a dad what's up. So, Ismine catches up at his face with the daughters. There's this whole story about how, what I just said, that Epis is two sons, Polly Nicies and Teocles, Teocles, are fighting for control of thieves.

So, originally, the power had been passed to Creon, and that's the thing that we saw happen at the end of the last play. But then the two sons are not actually okay with not being in control, and so they try and take it from Creon and it goes forward. I mean, they are fatherless. Yeah.

This is another, it just pops into my mind right now. I'd have to go through and really look at it. But there seems to be also the trope in a lot of classical literature, and not just ancient Greece. The idea that it is very hard for men to be virtuous on their own.

You often see these women, characters who are in dire straits, who are in rough places, who maybe don't have good role model figures in their life, and yet they still attain a certain kind of virtue. These two daughters, I think, is a great example of this. Whereas with the sons, it's very rare that you would have the son who grows up outside of the telemicus in the Odyssey. Everyone's worried about telemicus because he doesn't have his dad, because he doesn't have a good male authority figure, and he's gonna go spin off into violence, or into being a bad dude bro, like the suitors.

But there seems to be, and I think this is kind of maybe an interesting nature into men and women, is that women seem to be morally stronger when there's not, not because there's less, but the characters often still seem to retain good nurse, nurturing, and virtue, even when everything is crumbling around them. But often the men don't. They don't retain their goodness when things are crumbling around them. They become part of the crumble.

I'm thinking of a couple of Shakespeare plays, and a couple of examples of that in Shakespeare. I mean, yeah, yeah, yeah, um, and, um, yeah, anyway, I haven't really developed in my own mind, but the fact that like it's his daughters that come out and want to save and help him, whereas his sons are spinning off into power games fits. It would be a little stranger if like the sons were coming off and they wanted to help, and the daughters were home, scheming and playing power games. Like that seems less, um, I'm not sure that's so much commentary on differences in the sexes as it is contextual to their time period.

The power was available to the men, it was not available to the men, and so because the men are concerned with where the power is going and actually have the option to go for it, their morals are put in that danger, whereas the same is not true of the women. They don't have the temptation of power because they can never have it, and so they focus themselves on things that matter. You're right, like in King Lear, the women of the daughters can have, can rule, and it's not taboo for them to rule, and so they fall just into as many power games as men do. So anyway, I think that's a good point, Amber.

I think in King Lear is a helpful thing, but keep in mind as we keep going through this play. I found comparison a few times with those. Again, kind of a foil in that the two daughters here are both great, but we'll come to one of the sons who shows up later. So again, these two sons of Oedipids are fighting for control of thieves, and there has been a new prophecy.

They just keep popping up all over the place. Yeah, it's kind of a prophecy. I know, it's a bummer. Every time one comes up, he's Oedipids just has to go on.

Oh, this one is actually a bummer, because this prophecy says that wherever Oedipids dies and is buried, that person will have a blessing. That person will reward. Oh, no, that is such a bummer for him. So does everybody know about this?

Yeah, so Oedipids is just being hunted? Kind of, so Oedipids has asked some questions, do my two sons know about this? The answer is yes, and then one of those sons will then come to him later and say, please come with me, and it's like, what do you do in there, buddy? But the other person who knows about this is Creon.

So Creon also knows that whoever Oedipids dies near will have the blessing and will win a war. So Creon wants to desecrate his body after death so that neither of the two sons will get the blessing. Anyway, this is a fun play. Okay, so that happens.

It's pretty messed up, man. Well, why did you bring this play to us? It's famous and it matters and it's reasons for stuff. Okay, so he finds all this stuff out and he's kind of bummed about it and so that happens.

Well, then the townspeople of Clonus then bring up, hey, don't forget you sat on our holy rock so you need to make that right. So he's given this list of things to do to basically make amends for the desecration of the grove where he stepped into before. And I think this is an interesting moment. So he is not able to do this himself because he is a blind man and he's very old and frail.

And so he sends, it's me and one of his daughters to go and make these amends for him. But I think there's something more happening here where we talk about how the furies are important normally as a symbol of revenge. But this process is him making amends with that force of revenge. It's not him that he is not able to do it for himself that someone is stepping into make those amends for him.

But I think this is where the curse of edipace is broken, that someone loves him enough to just stand in his place. To do that for him. And that it's revenge that's made amends for. And again, the inciting incident of him needing this ceremonial process is something he didn't plan on, which is kind of the story of his whole life, that he never intended to do the things that he did, but he still did them.

And there was a price that needed to be paid for that, but that price had to be paid by one of his daughters. What is the price? What does she have to do? They walk through, it's like if it's water into bowls.

Like there's no, she doesn't have to like harm herself in any way, but essentially it's a, yeah, it's water into bowls. There's cotton you have to put around one of them. And then there's this whole weird thing about like, which ones get wine and which ones don't. So there's, I did not see any like, significance that jumped off the church in that part.

Oh, you guys have never done the water wine cotton bowls? It's like, it's like, it's like, it's like a couple of times because it's like, that doesn't make any sense. I do it once a month. Just to be sure.

It just gets all the weird BBGBs out of the system. Yeah, it's like a whole 30. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like a whole 30.

Yeah. So yeah, my theory is that this is the moment where edipace's problems end. Some bad things happen after this, but there was all very quickly. So we'll talk about that.

Anyway, so this is also a reason. So he has been hounded by the gods forever. And essentially this is also the moment where that we're him being hounded by the gods ends and then some problems with man still continue. So the bull ritual is where his problems with the gods ends?

Yes. It's a weird spot for that to, well, some more things happen. So he gets a blessing from the theories that happens later. And in a weird way, the prophecy about him dying lifts him up.

Like it now matters where he dies. And so he's no longer allowed to just wander around. And so there are people who want his attention. Can't you come over here?

Yeah, come over here. Yeah, which is also come over some way. So I'll get really suspicious of any dinner parties. Yeah.

Like, can you taste this chicken first? Very cheesy. So I see he goes off to go and accomplish this ritual for him. He has another moment where he defends himself against the people of Coronus.

He says that again, things were not his fault. So I'll just read these two because they're very short. But when to defend himself in regards to marrying his mom, the chorus is telling him, you've done these horrible things. Corus says, what you've done, Oedipus, no, not done.

Corus, what then? Oedipus received as a gift, a prize to break the heart. Oh, with to God, I never served my city, never won the prize, they handed up to me. So the prize being the wife, the wife.

Yeah, so again, he saves the city of Thebes. They rejoice and they give him a bribe so that the king will now have a queen. And then to defend his, the killing his father, I'll tell you, the man I murdered, he'd have murdered me. I am innocent, pure in the eyes of the law, blind, unknowing, I came to this.

I mean, this way you gotta date first, right? You gotta get to know each other. You can't just jump in a marriage. Yeah, it's an necessity.

You gotta try it out. Wait, what's your last name? That's a problem in Iceland. Iceland, they have an app that will tell you if you're related to them.

There's only three hundred thousand people in the entire island. But like, it's a small number of like families. Yeah, so. So there's an app you can punch your name into it and I think you have to put your parents' names into it because a lot of people have similar last names.

And the way that their last name goes down is like, it's your, so our family's originally from Iceland, so I know a little bit about this. So like, my dad's name is Terry, so my last name would be Terrison, because I'm the son of Terry. My name is Graham, my kid's last name would be Grammison. And then my, and then my sister would be Terry's daughter.

And that would be her last name. So you have these names that are not these, like, longstanding family names. So it gets a little confusing as you go back, but yes, they have an app so that you don't, if you're in a bar and you're like, someone you're like, hey, you're cute. You're not accidentally marrying your cousin.

That's probably a good thing. I think it's a good app. Yeah, it's a good app. To breeze through the rest of it.

So Edipis, again, is defending himself that he was a victim of fate and it wasn't his fault that he did the stuff he did, which again, it's complicated. And I think you can disagree with that. And that's fine. But I appreciate that this play is presenting kind of the opposite argument.

Sophocles is essentially arguing with himself one play later, which is kind of interesting. So then the King of Colonus appears that he sees this nobleman who agrees to help out Edipis. Oh, he's the King of Colonus? Yes.

Okay, doesn't he, isn't he feeb's later? Might be, anyway. There's an ending that's kind of ambiguous where I need to read and take any, because it's been a long time. But like, thesis is kind of getting friendly with the daughters, so I don't know if something happens there.

So thesis appears, and he's great, King of Colonus. He, Edipis offers to give thesis a gift, but he won't tell him what that gift is. Just in the context. It's a context.

Yeah, for now. So anyway, that happens later. But he says, hey, I'll give you a gift. And thesis is like, okay, great.

Nice to meet you. It's a very strange interaction because he doesn't know what's happening. Creon then appears. He comes to Colonus because he also has been searching for Edipis.

Creon wants Edipis to come with him, but Edipis refuses. Well, it turns out that Creon has stolen Ismene. Oh. So she had accomplished the kind of cleansing.

The bull, wine, cotton ritual. She went bowling. Yes, she went bowling. She had accomplished that.

And then on her way back got picked up by Creon. So Creon has Ismene and then says, hey, I'm going to take any of me. And then does take any of me. But the chorus is there the whole time.

The chorus that had promised to protect Edipis no matter what, like stands by, they are the old men of Colonus. And so they might not have been able to defend. Anyway, it's another funny scene where they're like, hey, stop it. But Creon just takes Antigone.

Then Creon attempts to take Edipis as well because he's an old dude who can't defend himself, but Theseus shows up in time to protect Edipis. Theseus sends his guard to go and retrieve Antigone. And Ismene, and in just a very short order, they come back. So they're kind of like, no, they resolve that one very quickly.

But Edipis defends himself again. I'm not going to read it. Again, talks about how it's not his fault. The one I just lied to you, I'm actually going to report it.

Because he says that he is a victim, but that Creon is actively a bad dude. At least anyone. Yeah, she was my mother. Yes, she bore me.

Oh, the horror. I knew nothing. She knew nothing. And once she bore me, then she bore my children.

Her disgrace. But at least I know one thing. You slander her and me of your own free will. But I made her my bride against my will.

I repeat this to the world against my will. No, I'll not be granted guilty, not in that marriage, not in the murder of my father. All this crimes, you keep on me relentlessly harrowing my heart. So that's an interesting distinction he draws between the two.

He's a victim. Creon's actually like actively choosing bad stuff. Because there hasn't been a prophecy about Creon being a jerk. OK, so Antigone has been returned.

Into town. So again, this is Edipis's older son, who I guess by rights kind of should be in control of thebes. Again, Creon should be in control. But the person, the son of Edipis, that has the best claim is probably Nisis.

He comes to town. And I feel like pre-majenitor gets all confused when it's like a brother's son. Yeah, seriously. I think that's what Edipis didn't have, like, right again.

Because he's the older brother. So he goes out and comes right back. I didn't think about that. You're totally right.

So the father has left. And right falls to the son. It's me. Who's the same guy?

This player is messed up in a lot of ways. So he comes to town. Edipis does not want to talk to his son, because he says that his son stood by while he was being kicked out of the city. Well, if this were the continuation of Edipis the king, that wouldn't be true, because he was like seven years old.

Like, he didn't stand by. But again, because we've retconned and changed the details. Probably Nisis was older. What did you keep using that word?

What does that word? Oh, yeah, it's retcon is when in a, so. Retroactive conceit, is that what it stands for? I don't know.

It's like a comic book term, which probably doesn't help for a. Go back and change canon. That piece of new information that imposes a different interpretation on previously described events. So if you're watching a TV show in a future episode, reinterprets something that happened earlier.

So you wouldn't, there's no way you would have known that, watching the TV show through the first time, but a later one tells you how you should have seen that, or changes the detail, something like that. So they changed details in a later version of it. But I mean, these myths don't have only one version of them. We talked about last time that there's a Homeric version also.

Retroactive continuity. Continuity, here we go. Esquis has a play that fits in this, I think, his is seven against leaves. So Planis just comes in his begging for Edipis to come with him, because Planis has been kicked out by his younger brother.

He wants to attack the city and take it back over, but he wants the blessing of his father, because he thinks otherwise he will die in lose. So Edipis rejects that offer, and says he won't come with him. And he then implores his son to die. It's a bummer of a scene where he talks about his son being unfaithful, and where the son could have helped him before and did nothing, now wants something from his father.

And so he refuses it. He refuses to offer his help. The only note I wrote on here is, Planis is his request, it goes poorly, which is accurate. Then after that, Planis is leaves to attack thebes, to try and take it back over.

And taking his sister tries to talk him out of it, but Planis says that he won't be talked out of it, and that he will, he thinks he's going to his death, and he willingly goes toward it, because he views this as fate, even though no prophecy has been thrown out. So the line starts, and taking it, so my brother, your heart is set on this, returning to Thebes to fight. Planis says, yes, don't hold me back. The road is waiting.

I must travel down that road, doomed by fate, and the curses of my father, all his swarming theories. But the two of you, God bless you on your way. If you carry out my wishes once I'm dead, you cannot help me anymore in life. Now let me go.

And then he leaves after that. It's very sad. Okay, so Planis then leaves, then the weather changes, and thunder starts up. If you remember from the first quote of this play, he said that that was a piece of what Apollo, or the Oracle had prophesied, that thunder would accompany his death.

So that thunder then begins, then Edith has talked more about how his death will give victory to a defending army at that location. So at Colonis, he is saying there will be a fight, and Colonis will be a smaller army, but they will win against Thebes. There's a part earlier where Thesebes is like, you know, thanks for the offer, but like I'm analyzed with Thebes, like why would I need that? And maybe I'll read the last part again, maybe because it's very good.

So this, now the thunder's beginning, Edith has realized that this is the end of his life. He is suddenly reinvigorated, and is able to stand up on his own. It's like he is reverted back to his character at the beginning of Edith's The King. Edith's The King, he walks out in strength.

He has the authority of his position. He is looked up to by his people. He has returned to that state briefly. He then leads Thebes and his daughters to the spot that I just talked about, where there will one day be a fight at Colonis.

He leads them to that place, and then he sends everyone away except for Theseus, so that only Theseus knows where this place is, and then the sons of Theseus will be told this place, but it's a secret location where future kings of Colonis will lead in coming armies too. So Theseus gets the blessing. He gets the blessing. He accepted Edith's into Colonis even knowing who Edith was.

I'm pretty sure he marries one of the daughters. This does sound pretty familiar. If so, we'll talk about it in the next one, which isn't taking any. So everything is happening off stage.

We don't actually see the death of Edith's, first off because it's off stage, but even the characters don't, except for Theseus, maybe. It's described as, so Theseus and Edith's walk off. There's a loud noise. Everyone turns, Theseus has his eyes covered, and Edith's is just gone.

So no one sees where his death is. No one sees where that secret location is. I'm not saying it's aliens, but it's not aliens. And they hear the gods speaking also, so it could be a situation where he's been actually taken.

So while a sudden with gods doing weird apotheosis on Edith's, Edith's, when Edith's, but did sort of have this terrible, terrible life. Yeah, so in re-matching the story as him being a victim, it's no longer his fault that those things happened. They were forced upon him. He was a victim of that fate.

So I think that's one piece of it, that there's no punishment to be meted out because he was essentially a plaything of the gods that they wanted him to be destroyed, and so he was destroyed. And then also, I think it matters, y'all that scene where there's like a reconciliation with the theories, it's like six pages. Like it goes on and on and on about what needs to happen for him sitting on a bad rock to be reconciled. So there is something significant happening in that moment also that I think he is set right with revenge, he is set right with the theories.

So it's not just a rock, it's probably this whole broken relationship between Edith's and the gods and needing to set that right again. Has been reconciled. And then when it's reconciled, because Edith's sort of like, rid of the rest of his life, middle fingers in the air, it would be a very different kind of ending, but maybe this is the gods way of saying like, all right, you're real rough go. Now we're gonna turn your life into some kind of future blessing for others.

Theseus. Which then gets to be how he's remembered, which is kind of cool. They don't turn him into a bird or anything like that. No, they got some time to do that.

They do that, yeah. You're sure you're a bird or you're not your bird. The metamorphosis. All kinds of people turn in all kinds of stuff.

All that happens off stage, these two gets that blessing and antagonist mean come back and they ask for the blessings to return to Thebes and Theseus allows it and that battle that they're going off to is covered in seven against Thebes, which I believe is S-Gless that wrote that one. So it's not a Sophocles play, or at least not one that we have because most of his plays are, they've not made it to us. And then that's the end of the play. So he gets his reconciliation, he gets his honorable death and he gets to die as a blessing to others, not as a curse.

So what human, this is humanities it is meant for us to think about what we are in our human lives. Like when you read this, Thomas, what were the things that you were thinking about in terms of like our shared humanity? Were you thinking about, I don't know, what were you reflective on as you were reading this thing? And I don't have a totally cogent answer on this, but Sophocles is writing this in his dying days.

And it is his reflections on death. A man who has made horrible mistakes. No one would have any questions about that. But wants to make those right before he dies, before his death.

So I think, as with all the philosophy, it is a play about death, about dying well, that we see the younger Oedipus, the king in the previous play, fighting against his fate, fighting against his fate, fighting against destiny. But by this point, he has come to accept it and understand that these things have happened and I did them, but he's no longer raging as he was in the previous play. So coming to terms with failure, coming to terms with mistakes and then receiving a blessing for doing that. Yeah, so it's a play about dying.

And sort of coming to terms with it and coming to terms with failure. The softening of a man. Yeah, sure. But yeah, that's totally what it is.

But in being softened, like to be human and to have emotions, he's then ennobled again. And that's his final moment. I'm not saying softening is a negative thing. I've known men that during their young years were harsh and cruel and combative.

And then as they grow, they realized that was folly and they grow soft towards those around them. And it ends up being positive. I don't know if this is, what's the art that you choose? It has to be, what's the term for it?