The marketing movement by Refine Labs. Hey guys, I'm Devin Rose. I'm a senior graphic designer here at Refine Labs. My name is Maria Finelli.
I'm also a senior graphic designer at Refine Labs. And I am Courtney Fermette. And I am a lead designer here at Refine Labs. And today we're not going to talk about design.
We're going to talk about strategy. Absolutely. What if? We're like, let's talk about strategy.
Let's talk about something we know nothing about. You got me a little nervous there. We're not going to do what exactly we do every single day. OK.
Yeah. So let's just dive into it. Cool. So today we're going to talk about empathy and the role it plays in B2B design and how similar B2C design is to B2B design.
So I think a lot of us have come from backgrounds where we've been in B2C design and B2B design. And I feel like there is a huge connection between the two, just with driving that sort of emotional connection, how important it is to find that in B2B design as well as B2C. Would you guys agree? Yeah.
For sure. I think a lot of times that would be to be a lot of misconception that we see with clients and just the whole attitude is that it needs to be more serious. And it needs to convey this almost corporate-type tone. And we kind of forget that there is another person on the other, even though you're selling to businesses, there's still another person on the other end of it.
Whereas B2C, the agency I worked out before Refine was completely B2C. It was paid social B2C. And the tactics that were used design-wise were wildly different. I mean, you guys can attest to how designed our ads are, how much time you spend mapping all those out.
Whereas half of my B2C design was just finding user-generated content and finding iPhone photos that people took of products and just posting that as ads. And that's the ad. It's just some iPhone photo of a protein donut or iPhone photo of whatever the client was. And just the attitudes are really, really different.
Before I left B2C, it was almost anti-design. Don't design as much as you traditionally would have. Whereas B2B is still very much very designed. Yes.
I feel like with the B2C, you see more stories being told. And I feel like that is sometimes a missed opportunity in the B2B. Kind of similar to what you said. I feel like they played a little bit safe and more corporate versus a B2C.
But I definitely think that I'm sure you all agree that the storytelling and the visuals and the B2C are definitely very strong and definitely capture everyone's attention. Yeah, that's actually a really good point. I feel like there is a huge missed opportunity because I think there's so much success when you use B2B design similarly to B2C. When you're applying the same principles, I feel like you tell a successful brand story.
And there's just more of an emotional appeal. You get attention a lot quicker. Because, yeah, like you said, Devin, at the end of the day, these are people scrolling through our carousels. These are people looking at these ads.
And I know that buyers aren't the same as users, but I feel like these buyers are the closest to our users. And we should still be thinking of our users in a similar way. You know what I mean? Do any of you kind of come across whenever a client is talking to you?
And this involves copywriting, too. It's very much hand in hand, where a client for their ads basically wants to explain their entire software within a 1080 by 1080 square and having to try to navigate that of like, no, there's no way we can encapsulate all of your software, all of the uses, all that within that small of a space. When it's B2C and you're selling underwear, everyone knows what underwear is. You can show a picture of someone in underwear, and that'll sell it.
But whenever you're trying to sell a software that's has this whole robust engine of all these things you can do, and a client's like, yeah, I want the entire software to be laid out in this 1080 by 1080 ad. And how do you navigate that? I was going to say, I think that's actually a really good point. And I think that's why one of the things I love about Refine Labs is because we get to take different approaches.
They say, this is our software. We want to explain all that. And we get to break that down and explain it in different avenues and see what resonates best with audience, which I think is great. And like I said, that's kind of how we've done it in the past, just break it down step by step, different avenues, see what works best, what doesn't, and let the numbers do the, you know, give you the clear direction.
So. Yeah, totally. I mean, testing is huge with us, right? I mean, I also feel like the level of distilling that information is really specific to what we do, too, because yeah, in B2C, you can definitely talk a little bit more conversationally for the most part.
But I think with B2B, a good distinction is also, we have to walk that fine line. I don't think we should be adopting a fully corporate, sterile tone, but I think we can be a little bit more hyper-specific with industry terms, because these people know what we're talking about. We don't have to dumb it down quite as much, which is kind of interesting. But I don't think it should be the other end either, where it's like this like cold and like very robotic voice.
So, which is a common misconception for sure. Yeah, I feel like sometimes I see with clients, they either, there's this misconception where they either expect their user to know absolutely nothing or they expect their user to automatically get it, where, you know, there've been some clients where it's just like, okay, this ad, my ad copy needs to say that this software does A, B and C and D, and that is the ad copy. It's very much is like a definition, essentially. And that does not make for any sort of compelling ad copy, any sort of a compelling, accompanying visual.
So I think like there needs to be this happy medium, because you know, if we were as designers, like we've all known like Adobe, we know Sketch, we know Figma. So if someone was, you know, marketing to us, like a new design program, there's still has, we don't have to go all the way back from the beginning of like, this is, this program helps you design through the magic wand tool. And like all the, like you don't need that because we already know, you kind of need to be very specific of like what it does differently. It's like, I know Figma, I know Sketch, and I know Photoshop, what does your program do differently?
Type of a thing. So it's like, kind of trusting your user that they're gonna know your industry, but really making yourself set up as yourself apart by those differentiating like tactics and then honing in on that with that design. I know I totally agree with you. And you brought me back there with the magic wand tool.
Also to play on that, also I think it's good to target the pain points, what is, you know, what the customer has, you know, their struggles and really honing on that too. I think that's another avenue that we frequently go down that is very successful along with what you just mentioned. Yeah, for designer, you're like, after effects keeps crashing, here, this one doesn't, you know? Yeah, that's, I mean, that's so important too.
I feel like that assumed level of knowledge is like that can be there. Like these people in the B2B space, like they know, like a little bit about like dental labs or like, you know, tech solutions. Like they already know a little bit of what we're talking about, but like the value is this going to help them be like less frustrated in their day-to-day lives. Like that's really what we wanna highlight.
So like, that's a really good point. So one thing with B2C though, that's really interesting, it went like a differentiating thing about like designing for that is again, just like the simplicity makes it so much easier to have that story. Cause again, like if you're selling Ben sheets, like everyone knows what that is. So you can make this whole story, it's harder to make a story upon something so like a lot more complex such as like the B2B space, specifically the SaaS space in which we live in.
But how do we make a story, a simple digestible story about something that is so robust. And I think Gordon and you can imagine it earlier, just breaking everything down. It's like these little bite-size information. A lot of times, you know, we'll see these like this copy come in that the client wants.
And it's just like a Russian novels worth of copy. And they're like, put this on a 1080 image and make it look good. And I'm like, the whole square is just gonna be text. And that's all it's gonna be.
So I'm playing on that a little bit too. Like that's, you know, why I really like our process and what we do, like our whole goal is to just get things running. So even if you don't know if you wanna explore customer pain points or if you wanna promote like what, you know, the values are, you can always just start from scratch and do brand awareness. Like simple brand awareness, do it well, do it great, and go from there.
So you can just get that out, set the foundation. And like piece by piece, break it down to different avenues and go from there. I think that that's always a great route too. And we have some really creative ads that are all done that are just simple brand awareness that have been super effective.
Yeah, I feel like that's a really like interesting point too because I feel like in this space, we have to do that a lot more. Because at least from what I've seen, like in B2C, there's I think a little bit of a stronger sense of brand. And when you enter B2B2B, it's a little bit looser because the companies are a little more complex, like their priorities are elsewhere, which makes sense. But there is like less of that consistency overall.
So like doing brand awareness for around is definitely like a lot more helpful than like diving right in and trying to like pinpoint what you want from the start versus like taking a good lay of the land first. So. Yes. And to that point of like it's, you know, B2C stuff, there's you can think of so many, if I asked you both of you guys, like what are some amazing B2C brands that like everything they produce looks so amazing.
Like we could easily list all like 10, 20, how many, like we're bombarded with it every day on Instagram. We as designers take notice of things that are designed really well that like make us like, ooh, maybe I should do something like that for my ads that I'm creating like we could easily name that. But then especially when I was interviewing for Refine Labs and I had to make like an ad set for my second interview, I was just thinking to myself like, what is a software brand that like has great branding? Like how many can you actually think of like, I think like Monday and Slack have really good branding, but like what are some other software companies that you're like, oh, their branding is amazing.
Like there's not. No, I totally agree with you. I had a similar situation as well when I was interviewing doing my tests and there aren't many out there. There is one that I think sales forces a little very successful in their storytelling and their characters that they put in place.
But other than that, like I had the same issue. I really couldn't find too many brands that were successful. Yeah, it's tough. I think it's definitely harder to find in a B2B space because of that.
Like just because their focus isn't fully on that, the way that B2C can like really invest in it a lot more and just like dedicate a whole team to it. But I feel like it also gives us a little bit more freedom because there isn't as much in place coming in. And that way we can also just come in with more ideas and there's more flexibility with that. So I mean, I think it works like for us and against us in certain ways, depending on how like the client handles it.
But it's definitely, it could definitely work in our favor, you know, when it's like, when the cards are in the right place, for sure. For sure. And I know we talked a little bit about how, you know, copy can sometimes, you don't want it to be too sterile, but maybe not too conversational. But whenever I see certain SaaS companies or B2B companies that make it like real, like their copy is like really punchy, I believe our associate creative director he posted in one of our inspiration channels about how, I forgot what software it was, but they made the copies sound like a seeking arrangements type situation, like a misconnections, Craigslist type thing, where it was like, this software is looking for like blah, blah, blah, like seeking blah, blah, blah, blah, user.
And it's just a fun way to pinpoint your business. I feel like, and I've definitely had those feedback from clients where they're like, oh, we needed to be more serious. We needed to be more serious, which series always equates to more corporate, like, and which equates to like honestly a lack of personality, where it's like, you can still have your business taken seriously and still be really funky with your design, you're really funky with your, you know, with your copy. And I feel like sometimes in the B2B space, like companies are really scared to go in that direction because a lot of people don't go in that direction.
And then that's kind of my argument for them. It's like a lot of people don't go in this direction, which is exactly why you should, because it will stand out. Your competitors aren't doing this. Your competitors adds, like, they're from the 1990s.
Like, you can really stand out if you allow us to let you. Yes, to play off that. I'm glad you mentioned that. So I know we have a client that we're working with, and I believe they said something along the lines.
If it doesn't make you comfortable, then if it makes you uncomfortable, then it's good. Like, you shouldn't be putting it out there if you're not uncomfortable about the creative and the messaging. So what you put out there, what is more punchy and creative. If you dial it back and look back, you leave that's what performs better too.
And you're also leaving a lasting impression on people's minds. And, you know, it just, it overall, like, is better. For sure. I think any impression is better than, like, just someone's scrolling past.
It was funny in one of the channels for one of my clients. I, we have one of our clients. It's like an ad testing client. And so their copy was like, create your best ads ever.
And, like, the imagery, I convinced the client. I was like, let's do this really funky, like, rock and roll looking imagery, because, like, we're making a bold clam like that. So we need to have the design. You really bold to them.
So we posted it, and it went live. And someone commented on that ad, and Eric, or a DDG, post it, send it to me, and it says, and yet this is the worst ad I've ever seen. And I'm like, like, I laughed so hard. I was like, I'm going to frame this.
This is amazing, because so many times you just scroll past ads. Like, someone, I don't care that you don't like it. He didn't like it enough to comment on it. So even if they don't like it, like, that ad did its job, because it caught someone's attention.
And then it's like, that's all you can hope for. Like, someone not liking it is better than completely indifferent, because if someone's indifferent, then you're just wasting your ad spend. Yeah. Oh my god, absolutely.
And I also love that for you. Like, I think that's so great, because we're literally screaming. Yes, we hate this ad. Yes.
Because I feel like there's this number, there's a high number that I definitely don't want to know. But there's some number in the statistic where it's like, this is how many ads we see a day, or how many exposures to, like, logos that we see a day. And like, it's a lot. It's very high.
And I feel like so much of it is white noise. Like, it goes, we just automatically tune it out at this point. You're training so much. And especially us as designers, we're seeing so much more of it in our inspiration channels and just like in research and discovery.
So for someone to like take time and deliberately talk about it, that's that in a conversation. He was so impressed by that ad. He felt the need to comment on it. And I was like, this is beautiful.
This is like a crowning achievement in my career. But yeah, and I think just like having that, you know, any sort of emotional reaction is it's good for whatever company you're working for. But if you kind of play it safe, like you're honestly just wasting your ad dollars. Because again, as we talked about at the beginning, there's another person on the end of it.
And no matter how you think your brand should be displayed or what you think it should be, if it's just not getting anyone's attention, then you're wasting money. Yes. Totally. And at the end of the day, we're also like, this is data-driven design practice.
So like, even if it doesn't work for whatever reason, we're at least seeing that. We're knowing what doesn't work so we can find out what does. But if we don't try anything, then we don't know what doesn't work or what does work. And then if your client is stuck on trying the same thing over and over again, then it becomes like, again, we're not testing.
We're just kind of throwing money at the same thing over and over and over again. And you're asking yourself, why are my impressions like this? Why is my click-through rate like this? Because someone's seen the ad for the past five months.
I mean, we're running different iterations on the exact same ad. They're getting fatigued or they're just scrolling past it now. You need to be willing to break out and really go after it gets someone's attention. Because one thing I talked about with a client was like, look, this ad doesn't have to explain every single thing your product does.
The post copy is there to support the landing page. Someone goes on is there to support all of that works together to really inform what could be your end user. But that ad that like 1080 by 1080 swear is to stop someone's attention. And that is like, first and foremost, the ultimate objective.
It's not to explain every single thing about your software. It's not to list every single pain point you might have and how this can remedy that. No, it's just to stop you. Literally stop you on your tracks.
And that if someone, if a designer and a copywriter working together can stop people's scroll beyond that, they've done their job. I totally agree with you. I think that the as far as the creative, the simple looking, it's just what you put in that square, which makes them stop. Like if you're on the feed and you saw it stop on it, on a white background, you would stop.
And you would want to see more. So I totally agree with you. I think it's all about what you put in that 1080 by 1080 that really drives it. And it's what matters because they're going to click on it.
They're going to land where they need to know and get the information that they need to know. So. Yeah. And I feel like that in itself is even sort of a hurdle that we have to get around because these people, usually, this is like executive personnel, these higher roles.
They're not typically getting the full brand experience. And that's when we have to come in and just sort of illustrate that. Like it's not just this ad. It's the post copy.
It's everything you're seeing with the ad. But a lot of these people are usually not on that side. So we kind of have to fill in those lengths and help illustrate that brand experience to the full. So yeah, even if you're dealing with VP of marketing, you still kind of have to parcel that information out.
Because yes, they may know marketing. They may know all of those CROs, CTR, all those acronyms that you have to learn whenever you're in digital marketing. They may know all about that. But then you speak design with them or to be copy with them.
And you kind of have to step it out step by step and kind of explain where your decisions are coming from, why you're designing to do this. Even in the B2C space where I talked about how there's this whole trend of the most undesigned looking ads. I remember Maria, you brought it up to the group. There was this ad that was for a lobster sandwich.
They got a million dollars or something behind it. Do you remember, are you showing it? And even then, it was meant to look undesigned. But there was so much thought that went into it.
She apparently she explained to you guys how she purposely didn't wear makeup or she did this video like showing the, making this ad of advertising this lobster sandwich. And all the thought that went into making it look undesigned, making it look unplanned, making it look spontaneously. It was every section of it was completely planned. It was completely thought out.
It just looked like it wasn't. But that was completely by design. Oh yeah, 100%. There was so much thought and so much direction.
And just general art direction that went into that to make it look organic. But yeah, definitely not organic. Not even organic. Even the organic seeming things, nothing is organic.
It's all planned by that way, by design. And it's just about trying to empathize with the end user and saying what would they want to see? And what have they been tired of seeing? With the B2C space, it's super designed stuff.
We're so trained to tune our ads. So now the trend is to make it look like an ad, make it look like a post, like a regular post. So it's about really tapping into people and seeing what they're tired of seeing and what they haven't seen before, or at least what they haven't seen before in that space. Like these are just layers upon layers of white noise of advertising.
And I think the companies, especially in B2B, that like punch with those layers the best and the fiercest, those are the ones that are gonna see a lot more success in their data. And one thing too about this, the ads that look less designed, show you guys can all agree with me that simple is very hard to do. And I feel like when people see simple ads sometimes, they think that they're quick and easy. But those are really the ones that like you guys said have the most thought and everything is executed and laid out a certain way and designed a certain way.
So I think that's something to note too about the simple ads that they also have that idea that they're easy and quick, but they're really not. Very challenging to do sometimes. There are so many design books out there that talk about how like a lot of people complete good design with complexity. And a design does not need to be complex at all.
A design does not need to have a ton of elements at all to be a good design. It could be so simple. It could be just like words against a certain color background. And that's it.
You know, we look at like street signs and stuff like that. Like everyone, someone thought that through someone thought through like how to make the shape of a stop sign and the typography of a stop sign and the color of a stop sign and the border around the stop sign in order to convey the message the best. It's so simple, but there's so much thought that went into it. Yes, I agree.
And I'm glad you touched on that. So the stop sign like using colors is another thing too that you know, they're all thought out. Like we use red to get you to stop. We use blue for happy, warm.
We use a darker color for kind of a more serious, use white for like light and airy, warm feeling. I think that's something to note too that everything is completely thought out. One thing I love to do specifically in religion to color is any client that I have that I'm working on, if they have yellow in their brand guidelines, I will make so many ad sets yellow. And my reasoning behind it is that number one, most brand colors like the pivotal brand color or nine times out of 10, it's a blue or green.
For every company out there, it's like blue or green, especially in the V2B to see base. You or in a maybe some red, but like the other colors, if you have a brand color that's outside of that, I'm gonna use it, but especially the yellow, because you're gonna be in platform on Facebook or gonna be in platform on LinkedIn, which the primary color is blue. So it's this beautiful complimentary like play off of each other. So I always try to like convince my client that they have yellow in my brand guidelines to let me do several ads sets in yellow.
Cause I'm like, trust me, it's gonna stand out and it's gonna stand out from your competitors. That's so interesting. Cause I actually had a client where we did the same thing. Yellow was in their palette.
And I didn't add that that had yellow as a background. And it was really more of a testing approach like just to see how it performed and it ended up being the top performer. And I was actually really surprised. But like hearing it put that way, that makes a lot of sense.
Of course, the contrast would make it stand out a lot more than other ads that they're seeing. So that's really, and that's not to say like every company should be using yellow, but like no. Not make it make sense. It's just something to like stand out against the rest of the thousands of ads that people are seeing really.
And not to say again, and then, you know, not every ad set should be yellow. And just because your brand colors are blue, that doesn't mean you can't stand out in blue either. It's just taking in every little bit of information you can to try to make yourself stand out. Because that's just really the bottom line of what it is, is how can you stop that scroll?
How can you stand out? And anything you can do, whether it's color theory, whether it's your messaging, whether it's interesting funky, surprising graphics, whether it's like using memes in your design, anything, to get that someone to stop. Like that gets the job done. Yeah.
As long as you're strengthening the brand, you're generating demand for it at the end of the day. So, and that's what we're here to do. Yeah. Well, thanks so much for listening to us, you guys.
And if you haven't already, please rate us, subscribe to us. And we have another podcast that we find called The State of Demand Gen that's hosted by our CEO. So be sure to give that to listen to if you haven't already. Yeah.
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