What has changed since becoming a mother? I stopped getting Botox. Okay. Is that the big thing?
Stop smoking me. Stop getting Botox. Okay. You know, a lot of things.
I start with this sort of more facetious ones, but I'm obviously off-work control, you know, after being cut off. And I can't believe how much clearer I am, less emotional I am, less judgmental I am, less attracted to gay men I am. And then I was like, okay, what else am I putting in my body? You know, because as soon as you have a baby in utero, you care about your own health, you know, and then I'm like, I'm not gonna drink tap water anymore.
Instead of spending money on stupid shoes that are gonna be blisters, where I spend it on glass, bottle water, whatever, you know. And in trying to care for my son and protect him from microplastics and chemicals and stuff, I accidentally took care of myself and cannot believe how much better I felt. And I spent so much time now thinking of like when I see my girlfriend's acting crazy or women acting crazy, I'm like, maybe I've ever heard just we're too much deodorant. Maybe we need to get rose me out and off tap water.
You know, like what are all the chemicals? And I know this is very nice. Like I straighten out of the room and talk about it. There's people that actually know what they're talking about.
But in my own, you know, research on myself, I'm like, I cannot believe how many chemicals I was putting in my body before and how much better I feel now that I'm not. The Botox thing was more of, you know, you can't get Botox when you're pregnant. And once I was pregnant, I couldn't believe how much better I was all of a sudden communicating. And I was like, oh, this must just be because I'm compassionate now and it's hormonal.
And like I'm connecting with people more, but we're designed to read micro expressions. And I look at all my past toxic relationships where we had like trouble communicating or, you know, I expected the person to read my mind or just like, know what I meant on my face or something. And they... I mean, well, you got a stone face.
You know, I'm just like, like, no, what do you mean? Everything's fine. Like, I just, and now like women are, and men, I think, are having a harder time communicating than ever. And we're just adding more and more things to make it more and more difficult.
Like Botox literally stops you from having facial expression. Correct. Correct. And so I was like, let me just stop.
Because also, look, I've lazed in my entire body, my 20s, I have no pubes, I have no nothing. Like, if I don't have any wrinkles either, I'm just gonna be attracting pedophiles. So what I just... Like, also what kind of person wants to be with a woman with no pubes and no wrinkles?
Like, that's, I think that's the nightland's close. But like, you know, I don't know. The more I think about this, the more I'm like, I'm just deciding to become the most authentic person, even if it's someone that I'm not 100% proud of all the time. So I don't attract the wrong person.
I think this is something that I realized is that we put on this thing to try to attract as many people as we can, but we might attract the wrong person. Like, the guy that wants a woman with no wrinkles, like, do I even want to be with that guy? You know, I stopped. I mean, I'm on your show, so I had to wear a little makeup.
I would don't want the comment section to be too brutal. But I stopped wearing so much makeup, which I always thought, like, oh my God, this is gonna make a man attracted to me. But it's gonna maybe make the wrong man attracted to me. So a lot of that.
I also have this weird obsession with how into me men were when I was pregnant. It made me like love men in this weird way. I just saw a different side of men when I was pregnant. And I think this thing of, you know, men don't want, you know, don't have like caretaking and whatever it is, like whatever bullshit I got from my mom programming me because I came from a lot of bad divorce.
And I was fed this narrative that my dad was this monster and this like, you know, they were both, you know, had a lot of work to do. But I just, and I had a son, you know, and once you see a little baby boy and you like, they start out so innocent, you're like, like, how do we get from this, you know, to such a toxic place? And I'm fascinated. It feels like even when we were speaking last time, you were kind of in the middle of softening up a lot.
And maybe this is part of a big arc. You said last time, you know, you'd spent two decades really grinding. I needed to kind of prove to myself and then realize that all of the proof that I gave to myself was for everybody else. And I actually hadn't changed anything internally and blah, blah, blah, blah.
Blah, blah, blah. I mean, I mean, blah, blah, blah. It is a pretty good impression on me, actually. It's literally the sound of you fucking thing, isn't it?
Blah, blah, blah. Blah, blah, blah. It's like the teacher from Charlie Brown. Yes.
Correct. That's correct. Um, so it seems like a big softening for you. But I think that, you know, we're, and we were kind of texting about this a little bit.
Like, you know, as soon as I was, you know, conscious, I remember being like, I'm at war. I come from, you know, alcohol, a com, I saw fighting. I saw men and women fighting from the jump. And then I was, you know, I come from the generation where you walk home from school when you're seven, you know, and I was taught, don't talk to strangers, you know, you're, we're at war, you know, and then I played sports and it was like, I'm beating, you know, I'm at war.
Great. A healthy type of way to channel that instinct. And then I go to one Philadelphia and it's like, you're walking off from school, you're at war, self-defense. You're just taught, like it's dangerous to go to your car.
It's dangerous to do anything. If you fight with men, you know, I had a situation, an assault situation with, you know, a man. And I shouldn't have been in the situation. That's on me.
I didn't know how to get out of relationships. No one tells you how to get out of relationships. All we learn about is how to get in them. And I didn't know how to get out.
And this was before I had done any recovery work around codependents. And I still erroneously thought, I don't want to hurt this person. So I'm not going to leave them. That's like almost sadistic.
I don't want to hurt them. So I'm going to waste their time. I don't want to hurt them. So I'm just going to pretend I still like them.
I mean, I just, I didn't know how to dismount. I was too afraid that I was going to break his heart. He'll be fine. He'll find someone else.
The narcissism of thinking that if you leave someone, you're going to decimate them is beyond. Or these days, I say a lot of men are like, I'm afraid to break up this person because I'm worried she's going to tweet about me. You know, that's a different fear. We'll get to that later if you want.
But I was just terrified because I was, you know, taught that breakups should be long and nasty and hard and just unnecessarily, you know, sadistic and masochistic, whatever. And then I come into this business and it's, I'm told like, you're a woman in a male dominated field. You have a fight tooth in the nail. Everyone's your enemy.
And I was like, all right, I'm at war with everyone. That was just kind of my default state. I was taught men were my enemy. And I think I was my own worst enemy, you know, so it took me a second to kind of just go like, I don't think anyone's trying to hurt me.
I think I'm looking for that because that's familiar and comfortable. I think there's almost also an element there too that the way that women compete is not in the same way that men do. So there's some really interesting studies around the amount of physical affection that women on the same basketball team give to each other versus men on opposite basketball team. Women on the same basketball team are less physically affectionate than men on opposite basketball teams.
Fascinating. So when you look at lots of the arenas in which men learn how to kind of formalize have conflict, have competition and then kind of do it within the bounds of a game of some kind, not that it's less serious, but that there is this ability to kind of turn it on and turn it off. I wonder whether when you went to a mostly male dominated space, like doing stand up and comedy and Hollywood and shit like that, whether you just don't have the same kind of learning that you would have done. Had you've been a guy that had had that genetic predisposition and then grown up playing a ton of sports, it's coalition warfare practiced within what you're just kicking a spherical object around or whatever.
Totally. Oh, that's very interesting. I mean, I was just talking to someone about this this morning is the thing that matters the most to me is class and grace and sportsmanship is one of those things. I play basketball where if you didn't look the person that just beat you in a championship in the eye and shake their hand and mean it, you were doing 50 suicides.
So I come from that. Like I come from maybe almost to a fault that I'm like, because I don't want anything. I don't deserve. I mean, that's just my kink personally.
We see a lot of people that just want what they want. They want to skip the line. They want something fast. I don't want anything I don't deserve.
You can create a bit of a chip on your shoulder with that as well. They'll run because once you've done it and you've come up through the ranks, you then want to kind of prove to everybody, well, I own this the hard way. I did this and look at all of these male comics. They fucking didn't want me here and I did it and blah blah blah.
And that also doesn't come off as particularly classy either. So there's all of these little snakes that you can sit down. Yeah, I think the older I get after having a kid, this is kind of crystallized is, you know, to me, the between, you know, whatever time anyone goes to bed, 9 to 10 at night, where I'm laying there on my pillow, can I live with myself? And am I corny?
And am I someone that I would make fun of or roll my eyes at and in my cringe, you know, when I'm in this, you know, 12-star program, Al Anon, ACA, Codependents, Anonomist, and you sit there and you do something called a 10 step every night and you go through your behavior and you kind of look at yourself as if you were yourself watching yourself, give yourself a little judgment of like, oh, do I own apology there? Or should I have said that? Was that necessary? Should I say what I mean when I say it mean?
That was a little caddy. Did I need attention in that moment? And yeah, I definitely shy away from any of that. I did it the hard way because everyone's already made up their mind about us.
That's also like a wild realization to have. And when you're trying to convince someone to see it a certain way, you just come off desperate and needy. And you have to know when you're cemented too. You have to know when you can like, chill a little bit and go away and not something that having a kid really helped me with as well.
There's an idea called Tilting at Windmills. An online stranger doesn't know you. All they have are a few vague impressions of you, too me get to form anything but a phantasm. So when they attack you, they're really just attacking their own imagination.
So there is no need to take it personally. We're kind of these like projection machines, you know? It's like who I am to you is an intersection of sort of what you saw today and your entire past and your experience. I'm so fascinated by the fact that I'm so different to pretty much everybody.
Hmm. You know? It's like a personality raw shock test. I know.
That person sees you as that. That person sees you as the other. 100%. So going back to kind of what changed from a role perspective, this sort of softening thing.
Obviously you've made lifestyle changes, but was there this, you know, existential personality, my position in the world has changed? I was learning about what's that idea? Like the obsession of self or something that you talked about? Well, yeah, the narcissism, you know, of what I do.
I just want to be a stand up comedian for a living. I want to make people laugh and then, you know, the business evolves and all of a sudden we're like, Hey, guys, hey, guys, and we're just me, me, me, all the time. And I realized like I was like, how is my self-esteem getting lower? I'm getting everything I want.
I'm paying my bills. I've achieved my goals. Like how is my self worth falling? Is this from the comment section?
It's I'm turns out, I'm just thinking about myself way too much. I actually like myself. I only think about myself like an hour a day, but when I think about myself 24 hours a day, that's my self as an employment. So now having a kid, it's such a joy to not have to think about myself so much.
I also, this is going to get me in trouble. Fine. That's my brand. I do believe it's okay to say women are caretakers by nature.
We're good at it. And I think that when we don't care, take children, I'm not saying every woman needs to have a child. I know plenty of women that I hope never have children. You guys pushing this narrative, women need to have kids.
You've seen them, right? Some. Some. You want all of them having kids?
Some. You and Alon and all these guys saying like have more children. I mean, I know a lot of women are like, can someone tie their tubes, please? I'm thinking.
Well, I mean, people sort of point to Kamala Harris and say like the sort of like childless cat lady thing. Right. I mean, do you want that screech as a fucking child? Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Do you want a kid being told they're a different ethnicity every day? That would be very confusing.
Okay. I grew up in Alcoholic Home. I don't wish that anymore. I'm not saying she's not a colleague.
I don't know, but those beaches are wild. And for me, I found myself mothering adults groups of people, even concepts. You know, I'm not attacking the left or right. It's more I see women that are identify as liberal, progressive, and they don't have kids.
And I wonder if that we need to save this minority group. We need to save Ukraine. We need to save Gaza. Sorry, child.
Kind of. Mm-hmm. That's really interesting. Because now that I've astonished, you know what?
I can just make this the best man I can. You know what I mean? This I can control. I'm not going to be able to clean up Gaza, Israel.
I'm not going to fix Hamas with a tweet or a march or what. But I can control this. And this might make a difference actually. I'd love to see the constitution of the people tweeting about stuff, supporting things, going out in protest.
I would love to see how many of them have got kids. And it's mother. I need to mother this group. I need to care to.
I need to protect this group. You know, I mean, that's like, you know, I think that whenever someone's protesting or whenever someone's like coming out, you know, a lot of times it looks like virtue signaling self-regstanding. Fine. But I'm like, is the root of this?
You want to mother something and take care of something? And it's like, you know, this group, you know, needs help and needs support. I need to be an ally. It's like, I think I kind of just needed to be a mom.
Has it changed your relationship to men, your understanding of males generally now that you've kind of got one on your side? Yes, of course. You know, look, the word feminism has gotten so ridiculous at this point, but I'm working on a bit about how it's impossible to be a feminist and a boy mom. Because it's like, I believe that women, you know, do have horrible things happen to them, but also they lie.
And but that's also about equality. It's like, you can't say I'm a feminist. Men and women should be equal. And say, OK, by that, women are just as destructive, just as conniving, just as, you know, brutal, just as, you know, so I think for me, I do spend a lot of time going like, this will be interesting.
Am I going to have to teach my son about consent? Like, what is this going to look like? And I very much less so see things about men versus women now. And it's just more good versus evil.
And I don't think it's men versus women anymore. I think it's good men and good women versus bad men and bad women. If that makes any sense, you know, but also just seeing sorry, I'm just coming in hot with this. I think that the wildest part was deciding whether or not to circumcise my son.
That's, you know, and I did defer to his dad on it because I just that felt like the right thing to do. As an English person, this is not something that we really have to deal with. So I think I mean, I could probably pull up the stats. I would guess somewhere in the region of single digit percent guys that aren't Jewish in the UK would be circumcised.
And I'm going to guess that it's maybe not far off the inverse. In the United States, it's automatic. It's automatic at the hospital. Like you have to actively say, I don't know.
The umbilical cord is fucking. Truly, that's it. I mean, it's just imagine. I'm going to end up with just one extra long pair of scissors.
Well, I did have to have that too. I was kind of circumcised during birth. That's a different conversation for another day. But I mean, if that was reversed, I would say would that be, you know, and you know, Rogan talks about it a lot.
And, you know, I won't play drives him here. But I mean, he really does think of it as mutilation. And I looked at all these studies, which again, look, whoever puts their circumcised baby in the study, I already have questions about this study. It's like, it's like, you know, you know, it's like, you know, when they're like, you know, women mature faster than men, I'm like, who needed to do this study?
Who was like, you guys, let's do a study about how young girls are more mature? Like, did Epstein fund this study? Let's be honest. You know, like, there's what's the new thing of how babies' taints are shrinking because of microplastics?
Right. Okay. I thought that I thought it was a study. Who was measuring taints?
I looked at one. I looked at one. So yeah, you call it taint. Between your.
Yeah, the taint. Yeah, I think it's ANoGenital gap is technically what it's referred to as. Well, the gooch in the UK. Much better word.
Gooch. Gooch is gross. Fucking. No, because it feels wet.
Yeah, well, it is. It's better describing the area that we're talking about. But yeah, I mean, that's that's not good. But Penis is getting bigger a little bit.
Are they? How do is that for microplastics? Uh, they're not sure. They're not sure.
So it's sperm time going down, testosterone going down, a no general distance decreasing. Penis is a little bit bigger. How do we know who's doing the study? How do we go again?
Am I wrong? Yeah. Well, they said, who's measuring Penis? Did anyone ask you to be in the study?
Who's doing the study? You are like the conspiracy bro of every psychology study that would be done. Think about study. I know, look, I respect studies and all, but I used to do studies when I was broke.
I used to sign up for studies. I had no money. You get $50. They'd be like, are you depressed?
Come to the study. I wasn't depressed, but now that I have to go do a study for cash, I guess I qualify. You want to be one. Totally.
But it is always going to be college kids. It's going to, you know, I just like to know who, you know, because a lot of medications, you know, amby and I think it was, didn't test on women. So the dosage was off. Like there's certain.
And that happened to Rose and Bob. That's one of the things. Yeah. There was a few things.
There's two things. Second, so you chose to decide to go. I chose to do it because, you know, there's an argument to say that the sun should look like their dad, you know, when they like change or take a shower or that kind of thing. That's an argument.
That wasn't the argument here. You know, I also was there and it was an acetized and I had a very specific search and do it. So there was really no pain because that's the other thing. It's like the trauma of the pain, associating that with the mind.
I was like, I don't want my kid to, you know, be a serial killer. Because as a mom of a son, every serial killer's behavior is blamed on the mom. It's like the mom didn't let him wear the panty hose, you know, or wear her shoes. So he wouldn't kill a bunch of women.
I'm just like, I just need to not turn my son into a serial killer. He sees his dad all the time. They have a great relationship. Like, I just need to figure out if I don't circumcise him and then he gets made fun of in the locker room and then kills a girl, like I need to just do the right thing.
And so yeah, so I decided to do it, but I was very micromanaging about it to make sure, you know, because to me, the circumcision, I mean, you know, look, when you talk about something like this, I was just like, is she anti-Semitic? Whatever. It's not about that. But when you do like a ceremony four days later, it's like, it's going to hurt a little bit more.
And then the baby sees all these people just clapping is there. They feel this horrible pain. I mean, it has to leave a mark in some capacity. But I am also going through the process of it the way that they put a baby down and strap them down and wait.
Like, I was like, no, no, I'm managing entire process to make sure it wasn't like super stressful. It's like me doing one of my podcasts. Guys, we just pan in a little bit more on that, please. I think we're actually a little bit off on the tilt.
We'll move on a little bit. I love watching you before the podcast do your thing because it is the way you do anything is the way you do everything, probably. And this is why you're so circumcise, your son. It's fucking, you should have brought me on.
Why do you bring me in? I could have got it done. You mean your crocs? I mean, you do dress like a yard.
That's true. That is very true. I like it. What would you do if you had a son, you know?
Yeah, I think. No, I don't think so. Look, I haven't done the research on this, but it seems like the genitals don't have that many moving parts going on. That nature probably designed most of them to be essential.
Yeah, I agree. So there's a few other things that are interesting. I've got a very close with a friend who was circumcised, muslim, and he wishes that he wasn't. And you know, he talks to me about lack of sensitivity and stuff like that as he's grown up.
And again, you know, you're fucking choice. And it's not like this is such an outlier problem. There's got to be 100 million men in the United States that are circumcised. It's a default.
I mean, we'd be the cycle breakers, you know? If I had another one, I don't know what I would do. You know, I was like a game time to say that's how you throw real work. That's circumcised.
Elder brother to circumcised. Younger brother. Ah, ah, ah. Hey.
People hold him in. Yeah, that's, I mean, that's research. That's good research because it's the same thing. That's dangerous.
Being fucking British with a foreskin in America is now like, how many women have never seen an uncircumcised? It's so much easier to give hand jobs though. Well, I mean, you'd have to tell me more about that. Well, it's easier when it's circumcised.
I mean, sorry, uncircumcised. It's easier because you have something to like, colon to. You got the X-Men. Yeah.
I hate your guy. You're the X-Men. But I was with a man that was uncircumcised and he had a lot of shame about it in America. Like, again, a lot of women are like, what is that?
What's happening? I mean, it is. It's a penis. It's a penis.
It's the way that it's supposed to look. But we don't really see that. It's the same way it's like when, you know, boys that are 18 now, probably see a girl for the first time with pubes. And I'm like, what's all that?
That didn't exist on porn. You know, I mean, you'd have to look for it. But I mean, I think if you saw a regular woman's body and you looked at porn, I'm sure that's kind of traumatic. I've been using my Atelet mattress for nearly three years now.
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Check out that's EIGHT sleep.com slash modern wisdom and modern wisdom. I'll check out. Tell you what I've been thinking about a bit recently. How much more women gossip about sex and intimate sort of sex stuff with their friends than guys do?
I think that women presume that guys are super open about, you know, and then I turned her over and I did this and she was like, Ah, that's good. That's good. And there is, I've never had, I mean, maybe when you first start having sex and you're like 19 or some shit and like everybody in your friend group is kind of just like, it's normal to do that thing. And oh, yeah, yeah, yeah, I do that too.
But you get to 22 or whatever is a guy and no one is talking about that. No one's asking their friend over a beer what him and his girlfriend or one night stand get up to in the bedroom. It is, it makes me, it makes my fucking toes curl to think about that. Because then you're just imagining your friend having sex.
Kind of. It seems it seems it's sort of like a bit of an invasion of privacy. You're basically asking to kind of imagine your mate's girlfriend doing that. It's a little bit crossing the boundary with him too.
Like you're asking this because you want to imagine me and what I'm doing. And then I know there's just something a bit sort of fucking no, like that's your area. Yeah. I don't think that's the same with girls.
I'm maybe an anomaly because a couple things for me, my biggest turn on a relationship is respecting the person. And if I can get turned on to such a shit turn on. Why? You want to be respected.
Okay. So if I say money while you respect me. If I say money, I'm disgusting. If I say a car, I'm disgusting.
If I say a good job, I'm disgusting. But if I say a perspective, I'm an idiot. And or a good side of shoulders? I don't know.
Well, I respect that. If you put time and energy into respecting yourself, I think. But I always think that whenever I talk to my guy, friends and girlfriends, if you're gossiping about your person with other people, you might not respect that person. I found that in the past, I'm like, yeah, is this normal?
He did this in the bedroom. I'm like, I don't respect him enough because I'm willing to share this. All right. It's an invasion of privacy that you're opening up because you don't actually care.
Yeah. Yeah. Or it's like, I don't respect this person. I'm not going to let everybody else have this thing in their head that he's a goofball or whatever.
You know, so I stop. If I found myself doing that, I would just end the relationship because I'm like, oh, that's the first indication. I mean, I'm gossiping about my person. I really think that no matter what.
I mean, I always tell my girlfriends, I don't want to hear about your guys porn addiction. I don't want to hear that it was texting with another girl because you're going to break up if you're already telling me that. Well, how many, just thinking about sort of the actual public, French showing of this, how many podcasts owned by Spotify bought by Spotify are girl talk with fucking Cindy and Lindsey. And all they do is talk about that one night stands and what happened, blah, blah, and this is the position that I like.
And if you've tried it to do this, I know of no, even the most de-gen, autism red pill, man as for your podcast, do not get to that. There was a brief period where there was like this odd campaign where going down down girls is gay was like a sort of movement that was being pushed by. Why is this like, so embarrassing? Yeah, exactly.
Beyond that. It's like sucking her a dick or something. Yeah, kind of. I honestly think that was it.
Now I trans girl maybe for sure. But beyond that, like literally that was the closest I've ever heard the sort of, you know, most unencumbered, total explicit, open door policy, guy podcast get to one them. There's a whole fucking sub-genre of them for chicks. So it's just, it's really interesting.
And it's also like, you know, I always try to go, how is this existed? Just look different, you know, like the way that I start checking my email. Every 10 minutes is I just visualized a mansion if 30 years ago, you watch someone walk to their mailbox, check if there was anything, and then walk back in the house and then 10 minutes later, check. Like it's this, we're doing the same thing, right?
Like how is it different? Like, I'm like, this is a crazy person. I mean, like, do I have any mail? Do I have any mail?
Like it's like, you know, I think that like, you know, is it equivalent to, you know, guys in their garage have a poster of a hot girl, you know, that kind of thing. I think men are more visual and women are more verbal. The guys have sports illustrated, swimsuit edition, and that's kind of how you, you know, share in gossiping about girls, but it's like just looking at hot girls or something. Whereas we don't have that really, it's sort of more like this guy called me, and they didn't text me back.
I'm like, fuck off, you know, and my bigger, you know, I think it's fine. It's where America free speech, whatever. I think the bigger thing is when it's motivated by revenge or motivated by wanting to be a victim in some way or, you know, that, I don't think embarrassing men or trying to humiliate men is a solution to any of their problems. And to me, just seems very self-destructive, you know, because what kind of, your whole thing is like, man or trash, but no great man is going to ever want to be with you if this is what you do.
You're not going to attract a king if you're active like this, you know. So it is what it is. I think that I try to just go, you know what? The world needs contrast and you wouldn't be you if they weren't them.
But I think the more interesting thing with talking about what goes on in the bedroom, I think there is value in sharing intel of like, I got it this. Is that weird? Is that normal? I think that's when people really share it.
It's like, guys going, my girl, just asking me to hit her. I don't want to do that. I don't want to hit her. That's different though.
What I'm talking about is the sort of this weird open door policy about he does this and I like it and he tries that and we're trying to do this thing. I don't know. Maybe it's just that all guys are still sort of sexually unenlightened and they're not prepared to speak to their friends about it. Or maybe they think that it's something it's like, I don't know.
There's just an ache about that kind of open door policy. And I think most girls think that most guys talk like that around their friends. I just want it to set a record. Right.
You know that I wonder if he's talking about how we have sex. You can imagine one of those memes and it's like, it's fucking Warhammer 40k. Or he's like planning his fucking end of your account or something. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
It's not guys talking about sex. I feel like they need it to be. I think that's, I really appreciate you saying that. All my friends are male comedians.
So this is probably not where I can weigh in the most. I've heard things like light bulb pussy, battery pussy. What's light bulb pussy? It's when a girl's vagina is tight and then it's like not as tight.
Oh. Inside. Oh. Oh, it's like that way.
It's going that way. Well, yeah, you know, like a light bulb. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but in that way. Yeah.
Okay. Yeah. So it looks like one on the outside. Oh, yeah.
Sorry. Like things like that. I've like heard this from this guy's talking. If it was the other way, if it was a light bulb that was upright, it would be like one of those things that you, you know, when you need to hook a painting onto a screw and you're like, well, dude, if it's too big at the top, you can just move it down to the bottom.
But that, no, yeah, like spacious roomy inside. One of those good New York apartments where you think there's no way that it's going to be able to fit. And you're like, oh, yeah, it's not bad. Vietnamese is strongly good living here.
I just think sex is so, just so like, I don't know, poor or whatever. It's just so everywhere. I mean, I'm more interested in talking about when you're in a relationship. Like, does your guy wash his jeans?
Mine. Things like that. Are you washing your jeans, Chris? No.
No. Never. Mate, does that. But that's what I mean.
There's some jeans that aren't supposed to be washed. Just supposed to put it in the freezer. What? Washing your jeans.
Who puts jeans in the freezer? What did it not do? Okay. There's certain raw denim that you're not.
You spent too much time around Bobby Lee. You've spent way too much time around Asians. It's been grand on a pair of fucking jeans. Very true.
I can tell. Exactly right. I can tell. These hipster fucking overpay Hollywood.
You know what? You're actually very right. If everybody came through to Austin, Texas and wore square-tailed boots and a fucking cowboy hat. I know this is going to get me in trouble.
Bring it. But I'm very fascinated now. And I don't think it's just having a kid. I think it's I've had a lot of relationships.
And they haven't worked. And I'm working on this bit about how, like, when you're younger and you're like, I don't need a man. I'm an independent woman. Man or trash.
You get older and you're like, maybe it's me. Like, what are the odds? You know, at the very least, I make bad choices. At the very least, I stayed for two years.
And that thing that I'm like, he's an idiot. It's like, I stayed. I think there's something really powerful about having an epiphany that you're kind of toxic. But you'll have to come and denominate between all of your relationships.
That's it. And just go, you know what? Let me just clean up my side of the street. And let me just see what happens.
You know what I mean? Let me just take responsibility for my part and sort of see what happens. And I've always been kind of trained to believe don't be a gold digger. Do not need money from a man.
Do not need anything from them. And also don't let them take care of you. Because like, that's not their job. Or, you know, you're going to be needy.
You're going to be a succubus. You're going to be a parasite. Like, as I grew up, I'm just going to say it. My mom worked very hard, but she also had to date men for money.
That's what I watched. And I watched her being trapped in relationships that she didn't want to be in that were weird, that were creepy with me and all this kind of stuff. And I was just sort of like, I never want to be that. I definitely overcorrected it.
And I'm seeing a lot of these overcorrections. And now maybe I'm overcorrecting again, but I at least want to kind of try. I love the idea of, look, I'm not going full trad wife. Don't everybody panic.
I still does a bull dyke. Don't worry. But I want to be able to take care of a man. Like, I want to be able to take care of it.
When I see these women, I'm like, I don't cook. I don't clean. I'm like, what do you do? You dirty, hungry bitch.
What do you do? Are you proud of that? Are you proud that you don't cook? How do you feed your stuff?
Is that cool? Like, why is it cooking cool? It's like you're using fire and knives. Why can't this be cool?
Why does it have to be? Why is this lame? Like, I'm just genuinely shocked. Someone that didn't do that for a long time, because I was just literally too busy, you know?
And it worked, you know? Whatever my high functioning autism. I was like, you're going to do that. I'm going to just go grit in the car because I'm of how ambitious I was.
But now I'm just sort of like, don't you? What's the pride around all of this? I'm useless. It's like, why is that somebody to be proud of?
Like, for me, I just, I also enjoy it. You know, I think everyone's sort of a, I'm not doing anything for him until you meet the person that you actually just want to do it for. That's why people have got such a problem with anyone that has a sort of big stake in the ground. This is me.
I'm not going to have kids. I'm not going to get married. I'm not going to do the whatever. And then someone pivots, and then they don't have a retro point at the thing you're, I was wrong guys.
I apologize about that. Or whatever. Or what everybody should do, as far as I can tell. Like, I'm chronically uncertain about everything.
Right? I don't know. Every smart person, I think, is. OK.
Well, yeah. Maybe. And I think, I have no idea if this is the right answer to this. This is something I'm trying at the moment.
I think, to me, this seems to be the right way to go about stuff right now. And this is where people get a problem with, it's one of the reasons that there is a contingent of the internet that's got a problem with human stuff. Because they say, protocols, and he's saying that it's the way to be done. I'm pretty sure that he's saying this seems to be what the evidence just might work.
Take what you like and leave the rest. You know, take what works for you. You know, but I think like, you know, I love what you're saying. Because I think, to me, it's like, you didn't know you were doing nightclubs.
I'm doing this. And then you found the podcast. And then everything clicked into place. This is it.
I think it's probably the same with the person. I think it's the same with the job. I think you really know who you are until you find the thing. You're like, oh, it's this.
It was here the whole time. You know? Last time we were together, you told me to do equine therapy. And then I went and did it.
And I called it. What do I call it? Horse meditation. The lady didn't like the woman that was taking it.
She had mixed opinions on that. But my story for this. Don't call it a horse meditation. Haws meditation.
Yeah. Don't hate it in English. That's why she was crumpt. So it happens with everyone outside of everyone doing horse meditation.
And yeah, that was really interesting. Because reflecting on what it is that you want from an animal, what it is that you need from somebody else. And I started going down a co-dependency, learning rabbit hole after we spoke last time. I think you suggested a couple of bucks to me, which I'm still part way through.
But can you explain codependency seems to be this thing that kind of lurks below the surface? The most people, maybe everybody's got some degree of it. And then some people, it's the driving force. It's in the life.
And the first time that I'd ever heard of it was when I spoke to you. And it seems kind of important. Can you please just promise me that you'll stop me if I'm rambling or if I'm not being clear? All the time.
OK. So codependents, I like a good definition. I live for a good platitude, aphorism. Codependents, the definition that I like to work with, is the inability to tolerate the discomfort of others, or the perceived discomfort, right?
Because we might just be projecting. My specific codependents came from an early age feeling like I need to take care of the feelings of the adults, of I need to behave a certain way to get someone to act like this. Ultimately, it is the same way in alcoholic, you know, is alcohol makes no life on manageable, right? And addiction is continuing to do something despite your life becoming unmanageable.
Poor and making your life unmanageable. You might be a sciatic alcohol, making your life unmanageable. You can still drink alcohol. But if you can make it to work the next day, not unmanageable.
You can make it to work the next day, unmanageable, right? Addiction. Continuing to do the same behavior despite negative consequences, right? So in, you know, AA, you're addicted to alcohol, and NA, you're addicted to narcotics.
In Allen on ACA, you're addicted to perfectionism, people pleasing, shape shifting to try to control other people's behavior, you know, self deprivation is another part of codependents. So codependent, we hear a lot like sometimes it just sounds like you spend a lot of time with a person. That's not necessarily codependent. Codependent, there's codependent, right?
And codependent is you're getting your emotional needs met through another person, whereas interdependent means you're getting your own emotional needs met internally. So addiction being, I'm getting my internal needs met with external things, drugs, sex, and with us, it's other people. It's almost like being addicted to a person. Love addiction is a very close, concentric circle, but that's kind of another thing.
So if you and I are dating, and we're codependent, or you and I are just friends, we're codependent, it is like you send me a text. I just have to, I just have to run right away. There's a fear that my behavior is going to make you uncomfortable or that my behavior is going to make you leave me abandon me, judge me, right? So ultimately it becomes addiction to control, trying to control someone else's perceptions, behaviors, addictions, choices, right?
What's the usual root cause? What are the most common root causes? A lot of things. In my experience, growing up in a home where the adults didn't get their emotional needs met internally, so they were checking out, they were drinking, they were using, they were fighting something else, and then the child as a result goes, I need to try to fix this.
We're parentified children we tend to be. So we had to be adults too young, right? So instead of just being kids, we had to be like, mom and dad are fighting, what if I get good grades? What if I just do great basketball?
What if I just clean this thing? Or for me, there was also a lot of neglect, and there was a lot of I'm on my own, right? No one's gonna take care of me, I can't trust anybody, I just need to, you know? And this belief that your behavior can control someone else's behavior, and it's magical thinking, and it comes from not having consistency, not having people that were fair around you, you know, because alcoholism, we say, like if you grow up in alcohol a column many times, you end up being a codependent, but alcoholism is defined, you know, look, in order for alcoholism to be present, alcohol doesn't have to be present, so when you go through inventory in this particular program, which if you're codependent, you don't necessarily have to do this whole program, it is just kind of like a school for your brain, it's just like a way to repair it yourself and have mature adult expectations of people and yourself.
So, you know, all of the defense mechanisms that you developed as a child to survive your family system, and by survive it doesn't mean it was life or death, you know what might just be on Christmas, your mom puts a ton of pressure on everybody, and everything has to be perfect, and every, the table is set perfectly, that's a form of like alcoholism, this workaholism, you know, obsession with perfectionism, if you grew up around that, it's a way to sort of re-parent yourself so that you are not acting from the point of view of your inner child, who is trying to solve everybody else's problems, manage everybody else, care, take other people, you know, get yourself esteem from your productivity, right, and your usefulness to others, that's a big one, you know? It's like I need to rescue everyone, we've all been in those relationships where you like me, to save them, you need to rescue them, and then you resent them so much, you know? So, Codepenet also has this sort of like, you know, you think you're just really nice, you think you're just like, you know, being a great person, you think you're just like this angel, this rescuing people, but what you're really doing, you're gonna rescue what girls say, you know, this girl, she doesn't have her bills paid, she's in a bad relationship, she's got that credit, I mean, essentially what you're saying is like, you wouldn't be able to survive without me, you couldn't do this without me. So, ultimately a lot of times our help is coming from a place of arrogance and playing God, and trying to change people, trying to fix people.
Desperation two, I'm gonna guess two. In the three M's, mothering, micromar, I'm sorry, mothering, micromanaging, and margaring, you know, those three things. Do you get your self-esteem from being useful to other people, from rescuing other people? Where are you in terms of your ability to like yourself without other people's approval?
Does your mood, is it dictated by other people's perception of you, your achievements, you know, it's a tricky one, because it's something that it's the only, quote, addiction that you get rewarded for, you know? It's if you're a drunk and you actually at a bar, they kick you out, if you're codependent, you're like, no, I'm gonna drive them home, I'm gonna take them home, and I'm gonna take them to rehab, and then I'm gonna get them sober, and then I'm gonna, you know, and it's like, well, you're the hero. But I've made it. We've got the elements of being charitable, being caring, being sensitive.
But that's also selfish sometimes. Well, I guess it depends on where the compulsion's coming from. It's so fascinating because all of these things, the dose kind of is the poison here, the like doing something nice for somebody else, caring about somebody else, having empathy, we really supposed to expect that we would be able to detach our own self-esteem from the opinions of other people, we're a social species, that you know, you should care about your opinion of you more than you care about other people's opinions of you, but assuming that you're ever going to not be able to care about other people's opinions of you, I think it's not gonna happen. Maybe there's some, you know, one in a thousand Michael Malice anarchist, you know, middle finger type people that can do that, but I think they're outliers.
The problem being, where is this coming from? And it seems to me it's the drive, it's this need. If I do this, then I will be wanted, needed, accepted, validated by the world, not abandoned. And this is why it's so tricky because the difference between kindness and codependents is the motive.
So if I drive you to the airport, because I'm like, well, I want Chris to like me, because I want him to put me on a story, and I want him to tell other people that I'm cool, and I'm trying to control, trying to make myself feel safe, and I'm using you, right? That's dehumanizing you. But if I drive you to the airport, because we're friends, and I want to talk to you, and I want to hang out with you, and you owe me nothing in return, and I'm not keeping score, that's just friendship, and that's just service, and that's kindness. But it's one of those things where it's like, other people can see if you're addicted to drugs, other people, but in codependents, you have to fucking do it yourself.
You have to hold yourself accountable, you know? Because ostensibly, I might look like the nicest person in the world, but a lot of times, if I'm overgifting, like I brought you a gift, and I don't know if I'm gonna give it to you, like I'm trying to decide if I should give it to you. This is a real thing, this is where codependent, because I don't want you, I don't want to make our relationship transactional, all of that, do you know what I mean? And I don't want you to be like, I'm not gonna give her something, it depends.