I'm everyone, and this is the CEO of Anassist, the podcast with fans and everything. Welcome. Today, I am joined by Yousef Danik to talk about salt, fat, acid, heat, the book, and Netflix show by Samin Nasratt. Yousef is a huge fan of the book, and I thought it was worth breaking from our current schedule of old cooking shows to discuss it.
The book is wonderful, though I am not without my criticism of it. We also touch on the show, and it's kind of split personality. And we also drafted Dead Presidents Wrestling Match, but it's mostly unrelated. It was one talking to Yousef, as it always is, on a discussion.
Hello everyone, I'm here with Yousef Danik, we're talking about some food. Yousef, how are you? I'm okay. What's going on?
Is this just reserved from earlier? Oh my God, I just am so happy to hear your voice. Yeah, but we haven't really been talking for like 10 minutes already. We don't talk without friends.
Ever since we finished watching the prisoner, our friendship is ceased. I'm the man of my word. I'm not a number. I'm a free man.
We're talking about, I always salt fat, acid, heat. I always get, I'm always worried I get the words in the wrong order. You're layering the elements incorrectly. I'm not, no, no, it starts to salt for salt, salt that acid, the book, the cookbook, and the Netflix series with Samina's rat.
No, it's about right. Yeah, I'm not that people. Yeah, no, we're gonna talk about that. Bad with words and talking sometimes.
It's a new Netflix series of books, a few years old at this point. It's won a bunch of awards and sold a bunch of copies. It's very popular. And you, Yousef, we're taking a break from our old decrepit cooking shows to talk about a new fresh one.
Because you have a very good, you have a very particular affinity for salt, fat, acid, heat. And I read it, I read the book, I watched the show, that we could have some interesting discussions about it, which we'll get to all of it. I love this book so much. Why?
Tell me, tell me why. It's got lovely pictures in it at numbers things. It's like a Richard Scary book of food. I want to know where the worm is.
He's on the ladder. Okay. Well, it's really, I'm surprised you started there, because that is the thing I hate the most about this book. You don't like the worm?
I don't like those weird illustrations. What? They're like, they're like a delicate version, skirting art, and then like, you know, Autobahn Society drawings. I don't, I don't, you like them.
You have the book in front of you? One, I own it digitally. I don't have a physical copy of the book, because I don't have room for most books in my life anymore. Physical books.
The vegetables, how and when? I have it open. I have it open. Oh, God.
I have it open on Kindle. Yeah. I'm not saying, I'm not saying illustrations and cookbooks are bad. I'm saying, I don't like these illustrations, because they're busy and I can't read them.
I don't like, I, I read a lot of comic books way more than normal people. And the one thing you focus on when you're criticizing or, you know, art in comics is storytelling. And storytelling means can you follow what's happening? Can you, without them putting arrows through think like that's, there's arrows, every illustration is like this arrow goes here, and then this arrow, it's leaning around.
Good illustrations don't need that. They, your eye, they are drawn in such a way that your eye naturally flows with the direction that illustrator wants you to go. So all these illustrations of all these vegetables and recipes and stuff are all like here. There's a, here's a picture of like a palm frond, a boil that, and then like there's an arrow that goes to like bottom left, and then it's like, it's like, it's like, trying to place snakes and ladders.
And I just want it to be clear. I just want to understand what's, like, if this book is supposed to be teaching me something, if I have to think about how to read this thing, it looks very nice. I, I, I, I don't, I didn't buy this book for, for like art. I bought this book to learn.
And like, if I buy a textbook and illustrations, like it takes me 10 minutes to like just a parse. I don't want to spend that time doing that. I want to just look a thing and know what it says to me. Like, I don't want to be overly critical to book.
But this is the, my main bugbear. Everyone's like, everyone's like, oh, the art is so beautiful. I'm like, I don't want beautiful art in a cookbook. You want ugly art.
You want, like, and I just ended noise out in trash art, but I want useful art. How about that? We are cooking eggs. I want pragmatic art.
We will use, we will use a jacama. I think that's, and that's my only. My typical, I mean, who's this again? I just ended noise out and there were a seminal industrial band from the 70s and 80s.
They, they repurposed trash and industrial materials into instruments. They're, their, their name means collapsing new buildings. They should write a cookbook. You probably like it.
Absolutely no owls. So I just, I'm just telling you what I feel. Okay. You're the, you're the one who started talking about the art.
Like it's, it's not, it's the thing I got you least in a cookbook. Well, I guess it's good where it started at the beginning. Cause that's, I mean, if you think about a person, when they're a child, they have generated no value. It's only through efforts and the massive skills that they generate well and value.
What are you talking about? I was talking to starting at the beginning. Well, the illustrations are beautiful. Some of them are mysterious.
That's, I will, I will admit that. Although kitchen basics, there's just a knife, no arrows. Some of the flow charts. Okay.
Let's, let's go to what should I cook? Bring that up on camera please. What are you teaching me? Oh, it's this.
193. Turn in your blue books to 193. I can't just immediately get to page 193. I'm sorry.
Oh, I just did digital medium. I mean, I'm not generally like consulting this book with other people. I found that I have brought this book up and shown it to everyone who has the misfortune of coming to my house. I saw it.
I mean, I bought it because I saw it here. I bought this book long before we agreed to do a podcast. I bought this book when I bought it because it looks interesting. What is the point you want to make yourself about?
Okay. So what should I cook? It's a flow chart for the people playing at home. It's a flow chart.
It says, have I read this book? Yes. Or no, it's like decisions. Like then, no, it's like go read the book.
And then it's like, which grade element would you like to experiment with? Salt, facet, facet, facet, facet, facet. Heat facet is going to be my comment. Yeah, that's what they call me.
And it's just then it goes down the list. It's a flow chart. It needs arrows so that it can flow. So argument destroyed there.
Let's move on. And that's one flow chart is not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about the recipes. So these stages of dried beans, just beans and numbers, chemical reaction.
I feel okay about that. Okay. So the like making mayonnaise illustration is it's upsetting. I mean, I understand.
I forget. It's probably in fat. Why is it upsetting? Okay.
Okay. Cause in the arrows to make a mayonnaise and then how to fix a book of mayonnaise. So there's like lots of arrows and it's a very busy. It's a two page spread that's just filled with like hand lettering and like whisks.
And so it stresses you out. I get it. But you know what? Any time I've ever tried to make mayonnaise, I wish I felt this stressed out.
I wish I felt like this would be an improvement on how I feel making mayonnaise. I have never successfully made mayonnaise. I just, it's such a failure. Do you have an immersive blender?
I don't. Get an immersive blender. That is the secret to making mayonnaise. I know this book that goes into great detail about, you know, hand whisking and all that stuff.
I literally just get an immersion blender and it will do 90% of the work for you. There's nothing quite like just throwing away eggs. You like look at them and you're like, I'm sorry. I didn't need to.
He was a promise of a new life. I didn't even nourish myself with you. You're just going in in the trash can. And they go flies with you.
Maybe. I don't. I don't need to talk about the illustrations for like 30 minutes. I'm just like, I find them busy.
And I don't like, I find them very aesthetically pleasing, which I don't really care about. Honestly, in my cookbook, I, I, I, I, I'm not buying this book to like, Oh, this looks nice. I don't, I want it to like, I think it does a great job in teaching, except for the illustrations, because illustrations are like, Oh, this is very beautiful. It feels, and largely it's the, that's just kind of the same thing I feel about the show.
But we can, we can focus on the book at first. Why do you like this book aside from the illustrations, Lisa? I like a cookbook that is a good bit, you know, just very readable. Like this was an interesting read, like I got it from the library.
And just read it because I was like, all right, sounds good. And obviously there are recipes, but it's very approachable and accessible. It's like, this is how food works, and you can make some of it. And it's going to be very good for you to feel that.
And I feel like it kind of taps into the same idea of like, you know, these meal prep companies, you know, like your, your aprons and your freshes or whatever they're called. And so I like the idea of people cooking because it used to be, we, we sat around, we sat around the dinner table and we did each other in the eye. And we discussed the great issues. And we said, how was your day, sweetie?
How about yours, little take? And we don't do that anymore. We just eat in front of the TV and then we just, we just order it out. It's just not special anymore.
And so maybe I can make a Roman egg drop soup. No, I'm not going to make that. That looks like eggs, Jesus. But anyway, be that as it may.
It's, I like the idea of cooking and I connect with this idea of cooking. It's nice and, a nice way to like make your home, like you're making a thing in your home. And people can enjoy it and, and it's just, it's nice. And so I want to get better at it because there is also the idea of you try and make something and like you have this idea in your head.
Like when I was a kid, I, I thought I had this idea that like cooking with wine was the most eleganza thing you could do. I probably mentioned this to you where it's like, I would just make, I would just essentially boil chicken and wine. It was disgusting. But I just thought, oh, this is, this is going to be great.
And like as my family is choking it down and they're just like looking at me and they're like, oh, this is great. I would just, I'd be kind of super proud. But then also like you look at it and you're like, this was bad. Like, how do I make the thing in my brain or like the thing that I can make?
And so I like a cookbook that doesn't just focus on a recipe. I like kind of like with Julia Child, there was a lot of education on like, what do you choose and like how to, how to prepare it, how do you cut things? And you know, there are some helpful info graphics about that, which I like. And I like just not learning recipes but learning the fundamentals of cooking.
And that's kind of how she's organized the book. How much of the information was done here was new to you? Well, definitely all the idea of acid. And probably the thing that I was most familiar with was, you know, like the application of heat because like another cookbook that I really enjoyed was Alton Brown's, I'm just here for the food, which does a really great job of explaining application of heat and like what happens.
But the real revelation for me was salting food. They took me through it. She explained, she's like, there's this stuff. Go to the ocean.
I went to the ocean. And then I forgot what I was looking for. So I went back and I didn't live by the by the ocean. So it took me a long time.
Then I went back to the ocean with the book and she said, okay, there's just stuff. Put your face in the water. Taste it. Oh man, it tastes like something really like if only there was a word.
And she said, that's salt. And I said, thank you, Samin. And so she said, you can put it on your food. It will make it delicious.
I knew about salt, but now because I read the book, but no, the idea of like salting things in advance, like I will not cook a piece of chicken unless it has like sat in some salt for a little bit and it makes it so much more delicious. And then I, it tastes more seasoned when it's cooked. And I think I use less salt overall, but I don't know. I just, you know, seasoning things ahead of time or trying to be more mindful of the arc of like cooking over the course of the week.
You know, what things am I going to make today, tomorrow, Thursday, whatever, you know, when are things going to need to be defrosted? You know, because there's, you go to the grocery store and there's certain things that are going to last different amounts of time. You know, and are you going to want to freeze it? You know, well, okay.
So if I'm defrosting something, there's defrosting time and then there's going to have to be like sort of salting seasoning time. And so it's just organizing my cooking more thoughtfully. So it's practical, but delicious. It's being more generally thoughtful about your cooking.
I think so. Yeah, that was a big, I think that's really the sort of life-changing element of it all. It's just, and I know that sounds stupid or silly or whatever, but like just being more uh-huh. It's so stupid.
Because it's like, yes, you cook food, you eat food, whatever. But you know, I mean, food is important. Food is, you know, we have to eat. And it's for people, obviously, if you're buying this book and you're watching a show, I mean, maybe not a show.
It's on Netflix, people just watch everything. But if you're buying this book, especially, I assume you're wanting to improve your cooking. So that makes, that's what it's there for. You want to be better about cooking and therefore you were thinking about your cooking, therefore you want to be thoughtful about your cooking.
I think I knew most of this stuff in the book already. I mean, I don't always apply it because I'm lazy, but I knew, you know, my wife worked as a cook. And so anything, like, I do a lot of stuff from watching cooking shows, good eats primarily. And she would, she also helped teach me other practical things about working in kitchens.
She's like, you know, the seasoning at every step thing, which is what, that is what, uh, assuming it says, you know, especially in the salting area, but it's kind of, the lessons are kind of, I think that's what this book does very well. It is, it is really well laid out. And it really, it starts with, you know, starts with salt and fat and I say, he is the last thing that, you know, it's the last section before you get to the recipes. And I think every step along the way, the previous lessons are still reinforced.
You know, when you get to acid, it doesn't stop talking about salt and fat. It is just, it, it, because having salt and fat discussed first, it allows her to kind of layer the discussion about here, acid is balancing out the flavors that salt and fat provide. And, you know, and then he is the thing that kind of, you know, you're cooking the food with the heat, but obviously also is bringing together the flavors of the salt, the facet, and the balance the acid provides. So it is well laid out and helps reinforce.
Like as a teaching tool, I think it's very useful and very valuable. And ultimately, like the things I get out of it as a person who's knew most of this stuff is more about ethos, about, you know, do, yeah, think about your food. Every part of the food that you're cooking is important. The salt is important.
Like that, like that, I think it's like, it feels like many, a lot of chefs, I think most chefs under, like they're, they understand the value of their salt, because every single person who's even like, is it like a professional chef or has worked in kitchens, they are very adamant about, yeah, and you need to salt this here and here and here, and you should use good salt, or at least not bad salt, not the metal salt. Yeah, yeah, well, and just the idea of different types of salt, the saltiness coming from the structure, that was pretty cool. I was pretty into that. Yeah, I mean, that's, it is, I don't, I don't, it, at this point, like, I started being, I started taking food seriously, like 10 years ago, at this point, maybe a little less than that, nine years ago, when I moved out from it, when I first got a real kitchen, basically, so I could actually cook in.
And you've been, you mean like taking food seriously, like you're not just making like, reconstituted chicken parts, my cot dogs and stuff, you're like, I'm going to cook a meal. Actually, yes, making like a full thing, when I started doing that, and I, you know, you, at a certain point, I switched over almost fully to like, hey, I just, I don't go, I don't get takeout unless it's an emergency or I'm feeling particularly lazy, I cook, you know, six days a week, which I cook six days a week, probably, sometimes seven. And that, and these lessons, I think are kind of, you don't learn them all at once by yourself even, but I think the ethos thing comes back around to like, just make things and taste them and try and make them good. Well, and she also talks about listening to like, what's going on with the food and like paying attention to it.
And so, okay, so my, my pan-fried fish game is much stronger now because, you know, I understand, like I knew about the concept of like releasing or whatever, but you know, like just kind of being aware of what's going on with your fish, you know, being aware of what's going on with the pan. Okay, if it sounds like this, it's too hot, or if it's doing this, it's, you know, there's nothing going on or whatever and like be patient and, and you know, who cares what the recipe says, like this is what's happening in front of you. It doesn't matter like what some book says, you need to be aware of the ingredients your oven is different than everybody else's your pan is different or this is a little thicker than they thought or any of that. I mean, I used to be mystified when I would see like on the box of like craft macaroni and cheese, like the high-altitude cooking directions.
I was like, wait, if you're in a different place, cooking is differently. What? I mean that, that should have, I should have picked up on that. That was like a they live like sunglasses on moment where I got to see the truth, but I didn't, I didn't, it took, it took yes, yes, consume, but wait a little longer if you're in the Rockies.
I mean, I think that's a, it, I, I, again, that's the thing like, I forget that people don't realize these things because I've known them for a while now, like, and I think that's every single person when you get, start getting serious about your cooking, or when you read a book like this, you're educated basically about like things like that, where you're like, wait in a second, ovens aren't just the same temperature. I just, I put the temper, I put the oven at 350, so it's 350, right? No, that's part, maybe part of your ovens at 350, but yeah, most of it's not, most of the oven is varying some, some of it's well below 350, some of it's well over 350. You got a cup, you have to pay attention, you have to be mindful, gate is wander away.
You know, having repaired my oven, the previous oven, I definitely can see, it's just, it's just a big heating coil, like it's a big box, no way that that can be exact. That's a big metal box, it doesn't, it's not smart, even the smart ovens are not smart. They, they work off the same, she explains everyone on the television show, how, you know, it's just like a thermostat in your house. Hey, guess what, all parts of your house aren't the same temperature, and the oven works the same way.
It's just a big box, it doesn't, you feel it with, you feel it with air, that's hot. And some of the air, that air is the same, is the temperature you want, but most of it's not, most of it, yeah, most of it is inconsistent. So it's the same with, and I think that's the, the, the, what you say about the, I think that is intentional that this book leads off with not recipes, this book leads off with salt, fat, acid, heat, and then you go into recipes that let you explore those concepts. Um, not, it is not, hey, here's a recipe that's about salt, it's here, no, first read about salt, in fat and acid, heat, revolve stuff first, and then start thinking about cooking.
Well, and she structures it like these are good practice recipes, try this out, try that out, you know, figure this out. And, uh, I mean, I kind of started doing that with salads, like a dress salad. I feel like I, I have pretty good at making like an improvised dress salad, which it's not like it's hard, but you know, I understand, I mean, the application of all this stuff and like now it's like that has expanded, you know, how quickly I can make something out of things in the house, you know, it lowers the, the dinner, failure, threshold, like we have nothing, it's time to order Chinese. I mean, that's a better preparation.
Yeah. Oh yeah. No, of course, I mean, life happens, but yeah, sometimes you just, you have things and you're just like, there's nothing in that house. So now it's nice to realize what it is, you know, and it's not just like the idea to be able to come up with sides on the, on the quick is very good and a dress salad is, is a perfect way to do that.
I mean, that's a, it's a, it's a, I mean, that's what we talk about when we're talking about becoming a cook, like is literally just being able to go, okay, well, I need it, I have my main course and I need a side dish, probably it's good to have a variety of a variety of things is good to have not just a big lump of something on a plate and this is dinner. See, I mean, love episode. See the meatloaf episode. I made two meatloafs.
You did make two meatloafs. I'm a champion. I'm a hero. You are a hero.
That's exactly what that means. That's what we say when we use the word hero, but a person who makes two meatloafs. I think their comics would be very different if they were Chibi Olsen, Sous Chef. So I was like, uh, but I think that's, I don't, I don't know, I talked about, I've talked about this with Eric, good night about how you don't understand, I didn't understand, for a long time, I didn't understand what food was, like how food, what food actually was, like, just from, like my, when we had dinner, we didn't have, I didn't have salads with my dinner.
I didn't have some, we didn't have like threes, like we didn't have a side, we didn't have a salad, we didn't have a vegetable, like usually it was like, Oh, here's lasagna. This is your dinner. And like, I like lasagna, but it's not, it's like it is that talk about, um, I think it's my favorite part of, I think like you said acid is the thing you're, you're least aware of. Sure.
And that's what's the same for me. I don't, it's the thing, I don't like salt and fat is easy, uh, and, and heat as well. Like, oh, that stuff is kind of laying grain in the ass is the thing. I'm the last thing I'm picking up because I think it is actually the hardest to, to get right, really seem like to incorporate into like everyday cooking is like, I need to add lemon juice to this to make it better.
But you know, like, it's the thing that I struggle often to think about, like, oh, I should add like, something to this to my not make it just, but it's that thing she talks about, thanksgiving dinner. And she went to thanksgiving dinner and it was good, but it was all kind of the same. And yes, very beige, very beige. And she's like, I just put cranberry sauce and everything, because it at least had some flavor that wasn't the same.
Yes. Yes. And I, that made me think about all the Thanksgiving dinners I've ever eaten in my entire life. And it reminded me of what you said over our past Thanksgiving dinner.
Yes. About how, I forget your exact words. Oh, you said, I think I don't, I don't necessarily, I've always appreciated Thanksgiving dinners because I've always eaten bad Thanksgiving dinners. And, you know, as a kid, you don't care.
You don't notice, really? You just go, this is what Thanksgiving is. Sure. Or do whatever it does.
But as, everything's giving goes by. And particularly, because I haven't had a real thanksgiving in a few years until this year, because I was living in Canada. And they don't really have anything, it is definitely not the same as a chicken. You have a little turkey, but it's just, it's not, it is not the event that it is, it is not like, it feels like it is not the same kind of holiday.
It is a B tier holiday in Canada as not an A tier holiday like it is in the US. You know, you have your A tier holidays, you have Fourth of July, you have Thanksgiving, you have Christmas. And New Year's, I guess, those are your A tier holidays. And everything else is kind of B tier holidays.
I think, you know, Canada is different. And we didn't eat, we're not gonna, I'm not gonna go go turkey for two people. That's insane. Yeah.
And I would argue you should cook a turkey breast for two people. I mean, we just, I mean, we still cook something, but it wasn't, it just made something else, which is like, after it happened back to Thanksgiving, which is like, I had two Thanksgiving meals. And at a certain rate, you're like, I don't, this, I, like, I think whenever the next time I make, I don't know when I'm gonna make a Thanksgiving dinner, because now we're back in the US, I don't think I'm gonna be in the position to make dinner. But I'm like, I don't think I'm not gonna, if I'm gonna do turkey, I'm gonna do like, just turkey, and then a lot of other things that aren't mashed potatoes and stuffing and whatever.
Because when you're just thinking about that food and thinking about how something kind of builds a meal, basically, because that's what this book is teaching you to do. It's kind of building a meal, you have to, because that, it's like, this is, it's like a Tetris when you only have one piece, you can't, you can't do, you can't make, you can't make it work like that. You have to have different pieces. They're all different, and they work together.
Yes, an acid allows you to do a teaspoon of flavor. I don't, I don't know if we want to, is that, isn't it? It's still a sore subject. I'm still like, I looked at Puyo Puyo Tetris on the screen yesterday, and I just thought, man, oh, I'm gonna get you.
Okay, sure. That's, you know, that's nice to have goals in your life. Yeah, so acid. Acid is good.
Acid is good. Okay, so Thanksgiving, let's talk about the Thanksgiving. Okay, a couple years ago, it's the saddest thing. I, um, I was reminded of this because I recently moved and I threw out the French Red Onions that I purchased several years ago from this French Red Onions, not years old French Red Onions.
A couple people, a couple of family folks in various, you know, the various thanksgivings one does in both camps, they're like, you cook, why don't you bring gravy and casserole? I was just like, it was voices that. It was just a voice of somebody who wanted to torture me. Oh, I got it.
And so I did. It's, I mean, two just terrible soup, gray, green bean casseroles. And I was just like, so crestfallen, because it was just the most disappointing thing. And what I should have done is I should have said, okay, I'll bring green bean casserole.
But, you know, I'm gonna do it right, but I didn't really understand how to do it right. I just, I would have done something else that I cared about. So that was like a real bummer, because here I am like, yeah, I'm at the age where like, you know, you go to Thanksgiving, you should probably bring a dish. And so, you know, last Thanksgiving, I feel like I did a, I don't know, you had my, you had my puff pastry.
What do you think? It was amazing. It's very good. I was very pleased.
I was very pleased. And you know, I found a recipe or whatever, but it was just like puff pastry and caramelized onions, which I understood that like, oh, let's add some brown sugar to these onions to make them caramelized. Like, that made sense to me. Like when I read the recipe, I was like, that's what's happening in the recipe.
I understand this more. Like, I have more like, you know, I get what's going on here. It's like, I understand like where the screws go and this IKEA shelf, like I get it. I've seen shelves before.
So it caramelized onions and brie, you know, bake it. It was delicious. It was just a delicious pastry. And then, but I made a second bash for other family Thanksgiving.
And they were, oh man, these are the ones, these are the ones I wish I had brought the first time because they were, I learned about not crowding the pan a little bit and the structure was a little better. And I don't know, it's nice to, so I felt very good. I felt, I had redeemed myself from the horrendous gray green bean casserole fiasco of a few years ago and brought something and like, had the agency to just say, I am bringing this, you know, and just trust me, it'll be good. And that that felt better, that, you know, felt more like having, you know, a stake in what I was doing.
And I think that's a direct result of understanding, you know, the lessons of this book are just cooking in general. It's not like she made this stuff up. You know, I don't think she's, you know, making that case or anything. But it is, I think this will be a, this is a revelation to people who are just starting out or people who have been cooking for a while, but aren't quite, you know, where they need to be, which I would put myself in that.
Well, I think it's a, it is, there's levels of learning. It's cooking, like this is, I don't want to call it a hobby. I mean, though, it makes it feel like a hobby. Because it goes beyond just doing, because I have to.
Yeah. So you have, because you have to eat, you don't need to cook though. You, at this point, if most of us are like, you have a certain amount of income and you have access to, you know, or you live lots of food. Even if you don't, even if you cook all the time, you don't need to cook on this level, you can just make, you know, like frozen chicken or whatever.
You know, I'm not even saying like prepared stuff. Like you can make, you know, like, you know, boil some frozen veg and, and, you know, do some like frozen chicken things and, you know, whatever. Right. Microwave potatoes or, you know, you can cook and it's like food, you know, growing up, my mom was always like, when she cooked, it was like, well, no one ever starved.
And I love my mother. She's a delight. But it was never fancy. It was never like this, this application of this, whatever, you know, it was all very beige food.
Cause you know, that's good. She grew up and they had like a billion brothers and sisters. And it was like, you know, we just needed to eat, you know, here's some bread on the table just to fill it out, just in case, you know, it was a very different tradition. Well, I mean, I think it's, I think it is, I think it feels very generational.
And I think prior to our people around our age, people in the 30s, there wasn't as, there is, because I think we grew up with food television being a, with shows that are more approachable, that aren't Julia Child and, I mean, Julia Child is more approachable. But I mean, like, if you go to Food Network or something, it's not just Emeril, you know, it's not Mario but Tali. It's people like out in Brown or, um, Yankikkuk. Yankikkuk or here, I'm going to, I know you hate her.
Rachel Ray. I mean, I know you know, it's fine. I, I still think she serves, I think Rachel Ray serves, uh, she, some people need gateway drugs, you know, you know, you know, in 1984, they had the minute of hate. That's the, that's the purpose she serves.
So, so, so much anger towards just a person you've never met. Just made a TV show. She just, she's a cook. She's on TV.
You said you don't want to hate her. I don't hate her. You seem like you hate her. I don't like her.
I don't like her. I resent her. Okay, sure. Okay, whatever you say, but I'm a lot more about me than it does about her.
Yeah. Yes. I don't think she, like, she doesn't think she does not think about you. I don't exist to her.
Exactly. Um, how presumptuous of her, un presumptuous, un presumptuous, there you go. Just keep using words that don't mean anything in this instant instance. What I'm saying is, I think, and now that you talk about those, you know, the blue aprons and all that, uh, yes, they have, it is come back around to people going here, try and cook, make something nice, you know, quote, unquote, nice that it takes effort in time to put towards it.
I don't, I think people, like you look back at recipes and cookbooks from the 50s that weren't like super fancy. Like it is 50s, 60s, 70s. It is casseroles. It is like, they, it is you put a jello dump dump.
Oh my God. There is a book is the history of jello cooking. And I saw on, I saw on people talking about Twitter. Oh my God.
I want to read it so bad. It looks amazing. Oh, good Lord. Such animal bones.
Jello is the most aggressive. There's not aggressive thing. You can make vegan jello. That's it is possible.
Um, that's not cockers. I understand. I understand. I'm just, I, that's a side note.
I need to, I want, we should, we should read that book and talk about it at some point. Oh my God. It's really, it's so fascinating. It looked like it's like food sociology.
Yes, there are. There's like, oh God. Exactly. It's so, it's so fascinating to me that, that for like two decades, people did that regularly.
A microwave cookery is another one. Like when we got our carousel microwave in, in the late eighties, or as no, it must have been, I can't remember, it might be like 89, 90. Like there's like a cookbook and like there's all this stuff you could just cook in the microwave. It's like, no, no, two way.
No, but, but that, that's kind of the non fancy, you know, we're making food to survive and to eat. We're not going out. You know, it's, I mean, you can look your, you're like down your nose at it, but it's, it's a different purpose. Like, how, how nice it must be to have the luxury of, uh, you know, being able to say this is disgusting.
Well, I mean, I think it's just, here's food. We're not dying tonight. Well, I, I don't think anything is that. I don't think it's necessarily like all, I mean, like, it's not like I was ever, I don't think my parents weren't ever in the decision where like, oh, they were happy just to have food.
I think it was more about, I think socially, culturally, like food wasn't making your own food and making it good. Wasn't as important as first, like it, because there was all these like new technologies, like microwaves and, and jello and jello moles and like canned food that could last a long time. Like no one was used to that. They were used to having like my mom grew up on a farm.
So she had, when she was a child, they regularly fresh food. They, they read fresh food all the time. But as she grew up, she moved to living by herself, she never didn't have access to that food anymore. And she became a homemaker.
She became a mother. It was more about using the food that is pushed upon you. Like, I think now we are lucky in 2018 for at least people living in, you know, non-rural areas, I would say places with, you know, whole foods or regular grocery store, we have access to fresher food, we have access to better ingredients that we've ever had to people who didn't grow up on a farm, basically. Like, I think the reason that a lot of food prior, you know, at least when I was growing up and cooked by my mother or by people her generation is because they're used to cooking with food from cans because that is what they were told to cook with.
That is here. This is how you cook. And I think that is like, ultimately, why this book is great is because it ultimately is like, here, this is how you, you're only going to learn really by doing it. Like, this book is like, here, go do this, go do food, taste the salt, how much salt is in it, taste how much fat, like figure out how much fat is in it.
And here's how much acid, and here's how to apply the heat. And ultimately, like, that is the most valuable lesson is you have to try and you have to use like, hey, use fresh ingredients. Don't use stuff from cans unless it is very specific applications. Don't use stuff that has all just condensed in sodium.
You want to use real salt and salt it yourself and season it yourself. And also don't like completely blast it out. Like, I was talking to my sister about, like, she went to KFC and she was like, so excited by the, the green beans. And she's like, they're just so overcooked.
It's wonderful. Because she's a vegetarian and KFC is all about sides. And also, you know, she's a very good cook. I would argue she's a much better cook than I am.
And you know, so it's just very funny, you know, like, she gets to like go on vacation with these green beans because she would never make green beans like this. So it's just kind of funny to think about how, like, yeah, this is just how people made green beans. Like, it was a revelation to me that green beans when prepared could be not brown. We're not.
Yeah, I mean, that's, and that's the thing about most of the most of the food I think most people's experiences with food is they don't like a thing because every version they've ever ate of it was poorly prepared. Yeah. And all it takes is one time where like Brussels sprouts for me. That was it.
That was Brussels sprouts for me. When I learned, oh, you actually can make a made Brussels sprouts can be amazing. If you just cook them correctly, it's really not as long as you don't boil them down in a mush, you just put them in a pot and just let them sit for a day and you're like, oh, actually, if you just pay attention to them and season them well and cook them correctly, they taste really, really good. And that's, that's the, I think, ultimately, it's a thing you have to get past when you are trying recipes of food, trying food, you got to go like, because every time I tell people, I'm like, oh, I say, like, I make amazing, I'm like, I know, I know that I make really good Brussels sprouts.
I can make very good Brussels sprouts. And people go, oh, I hate Brussels sprouts. I'm like, you haven't tried my Brussels sprouts. Now, bro, try mine.
Try mine. On a side note, have you ever had Brussels sprouts law? Yeah. Yeah.
Yeah. That was a revelation. Like, we went to like some southern place in Fern and Dina Beach, which is by Jacksonville. Thumbs down Jacksonville.
You suck. What? Why the angel ray of cities? Wow.
Shots fired. Got lit, thrown. I'd rather go to Miami. Oh, because I never been to Miami.
You never been to Miami? Yes. Although I'm told, I'm told that when you go for art basil, Miami Beach, that's what you're supposed to say. You're supposed to say it that way.
Otherwise, you look like a a roob, a country mouse. Eric's a good night. He, he, he helped me out. He showed me the way.
So now I'm ready to go. I'm going to take the art world by storm. And I'm not going to be in Jacksonville. But anyway, when I was in the greater Jacksonville area, in Fern and Dina Beach, we were into this delightful barbecue joint that Oprah went to.
And she liked it too. So, you know, it's good. But they have broccoli sloth. And I'm not broccoli sloth.
They had, um, Brussels sprouts. I was like, what is this? You can have for all Brussels sprouts. I was amazed.
And of course, I made it when I got home, because it was good. But it's, it was a revelation to me. Like, I didn't understand that you could just have this like, not that I thought it was poison, but it just didn't occur to me that you could just combine these things in that way. And I was like, well, it's like a little teeny tiny cabbage.
So that's fine. I guess the thing is, is I painfully stupid. And sometimes you, you look at a rainbow and you see the face of God. You're not, you're not painfully stupid.
I mean, it's the, I think it, for me, it was like, I think that the thing, the first thing you encounter that opens you up is the thing you're going to proselytize about, basically, you know, for me, it was good eats for a long time. I, I love good eats until I set off two smoke alarms. That was on me. I didn't understand.
I said, I said to the apartment, they were like in alternating, and then sometimes they would sync up and there'd be this beat frequency. Oh, man. We can't talk about fire smoke alarm beat frequencies. I'm just saying, like, the thing that opens you up to that is usually the thing that you immediately connect with.
Is it, you mentioned some of your people? Yes. How much of that do you think is connected to your, your enjoyment? It's nice to finally have representation.
No, I mean, she's Iranian. And that's, that's real cool to me. Cause then, you know, that was kind of part of the initial, like, ooh, is there going to be, what's going to be her take on rice? It's going to be her take on cobab.
Like, how's she going to talk about how to dig? And all of those things, all of those things are very satisfying to me. Cause it's like, you know, these are, these are things I care about. Like, I mean, we talked on the Griot's episode, the Galbi Gourmet episode about, like, rice and how important that is to me and, and all of the process and, like, figuring out those recipes was very important to me.
Cause, you know, I mean, my dad, he was very good cook, you know, and he'd be like, come watch. And, you know, but he wouldn't, you know, really, it wasn't really great. The teaching or just sort of human interaction department. Um, and so even he was a spectacular chef, like just, I will just a cook, like a spectacular home cook.
Like he made food that you were ready to, like, engage with. I mean, it was just spectacular. And he would make it on his grand scale. And, you know, he did all of these things, you know, like, made his own yogurt.
And it was spectacular, except in the mornings when, like, you saw him, like pouring the, the milk down the sink and you kind of stepped a little more lightly, cause that was a lot of milk that was going to waste. And that was a problem. But are he like, pickled things? He made his own torshi and, and, uh, which is just like pickled vegetables and, um, yeah, obviously his rice was spectacular and his kebab and all this stuff, you know, and it was very like, you know, and he passed away.
All of that knowledge kind of like, obviously couldn't, you know, didn't have a cookbook or anything like that, that I could engage with. And so, um, figuring out those recipes, figuring out the rice, figuring out the kebab, you know, looking up how to make torshi, deciding that it is not worth it at this point in my life to make my own yogurt, uh, kind of brought me closer to like the good aspects of my relationship with him and like growing up and everything. Um, so it was very nice to see that kind of thing, albeit in a more healthy and normal manner manifested in Samin's journey with it. You know, even just talking to, uh, like, like, okay, to talk about the TV show, like what she's saying, you can tell dig with her mom.
I mean, that was like, whoa, not a dry, I was like a Pixar movie, man. I was thinking about you the entire time. I was like, it was, I'm getting a little, a little in my feels right now. Just thinking about it.
Like I'm glad that was the fourth episode because like I had, I was able to sort of drain these tear ducts a little bit. Like the first one, I was just like, oh, it was like, it was like, it was like, are you okay? Like, I'm a tiger. This is very bad.
This is a good show. I like feeling like that. It's very, not, not pretty. It was like ugly.
It was as bad as when I watched AI that one time in the theater. That's my sister about that. How over you? I don't know when did it come out.
Hey, I like 2000. There you go. That's how old I was. That's 2000.
I think that's not Facebook. You take your number, you take your number and you subtract the year and then that's the year that it is. We need Facebook to tell that we need Facebook to tell time. Yes.
I wouldn't Facebook like to tell time for us. Let's talk about the TV show a little bit. Okay. Which is, it's four episodes.
One episode for each element, basically, salt, fat, acid, yellow. She talks about all of them. Like just like the book, they are layered. So she referenced the other other things as when she's discussing any of them.
But I'm a little more, I don't know. Maybe if I hadn't read any reviews about the show, I probably would think it's, I would probably be just, I'd be probably be glowing about it because I think watching it is very enjoyable, very pleasant. But the shows, the reviews I read are like talking about how it's transcended and there's no other cooking shows like it. Well, because it wasn't really a cooking show.
It was a documentary about like cooking, I guess. I don't, I wish it was one thing. I think I wish it was just like one thing, not. I wish it was just like her teaching, frankly.
I kind of want just that. I just want her teaching me how to cook. I don't like, I appreciate the travel log stuff. Like because God, that stuff, like everywhere she went, everything looked amazing.
Like the show is beautiful. The camera work, the food, all everything looks amazing. And you know, she's like the, God, that pig, the pig, the Italian pigs, like look at all that meat and the fat. I'm just like, oh my God, I need that.
Yeah. Yeah. And she's getting into it. And I like her as a host of that, you know, like she's a nice personality for it because she's not like this super strong, you know, like aggressive personality, like a, like a, um, not Mario, but he's like a bullion or like emerald is aggressive or, you know, like this popping or like Rachel Ray is, how about, how about, um, what about a guy?
Yeah. I mean, he's fine. Whatever. Is he the one that is like, he's like, uh, trash mongers and dives and trash one with the donkey sauce?
Why did you store trash monger? Isn't that what it's called? Like Diner's drive isn't dives. Yeah.
The trash or monger is not any of those words. I don't know. I just thought of his face. Why?
I feel like I was just going to say, I feel like I need to dial back from my feelings about him. Cause you know what? I've eaten at some of the restaurants that he has this like guy eight year little stamper on. And it's nice.
It's like, he came and he like wanted a simple thing. And I get it. I mean, you know, he, he had his weird restaurant and Times Square, you know, fried food, whatever, but that's fine. I, you know, it's okay.
Like I need to be less judgmental. Sort of like I decided a little while ago, like a couple of years ago that I was going to make my piece with smooth jazz, you know, and I just don't, I don't need to be like some champion of like, what is cool? Cause you know what? That's, that's the surest way to, you know, well, I mean, like we were talking about, they're playing Spoon in the grocery store.
You're not cool anymore. It's done. It's over. So let's, so now that feeling about Guy Fieri, let's move that on to like, move that on to Rachel Ray.
No, I just, I can't. He is, he's benign. Are you saying that Rachel Ray is malignant? I think so.
Oh my God. I mean, ask some of the dogs that went to the doggy hospital because of I don't know if any dogs actually went to a dog. The price of a cup of coffee a day. No, we're not.
We can start a legal offense fund to put her behind bars. That's okay. Lock her up, Robbie. Oh, we're done.
We're over. This is it. Goodbye. No, no, poor Rachel Ray doesn't deserve that.
The television show is very beautiful. And yeah, she is very, she's very enthusiastic. I think that's the one thing the book after like watching television show, like the book doesn't adequately convey her enthusiasm. I feel maybe just, I think the book is, it conveys enthusiasm, but I think it is just limited to the fact that you can't hear her voice.
You can't see her. Yeah. It's, it's written word, but you know, you watch the show and everything she touches. She's so happy.
She's so excited. I mean, I would be too, if I was making that focaccia, just like watching it all happen in front of me, I'd be like, Oh, this is, yeah, this is amazing. The whole time. I just think that all I'd be thinking.
But I think, yeah, her on air personality is, it's, it's much more, it is more brilliant. It is, she is that enthusiasm comes across like the way she is so happy about all this food. So, so what's the, I'm not, I'm not a magnetic, maybe? I don't know.
It draws you in her, her happiness and excitement about it. Yeah. And I mean, she seems, I mean, well, she kind of talks about it a little bit in the preface when she's talking about like saving up with her friend to, and back to the book, but like saving up with her friend to like, you know, eat at Shapenny, you know, this fancy restaurant, you know, because she like was interested in food and wanted to engage with that. And I thought that was kind of interesting and like kind of cool.
And then she ends up working there and becoming, you know, like a bona fide chef. I feel like that kind of communicated the excitement or like, you know, the narrative about like talking about their mom's food, you know, after they went swimming and the salt and this and that, the cucumbers and everything, you know, I feel like that really communicated the her enthusiasm in a very like elegant and edited like subtle way. And that propelled me to enjoy and connect with like the stuff later on in the book where she's just talking about making like mayonnaise. In a way that like, you know, she like got what she needed to, like she laid like a baseline of like, this is how important this is to me.
And she got that out of the way and let like the sort of food kind of take the take the show, which was totally appropriate for the cookbook. I feel like the show is less, I mean, it's not like they took salt, fat acid, heat and made it a cookbook. I feel like it's more like, what is it, the orchid thief, you know, yeah, adaptation and the orchid thief and all that. It's like, we just, we took an idea and then we like ran with it in a different way.
Although, I mean, it would be amazing if this was directed by Charlie Kaufman. It'd be a very different show. I don't want to show. Nobody wants that show.
I kind of want it, but I want to be able to have it and not have it. I think adaptation is great, but I don't think nothing else needs to be like, I don't want another. I don't want anything else like that. That is true.
But the show is very good. It is a different thing. I think I'm kind of travel-logged out. Yeah.
Because I in, you know, anything, Renee just passed and I've watched so much, so many of his shows and so many of other shows, like, I'll travel logs, you know, mostly food travel logs. I've seen a lot of them. And I think her personality is the thing that makes this different. And like they have it.
I wish it would commit to either this is educational or this is purely like food tourism. And I maybe this is like, I don't know, maybe this is just like an advertisement for the book, basically. But I, you know, like she has scenes where she's in her kitchen and cooking and showing like this is here. Look, this is how to apply salt.
This is how you, you know, all that stuff. But then there's also like purely indulgent things like watching people, you know, a billion dollar olive oil. Yeah, or grow or grow these, those pigs, which I imagine that meat is extraordinarily expensive. Those are like boutique heritage pigs, like that guy, his farm, how many pigs did that guy have in his farm?
Maybe a hundred quite a few. Yeah. And which is not a commercial farm, but not a career like a person. If I had a hundred pigs, you'd be like, you know, a lot of pigs.
Yeah, for a single farmer, yeah, a hundred pigs is a good number. But for a single farmer to make money, I say like, as a, as a selling just selling pork, those pigs would have to be extraordinarily expensive. I'm sure they are. And all the meat is any butcher's own meat.
So that tells me something already that clearly those pigs are extraordinarily expensive. And that's what I think in Ford's do that. Yeah. And that's the, I think that's my other thing that I don't think it's, I'm not blaming this is not on her or the show or this book.
And it's, I think it's, it's a thing I've like, I've been coming to, like a feeling, a general feeling about it. And that's actually the thing I really appreciate about. Why can I think of the show? You said that we just watched.
No reservations? No, with the meatloaf. Oh, oh, yeah. Eating cheap.