Hello and welcome to classical stuff. You should know a podcast about the classical world education and whatever else happens to pop into our minds Well, we have microphone in front of us My name is Thomas Magby, and I'm joined as always by Graham Donaldson So no hidden conversation to start this podcast. Seriously. No secret recordings speaking of secret recordings ever since you started talking about your weightlifting I really should have been and I like us to prep it just so I said his name also AJ Hanenburg Paper who turns on recording whenever he feels like it.
No, thank you We were just talking about weightlifting before this we were anything to recap from that the answer is no good choice Yes, we are if you've never met us before then just trust our description that we're all we're all right Yeah, shoulders that tickle my earlobes or something. Yeah, so we are the perfect combination of both mind and body So yep, that's all I got. I don't have to shrug to hold a phone to my ear I just flex my shoulder and then pins it that's an odd definition of like yeah shoulder You know, I got it, but anyway never thought of it that way before all right my calves are the size of actual calves baby cows So you're a giant is what you're trying to say Graham is also 10 feet tall. Okay, so I Can't think of a witty comment to make so AJ you have the topic for today.
All right today I'm going to be talking about a book. I may have hit a bat in a previous podcast. I can't remember But it is it is called the heroities and it was originally published by over do you ever heard of it? The heroities just by title just by like knowing people making reference to it Yeah, it's like hero eyes.
It is not over. It's most most popular. What's most popular book by would you know? Metamorphosis, which is great, and I'm sure I'll do a podcast on a golden bow I don't think so.
Okay. No, well, there's there are like religious studies guys who like captured that story That's how I know the golden bow all right. I don't think he wrote it Anyway, are you talking about the golden bow from the Indian nope from it's a I was get this wrong. It's about Where?
What's the thing that you at Christmas time that you hang in trees and if you stand under your supposed to kiss But we're missile to comes from really yeah, I'm thinking the same thing I'm probably not but I want to buy it through religious studies class at UT like five years ago So that's why I'm really great. Okay, so the heroities translated in English would be the heroines not the drug but as in good a female hero Right, and let me tell you a little bit about Ovid and then I will move on to the book So Ovid's whole name is Publius Ovidius Nasso. That's a name which is hard for us to say so he shortened it to Ovid And get simpler on ourselves. He was born March 20 in 43 BC and he lived until 17 or 1880 Which is about 60 or so he lived in the in the reign of Augustus right after he defeated Anthony and Cleopatra and all those folks So he lived through that time that same time when everybody else did I think he was a contemporary of and the guy who wrote the Ennied Virtual and so they all they are all sort of right at the same time and he He was sent by his dad to study rhetoric with the notion of eventually becoming a lawyer his brother died 20 years old not when Ovid was 20 but when the brother was 20 and that was I think really hard on Ovid So he left law studies and started traveling like he traveled all over including Greece He held some minor public offices one was called the Tresviri capitales Which is like kind of like a justice of a piece, right?
And he oversaw prisoners and some other things and then he resigned that eventually much to his father's chagrin to pursue poetry around 2925 BC now if you've done the math he's between 14 and 18 When he's like he was told in public office or he was told he was in front of office at 14 Yeah, I'm kind of squiffy about that. That doesn't sound he at least resigned his law his pursuit of law I think the holding of office happened later But like he really decided to pursue poetry in his teen years I mean, that's already interesting thought is just when you hear those stories of he was studying law at 14 I usually think oh well, you know, I guess it has had crappier standards back then or whatever But now I think like I kind of feel like there are if education is done right I kind of feel like you would be able to do kind of those sorts of things at 14 15 16 anyway That's what I'm learning says you're supposed to like get a job at 16. Yeah, it's a whole other topic for sure So he wrote an elegy which is a specific poetic form. Not I know that they're elegies Which is the kind of serious poem you write for dead folks right?
That's a eulogy, but there's also you a huge eulogy was a funeral speech an elegy is a funeral poem perhaps But this isn't this isn't quite that this is a specific poetic form that the Romans use and it's a couplet It's written in couplets with one hexameter line followed by a pentameter line and it's really complicated I could go into it But it's it's a long syllable followed by either another long syllable or two short syllables Right? It's it's either one of the two that happens four times and then along a short short and then two longs and that's line one Instead of saying you could go into it. You are going to go directly into it And then that's the first line. The second line is another like two feet of the long with either a long or two short Take your word for it And then along and too short and along and too short and along and I say all of that to stress that take notes It was hard, right?
It's it's a difficult form to write in and if you read translations of Ovid It's it's pretty easy flowing easy going but in the original language It had held to a very specific very difficult form They were writing in although those Romans it seemed to be a like people generally regarded as not as difficult as writing full-on hexameter epic poetry And so it was often concerned less with big epic things and more with individual people and their experiences and what was going on individual lives In fact most of Ovid stuff centered on erotic love right love between people and the the Herodes is no exception That so he he wrote a lot he wrote the Metamorphoses which is a hexameter poem in 15 books. It's really big I'll do a podcast on it at some point. It's really fun I'm sure we've referenced it in a few spots and then he was exiled in 8 AD by the emperor It's it's one we still got this we still don't know really why there are a lot of people have tried to figure it out But Ovid himself gives weird conflicting clues in his writing as to what it was he calls it poem and a mistake So there's a poem that may have been a big offender But the poem that we think it might have been was like a few years before he was exiled So there may have been some plot he was aware of against the emperor in any case It was the emperor himself and not any judge or the Senate or anybody else that was involved was just like Ovid is out And so he was exiled to Thomas a place called Thomas on the Black Sea and his last writings were generally concerned with I want to come home Like his first few poems were talking about how the place there was really barbaric and he didn't like it and his health was bad And then there he wrote a few it was just letters to people at home like please advocate for me I really want to come home hello mata hello fly I am Entertaining and they'll say we'll have some fun if it stops raining. What is it from?
Clearly clearly over the tune is the tune is a tune is a is is a classroom is some classical piece And then it was some I don't know like show me in the 60s Someone's gonna email. I know she's like my parents used to sing to me when I went to bed. Yeah Like I went hiking with Joe Spivey he developed poison ivy. Oh, and my and my buck made he's no sissy no I know our our Counselor wants no sissy.
So he reads to us from something called Ulysses You remember I remember Joey Spivey. They're about to organize a searching party Anyway, it's pretty funny. Yeah, that's a good sign out of the look of the lyrics to that after this. Oh good.
Oh, it's a bit They Rome actually officially revoked his exile, but a little too late. They died in December of 2017. Oh, oh wait Really? No kidding.
They finally were like oh, you're clear buddy. Come on. Come on back about that. Why would you?
What was their official right? Why would you do that? I don't I don't know. I didn't look just cuz they like me now I mean, he's got a good reputation now.
I can see what I want him back. So the heroities is to repair the serious wrong Sorry, but that's what it says here. That's funny So the heroities may have been one of the first books he published there's there are some some books that he published that were more Concerned with seduction and that sort of thing probably earlier, but it was one of his earlier writings They think it's really hard to nail down exactly where his writings all came out because fragments and we're not really sure when they were all published But this one in specific is easy to read in bits and pieces because it's not one continuous story In fact, it's difficult to read kind of on its own because it references a lot of outside mythology and what the heroities is is it's letters from Heroines to the heroes and so you have letters from the female characters in books all to the male characters in books at least That's the first 14 of the poems the 15th is one from a completely unknown female to an unknown male They're not in any other stories as far as we know So that one's kind of an outlier and then the last ones that may have been added later were duo poems So from the male to the female and then from the female back to the male and so you get both perspectives So there's a lot of people in here There's one from Medea to Jason if you guys know anything about Medea You know about Medea Medea and Jason went on a quest to get some Golden Fleece and they got it and came back and then Jason ditched Medea to get with the King's daughter and Medea goes crazy. I'm sorry Medea is Sperned and so she eventually kills her kids and herself I don't remember the very end.
I think she rides off on a chariot with dragons in one of them And she does kill her the girl that Jason runs off with by offering her wedding clothes that are soaked in poison Yeah, and so that poor girl dies She also affect I mean she was a horrible person in every piece of mythology except for the heroities She's not sympathetic at all Yeah, she's a barbaric sorceress who does all this crazy evil stuff including she wanted to kill this king and so she can she convinced Him that she had the secret to returning his lost youth And that secret was to have his daughters chop him up into pieces Boil him and then he would be like put him back together and he'd be restored and only as the flesh was boiling The daughters are like this doesn't seem right wait a minute. We just chopped up and boiled our dad and she's like got ya Yeah, so yeah, so Bum-bam-dan- p-dan-dan-dan-dan-dan-dan, what the is that? Anyway, so she's pretty evil but in the road He's we at least to get a little bit of the synthetic note from her right where she you know She's got some student someone synthetic of it again you press a Jason Jason bit raise her and then her poor life choices begin right exactly And we also get letters from Penelope to atticious and in that one she sort of hints that she knows that he is Staying away from home to have malleants as women. She's like you have a kid I am here waiting for you I will be faithful get your took us home you lazy bomb and that's kind of greek for took us is that or maybe that is That's a bum in the greek.
Thank you. I think the latin. Oh, I mean, yeah, thank you to go to go to the top He's a verb So I wanted to read you guys a couple of letters and I'm not gonna read the entirety of all of them I think I'm gonna read two in their entirety and one only in portion But all three of these are parts of the same story. That's why I chose these three in the book They're not in order you actually I'm gonna I'm gonna jump forward and then I'm gonna jump back But again, you don't need to read these in order.
It doesn't matter much But there are three principal people we're gonna sit around if you're a classist yourself You'll recognize most of these folks if you're not you might not recognize them I'll try to fill in any of the weird stuff that you don't understand as we go and I hope you guys enjoy them And sure the first is from Paris. Oh, yeah to Helen. What's up girl, right? Can you guys know about Paris?
Um Paris is the younger brother of Hector. He is beautiful and he knows it Oh, yeah, he knows he cute all the girls like him. He's he's a good fighter, but he doesn't really like getting hurt Or fighting or fighting he's a good fighter. He just would rather not have people think he was a good fighter and actually do And he's kind of a spoiled rich boy in many ways not originally.
No, no, he lived on a he lived on a mountainside until he was young Oh, that's right. He was sold by a bear and then raised by a huntsman. I mean it's right. He's good sports like Canadian Clearly a Northman and then the gods one day asking to pick So some of this stuff is gonna come across in the letter So that's just a primer that he comes from the Iliad and from some several other books Yeah, you look the first time you see him in the Iliad he is wearing a leopard skin across his shoulders carrying two spears I'm hoping in front of his army saying I challenge any of the greatest Greeks to fight me in one-on-one I'm like me and my Calvin's and then Menelaus is like sure and jumps off.
He's like let's rock and he's like oh Oh, and then he says no. Yeah, it's real big It sort of just tries to like fade into the army and then his brother yells at him and rightfully something awesome So this is his letter to Helen. Okay, and Helen will learn more together. This is before they're together.
Okay, I Son of Prince. Oh, sorry. You have to put yourself in the position of a lover. These are these are there These are stories that That have a lot more human emotion in them and it's like reading the personal missives between people It's really cool.
It's it's as if you found your mom and dad's love letters and then got to read all those these are very personal That doesn't sound cool I am now financially stable Are you willing to become a Donaldson okay check yes check now I son of pream sent to you the daughter of Lita Quick note on Lita what so Helen was the daughter of Lita now and Zeus Lita and Zeus and do you know how Zeus got away with hanging out with Lita? He pretended to be a swan. He didn't pretend to be a swan. He became a swan He became a swan and then hung out with her and then she in the same night spent some time with her husband and then later gave birth to two eggs They didn't you know these happen.
That's not you guys. That's just sides. No, and so one of them held I think it was Zeus's kids and the other held the mortal kids either that or one was the girls and one was the boys but she gave birth to Caster and Pollux and Helen and quite an estra and quite an estra was the mortal Helen was the demigod She was the daughter of Zeus, so she's she real pretty and quite an estra not as pretty long unfortunately So prayers for my well-being something that will come to me only from you Should I speak or is my flame of love so visible to all that I need not speak and my love is all to a parent I would prefer that it be hidden until the time came for me when joy and fear might be distinct Could man conceal flames when their light can be seen by all however I will enhance the fact with words I am consumed by the fires of love now you have the words that bear my heart's message I beg you forgive my confession do not read what follows with a hardened face But with a face that shows your beauty for a long time now I've been cheered because you welcome my letter welcome to my letter and perhaps in time you might extend that welcome to me I hope that what the mother of love has decreed should come from this journey will be just as she herself caused the journey I hope that her promise that you would be mine has not been made foolishly because I've set sail for your shores at her command You should not sin without knowing you should not sin without knowing this I sail for my port and no minor goddess has favored me with her protection The prize for which I am in contest is great, but I want nothing that is not mine She who came from Sithra has already promised you for my wedding chamber So she came from Sithra would be Venus right Aphrodite and we'll get to the judgment in just a second where this is all coming from He's claiming that Helen is his by right by right of the gods with her as my pilot I left the beaches of Sijian behind riding in a stern built by Ferriclas I have sailed the doubtful ways of the oceans flood she it is who favors me with gentle winds and a gentle breeze without a doubt She rules the sea because she came from the sea may it be that she still favor me May she still quiet the urges of my heart as she calms the tumult of the wave May it be granted to me that with her help my pledges will find their safe harbor I carried with me the flames of my desire displays was not kindled in this place neither a harsh storm nor a lost way brought me It was the cause of such a voyage the beginning my ships were on a course that only took them to Tenerys and do not think that I Comes a merchant applying the sea lanes with a hole filled with goods What I have made the gods keep nor have I traveled to see the sights in your Greek towns the kingdom from which I sail has cities that are Richard by far Rich kid right it is for you that I have come it is you whom bright Venus promised for my bed You alone were the one I desire with the one desire of my heart even before you were known to me You were in my mind before I saw you with my eyes rumor first brought her to me But let it not seem odd that I'm in love from so far off with a bow so strong the arrows of love were able to find me So said the fates you must not refuse to heed their decree hear the words I tell you words that are true and faithful to them And this is where he goes a little bit into his history Late in my mother's womb slow to be born I made her body heavy with my weight In a dream she seemed to see a vision that she gave birth to a great blazing torch Terrified she awoke and told the fearsome vision from deep night to old prime who quickly told the dream to his prophets One of these sang that Ileon would be burned by flames of Paris That was my heart's torch and I tell you it is come to be My beauty and my wit though I seem to all lowborn were signs of my noble birth In the wooded valleys of Mount Ida far from foot paths and shaded by pines and home oak is a place where slow moving sheep have never grazed Nor than any goat that clambers on the cliff nor the ponderous cattle There I was resting against a tree gazing down on the walls and high roofs of the city of Dardeness that would be Troy And to see with when much to my great surprise I felt the earth shake as though many feet walked on it My words are true though hard to believe and there appeared on swift wings the grandchild of great atlas and Plioni I can see this now I may tell it the god carried a rod made of gold and then three goddesses Venus, palace and Juno which are the roman names for which regard is goddesses I forgot hera, Hera and Diana No, I was going to say, Athena, Athena, yeah, so three goddesses all showed up And they set their delicate feet on the turf, my hair stood on end I trembled in lost speech Do not fear, said the winged messenger, who'd that be, winged messenger, praise, you are the final judge of beauty End of the contentions of these three goddesses, decide which of them has such beauty that will conquer the other two He called on the name of great Jove that I might know there was no escape And then he returned through the ethereal paths to the stars My frightened heart took comfort, I became bold enough to study each one of them All were worthy, I sighed because only one could win Still, one of them pleased me more, you must have guessed It was she who causes love Every one of them wanted to win, they tried to sway my judgement with splendid gifts Loudly, Jove's wife offered roiled thrones I like that he adds loudly, I'll give you thrones His daughter pledged victory in war, how could I choose between power and a courageous heart? But, Venus smiled sweetly, Paris, do not be convinced by these Because both will bring to you worry and fear My gift for you is the gift of love and the daughter of Lita More beautiful than her mother, come into her arms So she spoke Both, with both gift and beauty approved, she the victor returned to heaven While this was happening, perhaps because fate wished to see my prosperity I was found by all the right signs to be a child of the royal house After a long time, the son returned to his right home And the house rejoiced as Troy made the day of feast As I desire you, women have desired me You can have what others have prayed for Not only the daughters of princes and lords, even nymphs have felt pangs of love Which beauty is greater than Ononi's, who I will explain as we come So remember that name, Ononi After you, there's none more proper than she to be the bride of great prime's son Alright, we're gonna stop there on his So what do we know about Paris so far?
How do you feel about this guy? It's like really into himself Like that last part? Like, is he's been talking about lots of people who liked me, but you're the one who gets to be with me Girl, I'm so cute, yeah That's not great I remember Athena and Harold Not just like you're gonna do well in war and you're gonna get thrones But like much bigger than that, like you will have all of Asia Yeah And presumably that also includes Troy, but anyway Yeah, and she... Yeah, it doesn't make sense to me why he would refuse Courage and prowess in war or the thrones of the world Because if you have the thrones of the world, pretty ladies aren't exactly hard to come by Oh, because he wants this pretty lady I don't know And that's why he's a red-blooded male He doesn't want just any woman he wants the prettiest And the prettiest was Helen, and widely renowned to be Helen And so that's what he wants, he wants one lady and he wants her And that's what he was promised And so he's sort of claiming that as he sails to see her So that's him And the rest of his is quite long, so I'm gonna skip the rest of it But we are gonna move on to Helen's Is this a response?
This is a response to his letter I think it came a little bit later, later than just that letter's arrival And I'm gonna read the whole thing of Helen's I wish I had some sort of lady to do this for me Or like a lady voice, and it seems appropriate that I wouldn't be reading both Don't do it later, please don't. I won't do it later, but you know, I'm just saying Like the production value would be better if I invited someone to read it So when you do the audio on the back end, just like kick your voice up and octave How does that sound? That would sound hilarious Yeah, I can try That's a terrifying idea Right, so yeah, was there anything that you guys are confused about? Through that one guy that you said to think about?
Okay, oh no, yeah, that's a name you have to remember That was a nymph he was referring to And the stuff with the goddesses, if you are sort of new to the whole Iliad scene I probably talked about this when I did our intro to the epics way, way back when But one of the reasons that Trojan War happened was because Paris stole Helen for her husband And he got Helen because Venus promised her to him as a prize And this was all a big, to all of that was to Resolve an argument between these three goddesses about who was the prettiest And that started a wedding because somebody had tossed in a golden apple that said for the Ferris and all three of them were like, that's clearly me, I want the apple And then they of course had to solve it And Zeus being the wise old father that he is said, I will not have this Exactly I don't want either of my daughters or my wife angry at me for all of time So I'm gonna go ahead and pawn this off on a mortal And that's what they did And he just a mortal that had a reputation for a judgment and that happened to be Paris Or only a good judgment in terms of beauty And the person who threw the apple was good judgment otherwise He had earned it because he used to have a prize bowl That he claimed couldn't be beaten by any other bowl in both fights And then Ares caught into this and was like, I saw a beach or bowl And he came down and then became a bowl and then of course trounced it because he's the god of war And then but instead of Paris had promised a golden crown to whoever could do it And they thought that as a mortal he'd be like, well it wasn't fair, you're a god I'm not gonna and you know Renegg on his offer But he didn't, he was like, you won clearly and here's your golden crown And so for that got a reputation for a good judgment, it wasn't just for beauty But okay, so this is Helen's response Since my eyes have been outraged by your letter Oh my god, there's now no glory in silence You, isn't that a great way to start? Such a good, yeah, that's okay You and Alien have broken the sacred law of hospitality So that you might trifle with a lawful wife's faithfulness Surely our shores of Tenerys gave safe landfill when you were battered by wind torn tides And though you came from another race, the doors of our royal house were not shut against you After such a welcome, your actions have become a most grave offence Did you come as a guest or enemy? I do not doubt that though my reproach is just, you have decided that it is crude Then let me be rustic I will keep my honor that my life can be lived without fault Though I do not let you see a gloomy face, nor sit with wrinkled brows My good name still remains and I live my life without guilt No secret lover brags about me So I wonder why you have such confidence in your scheme What gives you reason for hoping that you might one day share my bed Because Neptune's hero captured me with such violence must I now conclude that Since I have been stolen, it is right that I be stolen a second time by you She is there referencing an early kidnapping by Theseus Stolar when she was I think 14, really young Like her beauty was so legendary, it made heroes just be like I had to kidnap her So she's like because I've been stolen once, you think it's gonna work a second time Like is that why? Poor Helen, I know Yeah, she's had a rough life Had I been enticed I would not be blameless I refused him nothing except that I refused to give him my consent But he did not reap the crop he desired I returned untouched, except by fear Though a man with no shame, he took a little but a few kisses I could not prevent Beyond that, he got nothing of mine But you and your depravity would not be content with so little May the gods help me That man was not so evil as you Wow I was returned and untouched And his modesty reduced the guilt that should have been his The foolish young man willingly repented of his rash deed Did Theseus repent that Paris might follow in his steps So that my name remains always on men's lips But I'm not offended, would anyone become angry with a new lover?
I only hope the love you profess is real That was a big left hand turn Yes, it was Way to catch on boys You may be certain that I know my beauty is quite good reason for confidence But I must harbor my doubts because a too hasty trust will injure a woman And they say, you cannot be trusted You argue that others yield and a woman of chastity is indeed quite rare Why should I join that crowd to benefit you? If my mother seems to you to be an example And if you think that you might sway me by citing her, you are wrong Those are portions we skipped of Paris' letter Her downfall came by deception Her lover was hiding within a blurt bird's plumage That's a reference to Zeus being a goose Aswan is different than a goose Thank you. True enough, true enough Although, you will occasionally see statues and paintings of the Lita Swan thing And they're very confusing unless you know the mythology Yes, why is that lady hugging that giant swan? Swan?
Yeah It still looks like a goose knee You're a sweet siren song If I fell, I could plead no ignorance No, there would be no doubt to mask my crime In good face, she aired, she herself paid the price For what, Joe, would I say, happy fault And you go on, breaking of your dissent, your distant forebears, and your royal name, but my house glories In its nobility I say nothing of Joe, my husband's ancestors Or of P. Lop's glory, son of Tantalus, or Tindarius Tindarius, tricked by the swan, the bird she took to her breast Lita gave me Joe, as my father So I guess he was sort of siding like Check out my royal lineage, girl, and she's like, who cares, I'm the daughter of a god Now tell us the first beginnings of your race Of Phrygians, Primes, Preams, Lamadon I revere each one of them But he who is your greatest glory, and fifth from you, is first among me among my ancestors Although I do not doubt the power of Troy's regalia, ours is no less mighty For certain, if this my native land unbalanced has less riches and man than yours, yours remains A barbarous country It is true, your letter proffers gifts so find the goddesses themselves might be moved But if I cross the boundaries of honor, I will instead have done it for you Either I keep always my unstained name, or I go with you, rather than your gifts I don't reject them, gifts are welcome when their donor makes them precious I prize more your love, the love that has caused your labor, the hope that led you over the seas Is this weird you guys? She sounds like she's okay with that part She didn't seem okay at the beginning Right You know the gods are working their magic on her Yeah, she seems to be flip-flop and real hard She'll be like, you're gross and you come from a barbarous country But hey, if I go with you, it's for you not for your gifts, boy Yeah I can observe your insolent behavior, each time our tables are laid Though I pretend not to see, you gaze boldly at me and attack with eyes I hardly meet This part has some awesome details about what's going on in the house as he's guessed Oh so at this point he has arrived And he has, his overtures are being made sort of boldly known in the house Where he is guessed, which is so not okay in the Greek culture that it's shocking He's telling, has that made a lace? No, yeah, it's made a lace is like in the house Where he's, at this point I'm not sure if he's gone yet, at some point he does leave And so this might be after he is gone and so they're still at dinner And he's like, making eyes at her in front of all the servants Then it gets weirder, it's awesome Though I, yeah, you sigh and then lift the cup closest to me You drink from the same rim where I drank So he's learning by drinking out of her cupboard It's so gross Well, how often I noticed the little signs your fingers made And how often I see, I've seen your brows send almost words Messages meant for me Oh, I like this And how often I feared that my husband too, oh so he is still in the room at this point I feared that my husband too could see so that I blushed at the signals you did not conceal How often I have murmured or not even speaking have I thought He's shameless And what I said then was never false And I have seen traced on the table's flat top my name's spelled in spilled wine And they're beneath it, the two words, I love You guys, that is my favorite part He spills a little wine and then runs out of my tongue I love the hell of Paris, Paris plus hell and equals forever It's so great I don't like this She falls for this I guess I doubted this and let my face show puzzlement I have learned too well the language of expression These are the winning ways Nope How'd I, apparently this is what does it for?
It's what it takes How'd I sought to sin By which you might have turned my desire By these my heart might have been made your captive I confess the beauty of your face is without compare And any woman might with eagerness permit your embrace Let others have joy without blame Rather than let my honor pass to a stranger Learn from me And live without pretty faces Seek virtue by forsaking delight Have you ever once thought how many young men must want What you desire but are wise? Perhaps Paris only you have eyes to see But you see no more clearly than they Your boldness is more rash than theirs Your spirit is not greater It is more assured I wish now that your swift ship had come when my hand was Sought by a thousand suitors You'd have been my first if I'd seen you then So the history there is when she was available for marriage Everybody came from every part of the world because she was so cute And it was actually a really dangerous affair Because if one guy got her other people would kill to have her So he was risking his life So Odysseus suggested to her father that he extract an oath from each one of them That they would protect the couple in adversity Which meant that at least one of them had a shot To get her hand in marriage So she's saying if you were there then well then you would have been my first pick Which still seems crazy Based on these details that she is interested in Paris Seems crazy Yeah The heart once won't want to take me That's just romantic Even when he's lying in his mind He's never drew his love for her Ah yes right there's My husband will pardon what I say You are a latecomer now Tardy to joy is already taken and possessed With hope delayed you seek what another man has Even if I were your bride in Troy Never think that Menelius holds me here a reluctant and unwilling bride Do not batter my weak heart with your sweet words Do not injure one you claim to love Let me keep the place I'm given Do not shame me now by seeking my honor You claim to act out the promise of Venus That somewhere in the wilds of Ida Three goddesses appeared naked before you That the first offered a Kingly throne the second material triumphs And the third said Tindarius' daughter will be your bride It is quite hard to believe that Heaven's own would submit their beauty to your eyes But if true then for sure the rest of your tale is a made up thing When I am said to be the reward given you for your choice I do not consider my beauty so great That I should ever be the finest gift A grateful goddess could bestow I am content with knowing that my beauty is well thought of in the eyes of men If my beauty were to be praised by Venus I fear it would occasion envy And she's right Whenever there's a really pretty girl Life does not go well for them Right Venus Because one of the goddesses get jealous of the praise lavish on them by men And then they mess her up Like it's never good to be overly beautiful and in Greece And with Helen it's no different That's what happened to me So I forgot what the gods have to give me one more time One more time It's saying it's a curse you guys So are we looking at pre-curse Graham? What am I looking at right now? Can you tell?
Why do you have to ask that question? I don't know what he's like But I will make no denial I am pleased to hear the compliments you convey What? Apparently not, I don't understand that The flattery works Why should these words that I write to you deny what is desired by my mind and heart? Be not hurt that I am slow to believe you Faith should leg and think so important I am pleased if my beauty has been noticed by Venus And pleased too that you thought me the greatest prize And also that you placed first neither the honors of Juno Nor those of palace After you have been told about the great beauty Of Helen I am courage then I am a famous throne If I did not love right because he was offered those two things And she's better You know If I did not love a heart like yours I would be made of iron, but iron I am not Believe me Though I resist loving one I have decided can hardly be mine Why should I try with a plow's curved chair to turn over the wet shores And follow hopes denied to me by the place itself I am not skilled at stealing love and never I call the gods as my witnesses Have I cleverly plagued with my husband's trust As I can, excuse me As I can find these words to a speechless page This letter performs an unaccustomed task Happier those, okay so a speechless page I'm not sure there if she means like the paper is speechless Or if there's a speechless page she has in her employ And she's like I dictate to him he writes things down I'm not sure which it is But happier those who come to such deeds with ease I not knowing the ways of the world Think the byways of guilt must be hard Fear is heavy I'm confused All eyes stare at me I've good reason for this I've heard our people remember evil thoughts And Aethra brings some of this to me that must be one of our servants You either hide your love or cause it to stop But why should you stop?
You can pretend Maintain your act but maintain it in secret The absence of menalayus makes me freer now But not yet totally free His business required a far journey He had good reason for a quick departure Or so it seemed to me at the time In fact it was I when he could not decide Who said go soon but quickly return Please buy this and convince He kissed me and said See to my business and my household Care for the guest who has come to us from Troy I nearly laughed aloud I struggled with Mirth There was nothing I could say to him except the simple promise I will Though he has set his sails in a good wind Bound for Crete All things are not as you wish Though my Lord is absent Still he protects me You know what King's hands have a long reach My beauty oppresses me For as your kind praises me The more he rightly fears This delightful glory also condemns me Sometimes I wish fame had passed me by Do not wonder what that he has gone and left me here He has learned to trust my virtue My face gives him cost of fear My life calms him My virtue is his security While my beauty arouses his deepest fears You argue that opportunity tendered so freely ought not be wasted A simple husband should profit us I'm torn between desire and proper fear I've not decided I waver My Lord is gone Your sleep is lonely Beauty attracts you to me as me to you The nights are endless And we have met to speak You poor me Our compelling words and we together live beneath the same roof Let me die if all does not conspire to cause my downfall But fear still restrains me I wish that you could compel me with honor to do what you have so vialy invited You should have dismissed it once the qualms of my rootheart It can happen that profit will come to those who suffer evil I might have been forced to accept happiness Let us resist this new love A flame freshly lit dies quickly It sprinkled with just a little water A stranger's love is not dependable Let him, like him, it wanders And when it seems most sure, it is gone I call Hips a pile his witness I call them an own virgin Edwardness Both of them left to languish in wedding beds Unfaithful Paris It is said you have abandoned Ononi, whom you cherished as your wife For so many long years So there's that name again, that right till you remember? Oh, it's his wife He was married for a while first Bummer And has abandoned her in favor of Helen Yeah, that's messed up You have not denied this I have spent much time making careful inquiry of you If you tried to be a faithful lover You would fail because you are unable As I write this letter, your Phrygian sailors are outfitting your ships While you speak to me anxiously of that night you desire The winds blow that will take you away Hardly begun, you will leave pleasures still new Your love for me will go on the wind Should I come with you as you suggest And see for myself that purgumum you praised so highly? Should I wed to the grandson of Mighty Lamadon? Be sure, I would not so ignore men's published words That I would let them fly over the earth Announcing my shame to all What will Sparta, or what would all of Achaia And the people of Asia, your Troy, say How would Prime and his wife and your crowd of brothers With Dardanian wives see me?
And you, how might you hope that I be unfaithful? Unaffected by your example? Oh, how might you hope that I be faithful? Unaffected by your example, right?
If you're unfaithful, how do you expect me to be? As every alien ship is breached in aliens' harbors, you would be plagued by fear How often your field will prompt anger to say, adulterous, forgetting your charge against me Is also against you You will be the judge and the cause of my fault Because you have led me to sin I pray before something so awful occurs May earth be shoveled over my face Alright, there's a few pages left here So I don't think I'm gonna read the rest of it Just because I think you guys get the idea So how do you feel about Helen after all this? That's a hard one because the letter started off really well Right, but now it's like, oh So you know that point is still fighting I like that line of we can smell like a little new flame We'll die if you sprinkle a little water on it Yeah, but we know what happens I'm wondering how we go from that to her Eventually deciding to go with Paris Or I don't know if it's in that letter Where she gets there Well, here's the end of the letter I'll read it to you I will yield and surrender to you You ask, I think not in that full sense You ask that we discuss these things secretly Meeting face to face I understand quite well What it is that you desire And what you intend by having speech with me But you are too rushed The harvest is still green Perhaps delay will befriend desire Enough of this Let the written words that share my heart's secret Cease their hidden task My hand is tired What remains for words can be said Through my loyal companions Climony and Aethra So it just sort of like poops out there at the end It seems like she started writing With the fixed thought of telling him to buzz off And then But Did it herself right As she wrote, she's eventually like Well, I'll hear you out Yeah You said some nice things You were kind of a doofus at dinner But she liked him being a doofus So You drank from my cup So gross Anyway He's still my heart She's being attention to her Yeah That's like Paris Yeah, it's referenced strangely She talks about it in the Iliad As though Venus stole her wits away Like they blinded her to what was really going on And they made her stupid And she made a really dumb choice And did a really dumb thing But then even at the same time Paris would be like Oh, that's really rough, girl Let's smooch And she'd be like Okey-dokey And so it's not like she has Fully come out of it, you know Right And I think that beyond that If he wondered, he was going to take her one way or the other But it's implied that she did go willingly, eventually Yeah Because, yeah, I mean, that's changed her mind, right Do you think, Ovid's doing that Do you think those changes that we see in the letter God's changing her mind? Or do you think if he did that, he would make it a little more obvious No, I think this is just a really masterful portrayal of a woman's heart Who is conflicted And wants to tell this new guy to buzz off And be faithful to her husband But it's torn by a lot of desire And she's wondering what the people are going to think She's wondering how they are You know, when you are both getting together with Infidelity I've heard a phrase that You can only despise one another And we see that play out in the Iliad Like they are not friendly She hates him And he just sort of thinks of her as like a beautiful play toy And it's, you know, they just don't like each other that much It's probably one of these things Where like the longer you stay The longer you sort of entertain the idea Even under the guise of Here are all the 10 ways Why we're not going to do this And then like goes through all the number one Even though you're handsome Blah, blah, blah, blah, blah Number two, even though you said those really nice things And let's say what they were again You know, like the longer you're still You're still pretty handsome And the longer you entertain the idea, the more the less The more purchase it has The more purchase it has The more you sort of inoculate yourself against the badness of it That's what is happening in the letter Maybe, as she keeps sort of going through it And she's like recounting everything She's like, that was kind of sweet That you did that That was kind of sweet, you did that But didn't know And then Hey, don't, hey, don't Hey, what would they say?
What would it really be like? I'm serious, but what would actually be like? Exactly, the second thing Yeah So she does go And they get together And it's the cause of the entire Trojan War For listeners who don't know the history And eventually There's just two letters, but we have another one But we have two Oh, it's not This one actually happens earlier Oh cool And this is not from the two of them It's from Ononi Oh, really? Oh, yeah So this is from the abandoned nymph That lived as Paris' wife For so long I'm telling you guys These are like heart-breaking letters Abandoned nymph That's a new band name right there Okay, great And her history is especially tragic And I will tell you what becomes of her After I read a little bit of the letter Because we're running short on time So I'm not going to go too far into this I think you'll get the tone pretty quickly Okay Will you read?
Does your new wife forbid? Read on No, my cinean has written this Rather, oh, no, any of the fountain nymph Well known in the Phrygian woods writes these words And complains of the way you My very own, if only you will permit Treat her What God opposes my desires Is there some guilt that will not let me be your own? If one must suffer One should suffer calmly But undeserved pain is much more sad You were a nobody when you married me I was the daughter of a great stream You are one of the sons of Priam now But then with all respect You were a slave And you were held captive And I was a nymph But I was content to marry you Right, and this is before they knew he was royal Right, he lived like I said Raised by a farmer, suckled by a bear And this at this point is when she decided To get together with him And that like to have an immortal nymph Mary immortal was a step in itself So he finds out that he's the son of Priam Like because of the stuff with the gods Like or he finds it out after He I think he found it out prior Okay I could I could be wrong on when that judgment happened I think he found it out Like the judgment happened after he found out He was a son of the royal line Yeah, okay Because that happened with a bullfight He was supposed to bring a bull as a prize To the greatest competitor And so he was like I don't want to lose my prize bull Because they ordered it to be his And so he went and competed And he was so good at sports Everyone was like He's got to be royal, huh? And then they found out that he really really was Okay, cool Yeah With our flocks We took our rest beneath the trees On couches of fallen leaves and grass Often we laid together on hay or straw In a hut that kept the frost away Who led you into the mountain ranges Where your quarry was hiding Who showed you the den Where the wild beasts hide her newborn cubs Many times I have hunted with you I have helped you place the hunter's wide mesh nets Many times I led the swift hounds Over the ridges and cliffs After wild game You carved my name on beach trees And I can read there Oh anoni Product of your hand As those trees grow The words likewise grow Grow high and straight So that everyone will know my name And the honor that is mine May that poplar growing Decide a stream live on With lines carved by your eager hand If Paris rejects Oh anoni and still lives Let the Xanthos flow back to its spring Xanthos Hurry backward That was a stream nearby You must turn waters Flow back to the springs from which you came Oh anoni has been spurned But Paris still breathes The Xanthos must turn back to its source My doom began this awful storm Of changed love When Venus and Juno and unarmed Minerva Though she has more beautiful armed Came to ask you That you judge their beauty Choosing one you lost the other two My heart raced and a chill tore My cold bones when you told me this story I sought advice I was afraid From the old and wise All agreed of my fears There could be no doubt It was clear some evil threatened me Furs were cut and hewn A new fleet was ready And ships were launched on the deep blue waves Your tears fell when you left Not deny them Victims of grief We we wept together Your arms held me closer Than the clinging of mine Holds the elm The wind was right But you insisted that it was not Your comrade smiled And your return to kiss me again It seemed that your tongue could never say farewell A light breeze rippled the idle sails On the rigid mast The oars made the sea white My eyes followed your departing ship And my tears fell down from my cheeks To the dry sand I prayed that you might return swiftly And I begged the daughters of nirious to her you It would be my ruin I knew the prayer could accomplish your return But instead my prayers Helped arrival A great rock looks down on the ocean The waves break at its base It is a mountain From its peak I was the first to see your sails My first desire was to rush to you Patient I waited And soon I saw something purple in the bow I was worried You had never worn such a color before The breeze quickened The ship came to shore My heart shivered when I saw a woman's face This was not enough Why did I stay?
I must have been mad You held her in your arms I tore the clothes away from my breasts And beat my hands against my flesh My long nails tore my tears stained cheeks And my cries filled idis holy land With their sad lament I took my grief to the barren rocks So may Helen grieve And so may she lament when she is deserted By her love The pain I endured was brought by her And she should suffer then As I suffer now It seems your taste has turned to women Who leave husbands To follow you on the sea By all When you were only a poor shepherd You were content with no one but me Your wife I'm not impressed by your wealth Nor am I touched by the thought of your great palace Nor by the least desire To become one of the many wives of primes Prime could not scorn an emphasis on his wife And proud hecuba Would hardly need to hide her relationship with me I'm worthy of becoming And I wish to be the wife of a powerful man My hands would be a septor's ornament Do not scorn me Because we lay on a beach on beach bows I should have a purple marriage bed My love will not injure you It brings no ships to punish you It conceives no wars And I think that's where we should end it That's awesome That did end up in a war Isn't that just like Tar-breaking Golly, it's heart-wrenching And the worst part is that She was devastated by him Leaving her absolutely crushed And but she was really good At the healing arts of herbs And so when he was shot by the arrow of Philoctides Who was the guy that eventually killed him He got hit by this arrow and he was morally wounded And he knew of one person That had the arts to help him And he went back to Owenoni To ask for his life And he went up and she said Screw you, pal And like told him to get lost And then he turned and tried to make it back to the city And then died on the lower slopes of Mount Ida And then she ran and found him And like wept her Because she regretted it After she told him to buzz off And so she was like I can help him And so she ran and she found him already dead And then at his funeral Unlike his burning funeral pyre She in grief threw herself on top of the fire This is one of the most tragic stories She is one of those characters in myth That just breaks my heart every time I think about her It's her and Calypso That are the two that I just have such a hard time dealing with Poor Owenoni Like she didn't do anything wrong She was beautiful She was a nymph She was faithful And then her husband just left her Because of the meddling of the gods And it is just heartbreaking Is she referenced in the alien? No, I don't think she is referenced in the alien So you don't get that story there You have to get it from outside But I think that maybe the best way To read the heroities Is to read other books And then in the midst of other books Go and read portions of the heroities Just to make it really personal Like if you read that bit When he lands on the shores of Troy with Helen Oh my gosh It's so heart-wrenching Or then the moments you've come back from college And thanksgiving And your high school sweetheart's got somebody new Brace your heart Yeah, it's just so rough And the worst is that she didn't know He was leaving to go get Helen Like oh my word And then she said yeah He wouldn't say goodbye He just left But not what it said Or it seemed that he couldn't say forever Meaning he wanted to stay Like he just didn't want to say goodbye And then he went and got another lady And so that's how I recommend you read these Is figure out where they could kind of slot into the stories And then if you're ever reading those stories You can toss these in Which is I think what I plan on doing with The Metamorphoses when I read it Is just when I hit those stories I'm going to read them Their ownities And kind of supplement like that That's cool Yeah, anyway I thought I'd introduce it to you If you want to read like some cool love notes From old mythological people This is a great place to start My heart is sad Yeah, we got a lot of stuff wrong Do you want to pull some of them up? Yeah, do you have any of them in front of me? I don't have a timer in front of me Do you want me?
I got a computer in my second Do you remember the things that we've gotten wrong recently? Oh, we probably got the name of the yellow book wrong From Dorian Gray Apparently That is an email I remember Um That's our password Everybody podcasting Um Yellow book correction Yeah, maybe you got it there I'm trying to Wild was actually baptized Anglican So Thank you very to us all So some score Point 1 Anglicans Got it Got it Yep I don't remember Oh Modlin Oh yeah We pronounce British things Totally wrong Yeah That is a recurring theme at this point That would pronounce British things But what do we say? We probably said Maglin Yeah, that sounds right See if it's pronounced Modlin Don't put a G in it Brits Um There's something from a DM on Twitter No, that was the same one about Modlin Wow, there's so many of these Um No, all the other emails just say we're perfect Oh, that's not great All right Good for us Yeah, Modlin Um And um There's probably more Sorry I'm just playing these now Oh, Tames Apparently calling the River the River wrong What do I call it? The Thames It's Thames I call it the Thames I call it the Thames That's probably what it is I've put a long A on it Uh Gl- a G-L-O-U-C-E-S-T-R We talked about this one Gloucester Gloucester What did I pronounce?
Gloucester not Gloucester Gloucester Gloucester Gloucester Oh Gloucester versus Gloucester Thames not Thames Uh Yeah, anyway Flag Gloucester Yep, sounds about right And all the other emails Are just pure praise Well, perfect Okay, good, problem solved All right This has been classical stuff You should know You can find us online At classicalstuff.net You can find us on twitter At Cli-C-L-S-S-C-A-L Stuff You can email us at classicalstuffatveritasacademy.net And we've already told you The classical stuff we got wrong So this has been Another episode of classical stuff This is Graham, A.J. and Thomas Signing off Bye