#90 Paradox as Praxis: Johannes (Yogi) Jaeger & Marcus Neustetter on Art, Science and The ZoNE

Send a love messageAndrea, Yogi and Marcus are forming Paradoxis. This is one of the conversations towards that, a Third Space episode of Love & Philosoph. Philosopher Andrea Hiott sits down with artist and facilitator Marcus Neustetter and biologist-philosopher Johannes "Yogi" Jaeger for a wide-ranging conversation about working in the space between art and science. The two have collaborated for about six years as part of The ZoNE, a transdisciplinary collective they run in Vienna alongside artist Bronwyn Lace and curator Başak Şenova.Marcus and Yogi introduce each other, then talk through how their collaboration actually works: not illustration-for-hire, but a genuine co-production where a text and a drawing "wrap themselves around each other" into something neither could have made alone. From there the conversation moves through constraints and "staying alive," productive tension, performance and vulnerability, the trickster, space and context, institutions and gatekeeping, conflict and tolerance, and finally care and love.The episode also introduces the paradox project (referred to in the audio as "Paradoxis"), a shared piece of writing on treating paradox as a practice and performance, and the idea of building offline "circles of trust," a concept Andrea draws from her earlier conversation with Parker Palmer.Read PARADOXIS here.Watch the ZoNE talks here.Link to Zone talks Andrea mentions on the Zone channel with one of her favorite philosophers. And the one with Julian Gough on Egg and Rock.Topics coveredHow Marcus and Yogi met and why they were both looking for a "third space" between art and scienceThe Perspective Studio methodology and collective co-creationConstraints, co-construction and "staying alive" as an organizing principle drawn from evolutionary biologyProductive tension vs. problem-solving; adaptation over optimizationFinite games vs. infinite play, and "serious play"Performance, persona, authenticity and vulnerabilityThe trickster figure and the danger of putting narcissists "in charge"Space, context and embodiment (including a 10-second listening exercise)Institutions, gatekeeping, decolonizing spaces, and the "plastic mushroom in the Pompidou"Conflict, tolerance, "overlapping consensus" and "coherence from difference"Care, love, and the shadow — seeing "the person behind the persona"People, projects and references mentionedLove & Philosophy — Andrea Hiott's podcast and SubstackThe ZoNE — the art/science collective (Lace, Neustetter, Jaeger, Şenova); see also the Makers page and Actions/notation logThe emerging book Beyond the Age of Machines / Expanding Possibilities — the manifesto and chapters referenced throughout, published chapter by chapterPerspective Studio — the workshop/facilitation methodologyAndrea Hiott's Holding Paradox and her Embracing Paradox guideAndrea talking with Parker Palmer — "circles of trust"James Carse — Finite and Infinite GamesHanzi Freinacht — "serious/existential play"Tyson Yunkaporta — Sand Talk (the trickster)Ludwig Wittgenstein — "whereof we cannot speak…"Plato — the allegory of the caveMichael Schmidt-Salomon — the paradox of toleranceJohn Rawls — "overlapping consensus"Carl Sagan — the gas-giant "blobs" thought experimentPatricia Martin — Will the Future Like You?Declan Donnellan and Sophie Fiennes — on performance and theatre (episodes Andrea mentions are forthcoming)Anathi Konjwa and Micca Manganye — performers in Marcus's Johannesburg short-film anecdoteSteven Hobbs — Marcus's longtime South African collaboratorSupport the showBuy Holding Paradox: The Navigational Approach to Mind and Consciousness by Andrea HiottSign up for Making Ways newsletter and projects.Please rate and review with love. YouTube, Facebook, Instagram, Substack.