95: Discipline

Hi, and welcome to Classical Stuff You Should Know. There are three of us on this podcast, three grown human beings. My name is A.J. Hanenberg, and I'm joined by Thomas Magby.

Hello. And Graham Donaldson. I, too, am a grown human being. Is it like as opposed to babies, like no infants on this podcast?

And we were going to do a full episode, but I was all like, you know, like, whatever. We don't have to. And so, we don't have to. That's just what we usually do, but we don't really like it.

I mean, I'm getting tired. Yeah, it's kind of late. I really just sort of don't want to. So, if only there was a thing that could keep me going.

So, yeah, today we are talking about discipline. So, in some way, I'm loving our order of podcasts right now. So, to start with, so Graham, two episodes ago, talked about Brave New World. A.J., last episode, talked about the praise of folly or in praise of folly.

I hope some of you guys have been signing your receipts all goofy. Yeah, it's been weeks since that. Yeah. Send us emails with all the funny things you've done in the last week, please.

I got punched in the face because I said no. But, so I guess we kind of ended with some open questions as to whether we were classical heretics by praising folly or if we'd done a good thing in that. So, I guess by us talking about discipline, this is like the corrective to talking about folly last time. I mean, when we were doing the podcast, the bust of Aristotle fell off of the shelf and shattered on the ground.

And I could feel the spirits of classical paragons who've gone before us rush out of the room. Was it as bad as when I implied that you don't need to learn Latin because translations, English translations are just as good? I blocked that out. I don't know Latin.

Hanenberg doesn't really know Latin. None of us know Greek or Latin. Allistique Caflutio. What does that mean?

I just make up stuff. Wingardium Leviosa. Oh, okay. We talked about our patronuses, right?

Yes, we did. What was mine, a beagle? Something like that? That sounds right.

Mine was a little tiny field mouse. I was real upset. Why? You wanted a bigger one?

Yeah, I wanted a little, I don't know. Well, I like mountain goats. I wanted a warthog. Something like that.

Those guys caused a lot of problems. Cool, so does Donald. Speaking of problems, let's talk about solutions to problems like discipline. Okay, so...

Hi, AJ. Okay, so... Sorry. No, you're good.

So when I use the word discipline, so eventually we'll get to a Latin word because... So I forget the exact quote, but I loved the thing from Praise of Folly that the waste of time is to define four ancient words and just expound on them. So, you know, I've had it down to two. I was gonna say, watch me expound.

And the people who are learning in Latin are sitting out there listening going, well, yes, indeed, I understand. And all the non-learned are going like, oh, he's so smart. Yeah, people who actually know Latin will always correct me in my pronunciation, so I'm now realizing I probably should look this stuff up. But one of the words is...

I guess I'm just gonna go anyway, whatever. I can't look up pronunciation now. Disciplina is the word that we're working from, so you can tell that it's really just the word discipline because it's very similar to the word discipline. But when I say the word discipline, what is a...

like what... what is the meaning of discipline? What comes to mind when you hear that word? The montage of Rocky training in the snowy tundra, lifting logs, getting ready to beat...

What's his name? Drago. Drago. Drago...

Drago Malfoy. No, that's not it. Ivan Drago. Ivan Drago.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, so, uh, training montage. So, you know, that's some sort of goal and working toward that goal. And he is eating a certain way.

He's exercising a certain way. He's beating rocks. Beating rocks. Just loves those rocks.

And he's just, like, totally focused on that one goal. That's right, yeah. An ordered existence that has goals in mind. I like that.

Okay, so we kind of spoke against order, I would say, in the last episode. So maybe we would be fair to associate discipline with the rational part of us. So, faculty of reason. So...

You think through the goal that you want or the ending that you want. You work your way backwards and you say, what do I need to do in order to get that? Oh, I don't really want to do those things, but I will discipline myself in order to do those things so that the thing can be accomplished. I think that's a very rational process.

So, good. Anything else on discipline? So, when we are defining discipline, we are talking about it in a very individualistic way. We're saying, my discipline...

Again, Rocky is one person. I guess he has his coach. Anyway. Or he has Adrian.

Get him hard, Rocky! Burgess Meredith. Yeah, we talked about it. How many times have we talked about Rocky?

I feel like a lot, but not enough. Yeah, listener, please write in and tell us. My brother-in-law's never seen Rocky. Your brother-in-law needs to see Rocky.

The first one's real weird. It's real different than the rest of the Rockies. Like, the rest of the Rockies turn into sort of the franchising thing. Well, they were money pits.

Yeah. The first Rocky was not so much of a money pit. That's kind of like the magic of it, is low budget, like, wasn't supposed to be successful. I want to say...

But he grew up to end the communist revolution. Eventually. Like, Stallone was the one, like, choreographing that final boxing match at the end of the first one. And he has no idea what he's doing.

Anyway, it's just a really cool story. Discipline. So we're talking about, like, the individual has a goal in mind and so to go after that goal to do whatever it takes. And Graham was just talking about, it's also...

Sometimes it involves you doing what you wouldn't want to do. But discipline kind of has, at the end of it, some sort of, like... I guess I'll say this, tell me if you disagree. There's some sort of, like, personal excellence at the end of discipline.

Like, there's some thing you're working toward in discipline that you're denying yourself things to get something at the end. I don't want to push back or disagree on that. I don't think so, no. So this is not entirely in line with a classical conception of these two ideas, of discipline and then I'll introduce a second word in a second.

So I'll be reading a series of quotes from Soldiers and Ghosts, A History of Battle in Classical Antiquity by J.E. Lendon. So I'll read you a story in a second. So the old stories of the Romans then are not just a rumination on their aggressive, competitive military ethos, but also a way of worrying at the tension between that ethos and another fundamental Roman military value, disciplina.

So when we are talking about, like, a personal excellence, a personal thing that we're working toward, a better... Not a better, a different word to apply that would be, we would call it virtue now. I believe correctly pronounced in Latin, it's virtus, but it looks like virtus, V-I-R-T-U-S. It looks like virtue, but virtus or virtus.

What is virtue? What is virtus? Do these words mean anything to you all? Excellence.

So the one I'm more familiar with is, like, the Greek arete, which means the excellence of something. And it doesn't necessarily have to be moral excellence. It has to do with, like, performing its function. So if things have functions, things have teloses, or things have reasons, and when something is performing its function, you say that it has arete.

Or I'm assuming it's used to say you have virtue. I don't know why, but closely in my mind, associated with these two ideas, excellence and virtue, is purity. It's something untainted, right? Where if something is virtuous, it is untainted.

So if that is a pure chair, or if that chair is a tainted chair, it's wobbly, it's uncomfortable. Yeah, it's not fulfilling what it's supposed to be doing, which is be a comfy chair. Yeah, that's good. So then, so these two, so one conception then is, so virtus, virtus is personal excellence.

I think it's very helpful to point out that's not only a moral excellence of any type of excellence. So this is good. Okay, so that is in opposition then, not opposition, well, actually it is. Let me read you a story that will get at this distinction between the two.

Yay, story time. Story time with Magby. Yeah, you gotta practice. You're a father now.

Okay, yes, I am. And I'm gonna absolutely read this story, so get excited as I read this story, which I'll definitely read in my three-week-old. Okay. There is a detail in the account of Valerius and the raven that the modern eye can easily pass over, but that no Roman would ever miss.

Before Valerius went forth to fight the Gaul, the young hero scrupulously asked the permission of Both is a piece of wood. And so it needs both. There's like the reduction and the putting together of the chair. And so it needs both.

Like the components of the chair need to be excellent for it to be an excellent chair, but it also needs to be put together in the right way. But in the soul of a man, it seems like you need the discipline before you can have the virtue. I can know what courage is. I can recognize it and point to it in action.

I know I don't have it myself. Yep. So this is a better analogy to draw. So with courage, I don't think you can make a broad statement about everyone to say that everyone has an excess of cowardice and therefore they need to be spurred on.

Because I would say that you need the virtues. I think there are some people who are born with the instinct to run headlong into combat, I use the term metaphorically, into fights, into combat, into difficulty. And what they need then is the disciplina to curb that instinct. Yeah, because they're rash.

Yes, but I think that people are different in that way. So some people will start with an excess of the instinct. They need to be curved. Some people will need to be spurred on to action.

So the sparking or the spurning comes from those who are deficient. The curbing comes from those who are in excess. Yes, so there's a tension between these two, but both are ultimately necessary. You can't have a group of overly rash people, you'll lose.

Again, these original conceptions of virtue and discipline are founded in combat. And so a town, a polis that has only rash people who are in their wars, they're going to lose that war. A town that only has timid people is going to lose that war also. There are problems and errors on both sides.

That's the only point to start with. Do you think virtue is the spur? So in this instance, if I was cowardly, moving towards bravery would be virtue. Yes.

So bravery itself is not the virtue. Where do we draw that distinction? That's interesting. So if the courage is the mean between cowardice and foolhardiness...

What would you call courage if you wouldn't call it virtue? Courage is virtue. Okay, so then courage is the excellent point between... I'm saying that if you are, depending on what side of excess you are too close to, you either need a spurring or you need a curbing.

But the spurring, if we're using the same word for the spurring and having the thing itself... That's fair. Doesn't that cause a problem? Well, the spurring is an example of virtue.

So the spurring is one token of virtue, but the actual type of virtue which you're trying to be is brave. Yes. So if I'm cowardly, I need to figure out ways... I need to find ways that I can be brave.

So I need to practice the virtue of bravery. And I'm doing individual... But you wouldn't call that discipline. Yeah, that's what I think.

I would say that you wouldn't call that discipline. So discipline yourself to do it. You can flip the word on its head too. If I'm not spurring myself, but rather I'm curbing my laziness or curbing my cowardice, doesn't that bring it into discipline rather than virtue?

I don't think there's like... Laziness is a lack of action. I would not call it the presence of inaction. So all I'm saying is that, again, so if you start with the concept of virtue is a mean between two excesses, there's a different solution depending on what side of the excess that you're on.

One side, you need to do more action. And one is you need to do less or redirect that action or energy, whatever. I'm totally with you. Laziness is just using the same word for both.

So I guess that's why I'm adding a Latin word to make it better. No, so... To give it credibility. No, like, part of this is a...

What we call discipline, yes, is like... is different than what is meant by disciplina here. That's what I'm saying. So disciplina in an ancient conception, in this Roman conception, is curbing.

Okay. The way we talk about it now is different because, like, I can be disciplined... Like harnessing willpower. Yeah, my discipline...

Like, I can discipline myself to be more assertive in conversations. And, like, that would technically be a spurring, not a curbing. Not a curbing, okay. So...

You'd be curbing your timidity. Yeah. But, again, I don't think timidity is a thing. Like, timidity is a lack of courage.

Right. So that's all I'm saying. I'm on board. Yeah.

So this is a language thing. So two conceptions. So that's a translation thing. It is a translation thing.

And obviously translating metaphorically... Sorry, English teachers... Discipline versus virtue. No, this is perfect.

No, this has been really helpful. Okay, so... So there is some virtue that we're going after. We either have a lack of the material of that virtue or an excess of the material of that virtue.

And either side is a problem. And so we're looking for a mean. I guess the place we'll get to is... I feel like we spent the last hour talking about how we want appetites to run rampant.

Not rampant, well, kind of. We want our attitudes to pull us in certain places. We want our appetites to, like, draw us somewhere. And we said that we kind of don't want a discipline.

We don't want a curbing. That's overstating it. We were talking about that the appetites can have a corrective... A course corrective ability on something that's grown stagnant.

I think you could even say that that foolhardiness would be a spurring. Interesting. Or is the folly somehow a virtue? Like, is it halfway?

When we talked about this last week, is it halfway between Cato and... Kanye. I was going to say Marmaduke. But someone who's just always a fool.

Yeah. Maybe let's take it a different way. Kanye, don't take that to heart. I know you're listening.

I'm sorry, man. You're listening. No, that was majestic. Take it easy.

That's the worst. I hate this so much. Okay, so maybe I'll take it... Let's take it...

So we've brought up Cato a few times. Not smiling, not being like a cheerful fellow. If you don't know who Cato is, you may know who the Muppets are. You know who the Muppets are?

That eagle? The bald, the blue eagle? That's Cato. Yeah, great.

Maybe I'll phrase it this way. Is it good to live a disciplined life? Yes. Yeah.

Why? Because it's necessary for virtue. Because you're always shooting out all over the place and you've got to shut that down. Like, why?

Because nature needs to be... Nature needs to be curbed and molded. This is why God didn't grow... We weren't planted in a jungle.

We were planted in a garden. So nature has its ways that do need to be mixed with the spirit of man. Do need to be mixed with... So man is a rational animal.

So we are animalistic. And then we also are angelic with our reason. So discipline is necessary in order to curb the wildness. What isn't there...

I got a lot of wildness. We want that wildness, don't we? Like, maybe that was the theme... Maybe that's the theme of the last episode.

But there's something... There's something good in the wildness. I guess, let me take it this way. Let's say...

I mean, this is Romanticism, right? Like, this is... Romanticism was coming in saying, like, Oh my goodness, you don't live in a clock. Like, we've got passions and these things are part of the human existence, the human experience.

We've got to deal with these things. We've got to, like, enjoy these things. But there's a difference between mirth and carousing. Yeah.

Mirth would be a little bit of folly. Carousing would be foolhardiness. I'm going to take it from the side of discipline. So let's take...

Let's say I came to you all and I was like, Guys, I'm going to start running. I'm going to run every day. I'm going to run, you know. First week, I'm going to do 30 minutes.

And then the week after, I'm like, I'm going to run an hour. And, like, so I'm running. You know, I'm really consistent in running. I'm running, running, running.

But, like, I hate it. But I do it every day. So I'm really committed to running. I get healthier.

I'm looking better. But, like, I hate running. But I keep doing it because the results are really good. So do your knees.

Sure. Yeah. And then let's say after that, I'm like, Well, you know, running is good, but I also am going to, like, eat really healthy. And by eating healthy, I mean, I'm going to eat or drink that Soylent stuff every day.

Isn't it called Soylent? It's called Soylent. Yeah. It's not that slime stuff.

Oh, I'm pretty sure it's... That's one green. I'm sure it's still people. But, yeah, so, you know, there's that...

Tastes like people. What? Why do you know? How would you know?

Graham the cannibal. Next week, cannibalism. Let's talk about classical cannibalism. This is kind of a cool episode.

And then, you know, so I do this for... I do my workout for a month. And then month two, I'm like... I bit my associated with this Roman discipline is sternness.

And I think that's easy for us to dismiss and say, but there's a certain benefit to being focused, to being determined, to having ambition and going after that ambition. I mean, the Romans aren't known for their comedies. This is good. This is good.

Right. So there are Roman heroes. Exactly. But there are still heroes in the culture that are honored, but they're stern, but they're frugal, but they are faithful.

And what is Cato in Dante? What is he in charge of? He's the first person in purgatory. He's the one that welcomes you to purgatory.

Oh, really? Cato. Yeah, so there is. Was he a Christian?

No. Then if he's not a believer, he can't be in purgatory. Oh, no, it's not true. He's there.

Yeah, I forget how many of the purgatory. And Tiberius is in. That sounds right. Tiberius is like the really good king who was like real nice and gave someone his cloak.

He made it to purgatory. There are very few, though. But the point is that Cato made it, even though Cato is a man of no humor. I don't know if Dante was a particularly happy guy.

Looking at the way he calls a comedy. Am I right? Thanks. That was really funny.

So why am I harping on this discipline thing over and over again? There is a line I've talked before how I very much love self-help and pop psychology and stuff like that. There's a line of thinking that says discipline in and of itself is a good thing. This is probably most clearly articulated by Jocko Willink.

If you've ever heard discipline equals freedom is one of his mantras and then also the name of one of his books. There's a line of thinking that says discipline in and of itself is a good thing. And if you were to just read ancient Roman stuff, especially military accounts, you would see that agreed with. You would see discipline as a thing praised in and of itself.

The curving of the things that you want. Again, a life that is centered around, again, being stern or serious, being faithful and being frugal. You'll find those things being praised, but I think they are insufficient, insufficient goods in and of themselves. So this discipline needs to be balanced out with excellence.

There's a both a curb and a spur, and both are necessary to a full and good life. So I guess that's like the first big point. The second, I guess, as we move into the second half, this will be from Peter Brown's Augustine of Hippo, a biography, which is really, really good. I'm sure we've talked before how every summer there's a reading bingo list put out by the school.

And this year, the four. There are lots of things to talk about. So the school has four houses that all students in the high school and all core teachers are placed into as a part of being at the school. Those houses was the house that won.

I'm trying to remember which won last year. I think I'm pretty sure. Yeah, it was. It was Francis.

Was it? Wait. And then the dean of House Francis is an inspiring guy. Yeah, he was like waving a flag.

Yeah. Crazy person. Yeah. Folly.

But Dean Donaldson of House Francis. So, yeah, we have four houses. Those four houses are Augustine, Bonhoeffer, Francis and Mueller. Graham is the dean of the house of Francis.

AJ is the dean of the house of Mueller. Indeed. So all those preface to four. Some of the books on the bingo list this year are books related to those four house namesakes.

So the Eric Metaxas Bonhoeffer book is one of them. George Mueller's autobiography is on there. The C.S. Lewis book on Francis is on there.

And then Peter Brown's Augustine of Hippo, which is the one I'll be quoting from in just a little bit, are all on there. This has kind of been part of my reading project of mine is to go through those four books at some point. We will talk through those four people. Bonhoeffer is kind of on the edge in terms of classical people, but they're all really cool guys.

Okay. So what is all this preface to? This is to give some context to what Augustine is talking about when I read you this next quote. So this is a chapter in the Peter Brown book is titled Disciplina.

Graham currently has a close hand on his lips. No. So we talked about heresies a while ago. Augustine's life is essentially defined by his encounters with different heresies.

He very early on in life was taken with the Manichean way of life or the Manichean way of thought. And so he himself was kind of a heretic starting off. So much of his life will be in relation to the Donatists. Donatists were people that said that priests had to be perfect to give sacraments.

If they be perfect in this really specific way of having not given their Bibles over when their town was taken over. Anyway, it's a heresy is the main point. So Augustine will the Donatists will be run up. That's the only reason I say that.

Okay. So first, the first thing being raised with discipline is whether it's a good thing in and of itself. And so I think the answer to that is no. Discipline is balanced by this spurring that some people need a spurring towards certain moral excellencies.

Some people need the curbing. The discipline must be paired with a virtue. A life of only discipline is like an externally successful life, but probably a miserable life. That's point number one.

But then Augustine will go further and redefine this term of discipline. Well, launch off from there. So some Donatists start getting persecuted and Augustine is like happy about it. So there's that.

Augustine had become convinced that men needed such firm handling. So it needed to be needed some form of like suffering. He summed up his attitude in one word, disciplina. He thought of this disciplina, not as many of his more traditional Roman contemporaries did, as the static preservation of a Roman way of life.

For him, it was an essentially active process of corrective punishment, a softening up process, a teaching by inconveniences. In the Old Testament, God had taught his wayward chosen people that just such a process of disciplina, checking and punishing their evil tendencies by a whole series of divinely ordained disasters. The persecution of the Donatists was another controlled catastrophe imposed by God, mediated on this occasion by the laws of Christian emperors. In Augustine's mind, it was no more than a special instance of the relationship of the human race as a whole to its stern father, who would with the son he receives, and indiscriminately enough at that, like the man who beat his...

Yeah, anyway. Okay, so what is happening to the Donatists? They are being punished for the purpose of softening them up and teaching them by inconveniences. That is his conception of this discipline.

So even our English word discipline has these meanings in it. There's the discipline we impose on ourselves, focused on a goal, but there's also the discipline that we, as teachers, are required to do with students or that a parent has to do with a child. Yeah, you've got to discipline them. So we have both of those conceptions in the word discipline.

Okay, so discipline is a bad thing that happens to us in order to teach us something. So then I'm wondering how this... Does this have anything to say to, again, in praise of folly? Does this have anything to say to Erasmus?

I end the last episode wondering, like, it sounds like we should live a life that's only the good stuff. Like, we're driven by our appetites, and those appetites pull us toward things that we want. And that sounds like a life of no problems. That sounds like a life just of getting things that I want.

But then two podcasts ago, we talked about a world where that was catered to. Perfect. And then what is that world? You guys, it's all coming together.

I'm so excited about it. It's all coming together, expert. Okay, so... Inception.

Thanks. The here impersonation was wonderful. Thank you. Please make that your ringtone.

Are you still doing it? No, no, no. Oh, I'm well aware. Oh, okay.

So, yeah. Is a world without discipline good? And the answer in Brave New World is... No.

You agree with that? Heavens no. I do agree with that. Where everything comes to you easy, where you get the reward without the effort, there's just something in our nature that is dissatisfied with the reward.

But then there's also the experience of people who put in tremendous amount of discipline and get the reward. Like the quarterback who wins the NFL and then says, like, what am I doing with my life? Yes. Or gets depressed after winning because they're like, I hit my peak and I'm not happy.

Well, I guess I do envy that person. I don't envy that person. Maybe you all. But I think a world...

This is going to be a... Stick with me. I think a world of only discipline ends in tyranny. Yes.

And that's judging from roomfuls of children who are not governed. Right? If they want something, they are going to go for it. And the one who wants the most is going to go for it until he rules everyone else.

And then you're going to have a tyrant. Right? In a world of only discipline and only curving and no virtue, that's what you get. This is great.

So this is one of the exact points of it that I don't think discipline in and of The boundaries of, you know, God's kingdom had been set by God, and we don't have to make them. And there's not a great unknown or just death or blackness at the end of it, that there is, but there's life and health and peace with him. So, you're right, it's the tension of the two. Chesterton talks about this too, that the church provides certain tensions that keep life where it should be, right?

The true Christian, this is convicting because I'm not this way, but the Christianity will end in a person who is diligent yet carefree. Carefree is probably the most apt way to talk about this. If you trust all things to God, you literally have no cares. And your ambitions are ambitions because you simply enjoy them, not because you are discontent with where you are.

And yet you are diligent because that's what God asks you to be, right? There's a tension there that makes you a hardworking, totally carefree person. I'm not that, but there's... But some people will hear that and say, I'm diligent but not carefree, and some people will say, I'm carefree but not diligent.

And so, yeah, that's what... Like God asks that you work hard, but says, you don't have to work towards something, I've got it. Yeah, Hebrews says that, Hebrews compares the salvation to an eternal Sabbath, but James will say that a work without faith, faith without works is dead. Like that tension is there, and so you need both sides of that.

I mean, it's like the great irony of the virtues. Like take chastity, for example. If, you know, everyone said, well, if we just got rid of these patriarchal rules and were able to sleep with everybody, then we're finally going to like unleash the, you know, the great joy. The age of Aquarius.

Exactly, the great joy whenever the summer of love. And people are realizing now that, no, this is like, this way of using other people's bodies for our own enjoyment is incredibly... increases melancholy. It doesn't liberate us from melancholy.

But it's not... And so then the idea being like, well, if you set boundaries and rules to your life... No, you don't set them. You adhere to the boundaries and rules of what is proper.

Then there's actual joy there. And then the thing is, you know, is enjoyed properly. Yeah, there's... Christianity is the one that says freedom into slavery isn't freedom at all.

Yeah. Right? If we are released to our own desires for those things that humans are typically enslaved to, what we end up with is in slavery. Right?

So rather than being free... There's probably a way of thinking about discipline in regards to the framework of freedom to and freedom from, but I don't think I have the mental capacity. That's almost seven. I think, was there another way to think about this?

Almost 7am. Yes, because we get... we are disciplined to get up early. Early, yes.

We started podcasting at 5am. That would never happen. And then we're going for a run after this. Sounds miserable.

All right, boys. We'll build a tiny house. No, you got a... you love running.

You would enjoy that. I will. These days, my knee is complaining, so I think I'm going to start biking instead. There you go.

So then, Graham, maybe this will complete the thought that you were making, but... So, again, so first point, like, discipline in and of itself is not, like, an awesome thing. But discipline when used is, like, in service to some end. Discipline is to get us somewhere.

I've... many, many moons ago when we talked about Joseph, Joseph Pieper, Joseph Pieper, Joseph Pieper, whatever, Leisure, The Basis of Culture, he talks about these two conceptions of the brokenness of man. One is to say that we are bent. So imagine that we're a piece of metal and we just get bent to the side.

Another is to say that you take a piece of metal and you shatter it. You just destroy this piece of metal. In the first conception, the goal is to move from that bend closer to a straight piece of metal. Like, that's what we're going after.

And discipline is the process of moving that piece of metal. But the goal of discipline is ease. The goal of discipline is not to stay in discipline forever. To phrase it differently, my practice of courage should lead to me making more courageous decisions without me having to, like, think about it.

Yeah, yeah. My practice of loving other people should lead to love being an easy choice for me. Yeah, that's what I was trying to get with the token and type. Like, you're doing the tokens to be the type.

Yes. So... Okay, this... two different ways.

I'll just... What you just said is, like, Augustine's contribution to education. That the purpose of education is not just to, like, give you lots of facts inside of your mind, but it's, in fact, to change your affections, to change the things that you actually want. And so then the question is, how do you do that?

And that's the answer. You practice those things over and over again. That by practicing those things outside of you, that will change you internally. I have a quote somewhere in here where he says exactly that.

But that is what we're attempting to do in education. But that's not a thing that's only for other people. That's for us. That we need to practice the virtues.

We need to practice temperance, prudence, courage, and justice so that we become courageous, just, temperate, prudent people. So, that's the... That's why we're... So, again, we're starting with this, like, Roman conception of discipline where it's curbing something.

Augustine will take that and say discipline is actually, like, God using something to... It's like a punishment, but with a purpose. And the purpose of it is to shape us. Is to change us into people where we don't receive the punishment because we make better choices.

That's Augustine. Okay, so the only last point to make with that is that... We were kind of getting at this, is that the virtues, when we talk about the virtues, prudence, temperance, fortitude, justice, those aren't, like, dour things that you just read about and just, like, you know, affirm by nodding. But they are exciting.

They are, like... They are better ways of living by following those than by living a different way. You accomplish... I don't know the right way to say it.

It's like, not that you accomplish more, but, like, life is better for falling under the four virtues. Life is happier, more pleasant, more cheerful, more whatever. Falling under those four virtues than it is not falling under those virtues. The pursuit of virtue isn't just, I want to deny myself all the things that I want.

It's, you will want better things by following these virtues. That's the only other point to add with discipline. At the end of it is not, like, misery and not getting what I want. It's getting better things than you wanted in the first place.

Cool. That's all I got. Well, this has been... Thanks, Thomas.

That was good. That's a good way to think about it. Thanks. And you sat through that.

If you've been seen through all these podcasts, you were disciplined. Yeah. And you must be thinking to yourself, man, I just wanted to, like, learn about Homer. And now you've got even more than you knew you wanted.

You got better things than more things. I don't know if you got better. Is it really common for people to just... Yeah.

No, yeah. We live in Texas. That is true. We do live in Texas.

All right. Well, thanks for listening. This has been Classical Stuff You Should Know. You can check us out online at classicalstuff.net.

You can email us at classicalstuff at veritasacademy.net. You can tweet at us. Our handle is at CLSSCALstuff. And you can, you know, shoot us emails.

We'll try to respond. We love getting emails from you guys and reading those. And you guys have made us a, actually, kind of successful. Well, I mean, successful as far as we're concerned.

We were expecting, like, our mom to listen. And by our mom, I mean, like, mine. Like, I was just expecting my mom and nobody else. And I think she's listening.

Hi, mom. And everybody else, thank you so much for listening. We love seeing reviews and love knowing that you guys are out there and making our work worthwhile. So talk to us.

We like to hear from you. You make everything more fun. Cool. And so we will see you next week.

And I hope you enjoyed the last few episodes. So, bye. Bye. Bye.