Hi everyone, Robbie here. I'm excited to announce my debut horror novel, Conquest, is out and available now, both in e-book and in physical format. Here's a short description. Tensions are running high in the small mountain town of Conquest, Idaho.
Newly elected Sheriff Heather Hill is on one side, toxic and corrupt Mayor J.H. Beder on the other. A standoff in a culture war. With a wildfire approaching, battle lines begin to form.
As the Cold War heats up, Heather and J.H. are at each other's throats. But they have more to worry about than the fire. The pack has arrived in Conquest.
A round is gang of bestial shapeshifters. They are hungry and eager to show their dominance. Conquest makes it a perfect target. Now Heather, J.H., and the people of Conquest must fight for survival as blood and ash fill the streets.
It's a great book for fans of Stephen King or bloody werewolf stories. And I encourage any fans of horror to check it out. The link to purchase it is in the show notes or can be found on my website, RobynNorman.com. I've worked very hard on it and I'd love for you to check it out.
Hello everyone, I'm Robbie Darden, and this is Serial Fanaticist, the podcast for fans of everything. Welcome. Today I am joined by Andrew Bloom of TheAndrewBlog.net to discuss the 1983 comedy, Trading Places. It is one of my favorite comedies.
And this time I am on the defense as I try and repel Andrew's criticism that is largely fair. We talk about how comedies age, about the train wreck of a third act, and how the film treats people of color and women. It was a great talk. On to the discussion.
Hello everyone, I'm here once again with Andrew Bloom of TheAndrewBlog.net to talk about Trading Places. Andrew, how are you? I'm doing very well, Robbie. And I'm very excited that you and I get to do some Trading Places.
Because normally when we disagree, you are the doubter and I'm the defender. So it's good to mix things up true to our source material here. The subtitle for this is The Assassination of Trading Places by the Coward Andrew Bloom. Just so you know.
I thought of that one when I was mowing today. Mowing my lawn. So it's... I don't know why.
I've never even seen that movie. So I don't know what I'm doing. Yeah, we're talking about Trading Places. The 1983 comedy starring Dan Aykroyd, Eddie Murphy, and others.
But those are the people on the poster. And the rest. And the rest. I mean, frankly, it is a very good supporting cast for a relatively small ensemble picture.
It has both Dan Aykroyd and Eddie Murphy. But then it has Ralph Bellamy, Don Amici as the Dukes. And then Denham Elliott as... As the butler.
As Coleman. And Jamie Lee Curtis as Ophelia. In addition to future Senator Al Franken. Future and former Senator Al Franken.
Yeah, future former. Future former Senator. Al Franken. Frank Oz, for that matter.
And another... Apparently one of the... Richard Hunt was the dude who played one of the Dukes' helpers. And he was a Muppet performer.
No. I did not know that. What Wikipedia will teach you. Okay, so...
It's her, I think. I know it was a lot of them. I just briefly looked at all the different Muppets he played before he passed. Now you might ask out there, Radio Land, why are you guys talking about Trading Places, a comedy from 1983?
Why not? I mean, that is always the... Because I want to. It's always...
Is an answer. But I think there was one of those Twitter things... Twitter memes, Twitter surveys going around the name of the top 5 comedies. I think this was in...
Is that what that was? That I put this on my list? I think I did. I think that's right.
Yeah, and then you... You were... Rained on your parade. You rained on my parade.
And you made me feel... Well, you didn't make me feel bad. I still love Trading Places, despite its problems. You point out some flaws in the film, which some I agree with and some I don't.
But we're gonna talk about how Trading Places is a great movie, and you're wrong. And how I'm right. And just like in the movie, I am going to prove Robbie's theory wrong through an elaborate and unnecessarily convoluted scheme. And we bet for $1.
And whoever loses has to pay. I love Trading Places. It is, I think, a formative comedy for me. When I was young, I saw this many times along with Coming to America.
These are... They are like a pseud... Like Coming to America has... Have you seen Coming to America?
I have seen it in pieces. It's one of those movies I saw when I was a kid on cable that was always running, but I don't think I ever actually sat down and watched it from beginning to end. Okay, well then that's our next podcast, is Coming to America. Have a whole Eddie Murphy 80s comedy series.
I think you'd like Coming to America more than this. Although I'm not positive about that, but I think you would. But it has the Dukes come back in a small cameo in Coming to America because it is also directed by John Landis with Eddie Murphy. I always appreciate the sort of not really continuity, but kind of wink-wink continuity between comedy projects.
Yeah, they come back there. They are beggars on the street, and Eddie Murphy plays African royalty. And he throws them money, and they say, we're back. Because he throws them like thousands of dollars because he's infinitely rich as a king.
Or prince, I should say. But Trading Places, back to Trading Places. It is formative for me. I watched it much younger than I probably should have when I was...
I was probably 10 or something the first time I saw it, I imagine. It's a little early for a movie with as many curse words and boobs as this one has. My parents were not protective of me, and I was a precocious, smart child. So they were like, yeah, you can handle it.
You can watch this. He'll be fine. There's nothing scarring there. No.
It didn't turn you into a profane libertine or anything like that. No. Not always. Only sometimes.
But I... So I saw it when I was a child, and I've saw it over and over again over the years. And it is ensconced as one of my favorite comedies. Mostly, I mean, then, was because I thought it was funny.
Because it has a happy ending where these two guys make-in the Dukes look like idiots. I didn't really think, you know, I was a child even into my teens and young adult. I didn't think much about anything beyond, I think it's funny. When did Trading Places first happen upon you, Andrew?
Trading Places first happened upon me much, much later in life. Again, sort of a similar story to Coming to America. I want to say at some point in college, I caught part of it on cable but didn't watch it beginning to end. And I don't think I watched it stem to stern until the last couple of years.
So I do not quite have the same cherished memories from childhood to buoy the film in my memory or give me the same sentimental attachment to it that it might for other folks. Yes, nostalgia. I make no bones of the fact that nostalgia does color my appreciation of the film, even though I still think it has its merits beyond my personal grasp, appeal, grip, word. My personal grip word for it.
There's nothing wrong with nostalgia. Nostalgia is a perfectly good reason to enjoy something. It's just not what it used to be. Right.
And your review on your blog is very good. Well written as always. Very kind. I always speak the truth.
I think my only... My only... I think my largest defense, state my defense on Trading Places, is that it was made in 1983. It was released in 1983.
Probably made in '82, but released in 1983. Before I was born. I was not alive when it first came out. And there are certainly things in this.
I don't think it's a perfect movie. It's not a perfect comedy. I don't know what is... What is a perfect comedy, Andrew?
Boy, that's a tough call. I don't know. I don't know if there is one. At least, you know, two weeks from now I'll be driving home and I'll say, damn it, it's this movie.
But I can't think of one off the top of my head. Because I can think of my favorite comedies. I don't know if I'd call any of them perfect. Does The Princess Bride count as a comedy?
I would not call it comedy. I looked up lists of 80s comedies just to get a range of, like, what was coming out around the same time. And what do people consider comedies, which there's a lot of movies on those lists. I'm like, that's not really...
It's funny. That doesn't make it a comedy. Like, I laugh when I watch Spider-Man. That doesn't make it a comedy.
Like, The Princess Bride, I would call it an adventure movie. I would say maybe Groundhog Day. Groundhog Day. I would say that's pretty perfect, but again, it's got at least somewhat of a dramatic bent to it at times.
I mean, Groundhog Day is certainly in those contenders for me. Groundhog Day, I love Clue. I'm not sure. And it would...
It's very Beaks, Beaks played by Paul Gleeson, if he wants jerky. I don't feel like that's not offensive in any way. It's a little silly, but it's not offensive. I do find that funny.
Like him constantly hoisting, would you like some jerky, in his terrible African accent. It's, I mean, I don't know if it rises to the level of offensive. It's certainly not great comedy. I, I don't, I don't mind it, really.
Like, it, I'm not going to try to defend blackface in an accurate blackface. I will only say that I don't think they knew better. Well, I guess let me set that aside, because I think, well, actually, let me put two things into place. One is that I think inevitably, when you come to a work of art that has been made many decades ago, you kind of have to take it as you find it to some degree.
And you have to accept that things are going to meet the standards of the time and rationally understand that in a way that they may not meet the standards of your time. But at the same, same time, sorry to use that word so much. I also feel very strongly that it's totally fine to have that take you out of the movie. And even if you can accept something rationally, emotionally and psychologically, it can be pretty hard to just intuitively get into a film when there's blackface and, you know, shouted slurs at women and all this other stuff.
It just makes it hard to warm to a film, even if you can understand why it is the way it is. And I think the other half of that is that comedy in particular ages like really old cheese. You know, it's what the standards of comedy are, are somewhat universal. Like there are certain things that are going to be funny no matter when you do them, that just take a little human funny bone, but so much of comedy ends up being a reflection of a certain time and a certain mood and a certain spirit in a community at a given time.
And it doesn't always translate perfectly. And I think more so than drama. I think you can watch a drama from, you know, a hundred years ago, and it obviously there's going to be some translation issues, but at the same time, you can be moved by it in a way that I think it's much harder to find a comedy from a hundred years ago as knee slappingly funny as one that is directly aimed at you and your demographic and your sensibilities will in 2019. And I think those are probably the two problems of trading spaces for me that part of trading places for me that you know one, there, there is some of, there are some of those culturally insensitive artifacts that I don't necessarily cast dispersions on anybody for, for putting in there at the time, even if I think even in 1983, probably knew weren't great, but, but just hinder my ability to get into the film.
And I also think, I think there's just some conventions that are not necessarily offensive, but are just a little passé now about the film that make it harder for me to get into it as well. I, I, I actually, I read, I looked up many blackface. It turns out, Hey, Andrew, there's, we still have a problem with blackface in 2019. We do.
We haven't solved the face as a problem. We haven't. I know it's a breaking news. Apparently we haven't solved racism.
And so it was very easy to find articles, even that mentioned trading places actually. And they're like, Oh, in the long ago days, we, you know, comedies have always had these things where you're, you don't know what, you know, it makes, they make it okay because it's comedy, you know, it, you know, and then that's the whole point, you know, that's why blackface is bad is because it is, it is camouflage. It's trying to camouflage racism and make it funny. And then you're like, Oh, it's harmless.
It doesn't, Oh no, it definitely is harmful. And so I'm no defense of it. I would just say I, I will cut them some slack and say it's 1983. There are many other like, Oh, I read that today too.
What's that terrible movie where the whole movie, the guy is in blackface because he, he goes to soul, soul, man. Oh my God. So bad. So bad.
Talk about something that, I mean, so there was a tweet about Green Book literally seconds after it won the best picture Oscar. It was like, Hey, remember when the Oscars selected Green Book as their best picture, man, that choice hasn't aged well. I feel like the same thing had to be true of Soul Man. Like five seconds after that came out, somebody had to understand that this wasn't a good idea, but yeah, another, another podcast for another day.
I just, I just, I've seen a lot of blackface. They're still like, they're still white characters still playing people of color all the time. It's getting better, but it still is a problem. So Billy Crystal at the Oscars themselves.
Not that long ago. Yeah. Oh, right. Oh God.
Billy Crystal. Right. For his one man show where he plays a black blues man, jazz man, a black jazz man, a la Bleeding Gums Murphy. Not good.
The train sequences is not good. I think it is, it is my only, the only sequence in the movie that I tune out that I go, you know, I just kind of not pay attention. I love everything else. Everything else.
Every other part of that movie. Yeah, I think so. Largely, largely do. I don't, I mean, there's, I mean, again, I don't think it's perfect, but I do think it really, aside from the train sequence, it really efficiently uses its time.
It packs a lot of character. There's like, it packs a lot of, it packs a lot of character into it, packs a lot of character building in a relatively short amount of time. I'm not saying all the characters are incredibly deep or nuanced, but there is a large, a large central cast that all get a reasonable amount of time. We understand who and what they are, what they want.
Each of them have little tiny, their own moments to focus that we get the, we get this focus on them. I absolutely love, I don't know. I'm not reading your review. I'm not necessarily sure if you are, I don't know.
I love the happy ending. I love them, them, them winning all the, becoming the rich people and, and retiring to this tropical Island or whatever they're doing. I know it's kind of formulaic, but that's kind of what I want in a comedy. You know, I don't, that's what they always say about Shakespeare.
The comedy is everyone gets married and is happy and the dramas, everyone dies a bunch of funerals, comedies end in weddings. Dramas end in funerals. Tragedies end in funerals, really, but whatever. I don't, I, I, I think that especially considering that this movie came out in 1983, I think it's relatively progressive considering it came out in 1983.
I think it's relatively progressive and holds up a lot more than a lot of other 80s comedies. Like, I don't know how, I don't know how many 80s comedies you're familiar with, Andrew. Many? Uh, so I would say I've seen a decent number of them.
Most of them in the, in the last 10 years, I would say like it was just kind of something that escaped my cultural bubble for a while. But, you know, again, I've seen Groundhog day, Caddyshack stripes, I guess anything with Bill Murray in it. If you asked me this a decade ago, it would be very few, but I would say now I've probably at least seen most of the notable ones. Right.
And so I, like you said, you try and keep things. I try and keep things in the same time period, you know, try and judge things by how they release in a time period. And you think back to other movies of that time period, other comedies of the time period, especially they, I, I, they, I don't know, not all of them had blackface, but they certainly treated women worse. They treated sex worse.
They weren't as clever with their humor and they don't hold up. I think thematically, I think, Hey, two dudes trying to get over on some oligarchs is pretty prescient topic for, for 2019. I mean, sure, but it's, it's not really presented as a, I guess let's put it this way. I think that the social commentary goes out the window when they get on that damn train that from there on out, it just becomes the good guys defeat the bad guys and they have a convoluted scheme to do it.
And there's not anything, there's not anything deeper to it beyond, Hey, look, these guys that you tried to mess with are now messing with you. How does it feel? We've got the reversal and you know, not every comedy has to set the world on fire in terms of its, its subtext or depth. It's perfectly fine to have a movie that just gives you that good feeling of the characters you like triumphing over the characters that you don't like.
What kills me about trading places is that I think that commentary is there. It's baked into the premise. It's the thing that makes it relevant in 2019 to where I'm, I, you know, I think I may have even said this in the, the tweet thread that we had, I'd love to see a remake of this movie with, you know, like Tiffany Haddish and Go to good Friends. And it's a good excuse to have an 80s party scene.
It does have a good excuse. All 80s comedies must have by law. Does it? Is that, I did not, where is that law, by the way?
Is it in a book that I need? Can I get that book somewhere? I believe it's in the uh Harold Ramis Reporter Code. Oh man, I would love, if that was actually a thing, I would absolutely adore it.
I would love to read that. It's written in our hearts, Robbie. Okay, um, then we have, and we segue into the 80s party scene, but I think that that scene doesn't do a normal typical 80s party thing, 80s scene, because the protagonist, our protagonist, is the person who breaks up the party. And that shift does happen quickly, but I don't think, I don't think that scene necessarily means that he is suddenly, I think, I don't know, that scene doesn't, doesn't transition him as far as it may seem, I think, because, like, yeah, he kicks everyone out.
He's like, get out, because everyone's destroying his nice stuff now. And he's like, oh, now I own a lot of stuff and now it's getting destroyed. And now I'm the owner of these things. And now suddenly my opinion is changed about it.
Which, I mean, it's not out of the realm of belief for me. If I was suddenly given many things that are very, very nice, and I've never had them before, I could, I could foresee myself going, no, what are you doing? Just because you're my friend doesn't mean you put out cigarettes on the carpet. What are you doing?
Don't do that. I don't have a problem with that. I think that part of it is fine. It makes total sense to me that he says, suddenly I have things, and so I care about things being hurt.
But then, I think there's a marked shift in his demeanor and opinions after that. Not only is he just like, okay, they're messing up my stuff, he starts having opinions about, like, no, you have to be tough on these people, you know, otherwise they get too big for their britches, and they're just thieves and freeloaders. And suddenly he's spouting, not just, you know, he's not just defending the things that he has and wants to keep nice. His entire worldview has shifted from this.
I think that's what the movie is trying to sell. That this is his epiphany moment there. He's like, oh, well, I suddenly have wealth and I have objects of expense and niceness to protect. And thus, I am a different person now.
I don't know. I don't know. I think it's, there's a clear transition for him in that scene, and it happens so fast from my perspective. I think it's the, it is that there isn't, he doesn't have, Billy Ray doesn't have, like, neither, that's another interesting thing about these characters, is that neither of them have friends, really.
Well, Winthorpe does. They're just not actually friends. That's what I mean. They're not, I mean, they're the same.
Like, Billy Ray is the people he hanged out with at the party or at the bar, or the people he's palling around with in jail. They're not his friends. They're, like, he knows them and they are, like, he'll, like, you know, hang out with them and talk to them about life, but they're not friends. And Winthrop's are, those guys are definitely not his friends.
They're just, hey, we are also rich people in this club. Hello, we are co-workers, therefore, and because we are, there's only eight rich people here, we are all friends, sort of. We'll play racket ball together, squash, something. I know they refer to some rich person sport.
They're well-wishers in that they don't wish Winthrop any direct harm. Exactly. Specific harm parties at that party. How dare you.
But they don't really have friends, neither of them. And I feel like that's, I like the parallels between the two characters. And I don't think Billy, like, the scene I was getting to, I was leading there at my own convoluted path, but it's the scene directly after that night. It is the morning when he is going to work for the first day.
And I think it's honestly, Denholm, Denholm, how do you say his name? Do you have any idea? Denholm? I have.
I believe it's pronounced dental. I have no idea. Okay. Dental Elliott, who plays Coleman.
He's, it's, it's something I've never noticed before, but his acting in that little small scene is really, really good. And I wish he, I wish he had a little bit more to do, but I, I'm not going to, also, I'm not going to, like, blame the movie for not having more things for everyone who's not Dan Aykroyd and Eddie Murphy to do. Because it is their vehicle. Don't blame it for not having more for Jamie Lee Curtis to do.
I don't, I, we're going to get to Jamie Lee Curtis. Okay. We're going to get to Ophelia. I want to talk about Ophelia some, for sure.
Okay. I've not forgotten about Ophelia. Join us next time for our Hamlet podcast. Andrew, I'm, if you want to do a Hamlet podcast, I am down.
I've seen four different versions of Hamlet in film. I've seen it on stage. I have opinions about Hamlet. Well, I'd like to do it, but I could never kind of gin up enough to actually do it.
God, I hate you. I hate, I hate Hamlet, the character. I hate, like, I like the play a lot. I hate the character so much.
I hate him. But that's the point. You're supposed to, like, Why don't you do something? Come on, decide.
If only he ended up on a tropical island or something. I know, man, I would love, I would love Hamlet. Hanging out with Laertes, sipping my ties. There's a scene when Billy Ray is about to go into work for the first time and Coleman is driven him to the office and he opens the door and Billy Ray gets out.
And there's a moment where it is a very, it's like maybe 30 seconds to a minute long. And Billy, Billy just goes to Coleman. He's like, Coleman, what's going on? What am I supposed to do?
Like, what is this? And it's very clear. Like, I don't think, I don't think Billy Ray is still, has still has bought in. And this, he's, he's very clearly like, I don't, I don't know what these two white dudes, these old white rich dudes are doing with me.
I don't know why I'm here. This is what, he's already seen, I think on the drive over, that's when he sees um Winthrop in the taxi cab. And they start Winthrop yells at him. He's like, hey, that's my car.
He's wearing my, yeah, wearing his clothes or whatever. And so obviously right then, that is a, a tell, like, what is going on? I saw that dude yesterday. I got arrested because I messed with him accidentally.
So I accidentally knocked him over and now he's in a taxi cab wearing a shoddy suit yelling at me saying I stole stuff from him while I'm now basically in his position with his former bosses. And like, it's a clear, like, something's wrong. Something's weird. And then Billy Ray gets out of the car and he goes to Coleman and he's like, what do I do, Coleman?
Like, what am I supposed to do? And Coleman the whole time is like constantly just like, just muttering under his breath about how terrible everyone is. He's not wrong. He's not wrong.
He's like, oh, those, what scumbags. He says it as he gets off the phone. He's throwing, Winthrop tells him, you can have the dessert, which, what's, why didn't, why didn't he eat the dessert? It looked good.
No, he has, maybe he's lactose intolerant. I don't know. I don't know. I, it looked like, you know, crepes with like orange sauce or something.
It looked really good. Um, maybe this wasn't, he didn't like sweets. But, and like, he's throwing in the garbage. He's diabetic.
That might be the case. Uh, he throws throwing in the garbage and you're like, Coleman says to him, he's like, I don't, he, like, because he doesn't know what to tell him because he does work for the Dukes. He is obligated to do what they say or he will lose his job. And he's like, just be true to yourself.
At least they can't take that from you. I think that is wallpaper in a sequence in a character transformation where Eddie Murphy spends a lot of time as the rough and tumble Ed Valentine and a lot of time as the corporate stooge uh Billy Ray Valentine. And I don't think he spends a lot of time in between. I think he probably spends more time issuing homophobic slurs than he does actually transitioning from one position to another.
Have you ever watched Eddie Murphy stand up? I have, and it is unlistenable. You are correct. I agree with you.
It's just, I, I was, I was thinking about the entire time, like this is so tame compared to uh Raw and Delirious. Is that the other one? That's right. Okay.
I, I also watched them as a very young child when I probably shouldn't have. Yeah, he's got more than trading places. I mean, I didn't, I had and understand, oh, these are who these men really are. These men don't care about me.
They think I am garbage. They think I'm not human. You know. I hundred percent agree with that assessment.
I have some qualms about this being the method to get there, but... I mean, it's certainly an efficient one to establish these guys as bad guys. I will not dispute that. I question whether there could be other ways to do it where you don't have to have them dropping n-bombs.
I mean, one, it's the thing I thought about this movie after I watched it, was this kind of, they don't make this anymore. Like, they don't make comedies like this much anymore. Comedies have changed. I mean, like you said earlier, when you were talking about like, yeah, we can't watch a comedy from 50 years ago.
What is it anymore? Or 100 years ago. Like, temporally, comedies have changed structure a lot of ways, and it's, you know, oftentimes it is adjusting what is acceptable now in our current pop culture and trying to make things that accommodate, you know, a vision, whatever that means. Even though I don't know how many, very few comedies are.
And I don't know if that, like, I think some of it, that's good in some ways. I think it's bad in others. Like, it is generally, you know, I see this sentiment a lot in different circles online, in some people, obviously in some ways, it is very good because there are more movies that are more welcoming to more people. And I have no problem with that.
But it also feels like a lot of films in particular, I think it's probably shifted to television largely. I was gonna say, I think that's probably my response. I think they do make comedies like these, it's just on the small screen rather than the big one. But it's, it's kind of dirty.
Like, I don't mean dirty like, oh, it's like crass jokes or like, you know, toilet humor or, you know, you know, curse words or nudity or whatever. I mean, like, it feels kind of like movies about poor people. I don't... there aren't any.
I don't know if that's true. I mean, I guess it's harder to think of comedies. There's certainly dramas. Comedy is about poor people.
Yeah, I would say that the inheritors of this sort of thing are probably the likes of It's Always Sunny in Philadelphia and shows that kind of follow in its footsteps. I do think this sort of humor exists. It's just sort of translated elsewhere. It's always sunny.
Touche. That is the dirtiest, the dirtiest television shows. And I do mean dirty as in just filthy, gross. And all the nicest ways.
I agree that, yeah, Always Sunny does. Although, sometimes I think it overdoes it a little bit. But it's, it has, I think, I have no problem with a single use of the n-word from villains that are the Dukes. These are, they're bad guys.
They're rich old white dudes who hold power. And they even say it at the very end of the, near the end of the movie and at the final scene, or second to final scene, I suppose, when they're like, we founded this exchange. We've always said it's ours. We own it.
And, you know, they are the most powerful men. And I don't have an issue with it. It's, I don't think it gets overused. I using it one time to make it very clear who, what these type of men are.
Because I think, like, they have, I think the Dukes are actually written pretty cleverly. I mean, I don't think they're deep characters. But I think that the fact that one is kind of a gentler, a gentler guy, and the other one is clearly Don Amici, is clearly, I forget which Duke is which. Mortimer is, is generally...
Now I'm doubting myself. Yes, Mortimer is harsh and mean and expects the worst from Billy Ray and more overtly racist. I mean, I, in isolation, it may not be the worst thing in the world. I think it's a little cheap.
And I also think that taken with the other elements of the film, which have some questionable racial politics and presentation in play, it makes me more sensitive to it than I might otherwise be. It feels like there are certain blind spots in the perspective of the film. And I don't know if that individual scene is an indicator of that, but it makes it hit my radar more than it might otherwise, given the other problems I have with the film on that front. OK, well, I'm gonna, I'll finish with that, and then we get to those other problems.
I, I, I only, I'm glad it makes it clear that these, what kind of racists these men are. Because even in 2019, by God, there are still people who, oh, they didn't, they don't use any ethnic slurs. They don't about whoever, whatever. Whatever the person really, are they racist?
The question. Or are they behaving as a racist, which is the same. Oh, they don't use ethnic slurs. They just feel this particular way about this blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
And it's very easy to see, oh, Randolph is made as the soft, more kind Duke, while Mortimer is the harsher, more overtly racist Duke. That scene makes it very clear that, no, they're the same. They're the same man. Regardless of how they, they couch, maybe how they talk about people of color, they are both the same awful racist.
What are the other issues you're talking about? Color your thoughts about it. Again, the blackface, some of the depiction of Eddie Murphy's character prior to his transformation. Some of the characterizations of Eddie Murphy's character after his transformation.
Uh, there's a certain extent to which there's an almost patronizing tone to the film at the same time it wants to be very humane to the, uh, the Billy Ray Valentine character. And, you know, maybe some of that is that I, I, it wouldn't shock me if a lot of it is just letting Eddie Murphy be Eddie Murphy. And if you listen to his standup, not all of it is great and not all of it is super flattering. And some of that's just gonna come through in 2019 in a way it's not going to in 1983, but it's hard to disaggregate that from some of the film's larger blind spots about those things.
In addition to that scene, I think there's a lot of ways in which Eddie Murphy is presented prior to the character's transformation. I think there's a lot of ways after his transformation. I think, obviously, the blackface and sort of the cultural stereotypes that are used. It all kind of becomes a big bundle to me.
And some of that may just be instances where if you have a comedy, you're gonna let Eddie be Eddie. And if you listen to his standup, a lot of the stuff he does here is not that far cry from that. So it's hard to know how much of this is just on letting the performer do their shtick and how much of it is the film and the writers and the director stepping in and saying, this is the kind of movie we want to make. But I do think there's times in which the film is attempting to portray African-American characters a certain way and it can come off patronizing or condescending or even to the level of offensive in places that make me question the larger project at times.
Even though it's clearly trying to be humane and trying to be on the Billy Ray Valentine character's side, ultimately. I think sometimes it does so in ways that, that show the blind spots of certainly the makers of the film and perhaps just comedy audiences in 1983 that stand out in a way in 2019 they didn't then. I mean, I don't, I don't know. I don't think, I don't think, I think that I'm, I'm largely, I, I, I, it's hard, like you said, it's hard to parse the, some of that stuff because of the time it's been since it happened, then it became, you know, 30 plus years ago, plus the, about the impact of Eddie Murphy and how much, you know, his performance, how much of it is him versus what a bunch of, you know, this movie is directed by John Landis, who's, you know, a white man and written by white men.
So, yeah, I don't know. It largely, I, I always, I always fall back on, and even I did it. I did it when I watched this, is this movie is on the side of the lower, lower class. It is the villains.
Every rich person is a villain. Um, until the end when, hey, we've got ours. I mean, I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna defend, like, hey, it's still at the end, it's a very capitalist movie because it's very much like, no, well, we got our money, so we're good now. We're goodbye.
Goodbye, poor life. Exactly. I mean, I think it's clear that they mean well. I don't know that they always do well.
Um, speaking of that, let's talk about Ophelia. Let's talk about Jamie Lee Curtis. I love this. I love this.
That's great. Again, I feel like this has got to be a, like, ha! No, you know how it feels moment! Like, I, I, uh, I don't know.
So let's leave it this way. I think that the Ophelia character is another instance where I'm just so frustrated by the missed opportunity because you introduce her, you have Jamie Lee Curtis, who, whether they knew it It doesn't appeal to me and because it has beliefs that are kind of, he's sometimes vehemently against, but he's, because he's, because he's an incredibly intelligent critic, he encounters a lot of stuff that he can only enjoy small parts of it. He can only take out small things that he can appreciate. And I try and keep that, that viewpoint, I think is incredibly valuable where when you, like, hey, I'm in Simpsons of season 12, I'm trying really hard just to take out the small things that he can appreciate and say, this is valuable.
This is good. I enjoyed this a lot. I'm trying to cherish that. And you're right.
The Ophelia character is really interesting and they do a lot to establish her as a very, I don't know, trope-defying character at first, at first glance. You know, her first meeting with, her first kind of extended intro sequence with her and Winthorpe. And they do a lot to differentiate her from other characters of that type. And then they don't do a bunch with her.
She becomes a love interest. She becomes, you know, a, she becomes the female counterpart to Coleman. They are both servants, basically. And for a guy that she met like an hour ago and then becomes just preternaturally devoted to it.
Yeah. Again, I'm not going to disagree with you there. I think that, and that is largely serving the film in that we need to get, we are, we don't have enough time. We need to get to this.
We need to get to that train sequence. It's very important. Um, but I try and think about it, how many movies and how many movies in 1983, how many comedies in 1983 have a, portray a sex worker like this, as someone who's smart and capable and not just the common, you know, uh, I am losing my person Cassidy, the, the kind of binary choice between whore or madonna kind of thing. Madonna whore complex.
Yeah, that. And it doesn't do that largely. I think, you know, it's, it settles back into a very simple love interest role near the, like after the halfway two thirds mark, even though she does get some, you know, comedy scenes in the train sequence, which we don't, we don't like the train sequence, but she does have moments of like, Hey, I'm, I'm also doing comedy, which Jamie Lee Curtis is very good at. Um, but she is presented as a sex worker who is capable, smart, knows what she's doing.
She's not a victim. She doesn't have a pimp. She says it specifically. She makes it, and she, I know in the movie does sort of, it, I think the movie does hurt itself.
It's self-inflicted wounds when, you know, she's like, and you know, everything costs, she's like, see, they had this thing where she's like, rent costs money, food costs money. And then she makes it. And then, you know, she takes her top off and says, that's not the only thing that costs money in this house. You sleep on the couch.
Um, and that, that kind of, that scene. And you're right about like, you know, most women in this movie are literally there to just be nude for men. Um, that scene, I will defend the nudity in that largely because it is, I, I'm not going to say that I find it blameless, but it is a sort of power play on her part where, you know, she's a sex worker. She's probably more comfortable with nudity than most people.
And she wants to make sure that Winthrop understands like, Hey, this isn't pretty woman. Again, in isolation, I think it's fine. In the context of the rest of the movie where women take off their clothes to drop the hat for no reason, I have more qualms about it. I mean, and I think it's, it's a great scene up to that point.
And, but I mean, even again, even setting it aside, it's, it's far from the movie's worst sins. I just think it's reflective of the perspective on female characters that is being brought to the movie outside of this one scene that gives you a glimmer of hope that they're about to do something different. I'm, I, I'm, I'll say this to Andrew. You're not wrong again, but think, can you name other 80s comedies with more than one female character that isn't nine to five?
Uh, I mean, 80s comedy is, is something I think I'm at least mildly versed in, but not definitely not my specialty. I mean, I understand like I'm doing this off the dome. Yeah, here, name some things. I looked and there's not a lot.
Nine to five is one, which nine to five is like the most crushing 80s comedy of all time. You're like, wow, that should have been made today. Uh, why? They probably will.
They probably will remake nine to five. There's probably some screenwriters. I want to say I've heard something about it being remade. I don't know if that's true, but at least seen rumblings.
I, I, if there isn't officially, there has to be a screenwriter somewhere going like, I'm going to make, make nine to five. This is going to be great. This is perfect. Uh, Dolly Parton will be a small cameo.
She'll be blah, blah. Like, uh, the, I, like I mentioned that like, aside from nine to five, there's not a lot of one comedies in general. And then specifically like screwball, low, like crass comedies that have any female characters of meaning. Like what are your thoughts on, go ahead.
So I'm looking at my, my little letterbox list here. And I again would pick out a few. I don't necessarily think they're great movies, all of it, but they're at least ones that did it. Uh, Scrooge has multiple female characters.
Heather's uh, has multiple female characters. Heather's is good. Um, I don't know if you want to classify it as a comedy, but it certainly veers that way. Uh, Beetlejuice has more than one female character.
I don't, I don't consider Beetlejuice a comedy. Um, probably mainly because I find it terrifying. Like it's way more scary to me. There are.
I generally, I, I, I, I understand the people who call things horror comedies. I generally go, well, that's a horror to me or that's a comedy to me. Like I, and I'm, I won't begrudge people who call it a horror comedy, but certain movies I think they are funny to me. And certain movies I go, that's more scary.
Like Ghostbusters, you know, that's like, that's a horror comedy to some people. That's just a comedy to me. I don't call that a horror comedy, even though there are definitely scary things in it. Um, Shaun of the Dead.
That's a comedy to me. I don't find that. I don't, it's not a horror movie. Um, Slither.
That's a horror movie. There's certainly funny things in it. I would consider that more of a comedy than anything. Um, have you ever seen Slither?
I have not. It's on my list. It's very good. Um, James Gunn.
Um, what was I talking about? I would, I would say that it's, it's 80s comedies with women and especially in 80s comedy with women that shows a sex worker that isn't just a whore. Isn't just like, Hey, they're a hooker. I know the hooker with a heart of gold is a thing, but I feel like that's still, I'm taking that small.
I'm going to take that one scene or two scenes, if you want to be generous and take that out and say, that's good. And that's, that's, it's out of place otherwise in this movie. It doesn't make sense that it exists at all. And I'm not gonna, I try not fault the movie for not doing more of a thing that it probably would never do in 1983.
Okay. But without doing that thing, then she's literally just a prop. Like that's the only thing that justifies her presence at all in this damn thing. Well, most of them are props, Andrew.
I'm sorry. Most. Most comedies are full of props. They're not, it's, I don't, I, I'm not going to argue that the Dukes and uh, the, the Butler and even uh Beaks gets more characterization, more to do than she does if you take out that one scene.
Beaks is definitely just a prop. Uh, he's just, it is literally just everyone. It's just Paul Gleeson playing a jerk, which he does in every movie. Oh, typecasting aside.
Yeah. I mean the Dukes, I don't think the Dukes are deep. I think even like you said, I don't even think Winthrop and and Billy Ray are deep characters. It is like they're following the fairy Prince and the popper kind of standard story structure.
I think that doing it with one, uh, a black man as one of your main characters, uh having a sex worker that has some positive, positive anything, frankly, um, having like having that, those elements in 1983 is more than I expect. Like name a, and like largely it is because Eddie Murphy was so incredible at such a young age that he forced himself. Like he, like, Hey, I am so good. I make so much money for you.
You have to cast me in movies. You have to put me in these movies. I'm going to make you because I'm so good. But I look at all these other movies that are like this at the time, which I actually I didn't fully understand what was happening.
And they say, I believe that 100% if that is true. Because I mean, I until I was in my twenties, I really had no idea. Well, I mean, I'd seen the movie probably, I've seen this movie probably a two dozen times in my life. Um, and for most of them, I probably didn't actually, like I understood the basics, like, yeah, they made money, they made the Dukes lose money.
It's not complicated, that part. But I understand, like, yeah, I imagine a lot of the audience didn't know. All they know is that like, hey, Dan Aykroyd and Eddie Murphy celebrate at the end and they dance up and down and they're happy because they made a lot of money and the Dukes owe $380 million. It would be good guys who are teaming up despite the fact that they don't really know each other and have just kind of barely sniffed this scheme out.
And I don't, I think if you make the train sequence something simpler, I don't think it's that so far-fetched of a scheme. I don't think it, if it didn't involve gorillas and insane offensive costumes and future former senators, I think it would work better. And I think it would make the plan seem a little bit more cogent, but there are gorillas in the movie. I don't, I do not, hey, I'm gonna make it very clear.
I do not condone any part of the gorillas, gorilla and gorillas sections of this movie. Firmly against. I'm not against gorillas in general. I don't think one could be.
I think gorillas can be delightful and even touch our hearts with their sign language. But I don't think they necessarily have a place when they're used as a comic device for unfortunate comeuppance. What is it with people thinking animals raping people are so funny? What is going, what, what is happening?
Why is that a thing? That's the old joke is, comedy is when you spill soup on your slacks, tragedy is when I spill soup on mine. It's funny because it's happening to somebody else. Right.
I don't, I don't agree with that. That's the premise. That's what they want you to think. Like, well, he's a bad guy and he's dressed up as a gorilla.
And now you have the ironic comeuppance that he is being sexually assaulted by a gorilla. Isn't that hilarious? I don't, I maybe. Time to do another lineup, okay.
Yeah, that, see. Award myself for such a brilliant gag. There you go. That might be closer.
That might be getting closer to the truth. And it's not the issue that John Landis, you're talking about how comedy's aged. John Landis has not made a good movie since the 80s, really. I've looked at all his, he's made some amazing movies in the 80s and then made a bunch of stinkers afterwards.
He made American, he made Blues Brothers, American Werewolf in London, Trading Places, Three Amigos, Coming to America, and then not good things. I mean, sometimes you're attuned to the zeitgeist for a while and then you're just not attuned to it anymore and then you just, you know, what you're selling becomes not what people want. But the point is, I don't wanna cast aspersions on anybody who enjoys this film, especially you, Robbie. Like I said, for one thing, comedy is so individual, which I think is part of why it makes it hard to go revisit comedies from several decades ago in a lot of ways.
But you know, at the same time, I do think there's an argument to be made that Trading Places is aiming for something that seems quaint in 2019, but was laudable and not as done in 1983. And I do give it some credit for that. But I also think in some ways it exposes the, I don't wanna say half-assed job, but maybe it does some of these things in a way that's unsatisfying to us now because they don't go further or don't sort of take them to what I would consider the watch points. But the other second point is, there's lots of funny things in this movie.
There's lots of well-done things in this movie. There is a lot of good social commentary in this movie, however handicapped it may be by the time to which it was made. And it's not my cup of tea, but it doesn't bother me that it's anybody else's. Watch it and good health.
I haven't watched it in a very long time and it was nice watching it again. It is one of those movies for me where it's like a warm cup of tea. It's just, it's comforting. It's comfort food.
It's comforting to me, just watching it. And I don't really have a rhyme or reason for why certain movies do that and some movies don't. Like movies I like that I can't just watch and just enjoy regardless of the bad parts. I don't care about them.
I don't care about the bad parts enough that I go, man, I just like how this movie makes me feel. And it just, that's what this is to me. It's not, it is a movie where I acknowledge all those problems. I just, I don't know why is this one, maybe it's because I'm nostalgic for it, but that's not, I don't think that's all of it.
I don't know. I don't know. I don't know. What's are things that you do on the internet?
Where can people find your writing and other things you create? So people can find things that I create on my website, which has links to all of my writing from all across the web. The website is theandrewblog.net. It's three words, theandrewblog.net.
You can also find me as part of Consequence of Sounds expanded film and TV section, where I did a review of a new television show on Showtime called Black Monday, starring Don Cheadle, which I would in many ways consider kind of a modern day successor to Trading Places. I would encourage you all to check out. And you can also find me on Twitter at the Andrew blog. So Robbie, thank you for letting me come onto your show to trash something that you love.
That's a very gracious of you. Like you said, it doesn't happen a lot. It's usually the other way around where I'm trying to convince people to like something. Unless it's The Simpsons and that.
And then I'm just convincing Matt to hate something and usually works. Andrew, thank you for joining me. My pleasure, Robbie, anytime. Anytime.
Thanks again to Andrew for joining me. You can find me on Twitter at Robbie Norman. And my website is robbienorman.com. The show's website is foulfinests.com.
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