A Living Donor Tells Her Story

Hello, and welcome to the Get to Life podcast where we have conversations about organ tissue and eye donation. I'm Ray Steel. I'm Sally Gentry. I'm not Joey Boudreau.

Oh, I'm happy about that. Is that bad? Joey, don't listen. But who are you?

What are you? What are you happening? I'm Adam Keaton. Adam, that sounds familiar.

We work in the same hall. I think that's good. Yeah. So Adam for LOPA is an advanced practice coordinator.

That's pretty fancy. Yes, it is. What do you do? What do I do?

Yeah. Well, generally I oversee the medical management of our organ donors. I help with testing and allocation of the potential organs. In addition to interacting with and supporting our donor family.

So just one small part of the team that makes life out. Nice. That sounds like clinical. I think that's why he's in for Joey today.

Do we know where Joey, like do we have a BPS one? Where is Joey? Come back Joey. Where is well?

Where is Joey? Just disappearing. Well, Adam, we appreciate you sitting in because this is a pretty power packed episode that we have here on the Get to Life wait until you hear what we have set up for you. Yes.

I'm so excited to be here today as part of this episode because I have so many questions for our guests. This is a story of true selflessness that I'm so excited to hear. And we learned about her story because she called our hotline that hotline works. Yes.

What's that? What's that number? Oh, the numbers five zero four six four eight three four seven seven. I'm glad you asked.

You see that? I saw that. What's the number? Adam, what are you looking?

We're going to repeat it throughout the episode. Don't worry. We want you to use that hotline. We also want you to share what you'll hear here on the Get to Life.

We try to have fun. But what our goal is is to spur those healthy conversations about organ tissue and eye donation. We are easy to find. We hope did you find the podcast?

I did. Numerous places. You can find it on your favorite podcast app. iTunes, Google Play, or you can go to the giftitlife.org.

I'm like, and your favorite podcast crew member is Laurie Steele. Oh, I didn't pay him yet. But he brought chocolate. So I like him.

Oh, why do we work? Doesn't it? That was totally set up. Okay.

Listen, a lot of what you hear on the podcast. You'll find on our social media sites. So Facebook, we're donate life, Louisiana, Twitter and Instagram. We're at donate life, LA and my favorite podcast crew member.

Everybody. That's the right answer. Everybody. Everybody.

First time. Oh, and don't forget folks. You can call us. Wait, let's let Adam say the number.

You know it. It's like six, four, eight, three, four, seven, seven. Well, that's pretty dog on good. Adam, I'm pushing for a jingle.

Do you think, I mean, because you kind of almost sang it there, like you kind of had a little, you know, heaven is that. We might take my chop. We'll say, all right. Figure out what the gifted life podcast holds for you.

But that hotline is for you to call in to share your story so that you can be part of this podcast. We don't know what's happening on your journey and we want to help other people make life happen. So it starts with you. One person can make a difference.

You guys ready to get started on this episode of the gifted life? Let's do it. Episode 87. Here we go.

Here on the gifted life, a special guest joins us now. Her name is Jennifer David. Hey, Jennifer. Hi.

Hi. We were all smiling. I think we're all still in awe. You want to tell us how we came to know about Jennifer's house?

Well, I understand that she called in and left us a message on our hotline and was talking about giving the gift. Yeah. And so we shared that with Adam and what did you say about just the initial hearing of Jennifer story? Just that I was so excited.

Yeah, because this is a, you know, a true act of selflessness, like through altruism, you know, just to help somebody for the sake of helping them. So I'm a total stranger. It's amazing. I know what Jennifer did.

Yeah, we all want to know. So Jennifer, we were sitting here and we're in awe and we were just so glad that we connected with you. But we got to voicemail. Tell us about the timeline.

So you called us a couple of weeks ago to let us know that you were thinking about doing something amazing. Yes. Yes. I called in because I had been listening to some of your podcasts as I was thinking about becoming a living kidney donor.

And I was, I received word from the surgery center. I got my surgery date. And so I wanted to call in and let you know how much your podcast meant to me and how much it helped me hear from both recipients and people who had been living donors that really helped me feel a lot more comfortable about my decision. Goodness.

So what got you to that decision? Like how does one say, that's what I want to do? Can you walk us through your thought process? Sure.

Yeah. Yeah. A couple, I listened to a lot of podcasts because I do a lot of commuting back and forth for work. And one of the ones I listened to had a story of someone who became an altruistic kidney donor.

And I'd never heard of that before. I had only heard of giving to family members or a pair donation of somebody you knew. And I didn't know it was even possible to give your kidney to whoever was next to line, whoever needed it. And then I heard another podcast that was talking about the person that won the economics Nobel Prize who helped develop a system that matches donors and recipients and it just seemed to keep popping up in my daily life.

And I thought about it more and more. And I searched online for a kidney transplant center and I found UCLA since I was here in Southern California. And once I completed their online questionnaire, it pretty much took off from there. I contacted them in January and then by May 2nd this year, I just went ahead surgery.

Oh, wow. So you went through with it. You started researching. So tell us a little bit about you because I'm thinking I'm a working mom.

I'm so busy. That you had time in the one to do that. That's just amazing. Tell us about you.

I'm 46. I'm married. I don't have any kids. I have a little fur babies at home.

I work for a healthcare organization. I'm familiar with, you know, I used to be a clerk in the OR so I'm familiar. I used to work close with her since I'm certain. And so the whole prospect of surgery really didn't scare me because I kind of know what goes on in the background.

So I think that helps a lot too. And then working in healthcare, you know, you hear, I don't work directly with patients, but I also hear lots of stories of people with kidney disease and people on dialysis. Just knowing that I could help somebody out really helped motivate me to. Wow.

What a great feeling to say. I gave the gift of life to someone. You are really just a wonderful individual. I love also that you had experience in healthcare and worked in a surgery environment knowing everything you know and you're still excited about making this decision.

So it says, I think a lot about the healthcare system and your experience with it also. I'm going to go to different route Jennifer. So you brought this topic up to your husband and he said, what are what? Tell me about that.

I'm curious. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

He was surprised, of course, I think anybody would be used to tell you that. And so, you know, it's been almost a two year process between the first time I heard the first story about it and, you know, kind of being on and off thinking about it. And so he'd had some time to get used to it. But of course, you know, I think it's really picked up this year once I contacted UCLA.

Yeah, he was supportive. You know, of course, it was his choice. I think he would, you know, you're always worried when somebody goes in for a surgical procedure. Yeah.

But he was also proud of me and very supportive. So he helped me care me, helped care me after the surgery. So it's been all went well. Oh, are you touched by donation in any way, shape or form or?

No, not. I mean, I haven't known anybody who's needed an organ transplant. And so the person you saved, do we know now? Since we just had the surgery.

No, I don't. Actually, it was a non-directed donation. So I just gave it up to whoever matched who needed it. And all I knew is that it went to Florida.

And the recipient, of course, has the option of contacting me. I wrote a letter that was passed along through the Transplant Center. But of course, because of location privacy, that's all I can know is where the kidney went. So they have the option of contacting me.

I gave them my email address. And I hope to hear from them. But of course, it's their option if they don't want to. I mean, never know.

Well, that sounds like another podcast episode. You're going to have to keep this in the loop this time. Yeah, definitely checking my email. I hope to hear from them.

We certainly hope you hear from them as well. Can you talk to us a little bit about just the medical workup that you had to go through in preparation for this? Oh, yeah, definitely. Yeah, after it was over, I talked to the social worker.

And she said it may be as low as 15%, 20% of the people who come in looking to donate actually get through all the medical clearance. Right? Very thorough. So yeah, I had to go down for two days.

Because I live about 90 miles away from UCLA. They offered to put me up in a hotel overnight. So I wouldn't have to drive back and forth. But I did have to do a 24-hour urine collection.

I had a chest x-ray CT scan. I had a blood draw. And I couldn't believe it when the full bottom kept pulling out vials. There were 25 vials on the individual.

Wow. That's a bunch. And I had to talk to a social worker to make sure I had the resources to take the time off work and support at home. Right.

You mentioned that only 15% of the people, that just highlights the need or kidney donation of an organization in general. So as far as the waiting list, I actually looked up this data this morning. So this is current. There are 114,000 people on the National Waiting List for an organ.

And 95,000 of that 114 are waiting on a kidney. Wow. And then the average wait time for a kidney is, I think, somewhere between three to five years. Because kidneys are based on primarily wait time.

So how long you've been listed. Far and away, the urgent need for organs in America are kidneys. So this is why living donation becomes so popular in tech and such a person. I could see why.

That's a long wait. I believe they're able to find better matches with kidneys. So specific when it comes to matching. So you have patients that are sensitized or highly sensitized.

So there are very few donors out there for certain people. So that's a big issue in kidney donation. And when they're living donor, they have time to test that and match it to the best possible recipient. So that working gets the best longevity and help the most.

Wow. I can't wait to hear the other side of your story, Jennifer. I'm hoping that if you do hear back that we get to share that with you. But talk to me about emotions and what you were thinking.

So you had to answer the questions and you had to do the blood work and doctors visits and then coordinating with work. So were you just, yes, this is the right thing to do at each step. Like was there ever hesitation or was this like, I'm all in? Yeah, there was a lot of thinking because of course you don't want to do anything that's going to compromise your own health in the long term.

And so I did a lot of research. I did a lot of watching videos online of people who had gone through the living donor process and doing a lot of reading on just what the long term effects might be. And from what I read, overall, there aren't a lot of long term known medical problems that living donors have. And because of the screening, they're all in the best of health going in.

So you have that going for you also. And really the only lifestyle change I've had to make is I just can't take ibuprofen anymore and I have to switch it out for a time when all. And other than that, I'm completely back to my regular life and driving in a network. It's so great.

That's amazing. The only problem is I wish I could do it again, but that's the only problem. Oh my goodness. And so you talked about work, how easy or how hard was that to coordinate and then talk about that timeline.

So how long did you stay in the hospital? When did you go home? And then when did you resume to normal Jennifer life? I think I got about three weeks notice because they had to present my case.

They have a transplant committee at the hospital. But once everything was cleared, I think I got about three weeks notice for my surgery date. And I had been keeping my manager informed all along that I was thinking about doing it. And I had to take the time off for all the testing and everything too.

They were excited about it and I didn't have any issue at all with time off taking an medical leave. I was wondering just for my personal knowledge as well as our listeners, but the actual surgical procedure. So was this like just a laparoscopic procedure? How long did it take?

How long until you were up and walking again? Yeah, I was laparoscopic, which also was a big help in going into it knowing that the recovery time would be a lot shorter. There's always the chance they might have to do an open incision, but I was laparoscopic. So I have three little incisions along my left side on the front and then maybe about a four inch incision around the bikini line where they take the kidney out.

And I went in on May 2nd and my surgery was in the afternoon so that they could fly the kidney to Florida overnight and the recipient had their surgery the following morning. So I was awake. Probably I think it was around 60m. I think the procedure is around three or four hours.

I just stayed overnight in the hospital and was discharged the next day. Next day? Wow. Yeah.

So by the next morning, it had me up walking around very, very slowly, but I was up to the next day. So how did you feel? Like you woke up, you know, you did this great thing that somebody has a second chance because of this act that you took. So then like tell me your emotions.

Tell me what was going through your mind. Yeah, yeah, it was very emotional. And I was mostly grateful that I was able to do it. We're grateful for you.

Yeah. I'm sure a lot of people that listen and have questions about is financial implications. So can you tell us a little bit about any costs that were incurred or lack of costs are kind of how that worked and you're understanding? 100% of all of the medical care was covered through the recipient's insurance.

So all of the pre screening, all the testing, all the x-rays, all the hospital stays, surgery, there was not a single penny I had to pay for any of that. Wow. I guess there'd be some follow-up included as well. Yes.

Yeah. I have to go back in six months and they're going to do screening to make sure that my remaining kidney is functioning fine and picking up the slack. And I believe I go back on a one year and two year anniversary to the place where I had my surgery. And then other than that, I would just follow up with my regular doctor.

So Jennifer, it sounds like from what everything you're saying that if you could, you would do this again. Yeah, yeah, I definitely would. And I know there's also a living donor option for livers and that may be something I look into in the future. Oh my God.

I feel like you could do partial. I'm not doing anything over here, Louisiana. It is. You're so kind.

So we asked about your husband. What about like your circle of friends? We heard about work and they were supportive, but did anybody say why? Anybody question?

Not really. No, they're just mostly shocked, I think. You know, why would you put yourself through a procedure that doesn't benefit you in any way? Oh, but it does.

Yeah. That's part they don't understand. I don't think entirely, but yeah, it does. So I work with volunteers and the community.

So donor family members who come and tell their loved one story recipient who's waiting. So is that something that is on the horizon for you? You don't, and you tell your story with the work and procurement agency near you or? Yeah, I would definitely like to do that.

I've been in contact with UCLA and I let them know that, you know, if they have anybody who's considering being the living donor and would like to speak, somebody who's gone through it, and I'm always open to doing that. And they had an education class that I had to go through as part of the process where they got a bunch of potential donors together. And, you know, if I could speak to them since that kind of environment or, you know, anything at all, I would really love to help and get back and break awareness. Yeah.

Well, we're in the end of the donation world. So if there's anything in the media or trending on social media, like I always stop and watch it. So before the procedure, was that something with you? Like, you started researching and things like, would you watch anything and everything like donation related?

I did. Yeah. And they actually gave me a website called the chain org. And that is, it's about a 30 minute documentary.

And it actually was based on an altruistic donor and the chain of donations that started from that donor were three other people got kidney transplants as a result of the one donor starting the chain. And so I believe that something similar to that happened in my case. I haven't gotten any details on that. But if somebody needs a kidney and has a family member that would like to donate, but they're not a match, if you can get somebody to start a chain by donating to that first person, then their family member continues to donate, but their kidneys instead of going to their family member goes on to somebody else and maybe that person also has somebody who would like to donate, but isn't a match and it just keeps going on.

So you can help multiple people just by one donation. Amazing. I was doing some research on living donation and came across a website operated by UNOS, which is a network for organ sharing. And at TransplantLiving.org, and I saw that they have a whole section on learning about living donation, how to start the process, the steps involved, how to contact your local transplant centers to see if they have a living donor program or a paired kidney exchange program like you talked about.

But just for anyone listening, I just wanted to highlight that. TransplantLiving.org is what you said? Yes, TransplantLiving.org. You know, when we talk about kidney donation and kidney transplant, people are familiar with dialysis, the failure.

So they think that, well, if you go into kidney failure, then you can get on dialysis and it's no problem and you can live without a kidney, when in fact the mortality rate on dialysis is much higher than you would expect. I can't just throw out a number out of my head, but the life expectancy on dialysis is pretty short. So kidney transplantation for those patients on dialysis is the end goal of treatment in most cases. Dialysis just provides a bridge for those patients who wish to be transplanted.

Dialysis is a tough road. It's a tough life to go here three times a week for hours. So you know, out of your day, disrupts your life unbelievably. I just wanted to make a mention about that, just to do a little education on the true need for kidneys in this country.

Right. So Jennifer, any advice? I mean, you just walk through it. You just went through all the steps.

So any advice, like somebody's listening out there, just like you were. We love that you used the gift of life as a resource as well when you were researching. What would you tell someone who's thinking about doing what you did? Well, I would think perhaps for everyone, depending on your resources or your physical condition.

But even if you can just do more than you're doing today, I think I helped inspire my husband. He's looking into being a blood donor. I've been on him forever. I think I might have put him to shame a little bit.

So now he finally made an appointment to go even to donate blood. I think this is what that can really help somebody. And for me, the recovery period, maybe the first seven or eight days, it was really tender in my abdomen, of course. But after that, after about two weeks, I would say I was almost back to normal just up and around and walking.

To me, it was a small price to pay to help somebody else regain their health for many, many years. Wow. Such a positive message that even if you can't do something as big as what you did, just encourage others to get up and do something to help someone. Yeah, you live what we say here on the gift of life.

One person can make a difference. You're doing that. Go out and do something you don't normally do. Well, Jennifer, you did it.

You're walking testimonial. And we hope to visit with you more in the future as your story continues to unfold. How incredible. And we hope that this starts maybe a chain reaction for making life happen.

An incredible story. I appreciate you. Thank you so much for sharing. Thank you.

And I'll definitely keep you updated if I hear more. The time has come in the gift of life podcast and visit with Sal. And I'm going to talk about self-fulfilling prophecies. Oh, Adam.

What do you think about that, Adam? I think I'm a victim of that, obviously. There you go. I think we all are.

You know, the things that we tell ourselves is generally not what we would really like to tell ourselves, but it's what everybody else is saying about it because we listen to that outside influence. And then generally we take it on as our own. And the next thing you know, we're telling ourselves we're not worthy of something or we're fitting some sort of stereotype or we're angry with ourselves and we never stop to say, women, what am I doing to me here now? Because I'm listening to what you're saying about me, Lori.

And that's really all good now. Well, then I'm okay. Adam, we got a problem. Oh, I say, I think that's we crave approval just because we're social creatures, you know, so we listen to those outside influences and those opinions of ourselves and we take them on as our own view of ourselves.

That's right. I could be trucking along. I'm a great day until I come across somebody who maybe is not a Lori fan and then it ruins the rest of my hour. Yeah.

I try to turn it. I don't know Adam. You put a lot of emphasis on what others think when in the real, real world it should be. What do I think about me?

And again, that takes some practice to do that. You know, one of the things we talked here a little bit earlier was when I get up in the morning, I look in the mirror and I sure I can see everything that I think I would like to change. But at the same time, I have learned over the years that I always give myself a smile and say it's all going to be good. And you know, when you start your day out that way, no matter how down it can go from there, you've still given yourself that extra lift.

Yeah. And you've fooled your brain into thinking, oh, well, everything is good. Yeah. And when you start doing that on a regular basis, and I'm not talking about being narcissistic or vain, I'm talking about just being realistic with yourself.

Then when people say things that are somewhat hurtful or you hear them talking about you behind your back, you just can't, you say, oh well, that's their opinion. It doesn't matter. And that's what counts. Is your little reserve?

Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. It kind of spurs me to go out and do more like, yeah, I'm pretty wrong. Yeah.

I think that's a great discipline to have to be able to get up and do something like that for yourself every day. And just to get up and complete a task. Yeah. A lot of people, I've read people say, one thing, I make sure is I get up and I make my bed every morning and that starts my day because of my task and feeling of accomplishment.

Yes, absolutely. They just build on that throughout the day. That's a great strategy. We have a crazy household, lots of kids, different destinations.

We got to pick up different bags. And so we always pause as we're driving along driveway. And so we always list the things that we're grateful for. So the teachers in our lives, friends in our lives, our home, our family, because no matter what happens out there today, we're all going to be here together in this safe space.

And there's love and laughter and fun there. What a great message for your kids. Kind of like you in the mirror. That's how we start the day and hopefully it'll be a good day.

Yeah. You know, speaking about a mirror, I will bring this in one day. It's a poem about the man in the mirror. You're going to bring the mirror.

Oh, no, I got one right here. Take a look and see. There you go. These puffy eyes.

Okay. But it's a great poem. It's talking about the man in the mirror. It's all about it comes back to it.

In the very end, it's all about you. Really? It's not about all these other people and their opinions. It's all about how am I okay with me?

You learn a little bit about Adam there? You want to tell me about him later? Well, I think he's probably pretty dug on good. What are you doing?

Yeah. Obviously. So, it's my eyes here, right? So your favorite podcast person now would probably be...

Well, you know, there's a really tight race and it's between a lady named Sally. Oh, she made it. Another name, Lori. He likes this.

He really likes this. Yes, I think so. That's how we're going to start the day. All right, we like that.

All right, Sally, that's fun. We're going to do more of these on each episode of The Gifted Life. We live, we learn, and Sally helps guide us. So, more to come here on The Gifted Life.

Every episode of The Gifted Life, we honor a hero, today's hero, Dion Pennywell. And we hear from Dion's family. There aren't enough words to describe Dion or how much he was loved and is missed. From his smile to his laughter, I know there are more than a few who wish they can experience it again.

And his death three lives were saved. It is our prayer that the recipients of his organs are afforded the opportunity to live with a newfound appreciation of just how precious life is. You live on in our hearts, rest in love, Dion. And now we pause and say thank you to Dion for the gift of life.

And our question and answer segment, this question actually comes to us via a community event that we had in Louisiana. It was a discussion about the donation process and a family mentioned feeling rushed at the time of donation. So we thought it was a great opportunity to learn here on the podcast and to bring that question here where we have a mental health professional, where we have someone clinical who's been at the bedside, who's been through the process. So maybe we could all learn a little bit about what that is.

So this was a community event. It was a church event. We want people to have healthy conversations and that's the issue that was brought up. So at the time of donation, they felt that that was rushed.

So if you can kind of walk us through, you deal with the donor family's salary from that perspective of what they're going through. And then Adam, as far as I'm clinical, what's happening from medical standpoint in order to make life happen. I think part of the problem is this that at a time of an unexpected death, people are putting into such chaos during a crisis situation that their mind can only process just so much information. And usually when it's unexpected like this, no one knows what to do.

I mean, their mind is going all sorts of different places. So they cannot process on that one particular issue of talking with you all. Exactly. And in the case of organ donation, these unfortunate deaths are all sudden.

That's how you are eligible to become an organ donor. And almost all cases is that you had a sudden neurologic injury, a brain injury that led to your death. So all these events are sudden, they're tragic. When a patient has been declared brain dead, and so they are at that point deceased, there's a narrow window to complete that consent process.

And it's really important that we go through that and that the family is informed and that there's a full informed consent done. So they know what they're saying yes to. And then also there's a very thorough questionnaire that has to be done with the family involving the medical history and social history. So those are all things that we have to complete with a detailed accuracy before we move forward with the process.

And in these patients, the organs are viable for only so long. And the family of the person has just received the worst news that a loved one can receive, you know, that you've lost a loved one. So they are in a fog of a sort. And it's hard for them to process all this information that they're getting onto something that I saw in caring for critically ill patients in the hospital before I was involved with the organization.

When the physician goes out to speak with a family, people only take away so much because they're dealing with so much in this time. Well, in the brain, basically just shuts down everything except for what's going on right here and now. Right. And the families that come to me, they're ready to volunteer.

And so one of the things that I hear across the board is that that time went so fast and I don't remember a face, I don't remember a name, I don't remember exactly what came out of their mouths. I just remember I felt comfort. I knew donation was a good thing if we had that conversation. I know Adam, that's something that you push as well, make sure that you talk to your loved ones about that.

And we're having this community discussion about the donation process. Another thing that came up was your perspective at that time. So the loved one has passed away going to be an organ donor. Are you the next of kin?

Or are you a friend of a friend sitting in the waiting room or at home waiting for news? That changed how they felt about donation as well from their seat. That's right. That's a perception of time.

So the thing I'm taking away is having those conversations with your family of the utmost importance ahead of time. Yes. So that they know your wishes. Yes.

That's one thing that I found working at the bedside with patients and families is that so often the family just isn't 100% sure what the patient would want. It's a huge stress on them at already stressful time for them to have to question themselves, is this the right decision? Is this what my loved one would want? Just having those conversations ahead of time is something that I stress when I'm out in the community talking to people.

Have those conversations ahead of time. It doesn't have to be a lengthy conversation. You let them know what you want. And also find out what they would want.

So if God forbid that time ever comes in your life, that stress isn't there. Yeah. We have a volunteer. She said I had a 10 second conversation because a screenshot of it all from the OMB and my daughter said what's an organ donor in a 10 second conversation.

But I knew what she wanted and that gives me comfort and peace. It doesn't take a long time, but it's important to have those conversations. So that was a great discussion, guys. Maybe you have a topic you'd like us to cover, info at lopa.org.

And that'll do it, folks, for this episode of The Gifted Life. We want to thank you so much to Jennifer for sharing her story with us. Amazing. Such an inspiration to hear about her journey.

That's right. It makes me want to go out and do something, right? I hear that on the podcast sometimes from time to time, right? You don't get out and do something?

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. And I want to remind everyone out there that you are really worthy. Please keep that in mind.

Especially you, Adam. Thank you for being here with us on The Gifted Life. It's a pleasure having you. And scare you too much, right?

Not too bad. Yeah, Adam does a great job in Louisiana helping our donor families and working with us out in the community to educate. And his big thing is big takeaway is have that conversation. I have the conversation.

Yeah. You know how you just roll with everything. Really, Joey's going to have to watch out. Watch out, yeah.

So now she's your favorite, right? I knew it was going to happen. But at the end of the episode, you just edged you out there. All right.

Thank you, Adam. I'll get back on top. I love it. All right, so go out and do something today that you don't normally do to help us make life happen.

We know you can do it and we appreciate you. This is a production of the Louisiana Organ for Cerman Agency, or LOPA. Gifted Life is hosted by Lori Steele, Joey Buudro, and Sally Gentry. Our producers are Kirsten Hines and Shalom Caraway.

We are recorded, engineered, and mixed in our Metery, Louisiana studio by Troy Perez.