This is a global player original podcast. Hello and welcome to You're Wrong About ADHD. I'm Katie Brethwick. And I'm Sam Pittis.
Coming up, we're going to be talking about ADHD coaching today. But first, we wanted to share some very exciting news. We have been nominated for a British podcast award. It is really exciting, but I have to say, I was quite shocked.
It's really shocking. It's quite amazing, isn't it? It's a complete surprise and totally thrilling. And I'm really looking forward to the night.
We've been nominated in the Wellbeing category, and it's so great to be nominated at the British podcast award. It's a really big deal. Yeah, yeah. You couldn't normally say this.
I think on an ADHD podcast, it's OK to say. What you're going to say is that going to an award ceremony is not my idea of a good time. It's just going to be in hell and there. You're not coming.
Yeah. Maybe just you and Ellen are producing. Oh my God. Oh my God.
No, it'll be amazing. All the other people who've been nominated are also fabulous. And it'll be lovely to hang out with them and schmooze. But it's a night to celebrate us and the fact that we have come on this journey together.
This is time to basically have a drink, perhaps, and have some fun. And also celebrate our amazing producer, Helen. He does the most fantastic job of this all together. But I have to talk to other people though.
They might be a little bit of that, yeah. Do you know what? I've taken some convincing. We have talked about this already.
And I think, honestly, the thousands of people who've supported us, who've got in touch with us, who've been really supportive of these podcasts, who've shared their stories with us, I think, do you know what? But they say, I'll go to the awards. Oh, gosh, Sam, that's, yeah. And that's completely true.
It's about turning up and representing. I think, you know, it is about putting ADHD in that room, actually, all of those very, very influential people who will be there on the night, having ADHD on that roster is a big deal for us and for all the people listening. I think, you know, it gets the conversation into the room. And that's a really big thing, I think.
It's a big deal to be nominated. I'm really excited about it. I'm just going to have to steal myself to have some social engagement. Today, though, when we talk about today.
So today we are talking about coaching, which I'm a massive advocate of. I've seen how positive it's been for members of my family. But so far, I haven't embarked on a coaching journey myself, but you have, haven't you? What was that like for you?
I've done it twice. I don't think I got the best out of it. And that was probably down to me. In general, coaching is about offering practical help with things like organization, planning, time management.
The first time I spoke to ADHD coach was just after I was diagnosed. And I found that really helpful. I think having someone to share with, someone to buddy up with, someone to be accountable to, someone who can encourage me, I found that really useful. You know, just after diagnosis wondering, what is this?
How do I manage it? Having someone who can sort of get alongside me and say, you know, this makes sense. Hang on a minute. What can you do about some of these problems?
What strategies can you put in place? I have one more recently after I finished my therapy. And, you know, from no fault of the coach, I don't think I got the best out of it. And I think it's, you know, I'm quite organized.
I've talked about this before. And I'm quite resistant, I think, having to try new things and making practical changes. Why does the system sound? All right.
Making practical changes means unpicking. The systems you've already got. Now, some of those systems might be really damaging as we've talked about. You know, some of the things that we have done over the years to manage our ADHD might be really problematic for me.
They definitely have been. But trying to change those habits can be really hard. And I think when I did coaching the second time, I think I was a bit too resistant to it. And that's an ongoing ADHD battle.
It's that, okay, I want to make a change. Somebody's told me what I need to do to make the change. Sounds great. But have I got the motivation?
Have I got the reasoning to do it? Can I make myself do it? And I think I'd probably like to look at doing coaching again. I've got for a third time.
I think so. But I think maybe what I need to think about is what I'd like to get out of it. Is it something that you'd consider? Well, I want to ask you a question.
What, because I've never done therapy. I've never done coaching. And I think one of the barriers to it for me and I think that puts me off is doing it with a stranger. Is that an issue?
The fact that you've got somebody who doesn't know you, who you've never met before your first coaching session. What's that like? That's a good question. I think because I've done so much therapy over the years, I think I'm sort of used to that situation with therapy.
It was certainly a case of being a crisis point and sort of going, I desperately need help. This person is there. You had no choice. I think with coaching, it's slightly less intense.
Certainly my experience is it's been slightly less intense. So you go to somebody who's offering to help you get organised and be practical. It doesn't, to me, it didn't feel like quite such a vulnerable position. But yeah, you need to build a relationship.
You need to trust that person. I think absolutely. I think finding the right coach or the right therapist, for that matter, is really important because of someone you can have a rapport with, someone you can trust. You're not going to be mates, obviously, but it's someone who you can listen to.
You know, somebody who, when they give you advice, you're not going, I'm not really sure about you. Exactly. I haven't had that experience. I haven't had that experience.
I had to trust my good relationships with. I just think it was a bit difficult for me to unpick some of the stuff I'd already done. Do you have to be ready for coaching? Do you think you were ready the first time, the second time you did it?
That's a really good question. That makes sense, doesn't it? I think maybe it is about seeing where you are. I think certainly for me, I needed to get my therapy done.
One of the reasons I stopped in coaching and then did therapy and went back to the coaching was I realised I had some things I needed to resolve before I could... Did the coach tell you that? Or did you realise that? It all sort of came at the same time because I was still seeing a psychiatrist about medication, which obviously didn't work for me.
So it sort of was all part of the same process of going right. Hang on, there's other things going on for me here that I need to look at and work on before I can start. So I'm taking practical steps. It's almost like I needed to manage my mental health first and then I could look at managing the practical steps.
Because you can't really, you can't get into that coaching space of being ready to help yourself until you're in that position. Really? Can you? You've got to be stronger and stable and then you can start to implement practical steps.
I think that's a really important point. I think... That's the question I'd like to ask, is that what is the right point to start coaching? And the other thing I think is what is the difference between coaching and therapy?
Even though I've done them, there's quite a fine line. We've got just the person to answer that question. We'll be speaking to Stephanie Camilary, founder of the ADHD Advocate and Certified ADHD Coach in a Moment. Hello, Stephanie.
It's great to have you join us. I think probably the first question from my end, and maybe this is something that it's really important to drill down on before we have any further conversation, is what is the difference between coaching and therapy? Well, it's an interesting question because a lot of therapy now is becoming a bit of a hybrid. And actually, I think that says a lot about how effective coaching is.
That therapy and therapists are now kind of using that in their toolkit because particularly for ADHDers, coaching is really effective. As a coach, it's more like a partnership. You're partnering with the person that you're coaching. You're not the advisor.
You're not someone that necessarily is telling someone what to do because you're the expert. When coaching your client, basically, you're honoring them as the expert in their own life. They are the expert. They know themselves.
But when it comes to ADHD, it's usually a case of knowing what to do but not doing what you know. And the coaching's really helpful in helping ADHDers get clearer about what they want and holding them accountable. But yeah, coaching's very much about looking forward, setting, creating actions, moving forward, and the client being the one that comes up with the agenda and the strategies and things that are going to work for them. Is it important that the coach has ADHD or already deep understanding of ADHD if they're dealing with somebody who has ADHD?
Well, I can only speak personally, I guess. I think it is very important because there's a certain ADHDers where not only are thinkers and when you're coaching someone, particularly other ADHDers, I find that my ADHD brain can follow them. Quite often, ADHDers will be apologizing. They come to coaching and they apologize if they feel like they've gone off on tangent.
But for me, I know perfectly well where they've gone because my brain works that same way. And so I think it's interesting because when I first started coaching training, Adcath, the founder of Adcovica, work, he described coaching as like a bit of a dance. You're dancing together. And definitely when two ADHDers, you can follow each other.
Whereas I think it would be definitely maybe a bit overwhelming for neurotypical to be able to keep up with an ADHDer at times. But again, that's only my own experience. And there may be some very good neurotypical coaches out there for ADHDers. Are we talking essentially practical advice when it comes to coaching?
I mean, I've had a bit of coaching myself, which I'll talk about in a minute, but is it about setting a plan, timing things out, making sure your diary is organised, or is there a sub-emotional support as well? What's interesting is that a lot of ADHDers will come to coaching and they want to create routines. Or they need to like get on top of this habit. They need to do this thing.
And actually, what I've learned over time is that it's more important that the mindset piece is dealt with first in terms of the ADHDer really understanding, you know, how the ADHD manifests. And not just understanding what it looks like for them, but accepting. The acceptance piece is crucial because if an ADHDer doesn't accept their needs, then they're never going to communicate to get the map and the ADHD will just keep trying to fit in and keep failing. So yet coaching, I would say that in terms of the most effective ADHD coaching, it's about helping that ADHDer really not just understand their ADHD, but embrace it and accept that, okay, this is the way my brain works and this is what I'll need to do in order to get this thing that I want.
And I'm going to have to communicate that and risk my RSD, rejection sensitivity. We do a lot of work around helping ADHDers overcome RSD. Yeah, can you coach someone who doesn't want to be coached? Do they have to come to you open to that process?
Yeah, look, you can't force an ADHD to do anything. And you know, even ADHD. I will not advise that. Right.
No. Do you know what? You say you can't force someone to do something. I don't think I got the best out of my coaching.
I had a coaching couple of times. Firstly, after I was recently diagnosed and that I found quite useful, you know, emotional support. And then more recently, and again, it wasn't the fault of the coach, but I think what I realized was, so I'm actually quite organized. I'm hyperorganized and I think it's been a reaction to my ADHD and it's about managing staying on top of my own anxiety.
I think what I realized with my coaching was I'm so attached to the way that I manage. I'm so attached to the way that I do things and I keep on top of myself. But I'm picking that and finding a new way of doing things, perhaps, so too challenging. Yeah, look, you're type of ADHD and I do coach a few that are very process oriented.
And for me, my main goal with them is to not make the method the goal. It's not making the method the goal. What's the goal? What do you actually want?
So many ADHDers get hyperfocused and stuck in those weeds of like the right way to do things or, you know, they love the process or it's a lot less confronting to work on the process than it is, you know, a goal that you actually want. So my one of my big roles as coach is to ensure that we are kind of sending the right standard in terms of let's just see what is it that we want to do and keeping our eye and eye wide, keeping that perspective and keeping that ADHD out of those weeds and moving the forward. So for what's their goal? Because there's so many issues.
They love process and love with great diary and now AI and new app, you know, look what I can do and it's like, hang on, what about the goal? What about what are we doing to actually move forward? What progress that we made? So yeah, quite often I need to kind of pull them back out and get them back on track.
How long does a typical coaching process take? I mean, if you were talking about people getting stuck in the weeds on average, how long would you expect to spend with a client? It really depends on know this is not very helpful, but it really does depend. I've got some clients that they're so coachable.
It's as soon as it's like with ADHD is it's like we're building a puzzle and there's these pieces that are missing and with some ADHD is once those missing pieces, once they're given these pieces, they can finally see the picture. It all makes sense. And those ADHD's can literally put these pictures in their bag, you know, got that picture, put that in that bag, you know, another one. And then literally it's just a matter of them pulling out that picture whenever they need it.
It's there forever, you know, so they can literally reprogram why are and be on their way. Others getting their way a lot more. Others don't operate that way. It's very much a matter of out of sight, out of mind.
And then, you know, that will take a bit longer because then we need to also work out processes and things to put in place where they can keep out of their own way and make sure that these things are still running. If that makes sense. So it does depend. But the programs I usually coach between three to six months, but again, it also depends on what's going on for that ADHD or in terms of, you know, maybe they've got a family as well.
Maybe they're a parent and they're an entrepreneur, you know, in which case we need to work on quite a few things there. And so it is going to take long as it all depends on what they're trying to achieve. Is anybody ever uncoachable completely beyond help? I wouldn't say beyond help, I wouldn't say beyond help, but in terms of coaching and this is why it's so important that ADHD coaches are certified, you know, particularly with the International Coaching Federation, because we're bound by code of ethics, you know, and we're taught when someone's coachable and when they're not.
And this is the issue is you can do some real damage. If you don't know what you're doing, if you're not coaching in an ICF style, which if you're coaching in true ICF style, you're never going to be leading anyone into something. That makes sense. Because again, it's completely led by that ADHD in terms of their agenda in terms of the things that they want to try on.
But we're taught, you know, we're taught to recognize when a client may need therapy as opposed to coaching, you know, or go back to their psychiatrist. And a good coach, a good certified ADHD coach in particular will know. Maybe that ADHD is just way too overwhelmed, you know, and you can tell pretty quickly because when you try and get, you know, try and get them to get clear about something or try to get them to work towards the goal, they're stuck, you know, they're just too overwhelmed. You know, maybe they're having trouble kind of just literally getting through the day, in which case, yeah, you want them kind of doing therapy or back to their psychiatrist or vice, but we do take a holistic approach.
Us could, you know, our certified ADHD coaches. We work closely with the psychiatrist and the therapist so we can provide the best possible support in from all sites. I want to touch on something you said earlier. I don't know exactly that word you said, but you sort of said that it is always led by the person with ADHD.
So you're not, I totally understand the reason why you're not making suggestions. You're not putting ideas on that person's edge. You're not guiding the conversation and they're getting out of it, what they want to get out of it. But I, one of the things that just sort of alarmed that in my head, as someone with ADHD is someone who is sat in front of a coach and had that conversation.
I don't really know what the problem is and I don't really know what I need to do to fix it. So how does that work? How does somebody who doesn't really know whose head is all over the place and doesn't know where to start? How are they the guide?
That's again why it's really important. You have a certified ADHD coach because we've got the lens, you know, and experienced ADHD coach. You know, we know kind of where you're getting in your way. We know the kind of things that you will need to do, but the approach we take is a coaching approach.
We're not going to lead you, but the questions that I'll ask you, like I'll kind of give you space at the beginning to talk and process because a lot of ADHD is, as you said, they come in with their heads for, you know, they don't know which way to start. You know, they, they usually haven't literally stopped at all that particular moment where they're like in front of the coach. So we actually give space, you know, sometimes it may be, okay, I can see you're a bit frenzy. I can see you're fully overwhelmed.
Maybe let's just take one minute. Let's just stop. Sometimes, you know, I might need that minute too. It's great for both of us.
Let's just stop and just breathe and just try and kind of clear, you know, and kind of regulate. And then, you know, I'll ask them, you know, what they've been up to, what's going on, and then an ADHD needs to be able to process, you know, to kind of get clear. And it's through, you know, we give them a bit of time to do that. And then as an experienced coach, I might hear something within that, and then maybe ask them a question on that thing.
And then usually, you know, with the right kind of questions coming from the HD lens, something that needs to be worked on will be will present itself. And then as I said, if I coach, my goal is then to try and get an agreement on what to talk about, what to coach around. And then even further than that, try and create a smart outcome. Because like you said, what we do, like, well, you know, they start way out here.
And my goal, you know, as a coach, I need to try and get more specific, the measure, what's the metric of success, you know, is it achievable, you know, is it relevant to your why, you know, you know, the main goal. Obviously, in terms of actions, time, time, time, time, time, because I say ADHD is if we don't have that deadline, then yeah, we've passed all over the place. It just doesn't get, doesn't get done. It's so interesting what you're saying, because you're obviously your understanding of ADHD and the challenges of ADHD is very obvious and very clear.
Anybody listening to this who has recognized the value of coaching and wants to go and look for a coach, you mentioned earlier that you need to be certified. That's a really, really important thing. Where do they start? Where do they start that journey of looking for their coach?
Yeah. So we've got at the ADHD advocate. So I created the HCI advocate about we're now seven to you know, and you know, our coaches are at Calcerta certified. There's about two or three training providers recognized by the ICF as being qualified, you know, good enough to train ADHD coaches and Adcar, I think was the first one.
And I went with them because I used to be a lawyer. And so when I trained to be a coach, I wanted, you know, the most regulated, the best, you know, coaching certificate I could get. And David Goodwork is like the father of ADHD coaching. And so yeah, the HCI advocate coming to us, we've got the Adka certified coaches.
There's also a directory of Adka coaches. So when I first started during the pandemic, I got all the HCI certified coaches in the UK in a group. And so there's a directory, HD coaches, UK directory. So that's something that we can share as well.
Great. That's a really good place for people to start to go and find somebody specific to their needs. Yeah. Yeah.
At the very least, the life coach directory has got the ICF, you know, any one or the life coach directory has to be ICF certified. At the very least, that's what you want to look at to. Talking about specifics, we're talking about, you know, goals and actions, using hypothetical situations. Obviously, what are some of the concrete examples that you can give of people you've worked with, where they've received help?
What are some of the things that you help people with, you know, in day to day life? Oh, gosh. A lot. I mean, I guess I coached in a very ADHD intensive way over the years.
And I've had the privilege of being the heads of, you know, from students, kids all the way up to film directors, CEOs of financial institutions, parents, I mean coaching. If you even just look on our website and success stories, you'll see kind of the things that we do. But for instance, the other day, I had a client that was a manager in his work and he didn't get a bonus. And he deserves to kind of be able to get that bonus and pay rise and get the recognition.
A lot of ADHD is, you see, I'm very good at promoting themselves. So what we do in coaching, because they set such a low standard for themselves, ADHD is due, right? Because all the negative messaging, you know, our self-worth is pretty low. And even though we're perfectionists at the bar high, when it comes to selling ourselves, we're the last ones, right?
To put ourselves forward, everyone else comes first. So what I do with my employers, I ask them, okay, you know, what would you do if you were the, you know, whatever the name of the person is, say it's Ben. Say your Ben Ben who wanted more, needed more, expected more. If you were that Ben that needed more, wanted more, expected more in this situation, what would you ask for?
What do you think you would deserve? And just by kind of adopting that mindset, because, you know, I say to you, our state of D is naturally done. A lot of us, unfortunately, our narrative is, I don't matter. That's how we get through life.
That's how often we've gotten through life. I'm fine. I'm fine. I don't matter, right?
It's just about, you know, meeting everyone's needs and getting on with it. But I make my ADHD as set a high standard, ask themselves from that place, what it is they want. And then I coach them around it, we do role plays, so we role play the conversation, and yeah, he had his performance appraisal, and I'm finding out kind of how that went. But we do that type of thing in coaching as well, helping people raise the standard.
And be brave, be brave, because so much of life and achieving those goals is about being brave, and that's hard, isn't it? You've had a lifetime of criticism and lack of self-worth to get out there and be brave and believe in yourself. Yeah, that's exactly it. I coach a lot of university students and high school students.
Oh, that's such a key. It's such a key age, isn't it? I'm mum to a son, university student with ADHD, and I know how hard it is. I recognize it in myself.
I know how hard it was. For me, when I went to university, the wheels fell off. The wheels fell off. And so I completely understand how, and he has a coach and his coach has been amazing.
And she essentially puts the wheels back on him once a week. And it's a fantastic, you know, I was, I'll be honest, I was a little bit skeptical of the whole thing when it first started. And I, so was he. And for the first sort of two or three weeks, you know, he kind of went along because he had to.
And then over time, obviously that coaching relationship developed, and he could see the changes that it brought. And at the end of every term, he'd say, I don't think I need to go back to her next term. And a couple of weeks in to the new term, he'd go, actually could I possibly, because he has come to it all by himself. He's realized how amazing that relationship has been and how much it's enabled him to learn.
I sometimes wonder how much the coach is playing the role of parent, actually. Because a lot of what you, a lot of what you've said just now is about learning. And sometimes it's about gaps in our learning, or maybe we did know it before and we've forgotten it and we need to relearn it. And we're having to reprogram our brains again to know how to do this.
Yeah, look, very much for us ADHD is out of sight out of mind. That's another thing. Until we have that we struggle with, particularly when it comes to, you know, the main thing, right? The why.
And again, that's another thing that our coaches do is to be able to put that insight and in mind, you know, other things that we do, you know, particularly with the kids in terms of their learning is I came up with something called VAT, right? Not VATs and yes, there's the HD tax, but this is specific to things that we need in order to engage with something more. So you got to make it visible. There's very accessible and tangible.
And I was training at school yesterday in Birmingham, actually. With the most dedicated team of staff was just like, so touching actually and inspiring to see how dedicated they were to these students, you know, all with SEM. But I did a training with them, taught them about RSD and taught them strategies like VAT. And actually one of the teachers is a woodworking teacher because at the end of it, I asked everyone, you know, what are you going to do differently?
So when these kids come in tomorrow, what are you taking away and going to try out, you know, to help these kids more? And the woodworking teacher said, because he understood that achievements for our SED is outside of mind, we can achieve. But then once we achieve the thing, it's gone, you know, we don't kind of build ourselves up from these achievements because we forget we've done the thing. So each time we're going to do something, it's like we're doing it for the first time.
We don't have that confidence that we've done it. It's really annoying. Oh, please raise the weight. It is.
It's really annoying. Exactly. You know what this woodworking teacher came up with, which was brilliant. He said, oh, these kids, some of them just do amazing work.
And, you know, when I give them a new task to do, they think they can't do it. But what I've learned today is they need to see what they've done, you know, they need to see, that needs to be in front of them when they go to start solving new. And so he's going to pull out all of the students, you know, previous projects. Yeah, actual, an actual physical representation of how far they've already come.
And that they can look at all the way through the lesson. That's so great. Yeah, that's great. That's it.
Just like that. And that's going to make such a massive difference because this particular school is all about achievements, you know, that these kids should be proud of their achievements. But they were missing that vital piece of information in terms of outside of mind. You know, you need to get these achievements, you know, they need to be in front of these kids in order for them to benefit and have that confidence built.
Because that's why we keep on doing the same thing. It's like, we need to prove to ourselves, I can keep doing this. Oh, I can do this. Oh, you know, and that's why we tend to overdo it.
And we are quite very high achieving, usually because we, you know, down ourselves and we have to prove to ourselves again and again. We can do the thing. Well, it has been a brilliant chat. Thank you so much for joining us today.
And we'll obviously put all of the details of how to find a coach that you've given us today in the program description. But it's been a real pleasure, Stephanie. Thank you so much for joining us. It'd be wonderful.
Thank you for the opportunity. That's everything from us for today. We'll be back on Wednesday with a brand new bonus episode. We're going to be sharing everything we've heard from our chat with Stephanie, so do make sure you listen to that.
And don't forget, you can listen and subscribe to your wrong about ADHD on Global Player or whatever you get in your podcast. Thanks for listening and see you next time. This is a Global Player Original Podcast.