you're now listening to vices and vultures, podcasts on cultures. So you're saying that you're really not 70 of minutes now? I'm not anything, but I am just... I don't want to be super like, super like, difficult or super preachy.
You're not, you're even considered... You know, Paul says one time in Romans, I think it was like Romans 9, right? Preach your word, brother. Paul says Romans 8 or not, it's like that.
Like he's telling me how people were debating, right? At this point, people were just not coming to Christianity, and a lot of that were coming in were gentiles. People that were not Jewish, originally, right? So Jewish people have a lot of, you know, customs and traditions, at all those different rules, they had to follow.
Kind of like how I invented it, right? And so Paul was required by God to go talk to these gentiles who were not of that nature. And he was like, yo, come, believe in God, they would all come believe in God, but then the Jewish people would be like, yo, you still got to do all these traditions and customs, like they have intentions to do. And Paul wrote a whole text about it in Romans 3, whatever it was, and he's telling me, he was a person, specifically, pretending to the issue of like eating food that was sacrificed to other idols, and also believing in honoring certain daily days or holidays.
And so he dedicates a whole chapter to that, and he's telling me literally, he says, some people might have seen him, first of all, he says, he first of all says, don't debate things that are debatable. Like, don't debate things that are questionable. Like, even in science, it's the same as the same as the guy that, right? If I'm a scientist and I don't know something for sure, then I can't say it's true or not.
Let me say it's true or not. Let me say it's true or not. And the realm of science. Similarly, speaking, Paul says, yo, if I don't know that this is true for a fact, then I'm not gonna say it is.
So I'm not gonna say it's truth. So in the realms of spirituality, when you say things are true, like when the church says this is true, they mean true as in spiritual realm. They don't mean true as in historical, geographical, scientific realm. Let me say it's not all the time.
So Paul's like, yo, don't debate things that are true for a temple. They don't believe you would have it, right? They believe the resting. But a lot of other nominations do believe they go to heaven.
This is all things that are debatable. So Paul's you and somebody that's right. So when Paul's you, I'm not gonna talk about it. We could talk about it one or one, but whatever, but what I'm not gonna do is get an appointment and say you do go to heaven or you don't, because I don't know.
Let me sense? I gotta know. So, so without, I don't think you go to heaven. That's just, I don't think so either.
And I don't think so, and I don't think so because of that business thingy, I think it's because of my own research. Right. Let me say it's true. It's all about you researching.
The things we used to talk about earlier. Right. When you take the times of that, that you go like you go now only. Because I always tell people, it doesn't matter what we want.
You can tell it to me too. That's it. That's it. But it takes the God in them to really align with that.
Like, you know, everybody has a bit of a, again, I'm really not trying to be a churchy, but everybody has a bit of like, truth that they have in them from the time they've gone. And what's that truth for me to not have said a truth? It aligns very well. You can acknowledge that, okay, this is some real stuff.
So, so with me separating myself from any church and nominations really came in college. When I was, after my freshman year, I did that was my first time ever doing a really fast. First time ever. And the fast was to give my mind right, to give my spirit right, all this type of stuff.
And after that, I thought they were doing pretty cool things. Like, really cool things. But nonetheless though, from that fast, I started like really doing the Bible studying my own self and really realizing that like, it's not about evangelism, but like in general, a lot of denominations, they have a lot of dogma and church rules and stuff that are not necessarily godly. So I'm not messing with it.
If it's not. And so the reason why I had to cut ties with Adventism, just what happens is that I was Adventist. But the thing that I didn't like with Adventist was like, you know, in so many ways, you know, the way that you people based on their customs and beliefs was sometimes not cool. You know, you know what I'm laughing?
Cause I don't know which my parents here in this conversation, they still crying right now. Oh, my mom had a heart attack. She had a heart attack. My mom had a heart attack, bro.
Not literally you came to this realization for yourself. Yeah, I came back home from college one time and I told her like, yo, there's only things I don't even discuss with my parents. I mean, that's why, why don't you? Because they never gonna understand where I'm coming from.
You might not be able to understand where they're coming from. So I just leave it at once. So my question to you, my bad, my question to you would be like, I'm not saying to push a wall that's not gonna fall over. But what I will say is like, with the conversation that I have a mom, we don't talk about anymore cause she knows what I'm saying.
I don't know what she's saying. But when we're talking, you know, I would really try to focus on like, what can I say in this moment? That's gonna help me understand. What can I hear in this moment that helps me understand her?
What can I say that's gonna help understand me? Versus like battling each other out. Yeah, I'm trying to understand my parents. Yeah, cause I used to, not anymore.
Cause let me tell you something, I tell the end of this, my life too. Cause she grew up at this. And she had a whole bunch of issues here. She could talk to ya, cause she went to school for this.
Now. And she's having a mattress. No, no, you don't go to see all that. That's what I'm saying.
You don't go to school for the rest of the day. Yeah, you don't go to school for the rest of the day. You go to school for the all of the day. And you learn.
And when you learn what you learn, you have a perspective that's holistic. I don't understand what you're saying, but at the same time, we went to a seven year old in school and had like two classes. And it's different. I'm being very clear.
A lot of these things are BS. No, I know that. But when I'm still seven year old, that's what I'm saying. I'm saying that like, you can't be like me saying, okay, in order for me to learn science, let's say I want to learn science on a general level, but still be an expert at it.
And then I go and study biology only. That doesn't make any sense. That's dumb. If I'm trying to learn anything on a holistic level, as expertly as possible, that's what you learn in biology, chemistry, physics, everything, you know what I'm saying?
Earth science, whatever the case, even a little bit of geography, you know what I'm saying? So the equipment like for Dana going to school would be like her going to school for the actual degree that matches in the divinity. So she learned a lot of different theology, a lot of different religion. She learned about also hers, of course, Christianity.
And she learned a lot of things that kind of make her sever ties to just only the nomination of that this is insane. So now she's like a different woman, a different being, because she never just stopped at biology. She's learning the other sciences. She's learning the other sciences.
I got you. And that's the way she's better at first thing about that. Like the source of all of this knowledge has to be in a sense unvioced. I mean, obviously, no matter what institution you go, they're always going to have a lean.
It's the way whatever that means. They don't have a lean somewhere. But you as yourself have to understand, where does it stop for me to say, oh, I'm going to learn this just to learn this, or as opposed to I'm going to learn this, because I actually want to understand if this is right from the time of the day. When I first met her, and we first started dating, I hadn't gone through my experience yet.
So I was a full of non-ventries, and she was a full of non-ventries. And I went through my experience, broke up into that. Then I went through my change of life, and she was still back to the same. I was like the free spirit coming back.
So then now she went through her school. She has two masters. The second one is the MDiv. And so now she's like a 25-30 girl going through like spiritual crisis, because of the things she's learning.
These are she has to relearn, now reteach herself. But I'm here as a free spirit, who's able to say, okay, why I've done this myself in my own ways. Because I need to run up with science. I was taught science and religion.
Don't go together. They separate. And now I've learned, now they can go in and hand it. But you learned that in church.
Not, well, things of church did teach that. But just in general, like, until now, there's not really many people in the science room who acknowledge, like the coaches will get to like a believer in science is like a diagnostic, which is cool, I found that, you know. At least that's better of the same, you know. You didn't know God.
Because again, in science, you can't say that it's a God or not God, because you can't prove where it is proven. So it's not factual. So you can't even say that either. So to me, like a person like, for example, I'm not the grassy-tison.
He'll say that he's like, he's like, he's agnostic, but it also like won't go hard for like certain things about Christianity. Cause in his mind, science says you have to get approval and federal evidence. You know, things that could be tested over in the internet. But I see what you're saying, but at the same time, I feel like what people fail to understand that, when you talk about the Bible in general, the Bible is not really based on, you know, physical evidence, and that's why I wouldn't get when atheists and pastors try to discuss stuff like this.
Because you're never gonna be. And this is exactly when I talk about it. I don't try to understand my parents. I feel like atheists discussing with a pastor where a God exists or not.
They just wasting their time. Because somebody's already believed that God doesn't exist. And the pastor does believe God exists. And what the pastor is saying is never going to make any sense, because it's not based on evidence.
That's part of faith. That's partially true. See, like, when you're doing research, right, there's things, I found that I would say 90% of the people that are leaving the church, leaving specifically leaving the church, is a result of them finding out something that they should have been taught when they were kids. And that key thing is how to read the Bible.
The Bible's a Hebrew text translated into Hebrew and then Greek and then English and Latin, what's that? So when you look at how to read a Bible, then you learn what things to take literally, what things do not take literally. Things to take frequently, what things to see as like literary elements of writing. That's a right.
At the end of the day, I feel like it's all about experience. And it's also me personally, I truly believe that the reason why they are saying that I'm not understanding on the Bible is because I'm not there yet, spiritually. Like, well, things. Like, a lot of things in the Bible, like miracles, for instance.
You know how they say in the Bible, if you, I'm just trying to paraphrase. Because at this point, because I've even read the Bible in so long, that's what we'll talk here. That's what we'll talk. It's like, it's like, I feel like God can bring you to a position where you read something and you understand what you read.
I feel like that's the same thing that happens for a lot of the prophets. They were put in positions where they didn't believe something at first. And they spent some time with God, where they were, they became blind by the truth or something. And then they came to the position where, OK, now I'm consecrating myself to God.
And then I'm starting this. And I'm really doing it the way that I'm supposed to. And then they came to understand, oh, this is what that means. This is what this means.
I feel like they're supposed to be one understanding one. There's got to be one understanding. There's not supposed to be, oh, I understand this part of it. And then you understand something completely different.
Why not? No, because if we talk, we're talking about God now. He's vast. It's vast.
No, he will never be able to understand him. Right. So the only person that really can make us understand God is God himself. And in order for us to do that, we have to completely, we have to come to that to our senses where we're like, OK, I'm going to give you an example.
Where you consecrate your life to them, you wake up every single day, you're like, OK, this is what I'm trying to understand. I'm going to pray about it. I'm a fast regardless of what I got to do. There are certain things that I'm going to leave behind.
I feel like you're going to come to that point where you want to send this stuff. That's just what it is. And God is really going to be the one to help you understand it. I don't feel like you're just going to read something and then you understand it on your own.
I don't think so either. I don't think it's especially when it comes to the Bible. Because if the Bible was inspired by God, and we think about God like, oh, God is this and his dad. He's able to do this.
He's able to do that. I don't think about God that way, because he's not that simple. Every single thing that you read in the Bible, they have to break it down for humans to understand it. God is all powerful.
He's somebody that we talk about him, but we can't even understand it. And this is the thing with the Bible. The Bible was written for us to understand. But can you ever understand God?
Not really. I don't think so. That's what I'm saying. I don't think that's why the Bible is written, though.
I think the Bible was written. I know the Bible is written as you just say, to help navigate us, to understanding a little bit about God, but his role in our lives. Not so much the other way. Does that make sense?
A little bit about it. A little bit. Because the little bit that we do know that feels like a big, a lot is still a little bit more. Right.
I feel like it's a tool to be used to help us navigate our way to understanding God a little bit, but more so to understanding what he could do for us as his salvation. And the reason why that is is because you talked about your experience, spirituality-wise, and then meeting your wife at the time that you did, and then where you guys are now. You're talking about your articulate and your experience about your spiritual life and how you are trying to understand it. And I've been listening.
And I know that I'm at a completely different spot than all of you guys. But at the end of the day, and I tell this to people all the time when it comes to spirituality, it's so individualized. And even though there are certain things that are constant that I know and I believe in, and because we all grew up in the same background, we understand it, that isn't, but look at us now. We're at different points, but that isn't me.
It isn't called for comparison. I'm not saying that we are comparing. I'm just saying that it just proves that, you know, his role in our lives is vast. It's very different.
It's different for you. You know, it brought you Oklahoma for two years. And it brought you your wife. You know, it's different for you.
You're just in school. It's different for me. Like I'm teaching right now. I'm trying to figure things out just like everybody else in this room.
It's so individualized. What I want to ask you is this. When you met your wife as an absist, and then now that you are a self-declared free spirit, and she's going through what you call a spiritual crisis, describe that transition. Because for me, I mean, you can speak for yourself.
But you know, keep that in mind because what I'm trying to learn is what I'm trying to learn is what that is like, because this is a podcast about cultures, right? And so when you met your wife, it wasn't a media culture class. You can know that. Black and Haitian.
Black and Haitian. And also you guys were young. Right. I feel like this is the most important concept.
Because I'm selfish when I was that age. I don't want to believe in what you believe. So when you met her, you met her in your youth, in your differences, and seeing how that has brought you to, almost when you're a marriage, which is amazing, because what we're doing within the world today, describe that because your relationship is not only just physical, animal, spiritual thing, and you haven't made that very clear. How did you guys make that happen?
So how far is it about the relationship? What you're I learning? I'll talk about the relationship first and then I'll get to this person. So for the relationship, like I met her like, we both remember two or three things about when we first met.
Of course. I don't know why. My memories are blurred also because I'm excited too. Some things are like pockets are gone.
But nonetheless though, we do. We met up at the end of the end of the end of the, towards the end of Spring semester freshman year of college at University of Hartford. And what brought us together, even before we said, what we're talking about is together with that, we were talking at one point. And she met at home because her mother had a paper placement.
And she was like terrified of whatever, because mom's old, she's on the heavier side. I think it's gonna happen, you know, in a surgery when you're a little bit not in shape and stuff like that. And older too. And so she was worried.
And so she called me. You know what I'm saying? So that kind of like, you knew that in your spiritual life is something significant. Oh yeah, I knew that for something significant.
And I also thought it was interesting because she didn't ask me to pray for her nothing like that, but I was like, yo, I'll pray for you right now if you want me to. You know what I'm saying? So that kind of like, that put me back in that moment. I was like, oh snap.
I'm actually trying to pray for this girl. Like, oh, you know what I'm saying? This is, you know, I like to be so pretty churchy or spiritual like that, because some people get thrown up by that sometimes too. So I was like, oh man, that's crazy.
And she accepted it. I gotta be able to pray for you. That's what I'm saying. But it's like, you know, you're a college.
It's not like you go to a theist college. This is like a non-theist college. Like just like a regular college epic kinetic kid. Folks, even folks that are Christian are there, quote unquote, you know, they might not be superly like spiritual, whatever, you know what I'm saying?
They claim a faithful only in name. Right. Or just like, you know, like in general, like, and this is like the multiplastic is a Christian, or any faith really that we can get to the wrong about like living and still being a believer in whatever case you be. But nonetheless though, you know, it's just like, it's just not a place where people I'll be like, yo, I'll be like, yo, I'll be like, that's not, you know, it's not my brother, my sister.
They went to the evidence school. Yeah, exactly. I was gonna touch on that. It's different when we got union.
This is what everybody does. Don't be afraid for you. That's not the same thing when you go to the WCC. It's a very different, you call up a girl and say you go, feel it, you're like, what?
Yeah. That was another culture shock. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Like I came from Haiti where everybody knows what God is.
Right. And everybody came here and I think, yeah, yeah. But coming up here, like, it's not the same thing. Yeah.
So that is so happens after that. After you play for her. At that point for her, the mom is fine. She comes to the surgery, he's fine, whatever.
But after that, we kind of really started talking more seriously, became both and griffing. So I was like able to make on thing going out of the summer. That summer, when I did that 30 day fast. Okay.
So that was the interesting part because of fast is very much fast. And I wanted to get to what she was asking about the experience thing. Like again, I took a very scientific approach to my fast. Where I said, yo, God, I'm about to go into my sophomore year of college.
I'm learning all these scientific things. I'm learning all these things. And there's no record historically of like things that happen in the Old Testament, certain things. So like, God, either this is the law or I'm not being taught it the right way.
But I'm not going to show me even with the comes to miracles. Like I'm going to show me. Like I'm close to very like scientifically speaking. If this is true, let me see the evidence of it.
So I fasted and like, no kidding bro, I fasted. I will not about this. Shut me down if I'm not. I fasted somebody called a friend of ours.
I was staying at a family friend in Connecticut house and I was working sometimes on classroom classes. I stood out there on the 30 day fast. Somebody called their family and I was like, yo, this lady sick, she got died blah blah blah and then before I know what to do the minutes before, I never been wrong. Even being Haitian, we hear stuff like this and Haiti.
We don't hear stuff like this in America. It's the same. And I never experienced it. So I still didn't have that much faith about it.
But after that fast, they called. I went over there with them. Who also was just praying like regular and it's like a true daddy to make a family. Just praying like regular.
I went to the house and I was praying for her. When I prayed, I swear everything I love, bro. When I prayed, it was almost like a, it was like as if I wasn't praying like, it wasn't your words coming out. It wasn't like it was me.
It was like, I was like, you know when you praying and you know when there is something. It's different. It's different. And the crazy part was when I was done praying with her, the whole time I was praying, it wasn't like if I was asking God or like, he'll hurt.
It was almost like, it was almost like the audacity of me to say, yo, can't to get out of body type stuff. You know what I'm saying? And after that happened, like a week later she went into the hospital again because again she was supposed to pass away and they couldn't find a trace of her. So the day she stood up, she skipped and like, it's perfectly fine.
So scientifically I have to say I can prove that there's scientifically a reason why that happened. But I can also say, and that's when it first hit me like, oh, this goes hand in hand, you can prove a lot of things scientifically speaking, tangibly. I can say, you're the reason why you're dying is because diabetes, I can also say there's a spiritual type of treat that's causing you to not take care of your body the right way. It goes hand in hand.
You know, I was in the flight. And also I wasn't fly either. Like I got really poor. You know what I'm saying?
And growing up really broke, there's like three things. You got to be like, kick on up especially black. You got to be you got to be dressed nice or be hood. And or be like, I thought out here as a man though.
Was it because you were a virgin or was it because you did not want to have sex with them? Which one was it? Because you know, there are a lot of girls that are specifically interested in versions. They never get those though.
You see what I'm saying? I never met those. So like when they were actually thinking, oh, his version, he has no game. Right.
That's what they was thinking. That was the mindset the time was like yo, he's a virgin He got I think we think about it's like a now thing like if I was like right now Maybe like or even like cougars they call him right like a lot of older women They might pray on little man and be like Oh, he's a person people get turned on by right right right um, but like when I was a kid though growing up It wasn't about that was more just like yo, why your version like I'm gonna put a experience You know that blah blah blah blah and so Oh probably don't mind But like that pressure is you know, I was all the way that right shout out to y'all I'm right now. Thank you so much. Thank you for the nose and for the denials But um, I was all the day about it like you know, it's always even society So we go over some women and how much she has that sex, but we don't really talk about how much pressure for me You're like the pressure that I had to have sex growing up I was so I'm like this was facing my life where I was lying like I was like yeah, I was like Hey, it's like I was probably 1314 that that was exactly exactly I know she's my mistakes at that point in my life Everybody said I was like, oh, yeah, but it took me to get in the high school.
I was like I'm not gonna Not about this well dream shake hold. Oh my god. It was bad It was like like for me wasn't what masturbating right? Oh my god.
I remember all my friends were talking about masturbating Right masturbation, and I didn't even know what that was right and I felt ashamed to be like what is that right? Where that comes from that comes from the church culture that we ruin because there's such an element of fear that encapsulates that conversation to the point that We didn't know about it. We didn't know how to not believe it or nothing And then we get flung into it running into all these bad experiences Same thing like with my wife like she has to do with her own things about sex because of what we were taught separately We talked different things like honestly, I'm not like my dad on my own They thought it's a very beautiful thing, but they also say you know haven't actually Does that make sense? We didn't even have this conversation We did like my mom my dad was very clear like it was like they're like and not like they were still hating about it So it wasn't like a this is what I did or nothing.
It was just simple like sex is beautiful for marriage Only and then they go like only Business so like and like I'm one time I was telling you one time in like high school. He'd be like he'll be like I would have because my dad when my dad my mom my mom was a virgin my dad wasn't you know my dad my mom off chance He came here like 50. You know saying my mom was 31 or something like that So he was already settled down in life. He wasn't a virgin so he would tell me he told me one time He would tell me he told me one time.
I never gave that it had nothing to switch it He said if you can't take care of baby, then you probably should have sex And that for me that's stuck and I get that technology everything is Proved now you might be able to have to do it But I was just too scared to have baby to do it You know saying and even because not just to have a baby like I knew that I could not take care of myself As a maturity wise as a finances wise. I was not ready to have a baby So that's what kept me it wasn't always about the spiritual but it did become about spiritual things They're wrong like just like trying to I guess I'm saying whatever. I remember we had this conversation before and I was We had this conversation right before you got married and I was like wow because For I couldn't imagine somebody, you know in your opposition young and full of life and everything he we were talking But how he was waiting for marriage now that was That's amazing it's to have that type of a I feel like that as structure to your life and also discipline Yeah, I think that discipline is the key like I was like somebody asked me one time on Facebook You know what made you wait till marriage and it was a woman to ask me this question and I could have entered in this mutual way, but I was like nah She probably heard that a thousand times right and honestly that is an old apply to everybody So I told her to very practically I said for me all he's just if I would have started having sex when I wanted to I would Have been super mature about it So kind of what would happen but I also feel like in terms of discipline I would have a system when I was done for me specifically because you got no one vices for me My vice would have been having sex and I would have been having sex a lot And I probably wouldn't have been as focused on my career path on my goals on my own stuff for me specifically Right, so you're saying so like for me That's what I find that helps me or help me on a practical level to stay from sex was like, you know It allows me because like not man It goes down it goes down it does especially both ways it goes down right, you know I'm saying so it's like so I can't imagine having done that a lot and still have been focused practically on my life for me specifically Because I'm weak like that. I'm weak, you know There's people out there who could have sex and they strong enough to still be disciplined.
That's them for me I'm right and I think that's so like it's commendable and it's also like the fact that you honored yourself like all the way to there I think what also happens, you know We talked about how this cloud like encapsulates again where that using capsulates, you know This conversation that just makes it so much harder to have and then just so much Incredibly more difficult to navigate like as you grow up as a teenager Because like you know, I have experience that in like many ways as well But it's so interesting because when you get to that point, you know, you also have to understand that when 2019 We're in the age of comparison like nobody's miss I mean It started it started like it's like social media's been around for a while now more than ever And so you know people will hear this as a light because I believe it is as we all do and just Whole set of experiences where it's just like well, okay, everybody's doing it You know what I'm saying? Like everybody's just you know, everybody's doing it But like why are you doing it? Right and some people are you know, you were motivated motivated by the fear of not having a child among other things And not as ready yet and understanding that you weren't ready even in even in your even as you were growing up you have this deep sense of awareness that you understood that you couldn't put yourself in a Wors position right some people are in that position too, but they're even more scared to you know Live up and own up to that so they would rather just you know Do what everybody else is doing for fear of not being found out and go through what you went through when you were going up Which is like oh you a virgin Well, you know, I'm saying because that happens all the time It's nine times out of ten you just see it time and time again And you know, this is why things end up the way they do from like the relationship to the marriage level Right because people are just there's so much fear There's so much resentment there's so much anxiety that comes up and while you were dealing with that you honored What you said set out to do despite everything else and you're able to enjoy, you know, something that your parents told you You know, it's a beautiful thing and it's only for marriage and how you see what that is for sure sure and I'll even go as far as I say like Because I've heard because you know sex is very interesting So I've like looked up sexologists YouTube accounts and stuff it there It was time and you know everyone's in a while because I think we did 2019 so everybody knows people have sex period You can't stop that right? We're fine with me, right?
It's not even you but that if I feel for you and I want you not to attend now I'm going to have sex with you, right? So and it's been like that's when it was kids like when we watched the call speeds when we watched friends and instead of being Whether the first they had sex versus this is what was impression on minds and that's that's very cool They're impression on our minds from the time we was kids and that's that's not like that's the time program is not like super conspiracy It's just like that's reality. Most people when they go out they go out first, right? They do this is the first thing and then they have the college like what are we trying to work things out right?
Which is the one way to go It's the one way to go back for that's like the community It's like so much really happening like so but because we were kids watching those things That's how we thought it was too. You know saying but I like I said I've watched sexologists online that was like very few but not often the very few that would say similar things I'd always say not about the baby thing because they don't like fear among people But they would say like it's just like you know they own kids They tell them don't do unless you mature enough to do it. These are sexologists. They're like They're okay with sexuality and fluidity and stuff, but they some of them now some of the we say to their own kids They say on their platform.
I have to my own kids, you know wait till like you really really like you got to really know What you doing by doing it? Thank you for taking the time to listen to this episode of vices and vultures and considering being a supporter of this project Even leaving a review on your preferred podcast platform. It was a long way for us There is more information about this episode as well as who we are in the show notes This includes all our social media links so you can see us and not just hear us Vices and vultures is brought to you by aesthetic and it's based in a great state of New York Be sure to subscribe to this podcast for more episodes and tune in next time to vices and vultures