America Goes Rogue -- And How We Come Back

In our second episode, we consider where we're headed with a rogue president in charge of a rogue state. We take a look back at how people stood up against torture after 9/11 and show how everyday Americans are already defying Trump allies this week. Andrea Pitzer returns to a longtime source, Mark Fallon, who was at one time NCIS chief of counterintelligence for Europe, Africa, and the Middle East. In the months after 9/11, Fallon worked to stop the torture program at Guantanamo in its early development, later going public to denounce the U.S. embrace of illegal methods. When she first talked to him almost a decade ago, Fallon told her that the torture program had turned the U.S. into a rogue state, and that accountability would be required to return the country to democracy. In light of Trump's willingness to ignore the rule of law both domestically and abroad in ways far beyond most U.S. presidents, Andrea considers what it means to have a shameless executive in charge of a rogue state and how we might follow Fallon's example by standing up in the face of unethical or illegal activities. She offers a heartening early example from Oklahoma of people doing just that.