American Fascism: If You Close Your Eyes It Won't Go Away episode artwork

EPISODE · Jun 12, 2025 · 40 MIN

American Fascism: If You Close Your Eyes It Won't Go Away

from Keen On America · host Andrew Keen

According to Deborah Baker, author of Charlottesville: An American Story, America has become the Charlottesville of the Unite the Right Rally of August 12, 2017. Baker, who grew up in Charlottesville in the shadow of Jefferson's Monticello, watched in shock as neo-Nazis marched through her hometown in August 2017 with torches and flags. What began as her attempt to understand how such hatred could manifest in a progressive college town became a deeper reckoning with America's buried histories and recurring tragedies. The fascist ideologies that once seemed confined to internet forums and fringe rallies have now, she argues, been institutionalized at the highest levels of government. The warning signs were there in 2017—but too many people, from university administrators to progressive leaders, chose to look away. If we close our eyes, she warns, it won’t go away. five key takeaways1. America Has Institutionalized ExtremismWhat began as fringe internet movements and basement trolling has now moved into the mainstream of American politics and government institutions. The ideologies that shocked people in Charlottesville 2017 are now, according to Baker, embedded at the highest levels of power.2. Progressive Institutions Failed to Take the Threat SeriouslyUniversity administrators, mayors, and police chiefs in liberal Charlottesville told citizens to "stay home" and ignore the approaching Unite the Right rally. This pattern of progressive leadership closing their eyes to fascist organizing represents a dangerous institutional failure that continues today.3. White Supremacy Has Always Married Anti-Semitism with Anti-Black RacismThe Nazi flags at Charlottesville weren't separate from the Confederate monuments debate. White supremacist ideology consistently portrays Jews as the puppet masters behind Black civil rights movements, combining European fascism with Southern white supremacy into a unified hateful worldview.4. America's "Buried Histories" Keep RepeatingBaker discovered that Charlottesville had experienced a similar white supremacist rally in the 1950s that had been completely forgotten. This pattern of burying ugly chapters allows the same mistakes to be repeated, as communities fail to learn from their past encounters with organized hate.5. Economic and Political Destabilization Creates Fertile Ground for FascismThe conditions that radicalized figures like Richard Spencer include the "forever wars," the 2008 financial crisis, and the broader betrayal of working-class Americans. These "self-inflicted wounds" by American institutions create the chaos that fascist movements exploit to gain followers.Deborah Baker was born in Charlottesville and grew up in Virginia, Puerto Rico and New England. She attended the University of Virginia and Cambridge University. Her first book, written in college, was Making a Farm: The Life of Robert Bly, published by Beacon Press in 1982. After working as a book editor and publisher, in 1990 she moved to Calcutta where she wrote In Extremis; The Life of Laura Riding. Published by Grove Press and Hamish Hamilton in the UK, it was shortlisted for the Pulitzer Prize in Biography in 1994. Her third book, A Blue Hand: The Beats in India was published by Penguin Press USA and Penguin India in 2008. In 2008–2009 she was a Fellow at the Dorothy and Lewis C. Cullman Center for Writers and Scholars at The New York Public Library. There she researched and wrote The Convert: A Tale of Exile and Extremism, a narrative account of the life of an American convert to Islam. Published by Graywolf and Penguin India, The Convert was a finalist for the 2011 National Book Award in Non-Fiction. The Last Englishmen: Love, War and the End of Empire was published in October 2018. For this book she received a Whiting Creative Non-fiction grant and a Guggenheim fellowship. Charlottesville is her sixth work of narrative non-fiction. She is married to the writer Amitav Ghosh and lives in Brooklyn and Charlottesville.Named as one of the "100 most connected men" by GQ magazine, Andrew Keen is amongst the world's best known broadcasters and commentators. In addition to presenting the daily KEEN ON show, he is the host of the long-running How To Fix Democracy interview series. He is also the author of four prescient books about digital technology: CULT OF THE AMATEUR, DIGITAL VERTIGO, THE INTERNET IS NOT THE ANSWER and HOW TO FIX THE FUTURE. Andrew lives in San Francisco, is married to Cassandra Knight, Google's VP of Litigation & Discovery, and has two grown children.Keen On America is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit keenon.substack.com/subscribe

According to Deborah Baker, author of Charlottesville: An American Story, America has become the Charlottesville of the Unite the Right Rally of August 12, 2017. Baker, who grew up in Charlottesville in the shadow of Jefferson's Monticello, watched in shock as neo-Nazis marched through her hometown in August 2017 with torches and flags. What began as her attempt to understand how such hatred could manifest in a progressive college town became a deeper reckoning with America's buried histories and recurring tragedies. The fascist ideologies that once seemed confined to internet forums and fringe rallies have now, she argues, been institutionalized at the highest levels of government. The warning signs were there in 2017—but too many people, from university administrators to progressive leaders, chose to look away. If we close our eyes, she warns, it won’t go away. five key takeaways1. America Has Institutionalized ExtremismWhat began as fringe internet movements and basement trolling has now moved into the mainstream of American politics and government institutions. The ideologies that shocked people in Charlottesville 2017 are now, according to Baker, embedded at the highest levels of power.2. Progressive Institutions Failed to Take the Threat SeriouslyUniversity administrators, mayors, and police chiefs in liberal Charlottesville told citizens to "stay home" and ignore the approaching Unite the Right rally. This pattern of progressive leadership closing their eyes to fascist organizing represents a dangerous institutional failure that continues today.3. White Supremacy Has Always Married Anti-Semitism with Anti-Black RacismThe Nazi flags at Charlottesville weren't separate from the Confederate monuments debate. White supremacist ideology consistently portrays Jews as the puppet masters behind Black civil rights movements, combining European fascism with Southern white supremacy into a unified hateful worldview.4. America's "Buried Histories" Keep RepeatingBaker discovered that Charlottesville had experienced a similar white supremacist rally in the 1950s that had been completely forgotten. This pattern of burying ugly chapters allows the same mistakes to be repeated, as communities fail to learn from their past encounters with organized hate.5. Economic and Political Destabilization Creates Fertile Ground for FascismThe conditions that radicalized figures like Richard Spencer include the "forever wars," the 2008 financial crisis, and the broader betrayal of working-class Americans. These "self-inflicted wounds" by American institutions create the chaos that fascist movements exploit to gain followers.Deborah Baker was born in Charlottesville and grew up in Virginia, Puerto Rico and New England. She attended the University of Virginia and Cambridge University. Her first book, written in college, was Making a Farm: The Life of Robert Bly, published by Beacon Press in 1982. After working as a book editor and publisher, in 1990 she moved to Calcutta where she wrote In Extremis; The Life of Laura Riding. Published by Grove Press and Hamish Hamilton in the UK, it was shortlisted for the Pulitzer Prize in Biography in 1994. Her third book, A Blue Hand: The Beats in India was published by Penguin Press USA and Penguin India in 2008. In 2008–2009 she was a Fellow at the Dorothy and Lewis C. Cullman Center for Writers and Scholars at The New York Public Library. There she researched and wrote The Convert: A Tale of Exile and Extremism, a narrative account of the life of an American convert to Islam. Published by Graywolf and Penguin India, The Convert was a finalist for the 2011 National Book Award in Non-Fiction. The Last Englishmen: Love, War and the End of Empire was published in October 2018. For this book she received a Whiting Creative Non-fiction grant and a Guggenheim fellowship. Charlottesville is her sixth work of narrative non-fiction. She is married to the writer Amitav Ghosh and lives in Brooklyn and Charlottesville.Named as one of the "100 most connected men" by GQ magazine, Andrew Keen is amongst the world's best known broadcasters and commentators. In addition to presenting the daily KEEN ON show, he is the host of the long-running How To Fix Democracy interview series. He is also the author of four prescient books about digital technology: CULT OF THE AMATEUR, DIGITAL VERTIGO, THE INTERNET IS NOT THE ANSWER and HOW TO FIX THE FUTURE. Andrew lives in San Francisco, is married to Cassandra Knight, Google's VP of Litigation & Discovery, and has two grown children.Keen On America is a reader-supported publication. To receive new posts and support my work, consider becoming a free or paid subscriber. This is a public episode. If you'd like to discuss this with other subscribers or get access to bonus episodes, visit keenon.substack.com/subscribe

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According to Deborah Baker, author of Charlottesville: An American Story, America has become the Charlottesville of the Unite the Right Rally of August 12, 2017. Baker, who grew up in Charlottesville in the shadow of Jefferson's Monticello, watched...

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