M-S-W media. Listen. Hello and welcome to the Daily Beans for Wednesday, October 22nd, 2025. Today, Donald Trump is demanding a $230 million payout from his own Justice Department to compensate him for his legal troubles.
Trump's Office of Special Counsel nominee to replace the improperly fired Hampton Delanger called himself a Nazi and has just withdrawn from consideration. The Treasury tells employees to please not share images of Trump demolishing the White House. Pro-temporary Speaker of the House ran away when Raskin called for unanimous consent to swear in Adelaide, or Hulva. A part in January 6th insurrectionist has been arrested for making death threats against Hawking Jeffries.
More than a third of the people that have applied for ICE have failed the fitness test, and banned books are being returned to military libraries. I'm Allison Gill. And I'm Dana Goldberg. Hey, Dana, how are you?
A-Taint of the Week to you. And to you, my friend. Okay. All these Chicago people in driving distance, I'm so sorry for the false alarms earlier, and last week, I want to say it's not my fault and I will normally take responsibility when it is.
There was an issue on the other side. Tickets for Chicago on November 14th are finally live on my website, DanaGolbert.com. It is a small theater. There's only 100 seats.
Allison can attest in small theaters. It's a lot of fun. We just did that in San Diego a month ago, a month or two ago. But tickets are already sailing.
Sailing. Selling. Selling. Selling.
Out the door. So, hang out in Chicago with me. On November 14th, I love the theater. I don't know if it's pronounced this way, but it sounds like annoyance theater, which I have a lot of lately.
So, we're going to have a good time. We're going to have community. It's going to be wonderful. You are technically the first city of my outrageous tour.
So, that's what we're calling it for the end of 25 into 26, and you're going to love the graphic because it's a play on words, but go get your ticket Chicago. Oh my gosh, I love it. Out on the road. Rage.
Rage. Unity. Out. Rage.
Let's go. It's like it works nine ways. I love it. So, everybody, I'm out tomorrow.
I'll be traveling going on a vacation. I will be working, so you'll have me back in your ears on Friday, but Dana's going to take over the helm tomorrow for the beans. Thank you, Dana. Absolutely.
My pleasure. I'm like taking over when you're gone. I don't love missing you, but I'm glad I can be here to take over the helm. There'll be a lot of mispronounced words people, so expect corrections on Sunday, Allison.
Ah, so for your good news, send it all to us at dailybeanspod.com. Click on contact and make sure you put words that are hard to pronounce in your good news submissions. Okay. Later in the show, I'm going to be joined by my good friend Joyce Vance, former US attorney and author of her new book, You Have to Get It.
It's called Giving Up Is Unforgivable. You don't want to miss our chat a little bit later. Also, today we have a couple of breaking stories, like right as we were sitting down to record. First of all, Jack Smith sent a letter to Chuck Grassley, and it's awesome.
It's refuting the Senate Republicans' bullshit about Jack Smith wiretapping them. Remember when Halle was like, you tapped my phone? Mar, Mar, Mar. And Andy and I are going to cover it on a Justified this weekend.
But basically, it says, look, getting toll records isn't wiretapping. You dumbass. Plus Trump's Department of Justice got toll records on Swallwell and Schiff and 43 congressional staffers. Plus, we needed to prove Trump and Rudy Giuliani called Republican senators to urge them to delay Biden's certification, which they did.
And we gave all the toll records to Trump himself and his lawyers two years ago. So why are you maddled a sudden, you performative doosh bags? Sincerely, Jack Smith. I paraphrase a little.
I bet that's pretty accurate. But that's the gist of the letter. If you have said Jack Smith's inside voice, I bet that's exactly what it would sound like. Right?
Like the anger translator would. And I think, I think what's interesting here is, you know, I used to do episodes back in the military wrote days when I would have Andy McCabe on as a guest, like back in 2019, when Mueller wrote a letter to Bill Barr, expressing his dismay at Bill Barr's mischaracterization of his work, right? Because Bill Barr said that the Mueller report exonerated Trump and Mueller was like, no, it doesn't. And so he wrote a letter.
And we were like, oh my God, he wrote a letter. It takes a lot to get somebody like a prosecutor, a buttoned prosecutor to go to paper. Jack Smith's out there doing interviews writing letters like this, basically given the big old double barrel middle finger. He knows he can't really bring these cases again.
Like even if they make him attorney general, if we win in 2028, 2029, the statute of limitations on these crimes where Trump will be long over. Yeah. Now, I don't know if they can try to say that they can toll them while he was president because you can't indict a sitting president. Right.
But he did leave him open that way. I don't know that he will or if he'll even be the IG or what is even going to happen in 2028, 2029, but he's coming out on the record pretty strongly. So it's good to see. It is good to see.
And a little good news at the top of the hour. I know, let's not write off George Santos being held accountable quite yet. It seems the Nassau County district attorney in New York and Donnelly put out the following statement today. And this is a quote, since first learning of George Santos's actions, I have been at the forefront of bringing him to justice.
I am proud of the work my office has done and the conviction achieved in partnership with the US Attorney's Office. While the office cannot comment on ongoing investigations, suffice it to say that I remain focused on prosecuting political corruption wherever it exists, regardless of political affiliation. So that sounds like we're not done yet. Yeah.
That's kind of exactly what it sounds like. Also this just in, Chris May has filed her lawsuit against Mike Johnson, the House of Representatives to get Adelaide Agra Hall this morning. She knows she won Arizona's seventh district on September 23rd and Mike Johnson refuses to swear her in. She's asking the court to make a declaration that she needs to be a member of the House of Representatives and if an oath is required and Johnson won't give the oath to allow someone else to swear her in.
So I don't know how far this will go or the delay tactics that will be used. It'll go all the way up to the Supreme Court. But the lawsuit is out there. I'm imagining and I'm hoping, but I may be giving too much of a benefit of the doubt here that this will be resolved before the lawsuit gets resolved.
But like she'll be sworn in before that, but we'll see. But I'm glad she's pulled the trigger on this lawsuit. Me too. All right, everybody, we have a lot of news to get to.
Let's have hot notes. Hot notes. All right. Today in We told you it's Republicans that are the violent ones.
The Washington Post reports that a man who was pardoned by Trump on charges related to his participation in the insurrection on January 6 was arrested last week after threatening to kill House Minority Leader, Joaquin Jeffries. Christopher Moynihan, 34, was charged with the felony of making a terroristic threat according to a statement from the New York State Police. Authorities were advised that Moynihan, who resides in Clinton, New York, quote, had made threats to kill a member of Congress. The statement said, I wonder if it bugs him like if it sticks in his craw that he's a MAGA Republican, but he lives in a town called Clinton.
Anyway, I bet it does. You live in Clinton. Where are you from? Sorry.
I guess though, the little chaps is high. You know, chaps is high that he lives in Clinton. Okay, keep going. There's only room enough for one of us here in Clinton.
New York State Police declined to release details related to the member of Congress threatened, but Jeffries confirmed it in a statement Tuesday that he was the subject of the credible death threat from someone with every intention to carry it out. Court documents show the state police filed a temporary extreme risk protection order against Moynihan, restricting his access to firearms and ammunition because he was deemed to be likely to harm himself or others. Wow. According to the order, the FBI received a tip last week that alleged Moynihan had made statements that he would kill Congressman Jeffries in New York City and he would do it for the future.
Jeffries addressed the economic club of New York on Monday. That was the event. In 2022, Moynihan was found guilty of obstructing an official proceeding and pled guilty to five related misdemeanor charges tied to his actions during the Capitol breach. He was sentenced to 21 months in prison in February of 2023.
So just an absolute jerk and I want to be clear here. These are state charges. Okay. Because we know we're just finding out, there's more breaking news coming out that this Department of Justice decided not to prosecute people who had threatened Swalwell, right?
And this threat against Hawking, Jeffries, again, not brought by the Department of Justice brought by New York State. So just, I'm just holding that in the back of my hand. It doesn't seem like this Trump's Department of Justice, which he's about to ask to for $230 million from. I don't think they're interested in prosecuting people who threaten Democrats.
Oh, I don't think I'm telling you either. More news on this horrible administration. This one's from the post-President Trump's pick to lead an office charge with protecting federal whistleblowers appeared to be in jeopardy on Tuesday after Senate Majority Leader John Thune said he hoped the White House would withdraw the nomination. Interesting.
It even too shitty of a person for John Thune. The growing opposition to Paul Ingracia comes after a political report of a text chat that showed him saying Martin Luther King Jr. and I quote, tossed into the seventh circle of hell. Ingracia also describes himself in the chat as having a Nazi streak at times.
Oh, look at that. Isn't that charming? And I quote, he's not going to pass. That's from Thune.
That's from Thune. Two Republicans who serve in the committee with jurisdiction over the nomination for the office of special counsels, job, Senators Rick Scott from Florida and Ron Johnson of Wisconsin, both horrible human beings. So they do not support Ingracia's confirmation. This I'm telling you.
Boy, if you can't get Rick Scott and Ron Johnson to like you. Right. Well, how Nazi you have to be. Well, I guess he may not be Russian enough if we're looking into this way.
According to text, according to text, we by Politico and Grosia told those in the chat that M.O.K. Jr. was the 1960s, George Floyd and his holiday should be ended in Boston to the seventh circle of hell where it belongs. Fuck off, dude.
Yeah. Politico also spoke to him. Grosia's lawyer who said the text messages might have been manipulated or were missing context. The lawyer did not confirm the text were authentic.
Okay. That old song and dance. And by seventh circle of hell, I mean a lovely garden where everyone can be together. What I say.
Okay. Okay. The office of special counsel is an investigative and prosecutorial office that works to protect government employees and whistleblowers from retaliation for reporting wrongdoing. And also is responsible for enforcing the Hatch Act, which restricts the partisan political activities of government workers, which is not going to be enforced in a very long time.
The Hatch Act is what we should call it. I know you might know something about that one. I know a little bit a little bit about the Hatch Act. Back when I started, military wrote in case y'all didn't know, I hired an expert on the Hatch Act to make sure that I didn't come anywhere near.
I didn't even want a total line, right? I wanted to be so far away from violating the Hatch Act and any ethics provisions in my job at the Department of Veterans Affairs. I almost didn't say Department of Veterans Affairs because I was afraid that I still worked there for a second and that would violate the Hatch Act. I'm very, very, it's a very important line to draw a big giant chasm between me and the Hatch Act.
And it's just it's become a joke now. It's just a joke. Anyway, thanks for that. By the way, he just now, if I'm looking at the news, has withdrawn in Gracia.
Wow. Just pulled his name out of the running. Let me see here. I've got it.
Paul and Gracia himself put a post out on truth social. I will be withdrawing myself from Thursdays hearing to lead the office of special counsel because unfortunately, I don't have enough Republican votes at this time. That's something to that's something. That's something.
I do not have enough Republican votes. I appreciate the overwhelming support. They will vote for, you know what, never mind. I appreciate the overwhelming support that I received throughout this process and will continue to serve President Trump and this administration to make America great again.
Okay. Bye. Bye. Bye.
Thank you for that story. Next up from the Times, this is so, oh my God, I can't believe. I can't, never mind. I can't believe this.
Trump is demanding the Justice Department pay him about $230 million in compensation for the federal investigations into him. That's according to people familiar who added that any settlement might ultimately be approved by senior department officials who defended him in his orbit. The people who have to decide this now are his lawyers, Todd Blanche, for example. Oh my God.
Whether or not he gets $230 million for his legal troubles, which is oddly about as much as that, let them eat cake ballroom that they're destroying the East Wing to build is about cost. Supposedly was funded, I guess not. Maybe it is and he just wants the extra money from us. This is tax payer money.
The situation has no parallel in American history. As Trump, a presidential candidate was pursued by federal law enforcement, eventually won the election, taking over the very government that must now review his claim. It is also the starkest example yet of potential ethical conflict created by installing the President's former lawyers atop the Justice Department. Mr.
Trump submitted complaints through an administrative claim process that often is the precursor to a lawsuit. The first claim was in late 2023 and it seeks damages for a number of reported violations of his rights, including the FBI and special counsel investigation and direction election tampering and possible connections to the 2016 Trump campaign. That's according to people familiar who spoke on the condition of anonymity. The second complaint was a summer 2024 accused the FBI of violating Trump's privacy by search in Mar-a-Lago in 2022 for classified documents, which they found, along with video on the breaking the law.
But what else? It also accuses the Justice Department of malicious prosecution and charging him with mishandling the sensitive records after he left office. It wasn't mishandling. It was retaining and then obstructing the investigation.
So he's asking Pam Bondi to give him $230 million of our tax dollars, just outright theft of the Treasury. Just going right into the Department of the Treasury, grabbing $230 million of our dollars for himself. Meanwhile, we can't get health care. What's the over-under?
I think they're going to do it. Yeah, I think they're going to. I mean, they gave Ashley that at $5 million. Although when the Proud Boys sued the Department of Justice for $100 million for wrongful prosecution, they're fighting that.
But this is Trump. And to Trump, which was his lawyer in these cases. Absolutely. Keeping him from being like, yeah, give me this money.
There's a million for you. Yeah. So he's just like, we never know. This is all a garkey.
He's robbing our treasury, our tax dollars, keeping it all for himself. Speaking of the Treasury, by the way, the Wall Street Journal of Courts at the Treasury Department instructed employees not to share photos of the demolition parts of the White House's East Wing after images of construction equipment dismantling the facade of the building went viral online. And I'll tell you what, there's been a lot of things that have f** pissed me off and really hurt my heart. Allison and I were in the East Wing last holiday season.
And Joe Biden still lived there. And it is powerful and historic and it's the people's house. And it crushed me to see that image just cross me for the son of a b**ch who is stealing from the government. Doesn't care about our democracy.
He's probably going to put his name on the damn thing, like you said. And those images really, they hurt. They really did hurt. Yeah.
I did on Blue Sky. I did just post some of those photos of us and you and our good friend Charlotte. Yeah. And kicking my kinky over at the East Wing.
And that's how I choose to remember it. Yep. And I will. And I will.
What a historic time. Had quarters that's located by the way next door in the East Wing given employees their front row seat to the construction of Trump's 250 million dollar ballroom $250 million. Huh? The new project is set to replace parts of the East Wing.
Quote as construction proceeds on the White House grounds employees should refrain from taking and sharing photographs of the grounds to include East Wing without prior approval from the office of public affairs. This is from a treasury official they wrote that Monday evening in an email to the Department of Employees' view by the Wall Street Journal. Oh, why? Are you ashamed of what you're doing?
Sure sounds like it. The Treasury Department spokesman said the email was sent to employees because photos could and I'm, quote, potentially reveal sensitive items, including security features or confidential structure details. Really, that's what you're worried about now. Not a fucking signal chat with war plans.
This is what you're worried about. Someone's going to see something secure in the photo of the East Wing. Confidential structural details. I'll just have Barry Loudermilk give me a tour.
There you go. And then I can learn all about where all the secret tunnels and passages are. Anyway, heartbreaking. So yeah, Wall Street Journal, that's an exclusive, right?
They're like Treasury Department. Hey, don't share photos. So they're ashamed of what they're doing. And they should be.
I don't think they got approval. There's like 10 committees and permits and stuff that you have to do. Although I've also read that the White House is exempt from those because no one ever thought anyone would touch the White House. No, no.
The White House has been modified here and there. I think 1902 or something is when the East Wing was built. I don't remember. I'll have to look it up.
Don't quote me on any dates. But it just seems like, I think I said yesterday, like my house was built in 1959. And it's not a government property. And if I want to change anything on the facade, I got to go through 18 months of permitting and go to make a public notice and a paper and then answer questions.
It's like, OK, never mind. Can I paint it? Maybe. But the White House, I guess you can just tear it down.
And I swear this is just, he's mad about No Kings. Yeah. Not so why he's doing this. I mean, I know he was going to build this ballroom anyway, but he was going to or he said he was going to do it without touching the existing structure of the White House.
And so maybe after No Kings, he's like, then no tear it down. Yeah, I don't know. All right. Next up from the Atlantic.
President Donald Trump's plan to double the size of the ICE workforce has met a foe more powerful than any activist group. It is decimating new recruits at the agency's training academy in Georgia. It's the ICE personal fitness test. Now more than a third have failed so far, according to the four officials who spoke to the Atlantic impeding the agency's plan to hire trained and deploy 10,000 deportation officers by January to pass.
You have to do 15 pushups, 32 situps, and run a mile and a half in 14 minutes. Oh my god, stop it. Let me say that again. 15 pushups, 32 situps, and a mile and a half in 14 minutes.
Dana, I do that five times a week. I was just going to say, I'm not even a runner. I could absolutely pass this fitness test. I'm 51 with a nose ring and I drink soy lattes.
And I have cats. Anyway, quote, it's pathetic. One career ICE official told me, adding that before now, a typical class of 40 recruits had only a couple of candidates fail because the screening process was more rigorous. And I want to just make a clarifying statement here.
There's no shame not being able to pass this fitness test, only if you're trying to become an ICE agent. Agreed. A hundred percent agreed. And I know that you say that because I understand that we are in empathic folk here.
But I think you know everyone knows that what they're asking of them. It's reasonable. It's reasonable. Especially, and again, it's never we're never shaming anyone.
It's the hypocrisy, right? So for HEGS-S-F to get up in front of a bunch of generals and call them all fat asses. And I'm quoting him. I'm using his words.
OK. And to say that the warrior ethos is awful and soft soy boys are weakening our military and the Department of War. And we need peace through strength, right? And to really hammer down on this physical fitness stuff.
And then to say, and by the way, to raise standards for women, to stay in combat roles, but to have the standards of 15 push-ups, 32 sit-ups, and a mile and a half and 14 minutes, that's like nowhere near some of the women who have gone through Ranger School. Yeah. You know what I'm saying? So it's the hypocrisy.
I want everybody to be clear about that. Not everybody's able body. Not everybody can run. I'm also curious to know the gender discrepancy within those numbers.
Do you know what I mean? Right. How many women have tried to join ICE? And do they have the same standards?
Yeah. For the standards. Because when I was in the military, we did not. Women had to do the same amount of sit-ups because we had more core strength.
But we didn't have to do as many push-ups or we could do on the knee push-ups. And we had a little more time to run. And as you got older, they gave you more time. That makes sense.
Young people had 12 minutes to do a mile and a half. 21-year-olds had 14 minutes to do a mile and a half. 26-year-olds had. So it changes as you get older as well, which is why I threw it in fact that I'm 51.
But I think I'm actually too old to join ICE. But maybe not. Maybe they removed the age requirements. But anyway, I just want everybody to be very, very clear.
That I'm not saying if you can't do 15-push-ups or 32-sit-ups and run a mile and have 14 minutes or something wrong with you. Absolutely not. That is not what I also am pretty sure no one listening to this podcast wants to join ICE. Yeah, are you sure?
Yeah. Not 100%. I'm going to prize some trolls out there listening just to get some talking points. Yeah.
But those are very, very, those are pretty remedial physical fitness standards for a federal law enforcement agent. And the fact that a third, I think the bigger story here is a third of the people aren't able to do it. So the Academy standards have already been eased to boost recruitment. And the new parameters should be the minimum for any officer.
He and others, none of whom were authorized to speak with reporters, told the Atlantic that the agency veterans are concerned about the quality of new recruits being fast-tracked onto the street to meet Trump's hiring goals. An email from ICE headquarters to the agency's top officials on October 5th lamented that a considerable amount of athletically allergic candidates has been showing up to the Academy. That's a quote. They had misrepresented their physical condition on application forms.
They lied. Yeah. The email directed leaders at ICE has filled off as a to conduct preliminary fitness exams with new recruits before sending them to the Academy. Now quote, we all know the self-certification method has failed.
So the honor system isn't working with ICE recruits. That sounds strong. They lie and they're not honorable. Weird.
Ralph Ferguson and operations official at ICE headquarters wrote that, by the way. We all know self-certification has failed. The Department of Homeland Security spokesperson Tricia McLaughlin, she lies a mile a minute, told the Atlantic in a statement that the one third failure rate reflected only a subset of candidates. In initial basic academy classes.
So it's like a third of half, a third of a tenth, or is it just a third lady? Because a third is not a subset of anything. It's 33%. And they're not all new hires.
She said DHS expects to fill 85% of new deportation officers positions with an experienced law enforcement officials whom they can fast track. Although they will not be required to pass a fitness test at the ICE Academy, they remain subject to medical fitness and background requirements. Wait. They can fast track people who won't be required to pass a fitness test at the ICE Academy.
Is she just taking the fitness test away? I guess I don't know. The Trump administration has slashed the amount of time that new ICE recruits spend at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Academy in Georgia from roughly four months to eight weeks. Oh my god.
Oh my god. They cut the training in half. Some of the fresh hires have dropped out of the Academy are flunking exams on immigration law and fourth amendment limits on officer search authority. That doesn't surprise me.
One bet. No. And when you cut it from four months to two months, you cut the reading part out. Yeah.
That's what they did at And you and I talked about this unjustified. They took the FBI training academy at Quantico from 18 weeks to eight weeks. The one and a half mile run in particular has toppled more trainees than any other requirement to officials said. I had a feeling that's what it was.
And listen, I'm actually thinking about this. That's like clock in. Nine and a half mile. If you're on a treadmill, about 6.0, a little bit higher than 6.0 on the treadmill.
That's a pretty good job. Yeah. It's not. You know, some people are like, I can walk that.
I know I couldn't. And I would have to go in a pretty good effort to make that time. I was thinking the same. Interesting.
So it is a nine and a half minute mile. It's roughly what it works out to be. So anyway, just want to be clear about that. I'm not shame anybody.
Don't join ICE. Yeah. That's it. That's more of the story, everyone.
Moving on. ICE. OK, sorry. This one's from NPR.
A federal judge ordered the Department of Defense Monday to return books about gender and race back to five school libraries on military bases. In April, 12 students at schools on military bases in Virginia, Kentucky, Italy, and Japan claimed their first amendment rights had been violated when nearly 600 books were removed from the Department of Defense Education Activity, which is the Do, DEA, the Do, DEA. They're schools that they attend in all of those bases. The students, by the way, are the children of active duty service members.
They range from pre-K to 11th grade. The American Civil Liberties Union, otherwise the ACLU of Kentucky and the ACLU of Virginia, filed a motion on behalf of the families requesting a return of all books in curriculum, already quarantined, and removed based on potential violation of the executive orders. In January, Secretary of Defense beat Kegsath issued a memorandum. He said, restoring America's fighting force, which prohibited an, I quote, instruction on critical race theory, DEI or gender ideology, and identity months dead, identity months dead at DOD.
Yeah, that was the name of the memo. OK, which barred using official resources for celebrations, such as Black History Month, Women's History Month, Asian American and Pacific Islander Heritage Month. Uh-huh. According to the plaintiffs, DOD officials sent emails directing teachers to remove books and cancel, lesson plans and events that would be in violation of Trump's executive orders and Kegsath's guidance.
Books removed from school libraries at military bases covered sub-shopics as sexual identity, racism, and, of course, LGBTQ Pride. Two elementary schools canceled Black History Month events. Teachers in a middle school were told to remove posters of education active as Malala, and paid your free to callow, and another school canceled Holocaust Remembrance Day. This is just all history.
It's world history, people, world history. According to the motion filed at the ACLU, the students claimed that when they protested the school's actions, they were punished and became, and I quote, increasingly afraid to discuss race and gender in their classrooms, because they fear being silenced by teachers fearful of violating the EOs and the DOTA guidance. Man, how is Holocaust Remembrance Day shameful to American history? So that's just anti-Semitism.
They're just afraid. I mean, that's the chilling effect, right? That's what they want us to do, is just to be afraid to talk about anything that's in history. That's not white history.
Yeah, and white Christian history. In her decision, US District Judge Patricia Tolliver Geiles cited with students and their families writing that, and I quote, the removals were not rooted in pedagogical concerns, but rather they were, and I quote, in proper partisan motivation, underlying defendants' actions. Geiles wrote that DOD officials must deny, and I quote, immediately, immediately store the books in curricular materials that have been removed. So that is a good one.
Yeah, I've got some good news that they're bringing those books back. I remember when I took them away. I have a friend of mine. I've got many friends who've got friends at the DODA schools who received the notices and shared them with me, and I was just like, my god, they don't want to teach history.
They don't want to teach it at the ICE recruitment training facility either, or Quantico, right? Which is why everybody's failing out. Anyway, thank you for that story. That's good news to return the books.
Everybody, if you stick around right after this quick break, I'm going to talk to Joyce Vance about her new book, and giving up as unforgivable. And I really, really encourage you to listen to this interview. She's one of my favorite people, and I think you'll really enjoy it. Then after that, we'll do the good news.
But first, we're going to take a quick break, so stick around. We'll be right back. After these messages will be good. Right now, the headlines are chock full of data breaches and regulatory rollbacks, making us all vulnerable.
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You'll be glad you did. Everybody, welcome to the breakdown. I'm so excited I get to talk to my very good friends Joyce Vance today, mostly because she's amazing, but also because she has a new book out. And I'm so excited.
There it is. And we're going to talk about that today, because there's a lot in it. It's so, it's chock-full. It is a rich book.
And it's so easy to read and so well written, and so important for what's happening right now. It's so timely. I don't know how you got a book out in a timely fashion, but you managed to do it. I didn't know any better than to agree to do it really quickly.
Had I known, I would not have done it. Because everybody knows how long it takes to get a book out. So let's talk about it. Let's talk about it.
Show us the book again, and let's talk about what prompted you to write it. Give it a little bit. And it's a manual. It's a clarion call.
There's so much important stuff in here. Let's talk about, first of all, the clear analysis of our current situation that is in this book, because that understanding the problem is stuck one in solving the problem. So let's talk a little bit about that. So look, I'm not going to tell you anything that y'all don't already know.
We're in a dangerous moment. And something that I say that I've come to think about more and more is that when we talk about Trump as a king, king is a nice word for dictator. We are perilously close to dictatorship, because we have a president who wants to assume all the power of government for himself. And I think the biggest danger in this moment is when we sometimes overlook.
It's our sense that his rise to power is inevitable. And that's what he wants people to think. He's invincible. It's automatic.
Nothing can stop him. Well, we saw on Saturday that when 7 million of us turn out on a single day, that cramps his style just a little bit. He's reduced to sending out videos of himself as the king of poop. I think it works when we do that.
And I think that we should revel in our own power and strength. Yeah. And not only that, he tears down the East Room, the East Wing facade of the White House. I think that that was honestly kind of a retaliation before he had the permits or anything like that.
Because watching it had the desired effect, I think he wanted it to have, at least on me, which was a bit felt like a gut punch. And the metaphor, Joyce, is not lost on me. I read a lot of Tim Snyder. I read a lot of Ruth Benghyot.
Now I read a lot of Joyce Vance. And we always talk about sort of this intangible idea of dismantling our institutions. And he is literally doing so. And I think he's sending the message that he can do it and no one can stop him, right?
We're in the middle of a shutdown. Government employees like, when this happened to the two of us, you don't get paid. You worry about how you're going to put food on the table. But he can tear down the White House.
But why is that a message? Yeah, it certainly is. And let's talk about the stakes here as well. Because you go into quite a bit of detail on that.
We all saw Stephen Miller on CNN accidentally let slip that the president has plenary power. And right now, we're seeing that play out in the courts where Donald Trump and the Trump administration feels that they have plenary power unreviewable by the courts. And you are so familiar with this terminology as former US Attorney, former prosecutor, and professor, that it's that's the stakes, the danger of the courts, possibly the Supreme Court granting this president plenary power. We already saw a little tease of it when he tried to fire some members of multi-member boards against something called Humphrey's executor, which we know that the Supreme Court conservative majority doesn't like very much unless it's the Fed, which they've said in rulings, particularly in the Gwen Wilcox, Kathy Harris, National Labor Relations Board, Maristus Protection Board ruling.
But that he wants this plenary power to just fire members of multi-member boards that are supposed to be independent checks on the executive. And now we're reaching into the ability to deploy troops and national guard. And the plenary unreviewable power there by saying, well, the local police can't solve 100% of the crime problems. And since they can only solve 99% of the crime problems, I have the plenary power to decide that I have the power to send in the troops to protect federal property, ICE agents, et cetera.
And I was interested in your thoughts on that, because of the stakes that we're talking about here. So we got the analysis of the problem, and then we were talking about the stakes, like you said, we're this close to a dictatorship. So I think you've seized on the most important thread that runs through this entire administration, right? This is Donald Trump versus the Constitution.
This is Donald Trump seizing all the power of government. It's what conservatives admittedly sort of on the far right fringes of the Republican Party for many years, but increasingly moving into the mainstream called the Unitary Executive, this idea that the Article II branch of government, the executive branch is more powerful than anyone else. And so we've seen Trump assert it in a number of ways. As you mentioned, he started with this idea, well, I can hire and fire anyone I want to in the executive branch, right?
I can fire these people on Ways, Allian-dependent wards, even if there are rules that say, I can't, even if Congress has passed laws, I'm gonna do it anyway. And we're now seeing that with United States attorneys, where he is firing US attorneys, replacing them with people who are not Senate confirmed. And so now there's the allegation, both with Alina Haba and in the Eastern District of Virginia, that he's violated the law by doing that. Trump is in court saying, I can do it, I'm the president.
And where it's the most dangerous, I think, is this area that you've identified having to do with deploying the National Guard, because Donald Trump has decided that the states can't do their own police work. Under the Constitution, the police power is reserved to the states, the irony that states' rights Republicans are actually in favor of deploying federal or federalizing troops and then deploying them, as opposed to letting the states solve their own problems is pretty rich. But that's where we are. And the most important issue that's now being teed up in front of the courts is whether or not the courts have any ability to review Donald Trump's decisions when he says as he has, there's a rampant crime problem.
So I must federalize national bar troops and send them onto the streets of Chicago and Portland and maybe San Francisco next week. And Donald's 12 argument is, nobody can look over my shoulder and second-guess me when I make that assessment. A judge in Chicago has said not true. We owe you great deference, Mr.
President, but that does not mean, in essence, she says, your assessment has to pass the smell test. And here in Chicago, it hasn't done that. The Seventh Circuit agreed, a different result in the Ninth Circuit, though, where that court has recently said, well, because the executive branch's use of its power here has been restrained and proportional to the crisis that they're saying exists, whether we agree or not, sending 200 people in to protect this federal building seems to be reasonable to us. Look, that's a split in the circuits.
If that holds up, maybe the Ninth Circuit will hear that case on bonk and will get a different result. Either way, this is on a fast track to the Supreme Court. We know it's headed to the Supreme Court. The same court that has said a president can't commit a criminal violation of law when he's conducting official business.
They're now going to have to decide whether they want to double down on that and set the president up as this strong unitary power, really all encompassing unitary power, that seems to me to violate every precept that the Founding Fathers set forth, or whether the Supreme Court is going to finally tell Donald Trump, no, you answer to the courts. Yeah, and it can be tough because of the use of the shadow docket, the emergency docket. They've lifted a lot of these temporary restraining orders, which doesn't necessarily mean that that's how they're going to decide on the merits, but it gives the sense that they're allowing the Trump administration to do what they want to do, at least for the time being. And I am especially concerned about the Supreme Court because I read Ellie Massalle's books about the loopholes in the Constitution that are constantly being taken advantage of by the Supreme Court that likes to continue to backslide into authoritarianism.
And it's now we're at this whole plenary power question. And I think that it's especially concerning to me with the makeup of this particular court, especially, although again, they have a history of doing wrong things, but this particular makeup of the Supreme Court especially. And I wanted to get back to the vote for a second because it's not just you saying, yeah, this is awful, and terrible things could happen, and terrible things are happening. But by you have very, very concrete things that can be done.
This is a guide book, it's a handbook, right? It's like, because the question I get most when I do town halls, when I speak at events, when people send messages and emails into the podcast, the question is always, what can I do? And instead of saying, well, just fight, the people want concrete steps they can take. I often compare this administration to a house in an episode of Hoarders, where you walk in and it's so chaotic and it's such a mess and it's so overwhelming that it's hard to imagine what you can possibly do.
And I always say pick a corner and start cleaning. And so that's kind of what I'm finding in your book. So talk a little bit about the answer to that question. What can we do because it's on everyone's lips?
Yeah, Ruth Ben Geott writes with so much scholarly authority in her book Strong Men about this deliberate strategy dictators, right? They try to overwhelm us, so we feel like there's no way we can fight back. And the first step is understanding that that's the playing field, that you actually have to clear a little bit of space, work in one of your corners for starters, and understand that they are trying to overwhelm you and you must not permit that to happen. So my view is that we are the cavalry.
We have to be done with waiting for somebody to come in and save us, that's not happening. We're going to save ourselves. And I think there are a lot of positive steps, but the one that I want to talk about that I think is the most important is revitalizing our notion of civics education, because understanding how our institutions work and how for instance we're going to protect the 2026 elections so that we can start rebuilding guardrails against this president, that I think is critically important. And sure we all get civics education in fourth grade or sixth grade.
But what we have to do is start committing to it as a whole of community effort. And let me give you a really specific example, because the biggest challenge that we are going to face in 2026 is proving we are citizens so that we can vote. That's clearly Donald Trump's agenda. And you know it's expensive to prove that you're a citizen.
It means in essence that you have to have a passport. There are some other documents. They can be more difficult yet. Passport is a safe bet and it costs just shy of 200 bucks.
That may mean that as communities we have to pull together and find ways for everybody to get the documentation they need and be able to get a passport so that every American citizen can go in and vote. And look, voting is a right, not a privilege. We should not have to jump through those hoops. But the reality is that we may well have to.
We should face that reality and work together. That's an everyday expression of our civic value. And then Alison, if I can just one more thing that I increasingly think about that's really important, I live in a red state. I've got two Republican senators.
They don't listen to me when I write to them. But I do keep up a running dialogue with them on their websites. We have got to increasingly work together in community to demand of those senators and those members of Congress that they represent us. Look, they serve everybody in their states, not just the people who voted for them or the people who they want to claim as their own.
They're obligated to hear our voices. We're entitled to get answers from them. Why do you continue to support Robert Kennedy, who's making it impossible for me to protect my family through that nation? I think we are going to have to take it to them in large numbers and insist that they behave with greater responsibility.
I am done with giving them a pass and just saying, oh, I have two red senators and throwing my hands up in the air. This is not the fight any of us wanted, but it's the fight we have. Yeah, I remember talking to Judge Ludic, who reminded me that the strongest, or the most power that we have, the strongest check on the executive is the people. And I remember writing back when I was a long time ago when I was doing the Mueller Street Rep podcast and people were sending me Mueller prayer candles and Mueller rosaries and God bless Mueller and everything that I had said and I had written, look, we are the mullers that we've been waiting for.
Do not rely on a single prosecutor to save democracy. And I put out a tweet, we are the mullers we've been waiting for, like it's us. And it always has been. And I think that people who generally are like, somebody else will solve this for us, are now taking to the streets understanding that it is our government.
It does belong to us. That White House that he just tore down the East Wing for, that's our house. And we need to stand up. And I think that we showed that.
We showed that at No Kings One when we had five million people turn out. We showed it here, we have seven or eight million people turning out. I think that we might get up around nine or 10 in the spring when we do it again. And then I'll converge together right before the midterms, but you're right that's so, the idea is to discourage us.
And that's why the giving up is unforgivable is such a powerful book and a powerful idea. And I think it's the underpinning of the entire book is that we do have to do something, but not just telling people to do something. Here are some things that you can do. And I think that that's really amazing.
And I thank you so much for writing this in first book. First book, and thank you for your kind words. I appreciate it. You know, I have so much faith in us.
I mean, here we are, almost 2,500 of us in the middle of the afternoon on a Tuesday. I hope I haven't lost track of days of the week. We are actually civic education happening, right? We are this nation coming together in the way the Founding Fathers envisioned.
And what I know about us is we are not quitters. We will not give up. We will find a way to do this. It may not be pretty, but we will come out of this on the other side with an intact democracy.
Yeah, I agree. And for more civics education, you can subscribe to Civil Discourse by Joyce Vance. And then you can get the book, wherever you get your books. I like to go to my little independent bookstore and order it from them.
And I usually order about 10 or 20 copies so that I can give them out as gifts at the holiday times and then put them in my little free libraries around my neighborhood. So however you get your books, I highly recommend picking this one up. Tell us about it one last time and where people can find and follow you. So it is giving up is unforgivable, a manual for keeping a democracy, like a geomache huge fan of small bookstores.
So if you look it up online, you'll actually see links to Andy booksellers along with the usual suspects. And you can also find me on sub-staff where I'm Civil Discourse or Joyce Vance. You can subscribe for free. I hope that you will.
And thank you so much for spending time with us today. Yes, thank you everybody for being here. Really appreciate it. Just these little things are active resistance.
Find your corner, start cleaning and grab a copy of Giving Up is Unforgivable. Thanks everybody for joining us today on Breakdown. We'll see you next time. Bye y'all.
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You'll be glad you did. Everybody welcome back, it's time for the good news. Watch, go ahead and near. And if you have any little bit of good news, big or small, whether it happened yesterday or 20 years ago, we would love to hear from you.
We also wanna hear your jokes, your favorite jokes, send in your jokes, we all could use a laugh. We also wanna hear shout outs, whether you have a shout out to a loved one or a small business in your area, maybe a nonprofit doing some great stuff, some great community activism, a self shout out, a shout out to a government program that's helped you or a loved one. We would love to hear that as well. And then of course, please send in anything and everything about your experience during no kings.
We wanna hear about that. And maybe what you're gonna do for the holidays. There's a lot of holidays coming up in Q4. So let us know about that.
All you gotta do to get your stuff right on the air is pay your potterif, which means attach a photo of your pet. And if you want, we can try to guess the breeds in your shelter pot. If you don't have a pet, send an adoptable pet in your area. We'll see if we can find them home.
Pretty good track record to do in that. If you don't have that, just really grab a random animal photo off the internet and you can work. And baby animals, especially we love really into frogs these days. I have been for a long time, but now especially with Portland.
And then you can also send in bird watching photos, which is an actual bird, or you and your family and friends flipping the bird to Trump buildings. Of course, we also accept photos of the No Kings Rally, your favorite signs, maybe your hobby, the way that you're passing time, the way that you kind of unplug, whether you're knitting or crocheting or painting or writing, whatever it is, you can send it to us. And maybe you're putting something in your garden, we'd love to see it. Send it to us, dailybeanspot.com, click on contact.
First up is your good trouble. And your good trouble today comes from David pronouncing on him, the North Carolina General Assembly is contemplating the Orange Menaces call for gerrymandering. The public comment period is now open. So I hope my fellow Tar Heel Lagoonati will make their voices heard about this utter trash idea.
We'll have a link in the show notes. For my Tariff, I present our retired race in Greyhounds, Lucy and Julia, all dressed up for No Kings in Carrey, North Carolina this past Saturday. Look at this. Oh my gosh, how cute.
Royal hounds against royalty. Moved it. No Kings, look at these dogs, they're beautiful. Thank you so much.
Thank you, David. Yes, this is from Julie Pronoun. She and her, Hey Beans, Queens, I thank goodness for your podcast every day. I'm a long time listener and you provide me good information and a feeling for community, which is so crucial in these days where there are so many forces trying to divide us.
I have a brother who thinks that protesting against the Trump administration is just performative and actually dangerous to our cause. He frequently writes letters to the editor, but this one almost made me choke on my toast. There's a picture included. No need to read his name on air.
Right after reading it, I went with a friend to do a Saturday, A.M.M. Bridge Brigade, on a pedestrian bridge, over a busy highway and sent him my picture. And on No Kings Day in Minneapolis, we all showed up. Yes, you did.
I was out there. I saw this, I saw the protest. I also wanted to include a pick of my pup and his pals at the dog park and the beauty of Morning Glory is that line of defense of the dog park, finding beauty every day is a blessing in my life. Amazing.
I don't see the letter to the editor, do you? I do not, which maybe, maybe that's a divine intervention, but I hope we'd love to see it. Yeah, if you'd like us to read it without divulging his name, Julie, please send it in. But look at the beautiful doggos and look at that.
Look at the rally. That's amazing. Impeech, remove, convict. I love it.