Awesome at boring: the unglamorous habits that fund real growth, with Jon Morris

Send us Fan MailEpisode summaryMost marketing leaders can walk into a room and defend their channels, their campaigns, and their creative. Far fewer can walk into the CFO's office and defend their budget in the language that office actually speaks. In this episode, Jon Morris makes the case that this gap is the single biggest thing holding marketing leaders back, and he hands over the benchmarks and mental models to close it. Jon turned a $10,000 business plan prize into Rise Interactive, one of the largest independent digital marketing agencies in the world, at nearly $40 million in revenue and a nine time Inc. 5000 run, before an impressive exit. He now runs Fiscal Advocate and Engine BI, building the financial infrastructure marketing organizations too often fly blind without.The heart of the conversation is a simple, uncomfortable truth: you will not grow faster than your competition if you spend less on sales and marketing as a percentage of revenue than they do. Jon lays out the benchmarks he coaches leaders to, walks through the only three ways to actually grow revenue, and explains why marketing that can't connect to one of those levers has a short shelf life. He also gets into "difficult is good," his framework for finding a real differentiator and then investing behind it until it becomes a moat, including the two question test that exposes whether your "we're data driven" positioning means anything at all.Threaded through it all is Jon's philosophy of being "awesome at boring," the process discipline and data driven management that compound quietly over years, and a grounded take on AI: not a replacement for marketers, but a multiplier for the ones who bring human taste, judgment, and orchestration to the tools. For any marketing leader or founder trying to fund growth, prove impact, and build enterprise value rather than just revenue, this one is a masterclass.What you'll learnThe three KPIs that actually matter and the only three ways to grow revenue: retain existing customers, upsell them, or win new businessWhy marketing that can't be tied to a measurable business outcome struggles to earn a seat at the leadership tableThe benchmarks Jon coaches to: roughly 20% organic growth, 20% EBITDA, and an 8% of revenue average spend on sales and marketing, and why growth leaders sit on the "spend more" side of that lineHow to build the case for a bigger marketing investment when your CFO doesn't already share that philosophyThe "difficult is good" approach to differentiation and the two question test that separates real positioning from cookie cutter claimsWhat "awesome at boring" looks like in practice, and why data driven management is the unglamorous engine behind durable growthA realistic view of AI in marketing: where human taste and judgment stay irreplaceable, and how orchestration becomes its own differentiatorThe mindset shift from running a revenue business to building enterprise value, and why that changes the bets you makeFeatured guestJon Morris is the founder of Rise Interactive, which he grew from a $10,000 business plan prize into one of the largest independent digital marketing agencies in the world, reaching nearly $40 million in revenue, around 250 people, and nine appearances on the Inc. 5000 before its acquisition. He stepped down as CEO in March 2020. Today he is the founder and CEO of Fiscal Advocate and Engine BI, where he functions as an outsourced finance department and data infrastructure partner for marketing agencies and services businesses, helping leaders make better decisions with better numbers. A self described student of business and champion of being "awesome at boring," Jon is a frequent voice on agency economics, growth strategy, and the financial side of marketing leadership.Connect with JonWebsite: fiscaladvocate.comLinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/jonmorrisramsayinnovationsConnect with the showLevel Agency: level.agencyPatrick Patterson on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/pattersonworkBrad Stephenson on LinkedIn: linkedin.com/in/bradpstephensonMeet our CRO, Howard Diamond EpisodeHow to support the showIf this episode was useful, here is how you can help more marketing leaders find it:Subscribe to Good Enough Isn't wherever you listenShare this episode with a colleague who owns a marketing budgetRate and review the show, it genuinely helps others discover it