B.J. Novak

Welcome welcome welcome welcome to arm chair expert. I'm Dan Shepherd. I'm joined by Monica Lee Batman good afternoon, sir Good afternoon to you. We have an incredibly talented human being today B.

J. Novak Of course B. J. Is an actor a writer comedian a director and a New York Times best-selling author well first and foremost He was on to his right followed in your footsteps.

Well, he created his own path listen He's in the office. He was also a writer producer on that show. He directed episodes the Mindy Project and Gloria spastered saving Mr. Banks the founder and he has a new show called the premise on effects on Hulu and The premise is an anthology series is very cool because each episode is its own encapsulated story Yeah, also it's worth saying that I start out as a shithead in this episode, but bear with us I guess that would be my it's a pretty interesting episode.

It is it is so it's an interesting episode And I learned a lot please enjoy B. J. Novak Does it feel too close is that what it is? I just don't know how I sound I sound like Mikey.

Yeah, that's the dream You sound great. Listen. I sound Mikey. No, no, listen.

Yeah, I have a theory. Give me a worse mic. No, no, no, no in fact You probably have a nice is it has the lowest miles on it that Mike. Yeah, don't you think you sound smart?

Because this is what I love when I have a mic on me. Oh my god. I love it You sound even as I close my eyes and you start talking you sound like a professor already. Wow Voice and look I think I look very serious.

Yeah, I think this is gonna be a fun interview And I'm gonna start with love and benevolence and say I think I don't like you I'm already interacting with you in the driveway and then here I think I like you but I think I thought I didn't like you and I can't wait to get in From a distance sometimes. Yeah, well, no, I say something just not happy the worst thing anyone's ever said amazing way to make it I will say that he's never said that to a guest before it does happen before a lot He's like I don't like I like this person. Why do you have someone on cuz I'm wrong all the time? I mean I talked to you since he's always yeah Yeah, that's like the magic of humans end of this show.

Yeah, but I don't think I did a dislike you I had it in my head that you didn't like me. I was obsessed with you competitively Yeah, that's why I want to say I might have known that or since that I might have I tried to tell you that once at the improv like 10 years ago And you had a distracted look you were thinking about I was about to do stand you're probably about to which I never had done Oh my god. Yeah, like hey, that's kind of a funny story You know, I'm gonna panic inside right yeah, you caught me on like I think for two years I did stand up because I had moved here to stand up I was just too afraid and I did sketch instead it's safer and then I just kept thinking you still have to do it So then I did it as a dare to myself so when you saw me and by the way, you can probably notice completely by myself I have no friends in that world so I'm just there panicking right? You're so tall that you kind of loomed large.

So you were kind of looking around you look very heroic Oh my god, so to me and I'm fine and I'm looking up to you and you always were like in my head my big brother that I can Never touch up to because of punked okay, I'm talking to Dax I'm gonna be friends with him and you know you were looking at the stage No, you looked very godlike to me you're blind and six or you don't like like anyone else at the improv It's like misshapen small guys. Okay, like a movie started me. Oh my god. He doesn't know idea See this is this is fucking perfect So all we really just learned I think is that you and I are very similar so most of people that we talked to I say like Well, I met you this one time and they're like yeah, my dad I just got diagnosed like had nothing to do with you, but I create these enormous stories what people don't like me I start with you probably don't like me to anybody yeah, just enjoy I have that too, but I'm often right I actually never like well person.

I never disliked you. Yeah, I just I had this suspicion You didn't like me so I don't think I like me because we were on we're both on punk well I'm jealous So you were on pongton became hugely known for that and then I was cast on season two of punk I was the guy who followed you up yes I thought here we go I'm gonna be as big as X and I was definitely I had a moment where everyone knew me from punked Yes, I ran into yeah, but they were when I told them they're like did you do that just in timber like I said no I mean ask me that so it's like they know the timber like but they don't necessarily know I did were you're still an icon from that Oh my god, and I like you know I was on it, but so you know I was a damn it I thought that was a guarantee I left it and then I never watched it for all kinds of reasons You didn't watch your season or the next season. I didn't watch the next of course not of course I watch my season cuz it was the first time I was on TV and I was so excited yeah the first time you were on TV Oh, yeah, it's so it's really it was unbelievable and also it's so high stakes because it's okay your first time ever on TV Here's the situation you're with an enormous star. They don't know you're acting correct one take and if they realize it's not real You lose everything what a way you lose your talk.

It's so high stakes It is never happened that someone was like you're punking me by then or yeah, it happened on my season Yeah, I happen one time did it happen on your season. Yeah, but they weren't sure right. It's I'm being pumped right I'm being pumped. I might be in punk and you'd say no and they just like fuck I could have sworn but I guess I gotta take this is real I wanted to be peers with all those people so I was definitely thinking like well I have to take this opportunity because there's no I'm not getting any opportunities other than the show punked And it seems like it's pretty curtilled with my skill set But I'm gonna meet all these people I like want to be friendly with and peers with and they're all gonna hate my guts Like I'm gonna meet most of people in Hollywood on the show and they're all gonna hate is that what happened though?

That isn't what happened. Yeah, but that's what I was afraid of right? Yeah, just like oh great Well, maybe I'll get a chance to be in things with a normal being anything with me because I've already angered everyone Yeah, it's hard to shake a first impression. Yes.

Okay now. Let's talk about physical because I want to talk about what you think You bring to the scenario that you have no control over so let me just be very specific for my point of view I find especially in Hollywood I triggered this thing in some people that I was a jock in high school and shove people shove people yeah, okay I've had that experience where I'm honest that I can't figure out why someone doesn't like me right And then I feel like I've got to go like you know, I was a skateboarder and I was artsy and I was Correct like I wasn't the dude shoving people right? I feel like that's my little bit of baggage poor me as a tall white man Don't you feel bad for me? It's free.

Well, I think it's cool. I mean Dax is such a cool name in my opinion now Yeah, so I saw you as the cool kid, but okay, but no I have absolutely my own version of that I have this very serious face and people know I went to Harvard Which to me I was like book yeah like I'm gonna be the guy I went to Harvard and like did cool shit with it Yeah, and instead everyone just like okay, mr fucking Harvard, you know and I was like we know I'm like you like I was the guy who's gonna do cool stuff Yes, and no you just become in a category and you triggering people whatever issues they have with a certain type of person All of a sudden you're that type yes, you know, even though that was the type that I didn't like now I'm not to these people yeah Yeah, I may have done that to you a little bit like I think I may be of a sess that you were cerebral right and you're like Oh, you're gonna think on the dumb kid in class. Yes people think that I'm smart and think they're not smart and that you're judging them for not Yes, yes, and that's the up like my big I tear up I must have some trauma maybe that's why I went to it But when I talk about people who think they're not smart like I get teary eyed like sure I must have been made to think I wasn't smart as a kid and was like I'll show them or something Yeah, because it's my biggest sort of trigger is that the shadow of your super intelligent successful father? No, I don't think so I guess I would just imagine he's been very successful as a writer.

Yeah, yeah It's a writer which is what I learned something today, which is I didn't know men sometimes goes right for women well sure I didn't Nancy Reagan's biography. Yeah, well, I think it's like writing a female character You learn someone's voice. Uh-huh. I think when I write characters I'm doing the same type of thing.

It's like okay Jim and Pam would say this Mike would say you're getting in their head You're imagining if you were them. Yeah, I think that's what a ghost writer does But it's for whatever person is writing the memoir so it's Magic Johnson one day and Nancy Reagan the next day to Magic Johnson Oh, wow, so he does mostly out of my like memoirs. Yeah, yeah, we was also one of the authors of like the history of Jewish jokes or something I wrote the book of Jewish humor. Yeah, yeah, so that means that he was funny as well or at least liked he loves comedy He loves comedy.

Wow. So for him having you be an insanely prolific comedy writer. That must be so cool You think he's very proud. Yeah, yeah, he's probably he's Canadian So he's very reserved about all that yeah on the spectrum They're just to the left of Sweden as far as like allergic to compliments and fanfare.

Yes It's very very very buttoned up in the grand scheme of things. Yes in terms of Jewish comedy lovers It's a very Michael's is Canadian too, and I think also like famously like his approval is doled out a little bit at a time Yes, that sort of thing okay, so given this what you just said that people think you're smart and the triggers Maybe some and then I think they're not smart. That's right. That's what tells me is that I do think I'm smart But I think I think of myself I always have as like the kid who is playing pranks and getting in trouble in smart ways and being clever and you know having fun With that kind of thing not the AP bio right?

Yeah, so but I then people I think put me in that category and they have issues with that type of person Which is the type of person I had issues with? Yes, you project. Yes, yes Yeah, there's a part of me that wants to lean into it is an actress like okay Well, I'll play the bad guy will if I can all play that person I'll be iconic well my mother to lamented at one point She said like are you ever gonna play anyone that's smart because I kind of made a niche for myself playing idiot Well the accuracy is literally yeah, and like I was in this movie baby Mom he was kind of a dipshit and I've just played a lot of dipshits Which and then I said to my mom, you know, they have to be represented in the movies and film like I'm happy to have a lane I think everybody is smart that is my my weird passionate belief and maybe it goes into this thing I was talking about but I think like if I go to Las Vegas and sit down at a poker table Right I will get my ass handed to me by people who are doing all of this mental math and psychological math And I'm sure they don't think of themselves as smart quote unquote in that way They just know how to do this that is so intelligent I went to an oil field for this film I was doing I just asked oh, what's your job? Yeah, this oil worker understands how the entire ecosystem works And if he makes one mistake the whole state explodes Yeah, this is an unbelievable intelligence But this is thought of as sort of and he probably thinks of himself I'm just a blue collar guy and I don't know I feel but technically you know Here's how the whole system works Yeah, and I could never do that and so intelligence is taught to us and I have been a very unfair beneficiary of Intelligence is thought to be using big words.

Well. Yes Yeah, yeah, and writing them well in class and looking serious as you say them Yeah, and so yes So I get to be considered intelligent to the level that people like you present it Yeah, I mean while all these people that are so smart in ways that that are just not fairly measured Yeah, certain things are measured and certain things are not yeah, and I think everybody is smart well almost everybody But I really did almost everybody is very smart I'm with you I'm with you because I am super into motor sports So I follow a lot of people that are like welders and fabricators and these kinds of things Yeah for a human being to have the ability to like stare at a workbench for an hour and then start picking up metal and cutting it in a Way and then welding it in a way and then making it functional. Yeah, how many people can do that? You know it's insane.

Yeah, and it's just not prized whatsoever right and emotional intelligence I feel like no one's incorporating that into the spectrum of intelligence like you can be crazy book smart But I have no idea how to operate in the world and connect with people and then yeah Yeah, like that doesn't serve me absolutely. Yeah, and that's not even like a separate category of intelligence understanding a human being Why is that any different from understanding mathematics? It's just something to understand that is incredibly complex that requires a lot of analysis, etc Yeah, and then of course along the way we meet tons of actors that have varying levels of education and they can be like fucking brilliant I can't act like them. That's a thing right.

That's like some version of intelligence. Yeah, yeah, it's very narrow what we decided to prize It's insane and also I'll say another thing like writing itself And I think this will be broken down over the next generation But people think of writing it's this traumatic thing where you're in third grade and writing is literally doing penmanship Yeah, with correctly remembered letters Yeah, and paragraphs and some kids are told you're a good writer and I'm gonna tear again some kids are told you're not a good writer because You misspelled wonderful you but to else and forever you think I'm not a good writer then you meet these people out here who are unbelievable storytellers and that like Tarantino it is nothing to do With your handwriting tell a story can you imagine can you add depth and the writing is really composing? It's not with the pen but like even that is just so so misunderstood That's a really great point because I got to say the thing that I transitioned from dyslexic blah blah blah the whole thing left handed The worst manmanship you've ever seen can't spell a damn thing the word processor came around I don't know that I would have ever become a writer had that happens now I'll be said in my shit looked as smart as everyone else's Yeah, because it's just print and then I have the assistance of spelling correctly Yes, well check and that just changed my whole life Absolutely and think of if you were to leave a voice note on your phone or or something and it would just naturally transcribe You versus someone who got a better grade in fourth grade like it would look the same right and it should be so It's I mean writing when you think about it is a system of symbols invented to get information in an intermediate phase from one person to the other Right, we don't necessarily need it anymore So now it's just about how good were you at that random shortcut of the alphabet? Yeah, yeah, like in 50 or 100 years when you can just communicate only with video and you don't necessarily need to rely on this alphabet It might actually free people a lot like I love letters and stuff like it is just a system Yes, delivery of information and if you're not good at that system is nothing to do with whether you're good at thinking and talking and communicating Right.

Yes But have you had this thought because I have in the past and less and so now because it's not happening But there was a part of me that was like I don't want this profession opened up to people who are not willing to suffer And I mean writing specifically Mm-hmm like I take pride in how much suffering is involved in loneliness And so I thought well if everyone just talk out a script is everyone gonna do it and now there's no accomplishment That was my fear. Uh-huh and then that did what were you just justifying your own pain maybe? Well, how about this? I just think a lot of people don't have the Constitution to sit down and do it and I was grateful I did and now I thought oh this little advantage I had is probably gonna go away with voice dictation Yeah, but I suffer so much for it and don't want to I hope it doesn't need to happen.

Yeah, I gotta work on this Yes, so this will be a question I love asking which is what do you write from like what is the source of fuel you use to write because it's not I'm assuming it's not pleasant for you either. Yeah, someone said writers are people for whom writing is harder than it is for other people Uh-huh if you suffer and struggle, that's the difference. We're launched now This could go into 90 different directions. Give me another favorite writing quotes.

Yes, Philip Roth said ditch digging is hard work writing is a nightmare You know the Lawrence Cas didn't want writers are people who have agreed to do homework the rest of their life No, that's good That's what I felt like when I was writing a lot like oh just doesn't end your own vacation But you're like oh yeah, oh yeah everything you think yeah It's just this constant game with yourself My very favorite is sort of what I was saying before which is Christopher Hitchens who said to his students if you can talk You can write and everyone in the class relax, and then he said but how many of you can really talk? That's good and then obviously the very famous one I don't know where it came from but it's I hate writing But I love having written. Yeah, that's true about so much It is but I love writing at the beginning that first burst when an idea makes you smile You think am I crazy or is this a great idea? Yeah, you're writing it and writing I love that And then when when you send it to someone they're like this is good, but I would fix this then if it comes off I never pitch anything I know how an idea and I write it and then I send it out and whoever gets it and wants to make it Makes it I think that's the move it's lonely and scary, but at least if someone wants to do it You know they want to do it for the right reasons I think it would just be a delayed torture to tell someone an idea they say yes Yeah, then you show them what you did and they're like oh I kind of wanted it different now.

It's really a problem That's when I stopped because invariably that is a hundred percent what happens is every single time Three months later when you turn in a draft they're trying to remember this meeting you had three months ago where you said x y and z But they put it in a cat I had this experience once I sold the show time and it's a sterile haul idea I had I was gonna play a fictitious version of Daryl Hall in the 80s And so in my mind like tonally it was gonna be like kind of like California cation But newer and so when I got back in I turned it in David Evans who I fucking adore I'm sure you like him too. He's the greatest guy in Hollywood. He goes me I just I thought you were doing a will Ferrell version of this show and I'm like oh yeah, I get that I'm not Now where we at you know and then you're just like oh that can happen in the Car yes, it's or yes. I'm driving on the parking lot isn't it great looking at its 30 miles again.

I'll be a truck Yeah, yeah, I got that you're building a truck. Yeah, I just was thinking during that cuz only half listening I'm brain train going do you think part of the reason you dax have this little tiny bit of what we allergy to B.J. Is well, that's because I thought he didn't like I know I'm gonna break down further I think it might be more than that. I think it might be that you're a writer who Didn't go to Harvard who didn't doesn't have this like credential above him didn't write for the lampoon isn't able to say like And can't like have that on your resume.

So maybe you feel insecure. I didn't know him at Harvard until yesterday Oh, so that is a great theory and I am very triggered by people who are smart and I think are like no I went way deeper than that. It was just a clear. I just thought this guy doesn't like me I don't know why he doesn't like me, but had you remembered meeting me?

I do vaguely remember meeting you at the improv But I've met you other places too. No, I've been so jealous of you the whole time But I guess it's not that I know it's an admiring jealousy thing. I just thought you didn't like I'm wrong This is always what I did you have me on to be right me or oh no God. No, no, no I heard from Robbie BJ has a new show should we have a month?

I said I don't think he likes me and the rops said no he actually told me in this email He kind of had a competitive thing with you. Yeah. Oh, that's exciting. Yeah, I'm like a whole different thing Yeah, let's talk.

I'm not freak talk anybody. Yeah every time I thought someone didn't like me I was wrong. Well, no some people don't like me, but I'm often wrong. Let's just start there That's kind of I assume people don't like me and wrong all the time.

I'm usually right. No, no, no, no No, you just became a movie star like immediately after the show that I did I mean I kept slogging away as a writer But it looked more fun what you were doing well Let's get into that because I don't think and I said this when I laughed pumped I was like the people that come in now are not gonna be given what I was given because they learned that that comes with a lot I'll be very specific like I got to some one of the bits towards the end I already shot most of them in fact that showed already aired so now I'm in a wig and all this stuff and I go to this NFL Golf thing and I interview people and when I get there the premise is you're gonna ask this guy about he's supposed to be Everyone thinks he's gay this guy like I think he hit his girlfriend You're bringing that up in the interview blah blah blah blah and I go oh yeah I'm not gonna I don't want to do any of that like just air everyone's dirty laundry and like no no That's the bit and I was like yeah, I'm not gonna do that I'll do something else give me 20 minutes to write something like we came up with Other things that worked out but I could see in their face. They're like this sucks. This dude We hired to come do this thing we've written it.

He's just saying to us. He's not gonna do it Uh-huh my hunch was they weren't gonna let anyone else have as much autonomy as I had going forward Do you think that was the case or no? I didn't doubt anything they told me uh-huh, but I guess maybe it just wasn't so bad on my season I think they were learning in the first season and then I think they figured out more and more what worked But I definitely think they focused more on the prank going forward as opposed to what could potentially just happen was shooting the shit Mm-hmm in root to the prank. Yeah, I thought the pranks were pretty clever.

Uh-huh, yeah, they were about the pranks Yes, and they were the kind of pranks that if they were played on me I was like whoa, that's funny that blew my mind. Yeah, they had an appetite to let people run after I was there But I don't know that's just my guess right. I wasn't there to run. I mean I was there I was so excited.

Yeah, you know, I was a writer on a sitcom called raising dad and started doing stand-up someone said Oh, you should audition for punk. I did I got it. Yeah, I could tell anybody Ashin Kutcher was like the coolest person in the world. He's like whispering in my ear what to do with the audition You know, it was incredible.

So when I got there, yeah, okay today like you are doing a photo shoot with a little bow out and a tiger By the way, this was one of them keep telling him to get closer to the tiger. He's scared of tigers They're the fuck isn't scared of the tiger. Yeah, literally the secreted word thing happened the next week. Oh my god.

Yeah, so thank God Yeah, so did you have fun doing it or are you so stressed during both? I loved it so much Yeah, but one time I was doing with Tommy Lee and I was so scared and they were like we don't know how he's gonna behave Just roll with anything. I was like, okay, and I have my ID in my pocket and at the end of the prank My idea I had crumpled it so much that it was unusable because I was just my nervous gesture Yeah, I was so nerve-wracking, but it was really fun. Yeah, I thought I love pranks.

Yeah, that someone else would set up a prank for me It was like the height of luxury if I were a billionaire. I probably a higher someone like come up with some pranks and let me do them That's a fascinating difference because I actually didn't do pranks ever. Okay, like I was too lazy. I think you don't like praying.

Yeah, I don't like You like roasts. No, I hate roasts. Oh, I'm too sensitive. Yeah, me too.

Oh, I would be thinking like if I got roasted five years ago I'd still be thinking about the things that absolutely yeah, and I'd be thinking you know, are you mad at me? You know I said my part I don't get it off. They are funny. Yeah, oh Jeff Ross is a genius in that way And when it seems like they're enjoying a great I don't have the thick enough skin for that at all But I'm still obsessed with your opening question like I think I don't like you so like literally we're all Roast it would just be like it would be that for a Yeah, for the rest of your life, but I hope I'm being really clear in that I think I was like oh I don't think I like him defensively because I didn't think he liked me But now I'm realizing I was completely wrong.

Well, no, I mean it's competitive Like I see you succeed like fuck like how am I gonna do that? Yeah, so literally like acts like shaking my fist But like not like he doesn't deserve it. He sucks. Okay.

Yeah, that's the decision. Yeah, that's why I was like excited to be like Hey, you're kind of like oh, I don't get that way with a lot of people But I know I feel terrible. No, I want to be honest with you. Yeah, well, that's the fun of the show.

I guess yeah Level roast why I think this could be the Louie C K mark marin episode Yeah, yeah, all right. We're all should go with it I don't know we're gonna have to fabricate some stuff. We really don't have that sense of history But I'm realizing I'm completely wrong. I'll give you another example Aziz You've been around Aziz a bunch of sure must have met him nine times in that same phase when I was gonna stand up Well, yeah, like this guy does not like me like I don't know what I try very hard when I'm around him to get him to like me And I'm very I asked him a bunch of questions blah blah blah and then I know where I just got a tax from him one day That was like hey, I'm thinking about buying this watch I guess you have the same watch and I think it's super nice And I was like oh, yes, some people just don't have the personality that I associate with being like being interested in being friendly They're in their head.

Yeah, sure like that's what you were at the improv. Yes, you're right as he's in his head Which is hard for me to believe because he's such a pro stand up, right? But you're right like you're right every memory I have a medium is at a club Yeah, and it's backstage and you're right people are probably even him and again Do you think what's happening is you in your head or like he thinks he's a professional and I'm not yeah? Yeah, yeah for sure.

Yeah, that's imposter syndrome. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was true on many accounts Like he's not thinking that though, right? He's not even thinking about me thinking about his shoes are good or not Yeah, it's pants look good all the stuff I think about yeah, originally was writing gonna be the thing I think we have this in common like what did you just know like oh writing was somehow gonna be yeah? I was always good at writing the same way I said is unfair that like you're spelling in your grammar like I was good at that I didn't think it was anything special Yeah, and then I remember seeing pulp fiction in theater and I understood like a lightning bolt that someone had written this Someone had made every decision and that was the coolest guy in the world and I had seen Quentin Tarantino in a magazine And I was like I get it okay that thing that I do that's my ticket because also my dad did it was like being a dentist That's true.

Yeah, so I was like okay now. I'm gonna be like this writer But it's gonna be this glamorous rock and roll thing. Yeah, yeah Can I just tell you that we have that in common? I saw a ball fiction I know and I was like something's different here Yeah, you see his fingerprints on it like I remember a song came on I was like a person shows that song I get it now I get it I thought movies just happened why is that sausage in every single frame?

Yeah, just watch it two nights ago with a friend and didn't want to cuz I've seen it 300 times But the friend had only seen it once I'll get through this because I want him to enjoy it one second and I'm like fucking Want to watch this movie for the rest of my life a two-hour trailer in the sense that every single moment like well That's the icon It just goes on the whole way You're at that was a percent right each time a scene would start or they would switch their timeline or whatever I'd be like, oh, right? This is it. This is the thing. Yeah, that moment and that moment It's just the whole way through.

Oh my god. Oh my god. It just staggering it really is really and then I saw an article in the The newspaper that about Conan O'Brien having gone to Harvard and I got good grades not great grades But I was like I'm gonna get into Harvard I'm gonna write for that lampoon then I'll be a comedy writer then I'm gonna be Tarantino Yes, and I devoted myself and I got some lucky breaks and I got like much of that path What are good grades like a 3-8? I don't know what the numbers were like a might be plus a minus Okay, my parents were surprised that I got in as soon as I got in their revisionist history was like oh he was always You know, you know, he was going to Harvard from sixth grade.

Yeah, not at all It was a long shot and they were shocked. Yeah, I remember that very well. I was what I think the secret sauce was Did you write a great essay? I assume you probably read a great admit I think I did write a good essay.

I remember in the interview I was talking to the guy he wasn't very interested He wasn't impolite or whatever and he said why should you go to Harvard? And I said because I'm not gonna sleep and he started writing and I meant it I was like if I get into a place like this I'm gonna waste a fucking second like and I meant it Yeah, and then when I got there it was kind of sad because a lot of people wanted to be investment bankers I was like to me you go here you become president right from a legend Like that's yeah to me this was a place for a rebel to go and come out on the other side Yeah, so many people there weren't right. That's what I saw it as you know Everyone saw me as one of those guys. Yeah, yeah, yeah I know it's not the exact same thing But I find myself places often where I'm like this is my crew, huh?

Like I want to do this I'm super into off-roading go out into the desert and every single vehicle has a Trump flag Well, I'm not a Trump person or when I wrote Harley's I'd be at gas stations in the chats I'd be involved with them like I don't feel like I'm in the group that I'm trying to be in Does it make any sense? So like if I would have gone to Harvard with that expectation I would have looked around and be like wait Oh, it's not the thing I kind of thought it was what's kind of scary because it's like am I that because if I like the same thing These people like are people seeing me like they see them which is scary for certain people because everyone puts everyone in a category I mean I did to you and you to me. Oh, he's the cool kid. Yeah, he's the smart guy who thinks I'm stupid or whatever Yeah, yeah, yeah, and it's not what you're trying to say right but the funny thing about acting is that then you get hired for that You know what I mean, that's true.

Yeah, like probably when you were up for the August you're like, oh, I'm a huge idiot You got a different guy. I am. It's like I see a partner. It's like this obnoxious asshole.

I'm like dude. I was born I'm just like I'm definitely kidding me. I'm a fucking big ass loser of all. I think you're so right But can I ask you so this is the only group I've ever landed in where I was like oh, yeah Yeah, this is exactly my tribe which tribe show business like when you got to the office Yeah, you're there with the annuals and Mike sure are you at that point unlike Harvard going like uh-huh?

This is my vibe. Yeah, yeah, that was very exciting. Yeah that group stay tuned for If you dare So you have brothers and sisters two brothers two brothers and what order are you in I'm the oldest and you think you fit all the Stereotypes of first one probably yeah, so I have my sob story about being a middle child Which is I was invisible what what's the burden of the first one the burden of the first one? I don't know I think I felt a lot of pressure not from my parents just I felt like okay I got to do great stuff all the time my parents really calm down But I don't know if that's an oldest child thing though.

Yeah, yeah, but it seems like it is like I'm the leader I'm an oldest as well Yeah, I think it's that your parents give you so much attention when you're an oldest because they're parenting for the first time So they're learning all this stuff and it's really crucial that they put the warm water on your body the right way like everything's scarier for them So it's a little bit heightened and then with the second and third kids It's like oh, I know how to do this is easy. They get less attention. They get less like anxiety I think just to be literal yet. There's more investment in the first child there are in all subsequent children as someone who has two kids I can attest to that like my first one was like dialed in 24 seven and second was like oh, yeah, she'll live Yeah, like I already did this I know this yeah, I don't need a stare at her all day long She'll just fine so maybe you have like maybe just you have a sense of the investment that went in when you're a first born Maybe but my parents were always like calm down.

It's okay. Just chill. Yeah Are you anxious? Yeah, I think so what kind of kid were you in high school?

I was like exactly like I am now But how did that do in Boston? I went to a good public school Okay, and there was definitely a place for the sort of like literary not a loser not a cool kid Yeah, kind of in the middle had his friends like watching the Simpsons Yeah, yeah smoked weed at a party if you could get to that party once in a while Sure, sure, sure, sure, isn't usually invited but isn't completely out of place. Also does this homework that was a very I felt normal How about dating in high school? Yeah, I had a wonderful girlfriend named Jenny Albertini For how long like two years and then did college you guys went to different places?

Yeah broke up like a classic Oh, you know first winter break? Oh No, no, I mean that's not as real people told me what happened. I was like never not to me and Jenny Yeah, and what is generally the forces behind that my assumption is you go away you miss one another There's a ton of options all around you know people yeah Yeah, well, I really gonna spend this four-year experience of my life not interacting with any members of the opposite sex It was more that it felt like the world was opening It just felt like I didn't want to be right or wrong like I didn't want to be with my high school girlfriend It was a small town. Yes.

Yes. Look at how cosmopolitan the world is now. I'm gonna have these great adventures Is there any way for you to look at her? Oh, we're in touch.

Yeah, okay. Yeah. Okay. Great.

No, she's the greatest Okay, yeah I had a girlfriend in high school too that I very much love and I was with her like four years and I moved here and Same thing I lived in LA she lived in Michigan and then just at some point was untenable like I tell young people like Mary them Like I think that really look I you found love but to me there is something about that reverie when you are young 18 1921 I mean probably a lot of people give the opposite advice, but to me I'm like follow it follow it You might not get that again like it's that moment in life that Romeo and Juliet thing. Yeah, I don't know Oh, it's so I maybe follow it. I don't know people change so much in their 20s. It's probably bad advice But who gives it?

No one gives out that's true. It's very counter. Yeah, you would have to give that advice. Yeah, yeah Should they get in pregnant high school too?

B.J. recommends high school senior start programming Yeah, I have all these friends from middle school and high school who are still with their partners and they still are you Just saw a bunch of them. I just saw a bunch of them. They're letting and they are and I'm always expecting to go and be like Oh boy, this is gonna be tough to watch and then they're like totally great Yeah, and it's also phases right like I've seen these people for 20 something years and there are times where I'm like Oh, yeah, I know it.

Yep This is the end of that and I called it and And then the internu phase right they have kids or something and then they like revive the relationship I'm like I guess that's just a regular relationship where there's ups and downs and yeah, it's nice Your life is your life You don't actually meet that many people in your life every single person that you meet is one of a very finite number I feel like when we get to heaven if there were such a thing I just mean hypothetically yeah, but like let's say we met those three awkward encounters and this we saw each other We'd like Dax like wait, you know each other like you don't even have to be friends on this planet Like just the fact that you met that's yourself like the point 001% of people you've ever met it would be so exciting if you were somewhere scary and you saw you know So you never really interacted. Yeah, you know while you were talking I was listening But you know how you were out you were trying to think out other stuff So what I was 40% of my brain is just like swimming and guilt that I started the interview by saying that I'm not I'm not recording. I'm sorry. I know I thought you would think it was funny.

Well, I'm so I'm so insecure theory Listen, we're like yeah fuck that guy. Thank you. Oh my god. No, I hope I'm owning that the whole thing was in my head But why wouldn't I like you other than be jealous if you want to hear the story?

I made up in my head. Yeah is like yeah I had this opportunity on that show that no one else got yeah Also the show like when it came out in was huge that was so novel that it was a big show cable television Right, so I got all these opportunities that I was pretty certain wouldn't come everyone else's way that followed not based on talent Just based on yeah It was a headline that punk was a big thing the timber like thing was a big thing And you they weren't gonna let people have that much control over the show going forward So my thought was if you were on that show and then you didn't get to star in a Paramount movie three months later I'd not like me either that was why it seemed very rational that maybe you were like fuck that dude Why do you get to go be in a movie? Yeah one season a punk and I didn't it but that's exactly what it was Yeah, but that doesn't mean I don't think he's good. Okay.

We're a good person right right right right. Yeah, okay No, I was very much fuck that guy. Yeah, okay, but not in a good way Yeah, and a good and respect way and also like hating on you in that way like fuck that guy in my head like it was my way of being Your peer well, I've talked about this on here a ton of times Which is like I was obsessed with Vince Vaughn and so the way I handled that was I told rumors about him all the time I heard it's a bit about Vince Vaughn you were gonna hear it from me So I was gonna pass on this tidbit and I think you I was just exercising this like he's so great I don't think I can be as good as him yet. I want to be him So maybe I'm gonna tell this rumor about him He's not so good on this level.

Oh, it's so gross I sabotage Vince Vaughn. Well, he's a very serious. Okay. That was how I handled my I love was in love with him.

You were young I was like too old to be doing that though. It's a complicated business, but let me ask you So you're starring in a paramount movie without a paddle. Yeah, I remember reading that in variety Okay, so you're starring in that movie and you hear that the guy on season two like hates you Yes, or thinks of you as his rival. Yeah, what would you have thought?

Thank you for putting it that way because if it was a dude just like me. I wouldn't have cared That's it. Yes, and I knew that yes, but and it elevated me to be like Dax's because you're a successful smart writer and also Recognized as a successful smart writer by people I admire I was probably jealous of that I never think that people are jealous of me. Do you ever think people are jealous of me?

Never? I know that's a weird thing and when my friends are like they're probably just jealous. I'm like, that's not it No, it's not exactly that's not it's fucking jealous because you're obsessed with your own shortcomings mostly all I think about but yes You're so right had it just been like a nondescript person that wasn't threatening to me in any way I probably would have not thought about it and thought it was probably endearing Yes, that's what I would think but then I became somewhat successful now now you are like oh that guy Okay, so listen Okay, so this is another really fascinating thing because this is a little thing that happened between Husson and I which is huston was in an interview for GQ and he made this point that they give white shalabs their own Shows and then I was one of the people he gave the example of me the white shalabs that get their own show And he said that I was up six or something I wasn't very attractive so we ended up talking and I said to him I don't mind that you don't think I'm good looking I don't either I think you are I was just thinking actually and that was part of my jealousy too Well, I don't think I'm good. Thank you.

Anyways, I said no, I don't mean that you don't you think I'm on a track If yeah join the club I'm really bothered that you think I'm only working because I'm white that hurts my feelings because I've written everything I've been and I have worked myself and it would really hurt my feelings to think you think I just was given this and he's like Dude, I don't think that I recognize that blah blah blah we made peace it was wonderful after the fact it occurred to me He probably just thought he was punching up But I don't think of myself as someone that you're punching up to right? I don't I think I'm the fucking keep going at the learning disabled room and hustle's like oh look at the fucking dumb You know the big dumb guy and then once it occurred to me like is it possible that he just threw out an example that was so punching up He wouldn't even worry about how I would feel yeah I heard that and I think that's what it was but I don't think us and thinks he's punching up when he looks at me So it's very hard to take that in the spirit that it really is yeah I was obviously punching up, but I don't think that's how that's how he's here so I know yeah I really like you as a thing Don't over-consecute it's okay, I can hear a sweetness in your voice. I've never heard before It's here I'm very vulnerable here You are and I thought you were like smug and smart and better writer than me and you were telling people like yeah So much of that is our basic ality. Yeah, there's so much we cannot control based on our physical appearance Some people look warm some people look serious has nothing to do with their personalities Yeah, I'm ashamed though I am embarrassed that I wouldn't have thought of it that way mean then he actually like looked up to me Not that he just thought I was a piece of shit, which is what I thought yeah, okay, but listen Yeah, this is the point of the show this happens every time okay.

Yeah, that's why I said this is the first time It's been like talked about necessarily it's usually off mic yeah normally before the person comes in next like I just don't know About this first I don't know like this person or I don't like this person He doesn't even say it to start. Yeah, well, I'm glad I'm glad I mean they turn it to someone But they always leave and he's always like they were great 100% Yeah, I know this is what this is why this is the solution everything Isn't it what happens when we take the earphones off? No, it doesn't Yeah, yeah, it really triggered my fear of being dumb. Yeah, I think that's exactly what it was that like I'm honestly tearing up like that to me Good now you all mean apologize I want you to be embarrassed no like I must have been made to feel so dumb as a kid and now I epitomized other people like oh He thinks he's a fucking smart you know, but you're not doing that's not on you It's people putting that on either projecting it's you can't take that all the whole thing you want to do in this business Is what you put into the world what you make people feel yeah, I want to make people feel like oh that's smart like me You know, I want to speak to this be like when I saw things like mr.

Shower the Simpsons I was like that's smart to me. Yeah, they're talking to me Yeah, you know, I want to talk to people like that. Yeah, I was pretty convinced that kids in the hall was made solely for me I'm like I don't think anyone watches a show. Yeah, I think they're keeping it on there for me That's what bill haters up about the Dana Carvey show they have a great documentary about it.

Uh-huh Oh funny to fail. Yeah, I was like as soon as I saw the show I was like this getting canceled because this is exactly for me I might taste this on each. Yes. Yeah, okay We leave Harvard and we get to LA and how long before leaving Harvard to your unpumped about two years in that two years What are you busy doing?

I had a writing job? Okay, right on a sitcom raising dad. Yeah, I was very unhappy But I knew it was like an amazing opportunity, right? So I remember and I think of this still I would always remind myself all day how much money I was making because it was a lot of money Yeah, I make so much money and I realized later like when I was in the office I never once thought about the money and I was like that's a bad sign for you ever thinking about how much money you're making You're not happy.

That's a great point How much like just generalized anxiety over? Finances do you have out of 10 do you would you say zero and that I don't spend very much? But to me the luxury of being successful is not thinking about money. Yes, that is a luxury that almost nobody has I totally agree with you But then plenty people are rich and they're spending a lot in their word about it So yeah, or maybe if you come from anxiety you always stay I'll tell you the karma that did pay off for me So I had this moment as a stand up and I was like 24 right before punk or during punk or something where I suddenly I'd heat and people coming out to see me and I was like the young comic Yeah, and I've seen it happen other people since and that was my time Yeah, and the Fox network came to a showcase and I just had a great night Yeah, and I heard afterwards that Fox wanted to make a deal with me and Greg Daniels was with his wife Suzanne Daniels Who had a producing deal Fox?

So he just came with her yeah and saw me and thought oh he might be good for that office So I got a separate call from Greg Oh, and I knew who he was yeah I knew how good he was and so I met with Fox and they offered me more money and I was out of money I was like in debt to my dad like I'm fine I'm a lucky sure sure Person but you feel insecure and they offered me a ton of money and the office was like a much maligned Reboot of a British show, etc. But Greg's a guy Yeah, but Greg met with me and he drew me two circles of Venn diagram And he said this is comedy that everybody likes and this is the cool innovative comedy that people people like us like And then the part of the middle he said I'm only interested in this part and I was like I'll fall this guy anywhere Yeah, exactly what I want I want that cool innovative comedy that everybody likes yes Because it speaks to everybody right and so I'm so Seinfeld yeah and to me again That's that everybody is smart philosophy I have there is a version of that smart that everybody likes and TV is the epitome of it Seinfeld Simpsons These are the smartest shows they were the biggest hits it makes sense people like smart things people are smart Yeah, so I have this meeting I'm on fire from it and it's $9,000 is the guarantee and Fox is like six feet It's like yeah, yeah, not even comparable what an incredibly hard decision as your first decision first big decision And I was like well You don't know what's gonna happen with anything and the responsible thing is to take the Fox deal for sure I told my manager I'm taking the Fox deal and then he calls me at 7 a.m. He says I was up all night I couldn't sleep when we started working together We said we'd never do anything for the money the money would always follow And if if you take that deal it's for the money oh hold out and I took the office and it was the best gone for that Never happened yeah, yeah, so look I was incredibly lucky to be in the situation anyway But it was very stressful and I did bet on that and it did turn out well Yeah, now how quickly upon arriving at the office before you feel like you are in the flow there And you're not like the dude who just got out of college right away right away I was the cockiest right there and I was right I was on fire at the very beginning and wrote all my best scripts right away I really had a hot hand and it was later that I kind of got like I kind of looked down I was like whoa, you know, like I don't know and that's when my scripts got shakier Uh-huh was kind of middle seasons well one thing could yeah be that insatiable hunger you arrive with and then as you get feeling more Safe or it was just that it was the uncertainty at the beginning that made me not pull people I just I just had a vision then later. There's a lot of writers.

There's a lot of eyes on the show Yeah I'm kind of maybe playing it safer or splitting the difference and then I get more rattled when someone disagrees and yeah So yeah, my scripts got shakier. They got more rewritten in the middle seasons and then towards the end I think I found it again Uh-huh and Greg Daniels I've been told by Mike is like the guy you'd want to learn how to show run from yes I mean he's the real deal and he also he cared about teaching everybody so like Mindy and I were like 24 25 Yeah, and we're not only getting chance to write scripts were in the edi bay because he wants to teach you because he's gonna live one of these days Yeah, he's like teaching everybody how to edit how to be on set writers get to direct some of the writers and actors go back And for some of the actors ended up writing scripts so you kind of he wants you to learn which a lot of people don't yeah Yeah, they keep everything very separate. He liked it fluid doesn't they just screen confidence to you yeah Yeah, but another confident thing is that he would show his doubts He would say I'm I can't decide this or that he'd pull everybody and he'd show the people in other departments like the accountant Like what do you think of these two? Jim I'm pissed or not yeah, like you know whatever like that I've learned a lot from two is just Ask everybody because you know when you hear it that Venn diagram He I mean it's so crazy because that's exactly what the office was yes is mass appeal Mm-hmm.

I don't know anyone who doesn't love it. Yeah, and it's so different especially at that time Yeah, he drew his own bullseye and he hit it. It's so crazy What's interesting is we both have this experience to which is about the same time I go do idiocracy Which is only the second movie I was ever in by the way, why isn't that a show? Adiocracy yeah people refer to it all the time and it got I went with Pauline Racine to see that I was so excited and I called Movie phone remember yeah, here's how much the studio dumped that movie.

Yeah, it was blah blah blah 930 on titled Mike Judge movie it was called Judge movie on movie phone when it was out what the hell and people still refer to it constantly Way more than it was seen now. It's been seen well That's what I was gonna compare our experience which is like now I didn't have the front end wave, but isn't it wild that when did you start on that show 2004 five? 2005 that it was like this huge significant thing in your life and then now 16 years later It has this enormous wave on Netflix and where else where it's like it's bigger than it's ever been Mm-hmm that we're here with two of our early things. Yes I feel like we're like musicians who wrote a hit song and seven reason we get to play it for a long time Which I'm grateful for either are huge fans now of the office that literally were one when it was out originally or something Yeah, and what part of the process did you like the most one of my biggest regrets was not enjoying any of it as much Yeah, I should have now that I look back Yeah, and people say wasn't that credit like you're never gonna get that again Steve Corral in the room John Jenna rain like those writers Like it'll never happen again, or maybe something special happen in a different way But at the time I was just so insecure nervous how long is this gonna last?

Am I gonna get any lines in the next episode is my script gonna get rewritten? Am I gonna get fired what happens when this show is canceled? Am I making the most of this moment? I was so competitive and and career obsessed and self-obsessed and I'm like scratching myself No, but that um, you know that I didn't just Relax so not marrying my school girlfriend Just relax and just let myself be one with the office and I was still able to do some good work and enjoy some good times But not nearly as much have you heard Seinfeld on Stern?

No, that sounds great. It's incredible. It always is I think he's gonna have three or four times, but he's same. I he's like, you know, I just wish I could have enjoyed Seinfeld So I guess it's it's a weird paradox words like that's a very common regret I feel like I thought that if I could live my whole life over Knowing it all turned out okay, whatever that means.

Yeah, I would enjoy every second. I'd be like, oh here I am on that eighth grade bus ride that lasted too long Yeah, just like as long as you know, it's okay. Yeah, we got there even you could enjoy everything But you never know that's what I think the staldja is it's memory minus anxiety Mmm, remember that is what you forget is wondering is the office getting canceled? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah other than that It was great and if you just trust it will work out how it's supposed to work out I think you could enjoy everything what was even the the case you were building in your head with how it would be canceled considering It was like they're big a show.

Oh, it wasn't they're big show for a while the first season was very low rated Okay, and I would look on it's funny. I remember looking on the IMDB message board for the office constantly when it was a highlight I would be like this show is gonna be the biggest failure. I can't believe they're adding a laugh track I'm like, oh no, and then wait, you're on the show. You know, there's no right these guys don't know anything But I would listen to it like oh no, I made the wrong call you know Like you just listen to everybody But yeah season one was very low rated and season two was better rated Yeah, and then but like I literally played the temp like I'm the easiest possible guy to fire sure sure sure And what's wild is I had a meeting with Greg right in the last season of the show I went there And y'all wrote where you shot right?

Yeah, yeah, that was very rare there all day. Yeah, yeah actual dundra mifflin Yes, it would be weird to be a writer on the show and then also an actor It's like some days you're gonna take the right and go to hair and makeup Instead of going to the writers room or wherever yeah, but it's funny because I did have some attachment to it as a place I would be like added under mifflin desk like doing my work or drink coffee I was in the suit. I did work there for real in a way at all blurred Yeah, and I knew that was special now I read this really funny thing you said once that was basically like the giveaway that this whole thing has been a dream Is the simple fact that you happen to also be on a show with a dude you went to high school with yeah And you guys even wrote something together at one point Yeah, so I wrote the senior show which was like the big fun show that everyone does not just the theater kids Like a big raucous new in south tradition. I'm talking about John Krasinski really quick.

Just so you know you guys went to the same High school what that's crazy class everything. That's the same everything same little league team Yeah, the Orioles. Yeah, what would you rate your friendship at that time out of 10 like a six? Like that's weirder that we weren't lifelong friends.

We were lifelong friendly acquaintances. Yeah, I usually happen. No, yeah But you guys were cool and you totally you have a part in then casting it I mean, it's funny It was exactly the same as my life has gone ever since which was John was like the cool kid I was the writer I wrote a lead part for John and gave myself a little part Yeah, it was amazing and I was good enough and yeah, wow, that's great. Yeah, I woke up and it was all dream I'd be like, yeah, why the hell was John Krasinski like yeah, the algorithm is bad Yeah simulations like they got exactly yeah, I really didn't shuffle the uno deck Yeah, wild cards in a row was there any aspect that was like I don't know that this is the case for me as much But I think for a lot of actors they move out of their small town and they come here and then they kind of adopt a new persona It's a great chance to kind of reinvent yourself when you get here.

I should have done that But maybe you and John were both pretty authentic to who you had been in high school. I can't say yeah Was there any moment you were like what you're like? There's a movie star version of you or yeah Well, I do remember I ran into my blockbuster video which dates it like right after and I'm like I'm doing theater and improv and I was like oh god. I'm the real deal I'm doing this all through high school.

Yes, okay And then I was un-punked and then I saw him at the audition and I was gonna be Ryan I'd already been hired as Ryan and this was the audition for Jim and I was like of course like of course it was jealous But also excited like this guy looks just like Jim Yeah, and he's totally gonna get it and here we go now I won't be the most famous office star at my high school union But like he's the right But the show is gonna be good. You know what I mean? Yeah, that's crazy. Was he cool in high school?

Yeah, he's been spawning gone to my high school I would just kill myself a while ago. I think right on top of everything else you couldn't even be the shining star of your Highs, you know diet I mean, I do think that that's a cosmic joke on me. That is it really is I forget I'm gonna make John Krasinski Even more famous for the exact same thing obviously if I was directing the scene it'd be like you were right first people really thrilled It's going good and then fucking Krasinski rolls in he rolls in Yeah, I was like like rocket ship stay tuned for armchair expert If you dare Can we talk about me for one second because we're both obsessed with her we've been doing the show for almost four years We've probably set out loud on the show over 65 times I'll badly we would like to know I was like I think we'll probably talk about Mindy But we probably shouldn't because I don't want to trigger BJ because if I was in his position and then we were doing the interview and by the end someone was like, you know We love DAX I'd be like I mean to well I guess my interest here is simply we're kind of obsessed with her and you guys are best friends and you dated and stuff So you clearly see you get it. Yeah, I get it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, you're not wrong Yes, and then I also think we're in a unique situation where it's like you met Mindy and you become better friends with me Then I will kill myself fucking DAX no no no no but I met Monica before she was Monica Padman Which is there's very thrilling I think yeah, and to see How someone acts in the wake of that is really interesting and from my point of view Monica's like perfect at it She's not doing what I did which is like read about myself non-stop. Yeah, Google search myself I mean took me three years ago. It's you too See how you see how much further ahead of me you were I think four years older Right, so I knew your age But at this day, okay, he's done that but that means I have four years to do this and you know, it's so fucking similar I would like I'd be like at one time I knew exactly how old Vince one was in swingers I'm like well that ship sailed and I'm gonna be him that in I'll look at him Yeah, and then you find someone else and I'm having a really hard time comprehending that that was that's your truth But I am accepting it but the notion that you would have been clocking like okay Oh, I can still remember your picture on the punk website. Oh my god You're looking off to the side fucking cool spiky blonde hair like this little Jewish comedy writer Yeah, I have a really hard time I'm seeing that but we all this someone looks at me like that absolutely absolutely I couldn't imagine that It's probably best that you can't imagine it or that I know it would be so good if we could I think if you do I'm like, oh my god, that's what I did drug so much as I'm on them I do feel like someone who is wonderful and attractive and yes in poor drawn to and the future so optimistic There'll be no financial issues and but when do you let it go where like I had that with her?

I mean like I'm just like following her and like oh my god She's doing this and she's so brilliant and I want to be that and I want to do this But then at some point I'm like well I'm just not her like you just have to you have to go into some acceptance mode and it's good I think and you can't really be you until you let go of not being someone else well to me She's what she is to you. She's so extraordinarily successful amazing But all the time I mean if if and when she comes on I'm sure she'll tell you something But she is always thinking oh no everything's a mess everything's ruined. I'll never work again Like just this is not I've seen it for years Yeah, you know all successful people think like that exactly and so is it is it a waste of time to even wish we weren't that way And just or rather just go like yeah That's how we are and that and then the result of it is this great thing And I just got to take that lump with what comes out of it And I have a fancy where I would work out of the love of being creative Yes, that sounds so wonderful And I wish I could achieve that and I certainly have inched towards it But at the very beginning wasn't it out of the beginning of anything I was at the groundlings Yeah, nothing was gonna happen like there's no paycheck You can't get promoted those shows and writing for my classmates was probably the high watermark of my enjoyment of this long experience Which is I was doing it for no reason other than to make my classmates laugh hopefully and to enjoy being that making me laugh There was no goal. I mean there was the ultimate goal.

Yes, I'm like getting on saying like but no illusions of like Sunday night If it shows great, I'm gonna blink that didn't happen right. It's just Sunday the shows over and that's that right whereas your show airs And then the next you're like what did it do right and if it did this number it means this and I start plugging it into all these Different models to see where I'm gonna end up in five years Yes, and that's exhausting and not and draining and that's what I was saying about being on the office was that I was there I was there and Steve Curl once said earlier We're gonna be remembered for the rest of our lives what we do here on the show and I was like well That's nice thing to say but you're Steve Curl I'm sure but as big as his career is the office did become the biggest thing that we've done Yeah, and I wish that I was like what you're saying I was thinking okay, but what's next? What are they gonna think of me? Yeah, what am I gonna do?

This is gonna be launching pad to what where's literally when I was on punked someone said to me and other actors like I think this is a really good You know launching pad and I was like in my mind. I'm like we're here. I'm on punk. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah Most exciting yeah other than chasing you I was in the moment. Yeah, you know it was fine I didn't I thought this is this is it.

Yeah, I just wherever you are. This is it. Let's talk about you being an Inglorious Baster It's me was absolutely oh my god. Okay.

I just had a fucking flash of being jealous of you Just now remember that yes, I'm watching Inglorious Baster's and I think they're on a dolly and they're going across our basket You know the guys in pit screw and there's that guy who you think doesn't like you Yeah, okay. Yeah, I had a real blast of jealousy. Okay. Okay.

Good doesn't make me happy. Okay, but it makes me happy for the interview How do you get to an audition? How do you or you cast you how did you know? I was just I was called into an audition.

I went there. There's my hero like in the flesh I read for him for him. I read for him. He read with me.

Oh my god. He laughed Oh my god, it was all I thought about until I got the part all I thought about till I filmed it. Oh all I thought about It's like you know, yeah, it was everything you wanted it to be yeah, were you present for that? I was very present.

I was so nervous. I wish I'd relaxed more but I was present as fuck yeah And I knew that it would never be like this again because it's also it's Brad Pitt. He's wearing a white tuxedo You're in Europe. It's like insane and also he's the only person I think that loves the glamour the religion of movies It's a general or a pimp.

Yes, everything else. I've been on or even heard of it's a job. There's not magic to it It might be art. It might be amazing But there's not the sense that you are in a magical universe and it is with him Mmm sees it that way and you see it that way and so it's its own world But I was so intimidated I remember I knew he liked cigars and I bought a box of cigars on Thanksgiving when Thanksgiving and Berlin at Sally Mickey's house that late great.

I don't know. Yeah, yeah, I bought a box of cigars And then I gave them to my friend Omar in the movie and I was too shy to join them to smoke cigars I was so into I'd box cigars and I heard like hey Quentin's breaking out the cigars and I was so no I don't know what came over me I was so nervous that I didn't go and I'm sure he thought I was a dick from it You know what I mean, but like I was like I can't I can't cross that line I had bought cigars Oh man And I couldn't even but isn't it so real I've never told a story. Yeah, and so and that happens to me a lot of people I'm so excited about them and I can't show it I just like shut down and then they're like who's that dick in the corner I'm just like avoiding me. Yeah, he probably thinks he's smarter than me I'm avoiding him cuz I'm like I just froze up.

Oh man. I mean obviously he likes you. He wouldn't have cast you at the time He cast me. I don't know I don't know that happens a lot with me with people I admire mm-hmm Okay, so my two great obsessions in show business are rapid and Tarantino But you know the fact that you had the double fucking whammy It's like you're either listening to pit make a monologue or you're hearing Tarantino come in and talk about what just happened and Were you thinking like I must imprint every syllable?

I remember this literally because Quentin would drink with the crew out and I'd want to get drunk at Tarantino But I was also so worried I wouldn't remember everywhere he said I was like I was like I take notes or I asked him a question and he would go on and on and I was like no no No history is like it's like being erased because I've had a drink. Oh my god This is I can relate so much of this. Yeah, I had that with the with my judge I was just like you know if you want to get breakfast tomorrow, whatever I'm just you know I'm solo here and on so like I'll just go anywhere with you I'll come to your house lovely like I fell in with him I can't say what he felt about me, but like I was like yeah, I'll come over to your house I mean doesn't that's yeah, that's the opposite. Yeah, that's the big difference Yeah, and so you run two different risks of mine is I've most certainly been an unwelcome visitor places That's assured versus I don't go and they think maybe I don't like them So it's like damn if you do damn if you don't I guess I'd rather just be an unwanted guest I'd rather run that risk I love that.

Yeah, I think yeah whenever I'm like should I blur this out or not? I'm always glad I did Yeah, you know, you're answering yourself so you left before the office ended though I was gone though very last season Yeah, and what took you away from there a few things I was burnt out Mindy had left okay Correll had left okay, and they wanted a new showrunner I asked if I would want to do that and I couldn't imagine it and I also couldn't imagine like just hanging around without it Yeah, yeah, and I just couldn't do it anymore I didn't have a love I didn't yeah, and I remember I read brought me into his office And he was like what is it like how can I keep you here? And I think he thought it was a negotiation or right more money or I need more time off or whatever anymore lines Whatever and I said sometimes you just know when it's time yeah I got it yeah, and that was it because he had left us and I was the same reason I would imagine that you respected the show enough to not want to do a bad job at it Yeah, the very very end I didn't love and so where did you go immediately? I know you ended up writing on you were consulting on me show for yeah, I hung out there I would quite call it a breakdown, but I really I was really kind of a breakdown I was really burned out and unhappy I just went through this breakup that threw me and it was just time and I'd never really grown up I've been the show from a 25 like 31 or 32 and I had never had to do anything for myself and I think I'd become just sort of a Self I hadn't learned how to do anything What I'd be writing guessing that if you're spending all your time and focus on the show and the show turns out great Which it did yeah, but that can be enough to buoy you for the rest of your life Which is dangerous like oh, yeah, my house is a mess.

Oh, this is fucked up Oh, yeah, I didn't call back but the thing I'm focused on is working yeah It's dangerous and it's like oh it makes sense. I'll should take care of everything Yeah, it becomes very dangerous and I've played into it Yeah, but someone told me once if you want to know if someone's a celebrity asked them to fill out a form They should be pre-filled. I don't know my social security Yeah, exactly people and I was very glad at the beginning of the office I left my clothes on the floor of my trailer now. I that's what I did at home That's what I do in my bedroom.

I didn't think or mean anything by it And I'm so grateful the word or person came to me. Yeah, hey, just so you know It's disrespectful to leave your clothes on the floor put them on the couch right good for them Good for them told you nobody did that to me and I became like, I don't know a jerk without realizing in all kinds of departments I'm sure yeah cringe the more I learn about things and no one would do that They would probably behind my back say stuff, but no one's like hey, here's how it works Yeah, okay There's no parenting and Hollywood if you're an actor whatever so yeah I so I left that show and I hadn't learned much and I'd been in the room I had all these notebooks I kept of every idea that didn't fit the office and I started writing down It's like oh there's probably 20 movies in here 40 movies There was like a hundred opening lines Yeah, I started writing them down to see what I could turn them into and then I just kept writing them They became a book of short stories Yes, and then that was for sure 64 stories and it was very cathartic for me to just be alone in my house like finding out my own voice again Yeah, and then the most pure joyous creative thing I ever did I wrote this children's book I was with my best friend's kid and he kept handing me books to read him and truly like you're saying that creative spark It was pure creativity and the most like successful single thing I've ever done so that's the lesson This is a book without pictures the book with no pictures Yeah, and I was like what does he hope I read him like and I was like oh a book where I'm like I have to make fun of myself It's like a script so I wrote that book and then that was so joyous stuff This book that made kids laugh was an on the fucking best sellers children's for like a hundred and sixty weeks Yeah longer, you know for four years, so I wrote those books then it was time to go back But I felt lost I felt lost yeah, and I wanted to feel lost after all that But you feel like maybe you had skipped the part of your young adulthood where you would kind of learn who you were as a Exactly. Yeah, I did not know who I was I was part of this show Yeah, I did not know who I was in how many years at that last public five five years three I don't know time in LA three years ten years. I don't know So were you exploring like therapy or anything?

How were you trying to help yourself through it? Yeah, yeah, I think I didn't do enough Honestly, I was kind of a mess. Yeah, I felt very lost felt like I also I could go anywhere I had money right I could act I could write I could do TV I could do film and no one was telling me what to do Yeah, and so I kind of half did everything and then books, you know whatever Yeah, but I didn't have people in my life really I had Mindy as a very close friend But I didn't have a relationship I didn't have a group of friends LA was very isolating and and I didn't have a path and again like the actor thing people are like Whatever you want and so I didn't really know what to do. I was very sad well I imagine too like you're you're also at that age where it's like okay take talk I don't know about you but for me I was always like okay 32 man It is time to find someone to have a kid with you're gonna like this a big priority of mine And I've not done the work that would lead up to that So was that part of the panic at all like yeah, but then instead of getting somewhere I would just be like I gotta have a drink.

I gotta take a break I gotta distract myself with like a hookup or something This is my other vice-gitz marry-all friend enjoy whatever you're doing in the moment And yeah, I get your life together do the work and I didn't do the work and I paid for it Yeah with kind of loneliness and being a jerk Can I suggest something one thing I say on here a lot is that what saved my life ultimately was getting famous In that I was Suicidal as an alcoholic with success And so the gift of that was I could no longer say I was upset because I wasn't successful for 10 years I was unsuccessful out here And so I could say the root of all my problems were that was that that I didn't have money that I know was recognizing that I was Telling to them when you still had a moment I got all the shit and I'm like oh I'm more miserable with all the shit Then I was with none of the shit what a fucking gift because had that not happened I would have died thinking oh I'd be complete inside if I were successful I would have told myself that life forever and kept drinking I'm pretty sure yeah So I think it really bizarre way like getting everything I wanted and still being miserable and lonely and suicidal was like What a fucking gift and I would imagine for you similarly You're in the wake of having been on the most successful show of the last day you're financially fine Yeah, and you're fucking miserable right it helps to be able to recognize that when you've checked Yes, two big boxes. Yes supposed to help you feel good Yeah, you recognize oh something else is going on something else is going on lack of connection and ego that prevents you from doing that And the ability to do anything makes you do nothing sometimes and what pattern do you think you were most likely to fall in And friendships and relationships what pattern yeah like so for me I come on like a freight train I want you to like me I want you to fall in love with me fall in love with me I start thinking you probably aren't that good of a person if you love me I start getting unattracted to you because why would you like me and then I'm not this glowing flashlight in your face anymore because That's the pattern I and I would find myself in quite often. I once read about Putin He said he'll never forgive someone for loving him Yeah, I feel that sometimes I feel that I can attract Such loyalty and love from some people around me and I'm getting emotional again I can do that and then it makes me probably the same self-loathing triggers, but it makes me not trust them anymore We're not respecting them or think they're wrong. I remember you know I was at such a low point at one point a few years ago in this whole mess period and my little brother who's 12 years under Lev and Lev looked up to me so much he thought I was the best he's such a hype man He's such a happy puppy and I couldn't talk to him anymore because I was so down on myself And then I didn't return his calls I just couldn't face it and I just resented that he admired me and thought I was great because you knew the truth Yeah I knew the truth and my mom had to call me and say hey like Lev is really hurt and confused Yeah, you know I know it was because he loved me so much.

Yeah, and I couldn't accept it Yeah, I couldn't expect and talk to him, but I was just like he's so fucking wrong It's like yeah, and so you can turn on people for loving you when you felt so that is the most sort of I get to quote Putin You're not even supposed to call her full example I can think of yeah of a pattern yeah, and how would that work itself out with female relationships similarly? Yeah? Yeah, yeah I think so Monica can I tell you're sorry sure she liked a teacher? Well, yeah, well not gonna say name or anything and I'm not gonna say where but she had a teacher she liked and then at some point you It was some no there was just some reciprocation it was we didn't No, you have said that so many times I corrected you so many times I really am ahead what Adrian is a pretty good girl.

No, no this was a UCB. Oh, so I was 25. Okay, well that's better I thought you're saying well She also was super in love with all of her teachers as a child because that's my pattern okay liking people who aren't available to me Okay, so then this teacher was in the mix But then he kind of became a little bit more available and then I was like you like me more he shouldn't like me if he likes me There's something wrong with him, so I no longer like him. I've miss assessed him Yes, you said you had a girlfriend who was a multi-woman he was obsessed with her growing up and then he started dating her He was like oh no, I got the purse and be like if I started dating Matt I don't know I think that would have worked out.

Yeah, I'm sure that would be good together. Yeah, very natural Oh, man. Oh, he does look very teacher like to you though. He looks like he's a in this picture.

He encouraging smile Yeah, class made of yours so smart. I mean stretch it Anyway, yeah, and once he got that that again was supposed to cure the thing I was supposed to look in the mirror and go like you handsome fucking awesome dude and instead I'm like you tricked her she's gonna find out your I hadn't been offered an acting job in a year I was like but she's gonna find out shortly my career is over and it's an embarrassment to her to be with me Right people are curious why the fuck is she with him all the things I thought it would it would heal it made worse Mm-hmm. Whatever insecurities. I had just got amplified.

So that's part of your realizing. Oh, this doesn't cure it. Yeah Yeah, like I'm gonna have to give myself some self-esteem No one else is gonna be able to give it to me. Mm-hmm.

God knows I've tried that goes with dudes too I gotta tell you I mean sure we have the same experience is like I go on punting Kutchers like you want to go to a basketball game I'm like what the fuck ish and coach who wants to yeah, and I'm like walking through staples with him And I'm thinking do I stick out like a turnt a punch ball or do I look like we should be together? I mean these are the thoughts I'm having and then we step up to get he's gonna get a beer now I've got to tell him I don't drink cuz I'm an alcoholic now panicked It's like me not a first date with a girl right and again. I need him to validate me. Yeah.

Well Ashton has that a special Oh, man, you know, he's in my movie that I just shot. Oh, yeah, yeah, he's incredible. I did not know that yeah Yeah, he's in my movie and he's amazing what was called vengeance. It's about I play a podcast her Name max ple plepper yeah, he goes to West Texas and kind of gets caught up in the store He was gonna be kind of judgmental about this small town and then he gets kind of caught up in it And Ashton is this charismatic guy looms large in town that my character misjudges But oh my god Just wonderful and I was like this guy is so he's such a cinematic presence and I told my DP how would Tarantino shoot Ashton Oh, he said I'd give him this actually Tommy Maddox up shot I'm talking for a friend who couldn't do the movie and he's like you give him the Christoff man I was like what do you mean?

He's like Christoff Walt walks into English bastards. He's live from the front. He's live from the slats Camera turns around he's the same way he's got a glow you guys never seen this guy before and he's the biggest star you ever seen Oh, yeah, with Ashton Kutcher because we know everybody loves him Sure, but this sort of this magic and mystique I really wanted to capture But it was incredible like here. I'm another side and I got to direct Ashton what could be more fun It was intimidating and exciting But did you have the moment where you're looking at the monitor and Ashton saying things you've written and you've decided how they're gonna Like that and you're watching it and then you get sucked into your own movie.

Yes That's the rarest nicest feeling in the world right someone's great Yeah, right the Cooper's in the second movie I made and I was watching behind the monitor in the speech ended and there's like this long long beat and then you kind of look at camera like You're gonna call cut Wow literally was What is a movie? This is a movie. This is a movie. Yeah, this is a real movie.

That's cool. Oh, what a feeling yeah generally I'm just jealous of everyone shit, but when they're in your thing and they're making your thing better Yeah, it cuts through the jealousy and you're just grateful. Yes. Oh, we gotta put each other up.

Yeah, buddy comedy. Yes. Yes That's this is wonderful. We'd be very good.

We're great mismatch. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Oh my god We've been still earned Vince Vaughn. Oh fuck those guys Speaking of buddy comedy god this must have been when I first started babysitting when I first started babysitting for them We watched something together and you were like, oh my god.

I have a great idea you and Mindy should do coming to America Yeah, and new coming to America. That's good and you'd be the slutty sister. Yeah, you had a whole plan Yeah, and then the Kristin of course is God bless her She like immediately got in touch with me and he was like can I meet with you and like they were on the same live? I'm yeah, she like brought her and gift basket She's a baller.

Yeah, I was like so, you know hey and we have this idea and she's like oh cool Like I think she like took it in and then yeah, she never thinks anyone serious I mean that's her own imposter syndrome. Mm-hmm. She probably thought like yeah, right? Why would everyone do that with me and you're like hello.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah like Beyonce center flowers The other and she's like you know whatever she's like yeah, I don't get it. Yeah, you know cuz you're Mindy Kaleon. Yeah It's so universal it's so universal it's sad but reassuring you've certainly gotten a call or an email from somebody who you're like How the hell did they get mine? Yes, right?

Yeah, okay, so Kristen is at the status where she's that person like somehow she I can't get Mindy's email. I don't know how to get me I don't know how to contact a Mindy, but Kristen is in that little strata in operational where she somehow can contact anyone Do you have any crazy money like you answer and you're like what how did you? Email Ben stiller all he didn't reach out to me, but I was interested in it I sent him a script for something on a lark and then he just emailed me. Uh-huh was like let's talk Oh my god, and then he didn't end up doing it, but that was I just talked him on the phone and oh yeah Just cuz you just brought him up.

Yeah. Yeah exciting Yeah, so can I ask you in this five-year period where you'd written the children's book and written the 64 short stories And you're going to therapy are you making any kind of like structural changes to your life? Are you like enacting you behaviors? Are you exercising are you like what kind of things are you doing to get that life in order to define you?

I'm trying everything, but not in a structured way. Uh-huh. I'm working out. I'm meditating TM Yeah, I did TM pretty devotedly.

Yeah for a while right it works to right it worked and then I stopped working out You worked and I stopped and then I every time you do it I should do this all the time, but no I haven't cracked it yet I haven't given myself or had imposed on me the discipline Yeah, that would I think that I'm hoping to now because you're an overachiever You have to approach I'd imagine you guys are like kind of similar We're reading these things where it's like how to get through to Monica's like put it on her calendar was her assign Yeah, my Virgo. What sign are you? We don't believe we don't believe in them either, but we're newly interested But if we did, yeah, yeah, but they're surprisingly accurate Leo, okay It would be interesting to see you go after friendship love all those things as if it were a I know a script that you had to That is maybe life-changing advice Yeah, it's a script. I'm like alright.

I'm two weeks to outline four weeks first draft It sucks, but I'm just gonna do this yeah sucks I'm gonna do it and I don't do that friendship love it's really it happens what it happens or I'll do a little this little That or yeah, absolutely and then I'm nowhere. Yeah, you need to be like I go on one day to week I know people have done that yeah, but it's so different because you have so much control over a creative thing and you have no It's so vulnerable to be going on a date every week or putting a lot of effort into that realm because it's scary They might like you back or they you know whatever I just also there's no external structure to it There's no like when I'm looking for a director for my show or a showrunner or whatever like you're nervous You meet a lot of people some don't work out some you're not sure about but you have to choose one yeah You do yeah, and you live with it and you live with it and it's probably good maybe you regret whatever but you did it And there's no clock yeah love that way that's true, you know But even if you do then you know you can get out of your own deadline I mean yeah, that's why we have our friend Jess and I we have this other show called Monica and Jess love boys And it's basically that it was that it was like okay We have goals every week that we have to meet for this program and each other changes was fun So just was like you have to sex to someone this week That's amazing she got done yeah, yeah, the first season came out and then we're gonna do a second season as well But yeah, it really put it in those terms exactly It became homework and I'm a straight student I'm gonna have it heard from you in 10 years But I just want to look him up so many times I'm trying to locate him I can't do you think you have an idea of who you would love to be with like you have a type I have a type and every time I've actually fallen in love it's been completely different from my type isn't it something so I think that you need to be To really fall in love yeah, you need to be completely Overwhelmed by what makes someone else them yeah I think I too like in between Brie who was with for nine years in Kristen I actually had to wear with all this a like hey, how about dates on that's not like you know It's gonna it's a thing in a which is contrary action use do basically the opposite of whatever you want to do and just see what happens for a while And inevitably you're not in any of the patterns used to be because you're not choosing the same you're almost Yeah, using an opposition to whatever you'd want to do yeah No, it sounds very appealing to me. I don't have an exact addiction although I have very compulsive patterns Yeah, yeah, the people that have benefited from it that is exactly the structure that sounds to me I don't know you do I don't know are you guys gonna go on a day you can apply for season two of my okay great Would you be open to being on a reality? In order to date my opinion is complicated Yeah, we put out applications for people to apply you have to live in complicated coming to America remake Yeah, well look it's been like ten years.

I don't think she's I don't think she's interested also they did a remake I know that's true since then there has now been a remake of it. That's right. You know that well It's a sequel a sequel. Yeah, that's not fair to call the remake is sequel.

Yeah, that was my mom's favorite movie coming to America It's a incredible movie, but now don't you think like it's scary to do that movie like we get whatever we get canceled I don't know like it's how do you toe the line? I don't know well, okay Let's talk about the premise which we haven't talked much about because this is ding ding ding You're doing that you're taking all these kind of hot button divisive topics and you're kind of figuring out a backdoor into talking about them Was that fun like let's just let's just do it like the first episode of the series is about Black guy who's being accused of assaulting police officers and then so that's every day in the news, right? So you take that thing that we're all very well aware of and then you add in that the person's gonna get exonerated because there's actually footage that he Didn't attack the cops but the footages during a fucking scene and out the window You can just see in the corner right it's on a white guy's sex tape like a guy who's like the most super BLM Instagram poster, but in the back of a sex tape is this thing? Oh my god, amazing.

Oh, that's great. Now like his his expressed support of this movement is put up directly against his fear and vanity of being in a courtroom Watching himself, right embarrassingly. I love stuff like that I love comedy that is actually about what is on people's minds and I feel like a lot of it is either escapist or like preachy Yes, yes, yes, I did want to experiment with doing something that was just stories. Yeah, did it make the network nervous?

Yep, it did. Yeah, yes, it did but I think that as long as you get past that I don't think real people are very sensitive at all. Everyone's worried on behalf of everybody You know like what you just said well I get canceled We get canceled. I don't know that if anyone cancels you it's on behalf of someone that they think would want to right?

Not that sensitive people get the joke They'll talk about anything if they're offended they'll say I'm offended yeah, you know And that's not the end of the world either But it's the people in between that are so scared, you know about what gets to it But I've never had any trouble with an audience directly occasionally So I didn't like that joke. I was offended. Okay. Well now I feel terrible because I thought what I wanted to do But when someone in the middle tells you this won't fly right that's when I'm skeptical Well, we talk about race quite a bit on the show and certainly the vast majority like 99% of any negative comments I've ever received have been from white people yeah, and then those are tricky for me because it's very easy for me to write that off I'm like if a black dude tells me that yeah, I'm gonna rethink this but if you tell me I'm not gonna rethink it right I don't really trust your right that's more condescending to me.

Yes On behalf of this isn't right. Yes. Now that said it's fucking terrifying to think not only of the consequences You sure but it's terrifying to me to think of hurting someone's feelings out of my own fucking ignorance Yeah, and selfishness of I think this is funny. Yeah, and so yeah, I'm scared of that But I'm also skeptical of the people who tell me that I'd rather actually run it by people that I trust There's also a little voice in my head that's a little bit like okay, so you and I recognize we wouldn't enjoy being on a roast So guess what we don't go on a roast right like there seems to be zero Awareness of what someone has an appetite for and they just find themselves in all these situations where they're being offended all the time There's a little bit of that lack some responsibility I think like someone went to a friend's improv show and in their improv set someone was pregnant and then they delivered on stage and then afterwards People came up to how dare you do that Katie had a miscarriage last month and she's been dealing with it's like I can't account for 2,000 people in an audience that someone might have had a miscarriage if you had a miscarriage Maybe a live comedy shows not for you yet or maybe someone else was like oh my god.

I can laugh about this. Yes. That's another great point So it is such a complicated situation and I don't know that comedies ever worked under this new kind of scrutiny Well, I have a galaxy brain approach to it which is that censorship has always existed and Whether it's Soviets or the social moors of today on Twitter and people have always found a way to get their thing across And that's just part of the challenge and maybe pure freedom isn't for us isn't for writers I mean that's all you read between the lines Shakespeare is really criticizing the monarchy Oh, whatever their criticism They can't let it they'll go to the Gulag if they admit that this isn't just a parallel or whatever or network TV on the office It was on NBC you can't swear. Okay, you can't say certain things, but you express yourself anyway Yeah, so even though it's always the enemy and that it's always the obstacle It's also always there There's always some gatekeeper that won't let you say exactly what you want to say and part of the art is finding a way to do it That's a really really great point for the office.

It was 20 minutes 30 seconds every episode not 31 seconds Uh-huh not 24 minutes. It was to the second we had to cut it down and it sucked, but we did it Yeah, and okay, you know that was a box. It was interesting. I don't ever want that box again, right?

Yeah, no that box is good. Yeah, it was good for that show. It's crazy. Maybe the limits make us better.

Yeah So you have constructed this incredible Track record and you have a lot of options. Well, see this is now on a personal level I'm suffering from the same thing. I just said I can write a kid's book I can do this So what the fuck do I do yes, and who am I with and so then you find yourself afloat? So yeah, I do all the time the grass that is greener to me is like this person took an overall deal NBC They deliver four series like etc.

They know where they're going to work and look at all they accomplish So yeah, so I have this career that has all of this freedom and I love it and you don't want to give like who willingly gives up their freedom I guess and I guess sometimes you submit to a system of power etc. Yes, and that is what's hard to do It is I have this freedom creatively personally and then I find myself drift or uncertain Are you someone that is good at asking for help or mentorship or advice? There's a line I wrote for myself in the office Which is lead me when I'm in the mood to be led? Which is like that's my paradox, you know, I'm like lead me and I'm like go down here I'm like how about there instead yeah, yeah, so you don't reach out much to people or you do and I'm not that big a mess either But like you know, I have a very hard time asking for advice because I'd be acknowledging that I'd be acknowledging that I'd Ask for advice too much.

I ask everyone for advice, but then I don't I'm like cool I'll take it all under advisement, and then I'm not committed to any who in your life Do you admire and trust when they advise you on something? Mindy my brothers I dated someone who gave great advice and then after I'm like damn it, you know They like that. Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's one of the great things that christen answer my life is I come at this all I'll lay out a problem for like this guy did this and this guy did this I'm writing this email this guy told me fuck off and I'm gonna tell this person yeah It's like what if that person blank and how do you know they don't feel scared to and blah and then I'm like oh right Yeah, everyone's scared. Let's start there.

Yeah, I know And what are your hobbies that's the thing I don't know I just think all the time and I'm just thinking about my writing and and my life and myself and all of that is the same thing Right, so I'm just thinking all the time Yeah, and I'm reading but everything I read I'm like I'll cut I use this and everything I watch I'm like oh I should I cast that person you know so like I don't have an escape and I used to smoke weed and that was the one time when I would like Just watch fucking loony tunes because it was gorgeous funny. So that kind of getting stoned do you stop getting stopped? I guess when people say paranoid I was like well, I don't think anyone's coming to get me But I would be paranoid that I was making these horrible mistakes in my life And I guess that is paranoid I would get anxious and spiral and it went from like being 10% of the time to 20% to like 50% It's like it's not worth it. Yeah, it's not worth rolling the dice on that which is too bad That's a bummer.

Yeah, cuz I really did love it. Yeah, and it was very good for me I think for a lot of folks that have a real busy racket upstairs. It's very helpful. Yeah, but it's funny to say drugs Haha drugs was my hobby.

Yeah, you know, you know, you know, we're going in nature, okay, whatever, but do you camp and stuff? No, see that's why I look at you and your military pants your athletic build and I'm like, this is that's what I can't be You dirt bike and stuff, you know, I mean You have to take on all the stuff that makes me do this stuff. I would something yeah, you want to have the dad that you know You asked for advice, you know, I'd have kids. Yeah, well, you might have some kids Okay, you're right.

I'm still chasing you. Oh Well, we do this body pick together. I think it could be good. I honestly think we are a great combo.

I do too It's pretty opposite. What do you think? But what's funny is it's like it's opposite and not at all. That's the whole magic of a buddy It's like yeah, they're on a wavelength.

I'm a magical body switching company Why is that such genre body switching? I know it's so preposterous. It's super positive. It's just like yeah, we do a body switch I agree.

That's never happened. No, why because it's never happening. You always wonder what it would be like to be in somebody Yeah, I guess but it's a huge huge leap. So you go to the studio and you go So here's the thing is meet Mike.

He's a nerd meet John. He's a hillbilly They're gonna switch why can you imagine and you start thinking about crazy? They'll be but if you want to go like meet Mike his index finger can make anything in the world So he that's his power. He's got and then meet John.

He can always refer ever. That's the moving you like no Keep track in a body so they've got a call better device. They need to label you like Dave as Mike right right right This is really been stiller. Yes, my idea for a body switching company was the lowest aches body switching company I wanted to pitch it where I would play identical twins But one has a birthmark and so the ones getting ready in the morning He sees his brother's birthmark on his hip and he's like Like moment in everybody switching coming when he realizes he's his brother Uh-huh and it's just that mold that no one will see and even other identical twins ones a surgeon One's a pilot but each other has to go to work for one another in case someone sees that birthmark That's great.

Like the stupidest lowest stage and they're still panic the whole time and it doesn't occur to them They could just continue on I would get that okay. I'm your audience Yeah, oh my gosh, yeah, I don't think anyone else would get it No, I'm not You're totally speaking to me because I gotta be honest that really got motivated out of Ryan Reynolds and bait and doing one I'm like I don't know both guys are going to I know that's what I thought to that exactly I'm like I'm getting if I wake up as either of those guys. Yeah Yeah, yeah, I'm like I feel like I feel like that's cool too Yeah, this is the snarkiest guy I ever live and and then you're Ryan Reynolds and you're like a fucking him a beast Look at this. Yeah, no one's bombed.

Yeah, okay, so I was I feel like I was in the exact same position You found yourself in those five years. I had that same thing and I started going to therapy It's so weird. I've been trying to think of a way to bring this up to Monica and I'm just afraid to We're gonna do it now. We're gonna do it live real time.

It's historic Oh my god, every relationship's up for grabs in this interview like who knows where this will land Everyone walk out his friends. I saw this therapist and they got he said this to me said are you of service to anybody? I said what does that mean? I go to a soup kitchen or something and he said look I don't care what you do But I do know helping other people makes people feel good forget it You can do it selfishly.

I'm like, but I don't want to go to soup kitchens. What are you interested in? I'm like cars and he's like do you like all equipment like you like military equipment? I'm like, oh, I love military equipment.

He goes why don't you do a USO tour? But then you could do something you want and I've said this before I went totally selfishly I'm like I want to go to Afghanistan I want to see all this stuff and then lo and behold I was there and I'm eating real human beings who have fucking dedicated their lives to be in this miserable situation They're happy to see me and I can't believe I was thinking about them the whole thing I come home and for seven weeks. I was happy I was like, hey, I had perspective on what I'm not living in Be all these people were really grateful that we were there and I was like I'm so glad that that therapist recommended that and now what you have kids kids are just service Mm-hmm, and so you're so fucking distracted by dealing with all the shit that it does cut down on the time You can obsess about yourself. Yeah, and I just every time I have something that distracts me from that I feel happier So anyways, I was saying to Monica because you don't have any pets or children yet Then I wonder if you found something you love that you also could be of service if it would improve your life Are you offended by that observation?

I feel offended. Yeah, yeah I don't know for sure if I just haven't processed it. Yeah, it was something that was recommended to me that ended up feeling really good And you still do it. Oh, you have kids now So I have kids and then I also am in a so I have to talk to dudes all the time that I would probably pick not to I have to Engage in their problems this show I just don't in like listen to you and connect with you and really want to know things and while I'm doing that I can't think about what car I need which is what I'll think about all day and yeah Yeah, you're getting that from this as well.

Yeah, but you don't have a pet you don't have a kid No, no, thank you to a pet. Yeah, yeah, no pets. No, there was a dog sitting next to me on my airplane yesterday And I was not happy about that and then of course I spiraled and I was like what about this allergic? Why are they allowed to do this?

I love animals in the wild sure. Yeah, it's different. It's a totally different thing Yeah, we had a big big debrief about that because I agreed with Monica I'm kind of like I get it you have anxiety and you can't fly without this dog and I'm very sympathetic to that But what's also weird is I'm allergic to dogs. So if you fly with your dog I'm an asthma attack that whole flight so now I can't fly or rather Yeah, if there's a dog on the flight I would choose not to fly so I understand we're helping you but it also might take someone else out That's kind of interesting that that's how the policy Like all cabin could be allergic to the dog.

I don't know It's just it's just assuming like if you don't like animals you're bad person so you can't I know say that yeah My brother isn't a dog person either and he quickly says but I love babies I do love babies. Yeah, okay. That's a good cat. Well, I'm not gonna be the best one She's like I'm very grateful that it's making your anxiety lower that you have your dog with you But it's making mine super high because I'm afraid of dogs I just don't know what's gonna happen next to my feet Mm-hmm.

I hope he doesn't hear this the man. He was really nice and the dog was actually really good So by the end I was like it was fine, but I was anxious it was making me anxious But we did ultimately decide we're just one documentary away from thinking it's fine But we know I can see the documentary that would show me the individual case of someone who just paralyzed with anxiety and can't go See their mother and they find this beautiful little dog and it makes him so happy and feel so confident and then they get on the airplane in The documentary they give the documentary the thumbs up. It's a feature. I think this is an Owen Wilson movie This feels like a huge so I imagine seeing that movie and then going I don't care if I have an asthma attack What do I care?

Look at everyone's like this my anxiety doesn't matter. No He gave the thumbs up. He's gonna see his mom. He's got his child on his lap.

I gotta get over it So I do know I'm one documentary away from accepting it. I think I got our buddy comedy I think it's like midnight run. I think you're De Niro. I'm groaning.

Okay. I gotta get across the country Yeah, and you have your companion dog. Yeah. Yeah Deeply allergic to yeah, and yet I have to get you to New York from Louisiana.

Mm-hmm. I knew we'd get there Yeah, we got it. We got everything. Good job.

Okay. BJ the premise is on on Hulu. It's called FX on Hulu. Oh my god Okay, it's confusing.

It is I want to watch it. I watch it today. Love it great fucking cast Ben Platt We love by the way awesome butt cheeks. No one asked me to evaluate him.

Mm-hmm But we see his butt cheeks quite a bit. Yes in their phenomenon. That's why I cast him They're beautiful. Wow I can't wait for you to see him.

Okay Well BJ I can say this on record that for the rest of my life when I meet people if anyone brings up BJ Do you know BJ I interviewed him and I love him he's such a nice guy and I can tell what a sweet person He is and I think we wrestle with all the same we do securities. Yeah, and when you meet each other in heaven You'll be happy to see each other. I know I gotta get there first Oh, wow, what are the conflicts in heaven? Great question.

Yeah, there's no conflict. So there's no comedy in heaven. Yeah, they only serve like a dick till 11 We gotta get there in heaven fuck this place. I'm going hell.

It reminds me of one of my favorite jokes guy goes The hell he's being greeted by that one of the ambassadors for hell and he says welcome. It's Monday So tonight we have open bar Mondays open bar night. We have my ties we have Jack Coke anything you like do you like to drink That goes oh yeah, I really like to drink it. Oh my god.

You're gonna love it that Mondays is a Tuesday is because you know Night, so we got pike a poker. We got blackjack. We got everything. It's so fun.

You're good. You like the gamble Yeah, I kind of do like you're gonna love Tuesdays. Do you like a sex? No, you're gonna hate one It's more just the delivery of you're gonna hate I don't love the homophobic nature of the joke But I love you're gonna hate Wednesdays as a delivery.

I love a punchline like that that can be its own shorthand Yeah, you can say you're gonna hate Wednesdays if you know the joke for the rest of your life. Yeah, absolutely All right, well, be I'm so glad you came. I'm so glad I'm I for a long time and I feel really good about everything And then I really regret thinking I didn't like you because I thought you didn't like me. I enjoyed I was fueled by my playful Angry jealousy towards you.

Yeah, but it was admiration. That's a lesson for everybody. I love you. This was so fun This is great.

Yeah, I really wanted to thank you. I really wanted to thanks Rob the premise and the movie that coaches and what's the name of that vengeance? Vengeance. Yeah, I'm very looking forward to that.

I think I like that. Okay for real. Thanks so much for coming Thanks for giving us so much time. Yeah, and now my favorite part of the show the fact check that my soulmate Monica Padman He Jane Novak Wow an experience.

I've heard about five days felt bad afterwards. Yeah, I mean I thought it was a great episode me too. He was really wonderful and he's opposite of what I thought he was which was a fun real time discovery like I regret that I miss Red who he was and that I believe these stories I had been told I do and he said it on here like so much of it is physical There's like just this physical presence that people can't control It's just fascinating how your appearance makes it different a lot of people thought I was a dumbass for a decade because I played ten dumbasses in a row Yeah, and I'm not mad about like I can understand why you would think that I played Frito and then I'm Carl Loomis Yeah, I'm a bunch of dumbasses totally. I was very surprised when I met you who you are.

Oh really? Yeah, you primarily just knew me as Crosby punked Okay, yeah, yeah, so there's an example that I was associated with a show that is mean-spirited in some way. Oh, that's that's true Well, he right yeah, so initially, you know, I didn't like that association that people thought I was something like So that's not me you've been for eight years and I don't do pranks on people. I don't know anyone No, I don't think I thought you were like me or at all but I did think yeah, maybe it was just your characters in general I don't know I was just really surprised how smart you are right.

I think it's really really a common. Yeah, it's high now Now I'm dumber than no now people know well that listen to the show sure But there's your whole like you know you're on talk shows your your persona. I think has changed over time Don't you think it has changed? I don't you think parenthood was probably the turning point for you of like oh people like think I'm Yeah, charming and nice and or I don't know yeah Yeah, well, I felt like they didn't think I was all white trash idiot, which is mostly what I played yeah prior to them Yeah, um yeah, well, I will though I will credit I'll credit the freebie for being the turning point for me The freebie is the first thing I started playing myself in yeah, but not that many people saw that right at first Me you and the director yeah Katie myself and you yeah, I think some of the casting it's a good movie It was fun.

We went to Sundance and I had never done that and then we went to South by Southwest It was wonderful. I loved being like yeah, that was a pool I had never been invited to swim in and I had played such shit in fact mark and J2 plus yeah I had requested a meeting with them and for people done on mark and J2 plus they produced the freebie his wife Katie Mark's wife Katie directed it and was the star of it I had requested a meeting with them after seeing the puffy chair They took the meeting because they're nice guys. We went to cafe 101 we had a fucking blast yeah We started hanging out and everything they still were never gonna hire me then all of a sudden mark happened to see let's go to prison Where I played kind of serious and or something yeah, and then months later He just called and said hey can you do this thing yeah like in two days the other actor fell out oh wow I was like sure and then I ended up going also ding ding ding much in the morning show right now which markets in and Katie's in They they yeah, oh good. Yeah, yeah, it plays this girlfriend.

Oh wow. I guess it's just it's funny with actors specifically because you can easily just not know Well, what about that poor poor kid who played King Joffrey? Yeah, exactly with acting I heard yeah because people just thought he was an evil shit is that why yeah He couldn't stand how people saw him in real life because of course they know him They know him is the worst human ever live but then you what I would think is he would then try to do a role that countered that No, I'm gonna hire for that. Yeah, he's great a little shit And I'm great at playing a white trash.

Yeah, actually that's funny the only fact I have that I wrote down No, no is we talk a lot about pumped obviously yeah in the episode And I realize I don't know something which is surprising me like I know everything about you But why did you leave pumped because I was famous oh? They oh everyone. No. Yeah, so especially the demographic we were going after I don't think most Hoidy actors were watching punked, but we didn't punk Hoidy actors.

We did pop stars and athletes and who watch punk yet? Yeah, so you had to leave because yeah, you ruin the price in fact So we had filmed them all before they aired but they started airing and we still owed one and that's when I did this football Golf one I talked a bunch about in fact it came up in this episode that was the one I wouldn't cooperate And I was wearing a wig and I had a grown up mustache and dyed it and when I pulled my wig off like Jerome Betis knew immediately who I was so like they did know once I got out of the garb Yeah, but I was so happy to that I couldn't do another season because I was making like $1,800 an episode right and it took weeks to Everyone there was making much more money than I was I couldn't live on yeah And I was starting to get incredible opportunities like without a paddle that was probably five months after it I got yeah, that makes all that makes sense because I was thinking about it I was like wow like knowing you you leaving a job right seems especially your first one Uh-huh seems very off-brand, but that makes sense You weren't really making any money and Delegistically it stopped making sense and I had this huge fear that like everyone I was hoping to ever work with I was pissing off Totally but I mean also you had a job and you tried ten years again when and you finally got one and then I did I do of leaving it like that's yes, that's true But that makes more sense. Yeah, you're making a lot more money it might have been harder Oh, I would have been much harder But I think I told you I that same year in my ten years of auditioning for commercials I booked three yeah an MTV lawnmower commercial and then this ampm industrial for people who don't know industrials It's a buyout. There's really no money.

There's not they're not gonna air it on TV per se and there's no residuals And it was for no money was for ampm gas station And I said this is my lowest point ever professionally as an actor They've got like this whole interior of an ampm set up inside this big blank white space And I'm walking down the line and I'm doing this and doing that make a slurping and the director is yelling out You know do this all right now grab a slurping now. Okay, now make a blue one go out and I'm doing everything Okay, and then I get to the hot dog machine. I'll make a hot dog great My god, I can do that. All right now just start just a blow up that hot dog like harmonica and I go Play the hot dog like yeah, just start getting into it and rock that rock that hot dog like it's a harmonica And I was like oh my god, you better believe I rock that oh I've done so many things.

Oh my god So then the third thing I had ever gotten was this Miller like commercial with a van Holyfield in it that ran virtually the same time that punk came out and I made twice as much on that commercial Then I had made on a season of punk and in that Miller like commercial They made ahead of you they did like a prosthetic head because you get knocked out Well, he knocks my head off my shoulder in the commercial. Yeah, and so they made a prosthetic head and we now have that prosthetic head You've got we've gotten it back. Yeah, one of them. I think there's a few Christians used it's being a prank punk Yeah, she's used it many times to prank us she would have been a great host of that joke.

He loves to bring people and she's so believable Even when she tells jokes none of us understand half the time because she's acting so well. Yeah, so that was my fact Oh, so curiosity. Yeah, well one other fact. Uh is it ghost written or ghost wrote?

Hmm it's gotta be ghost written. I think so. Yeah like hanged Huh, you can't hung no one was hung everyone was hanged. You know that what do you mean?

You can't say they hung them. That's incorrect It's they hanged them really. Yes, isn't that bizarre? I didn't know that you want to Google it to make sure?

No, okay But so you wouldn't say they were hung I think you'd say they were hanged really? Yeah. Wow. Why I don't know That's definitely wrong.

I think you can say we hung a pitcher, right? Well, you definitely can yeah I don't think when you're talking about hanging someone it's hanged. That's weird. It is Well, you know what it was is like all these things I heard enough smart people say hang that I was like am I saying it wrong and looked it up?

Yeah, that's how I know it. Yeah, we're back. Oh my god. Yes.

We're back in Los Angeles after our long long trip across the pond Yes, in fact, we have to just say this because I've been wanting I want to post the picture as part of it Yeah, which is you took a shoulder ride Because I because the girls were giving each other shoulder rides I was giving the girls shoulder rides and then I got you up there on the shoulders which made you very scared Oh, yeah, but your face did not betray your feelings, which is impressive. Well back to the acting I guess that was your hot dog harmonica moment. They're just got in character real quick. Yeah, but you were pretty pretty afraid up there Yeah, I got anxious up there having nothing to do with you.

It's always me. It's like what if I pass out It's so interesting of all the people that I know I would pick you very less considering that used to fly 25 feet near I did it's so bizarre to me that you're afraid to be on shoulders I wouldn't do that now. I wouldn't fly Ryan always wants to stunt. Yeah, and I always say no like I'm not doing that anymore I'm tired.

I'm retired. I'm done. I'm scared. Well, we should also say that we're right now kind of basking in the glow We have a bit of rapture right now from having watched the shappell the latest special special Because he said it's last one in a long time in a for a minute.

He's a makes me scared. Mm-hmm. It's incredible It's fucking incredible. He's so good.