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Hello, welcome to the new books in Jewish Studies podcast. I am your host, Ari Bartlett. Today I am honored to be in dialogue with Dr. Barak Cohen.
He is a senior lecturer of Tomludek literature at Bar-E-Lan University. We are here to discuss his new book, For Out of Babylonia Shilkam-Torah and the Word of the Lord from Nahar Pickled, the quest for Babylonian tannah-idic traditions published in Lidin by Brill Publishers 2017. Barak, it's an honor to be in dialogue with you today. We're having me here.
To begin, can you tell us about the context behind your interest in this topic? Can you tell us the story of how your interest in this specific piece of research originated? Then I try to answer in this book is what happened in Babylonian during the Porthian period? In other words, what do we know?
We know that the Palestinian tannamud. We know that the tannamud in Palestine created literally the Arabic compositions in Erz Israel from the years 70, the destruction of the Second Temple. To the time of Rabbi Yudad the Prince in about 200 or 220 AD. Now what happened in Babylonia?
Since in Palestine we have the Mishnah, we have the Halakhic Midrashin. Also, what happened? We have also the Tosefta at the end of the tannah-idic period. But what information do we have communities in Babylonia of that period?
And about legal traditions in that the first two ask such questions, such a question was Professor Yashayao Gaffney in his book, the Jews of Babylonia in the tannah-idic period. He said that this is a very, very important and I leave this question to tell newists, to scholars who deal with Halakhah and literally compositions of Sifota Tosebel of Talmud, Talmudic literature. And this was very interesting for me and I had to find a solution and try to test these questions. And obviously, this book, for me, his story, his qualifications and Halakhic implications as well.
What are the primary themes in this book? What message does this book convey? This book tries to analyze the legal, tannah-idic legal traditions in the Babylonia in Tulum. And in this book I try to analyze or date, provide a new dating of the tannah-idic materials in Sassanian Babylonia.
In other words, the tannah-idic, Halakhic material, Adok-tannian reality. And how were they, how were these traditions redacted in a new way in Talmudic Babylonia? And this provided me in a new way, a new of dating Palestinian material in the Babylonia. What are the primary themes in this book?
What message does your book convey? This with a new dating of Palestinian material in the Babylonia in Tulum. Not only a new dating, but also it provides us with new scientific research methods of identifying Palestinian material in the Babylonia in Tulum. Every word scholar who deals with Talmudic history must know the different methods of how to date Palestinian traditions or by-taught in the Babylonia in Tulum.
There are all kinds of Palestinian traditions and all kinds of, they went through all kinds of reductional processes. But, however, one should know that area of dating the Palestinian material in the Babylonia in Tulum. What would you like listeners to get out of our dialogue today? I want them to get to know how Palestinian were brought from Palestine and adopted in Sassanian Babylonia.
Many of them were redacted in a based on Sassanian reality. Many of them were understood to be different from their original meaning and so on. But we have different criteria of how one should date any historian or Talmudist who deals with the Babylonian Talmud and wants to date and know the origin of these Talahidic or these halahot. Whether they were indeed Palestinian or not, needs to know the different criteria of how to date this material.
Why is it important to study early Babylonian-Tanahidic traditions? Because many of the interpretation of the Babylonian sages into the Mishnah in B'r'i'toth and to Biblical verses were based on earlier Tanahidic traditions. This is the general assessment of the source. So, therefore, one should get to know whether the Qur'a study was practiced in the Tanahidic period in Babylonia.
My conclusion was that we have very few halahid traditions in the Tanahidic period, very few that originated in Babylonia. And all that we know about the halahid in the Tanahidic period in Babylonia goes back to Palestine. In other words, Babylonia is the authority of Palestinian sages in Eretis-Rihi. Why is it important for students and readers to know about an independent Babylonian Mishnah, which originated in the Proto-Tamudic period?
Why is this relevant in the year 2023? Every scholar, historian or talahid analyzes or builds a historical picture, Palestine or Babylonia needs to know how to bait Palestinian material in the Babylonian Talmud. For instance, Khano-Halbik, one of the greatest scholars who has dealt with this topic, this issue during 1970, thought that a tradition, which is in Aramaic wordings, presented to us in the Talmudic, Suhya, in Aramaic and not in Hebrew, is thought to be of Babylonian origin and not Palestinian origin, since it is presented to us in Aramaic. Even though it is attributed to Palestinian origin as a Palestinian-Alaqah, this was found by me not true because many, many of the content of this Al-Aqah are indeed Palestinian in origin, because I knew of these Tanahidic traditions one by one and compared the content of these traditions to Palestinian-Tanahidic or Amorai, early Amorai-Alaqah, that even though they are terms or Aramaic wordings, they were indeed documented in earlier Palestinian-Alaqah.
This shows us that a teach Amoraiq wordings does not necessarily teach us about the name of the Babylonian-Halahqah tradition. You must go back and analyze always the content of the tradition, though you are indeed able to understand, is a Tanahidic or Amorai-Alaqah. How does your book contribute to debates surrounding continuity and change in Al-Aqah? In the book, I tried to differentiate between literary style and wording and content of Al-Aqah.
In other words, many of the Tanahidic traditions that attributed to Palestinian-Alaqah in Babylonia literally phenomena that modern scholarly research for their Babylonian-Halahqah, why? Because only when you check the content, Al-Aqah separately, only then this is the way between whether this Al-Aqah is a Babylonian or early, but points on the Palestinian picture, many historians who deals with the world of the Amoraiqah system in the Amoraiq period, Jewish marriage, gifts in contemplation of death, and different cultures in El-Aqis-Al-Aqah in Babylonia in Palestine in Babylonia. It is very, very important because when you build ages and their culture, you must know, make sure that if Al-Aqah, you base yourself upon, is you need to know if it's Tanahidic or Amoraiq, if it's early on Palestinian-Alaqah or late Babylonian. What new light does your book shed on the editing and redaction of the Talmud?
What world did editing play in the sources that you examined here? In this book, I tried to argue that there are many, many Tanahidic collections or traditions that were brought in a very earlier period from Palestine to Babylonia, and the Amoraiq period redacted these to be more of a Babylonian origin. In other words, the Babylonian and Babylonian wording, and they were from different sources, Palestinian sources, and then as a one provided, as a one legal source, but all these literary phenomena do not prove anything of these Tanahidic traditions. In other words, every story should be very cautious before building the history or attributing a specific source to a Babylonian origin and claim that this Al-Haus was created by the Babylonian Amorai and not the Palestinian Amorai because they always parallelize to the content of these Tanahidic traditions and not the literary style as they are in the Babylonian Talmud.
As a researcher, how do you balance academic objectivity with sincere devotion to the texts you examined in this book? Since this book appeared in 2017, how has it been received by different audiences? Which responses surprised you the most? There are many scholars who quoted the book while dealing with historical issues or topics such as Babylonia during the Tarthian period, during the Tanahidic period, or the relationship with Bylonia in the Tanahidic period, or in the question of whether a specific Tanahidic halacha depicted in the Babylonian Talmud or Palestinian halacha or invented in the Babylonian reality.
And I was really surprised that recently, Hebrew University, who dealt with other topics, mentioned the book is one of the most important scholarly topics nowadays in Talmudic research. So those who are unfamiliar with Halachic texts and rabbinic literature. Can you define the term Barrita? What does it mean to our listeners who might not have background in Talmud?
Can you explain what is a Barrita? Barrita, that I deal with in the book, the traditions, the Tanahid between the years, 70 AD, the destruction of the sand, the reduction of the Mishnah in third century AD. Now, a Barrita was did to legal material, which from the Mishnah by Abidudah the Prince, the great reducter of the Mishnah. We have many, many Tanahidic traditions that are mentioned by the Palestinian or the Babylonian, included by not included by the Tranahidic traditions, Tanahidic traditions, as they did towards the Mishnah, legal traditions attributed to the same Tanahid, same sages in Palestine during the, from whatever reason, when we in a specific case, one of these traditions were left out by Rabbi Judah the Prince in the reduction of the Mishnah.
But these traditions that are mentioned or quoted in Wishnah with specific terms, Babylonian, Tanahidic traditions or Tanahidic traditions or Barritaid, Baal, Ibramin or in Aramaic, means outside. These are traditions that were left outside from the Mishnahic legal corpus. Can you explain the Tanahid, Tanahid, Barritaid, what are they? Remember, I told our, if I translate a certain Tanah, a certain, or reciter, reciter is a specific word that Ashayi Yishid was.
And we have more than 30 such traditions in the Nohannalabek and many other scholars claim that these traditions are not originally from Palestine, but their origin is a Babylonian attribute to, are attributed to Palestinian origin. The reciter is cited the following in front of Al-Shishiva, a status quo in Palestine or in Babylonian. So I was mentioned in the Babylonian and every Barrita in order whether these traditions are or Babylonian. And even more important here there, why are these specific traditions opening, that their opening was Tanahkahne, who terms in the Babylonian Talmud, Babanam, in order to present openings to Tanahidic, usually Tanahidic traditions.
What's so special about these terms? Why are they provided this specific way? Who cares if these specific traditions were recited before a Roshishiva, head of a school or not? And my conclusion was that each enemy of this Barrita was presented before a Roshishiva because these traditions were very problematic with their halakhic content.
Therefore, only the Roshishiva as a Roshivat was halakhic, they were the Alakhic, Sassanian, Babylonia. And therefore only their approval, only their stamp of approval. When they approved such a Barrita, only then binding Alakhah in Sassanian Babylia that while the Talmud provides a table, a Roshivat in a table, then it's an explanation, theory, concept. When you say a certain Tanah recited the Barrita in front of Roshishiva meaning, a Roshivat in a table, who cares if these traditions were...
Relevance, relevance, importance, picture, law-shel-bot-ra, and in a sentence term. Okay, if you could please ask the question again, any other kinds of... Can you comment on the history of scholarship on this topic? Yes, many of the Barritos are considered to be Babylonian in origin.
Why? Because all kinds of literated to these Barrita, for instance, like the Barrita that I mentioned before, can it kind of come in? Certainly recited the Barrita in front of a local authority, Roshishiva in Babylonian. So why is it attributed to a Babylonian authority, according to the main argument by Roshitavitic researchers, this proves that the origin of these Alakhah are indeed Palestinian halakhah in Babylonian Aramae, because they were created in Babylonian.
Why are these? Why do these Palestinian halakhos don't have explicit parallels in literature in Palestine? Because they again were, urgent, was Babylonian, not Palestinian. Therefore, every historian or Talmudis who found these Barritos thought that they depict in the Talmud the world of the Babylonian sages, or Babylonian reallia of Halakhah, and not Palestinian halakhah.
But however, what I found was, the Abba'amawai, wordings, and other kinds of literately phenomena, they indeed proved that they went through a Babylonian reductional process. That's, there's no question about that. But many of these Alakhos are indeed Palestinian, not Babylonian. Why?
Because they are mentioned in different, than 80 Palestinian Alakhah or Hamawai. So what we date, Palestinian halakhah. How did you grow personally during the process of preparing this book? This book consists of nine chapters, nine different studies, five of them were published in different, very important journals, such as the Journal of Oxford University, Journal of Studies and so on.
And during the years, since the year 2013, after finishing my previous book on the local methodology of the Babylonian Abawai, I went, like these, behind, to understand how they were created, the Babylonian Abawai, Palestinian traditions and so on. And this is how I created this of year by year, finishing another study, and then a bigger picture of the Babylonian. This is how I, then, this is how I created the book in the years. A Safer Ontario means more police and prosecutors making sure my card doesn't get stolen.
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For all of us. Learn how at ontario.ca slash Safer Ontario paid for by the government of Ontario. How do the rabbis you examine here appear in the Jerusalem Talmud? Samuel, from the first generation of the Babylonian table, including his Balaite collection, collection of Balaite, legal traditions from Palestine, are also documented in the Palestinian, and in many, many cases, they are indeed Palestinian in origin because they are found, they have parallels in the tonic compilations in the tonic peer, but they're depicted in a very, very similar way.
Absolutely. And I think traditions of Levy, Levy than Sissy was a very famous scholar who immigrated from Palestine from Tiberia. He was a people of Rabijuda the Prince and he immigrated to Babylonia. He was even older than Shmuel and he also immigrated to the city of Nairadia.
And in Nairadia, he also created, redacted a kinetic corpus of Palestinian material. How does Rashi interpret the anecdotes and traditions attributed to the sages you examined here? I think that Rashi was the first one to claim that these traditions were indeed collections of the Amorain, the literature. In other words, the Reonia and the origin was indeed Palestinian.
Scholars nowadays were very skeptical about Rashi's interpretation to this phenomenon, to this Balaite, and this is the reason that I dealt with this topic in depth. This book is mainly for researches of the history, with the history of the Babylonian and Palestinian sages, or Tanudic scholars who tried to deal with the reduction of the Babylonian Talmud and reduction of the Tanite compositions in Babylonia. Since this book was published in 2017, as you're thinking on this topic, changed or evolved in any specific ways. Yes, in a separate study published two years ago in 2020, in the Journal of Asian, that there's also another reason why this is behind wine.
And we're not into usual terms, Tania and Tanor-banana are right. I found out that why Lege, who quotes or recites uses the term Tania or Tanor-banana, such as usual Tanite sauce, was Lege's in quotes in the name of the earlier sage, Tanay, Tanay, Tanay, Tanay, or create, or recitation of the Balaite in the name of the Babylonian, see how the terms in Babylonia are. The earlier sage who quotes the first time the Balaite in the Babylonian Talmud uses a verb Tania or Tanor-banana, but a later sage who quotes is in his name quotes the same tradition in the name of that earlier sage creates a term, a little term Tanay, love Bloni, Tanay, love Bloni in the Babylonia term. Perhaps in time and space constraints, whether any questions or topics, you wish you could have included in this book, but could not due to limits and circumstances, what subject matter if any would you ideally have included, but did not or could not.
It also provides the readers with compositions in Babylonia, but I thought that by providing with too many examples, and by examining so many Tanayite compilations was pointless, and therefore I thought that by providing the readers with 6, 7 or 9, Tanayite compilations would be enough. What misconceptions about the history of Halacha does your book challenge? Why do these misconceptions exist? Why are these misconceptions problematic?
That one of the reasons that attributions in the Babylonia and Talmud are unreliable is because they were passed on from generation to generation by heart. We all know that by doing so, by memorizing hundreds of legal traditions, they could be very unreliable or changed. This, my analysis of the text proved this to be wrong because you see that many legal traditions that are mentioned already in earlier, palestini compilations were, they were indeed the wording of the even we were rewritten in Babylonia and a remake, but their content was distributed and originated in relations. So therefore, I think by using this argument in general that passing on Halacha by heart considered as very problematic the case, because if a Tanayite composition, Halacha mentioned in the Containic of faith, recited in Babylonia in the same interlude, in a chronological, huge, or 300 years, is one case.
We're talking about tens of cases, a oral tradition, think conclusions of my book of my recent book. And there are many people that you think in your acknowledgments. Would you like to express gratitude to anyone publicly who helped you in developing this book? First of all, the original idea was from my master's thesis advisor, Professor Mervil, Al-Afashalom, Sichuan Olivoch.
And he's the first one who provided me with the idea, even though it wasn't the subject of my PhD dissertation, but I always thought about this topic. And after finishing my book on the legal traditions of the Babylonia, the legal methodology of the Babylonia number line, I had to go back and try to analyze and see if his idea, Sichuan Olivoch, I think, is absolutely true idea of research. And I had to go on and try to prove it. Why?
Because after reading, Yishai El-Gafni's book, the History of the Jews, but I had to do the conduct in such a research. How do you feel about the time? Should we go on? Is there anything else you'd like to address regarding this book?
Do you feel ready to wrap up? It's already eight o'clock. It's already eight o'clock. What's happening with you?
Where are you? OK, I apologize. OK. And our dialogue today, can you tell us about your current research and the research you have done since completed this book?
My current research deals with about the question of the legal rule rule, based on legal pluralism and tolerance towards diversity, diverse opinions, and Sasanian Babylonia, or Amoimore's subject to earlier traditions. They couldn't contradict these earlier traditions. And I was able to provide three different studies, the legal system that's different. And as we end our dialogue today, I'd like to express my utmost gratitude to you for your time and attention.
Thank you for your thoughtful and detailed answers throughout the course of our conversation. Thank you, Ali, for being invited. We invite you. Thank you.
It was a tremendous honor. Thank you. To our listeners, I am your host today, Ari Barvalat, on the new Books and Jewish Studies podcast. I have been in dialogue with Dr.
Barak Cohen. We have been discussing his book, For Out of Babylonia, Shel Kam Torah, and the Word of the Lord from Nihar Pikod, The Quest for Babylonian Tectonic Traditions, published in Leaden, Netherlands, by Brill Publishers 2017. Dr. Cohen is a senior lecturer of Talmudic Literature at Barilang University.
Thank you.