Before Midnight

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I'm Craig Malef. Cheers. Cheers. Cheers.

I've always been a glass half folk kind of guy. And now, I'm talking to some people who look at the world that way too. Some really fascinating folks who share their good finding moments, their triumphs, their challenges, their stories are funny. And I can't ignore them.

So I hope you'll join me each week. Who knows? You might just come away with your own glass half folk. Search glass half folk with Craig Malef and from today.

On YouTube, wherever you get your podcast. It's been extremely hard. The hardest part of it is the crime scene picture of our mom. I always told myself she didn't see it coming.

Someone shot them. What did I? Four bullets. Making sure she was there.

And blinds were all pulled. The phone cords had been cut. Who wanted this very nice, professional woman dead? This has to do something with her business.

Maybe she found out something that one of her clients sort of been doing. He didn't hear whispers around you a lot of suspicion that it has to your father. Did you murder your wife? No.

I know anyone's capable of doing anything, but we would know. We're his kids. Greed? Hate?

Burnt? Our mom's killer is still out there. Kind of a stunner, huh? Yes.

I believe to be justice. There will be justice for my cousin. A few minutes after sunrise, on the morning of November 4th, 2014, David Zimmerman rose from his bed in a quiet suburb of Bloomington, Illinois. Eager to dispose of a small worry that had been nagging at him all night.

He patted across the room to his bedroom door. Woke up and walk out into the kind of main hallway that we have and the lights were still on. The lights he left on, but he went to bed. Which meant what?

David was 17 years old, the eldest of Pam Zimmerman's three children. They not uncommonly left the lights on for their mom when she worked late at her financial planning business. Or when she stepped out with her new man. Typically when she got home, she turned the lights off.

But this Tuesday morning, her bedroom is dark and looked like no one had been there. Tell me what was going on in your mind when you saw that? My mind was probably a million different places. I thought it was the weirdest thing.

I was like, all right, she didn't come home. So where is she? Had to be a reasonable explanation. Pam Zimmerman was so reliable.

Two years divorced, a successful businesswoman and fully engaged mother, a pillar of the neighborhood. David and his 15-year-old twin sisters Heidi and Rachel tried to push their worries aside. We made up like every possible excuse it could have been for why she wouldn't come home. You don't want to focus on that.

But some signs were hard to ignore. For one thing, the night before when Pam didn't respond to her kids' text messages, Heidi tried tracing her from what she found didn't make sense. My mom and I shared a like, find my iPhone account so I looked it up on her computer where iPhone was and I saw it was in this. It wasn't at her office.

It was in a weird location. I convinced myself that she was at a client's house because that was my excuse, the time for why she was at home. Still, their mom was a rock center of their universe. They told themselves they'd be laughing about this later.

Or they'd be relieved anyway. We said let's just get ready for school. Let's keep on with our day. Should we home when we get home?

Yeah. Same time, same morning, and just two doors down the street. One of Pam's closest friends, Julie Cole, was still in her pajamas. My home phone ring, which was odd because your home phone never rings that early.

How are the ever rings ever anyway? Right. I mean, we're one of the rare people that still have a home phone. And so I picked it up and it was Scott.

Scott Baldwin was Pam Zimmerman's fiancé. He lived a few hours away near Chicago. He said, I haven't heard from Pam. I'm really worried.

I don't know what's going on. I've been trying to reach her since last night. She's not answering. So she lived just a couple houses down here, right?

Right. She's two houses down there, right? So I walked down here and knocked on the front door and David answered and I said, where's your mom? And he said, I don't know, she didn't come home last night.

And I said, what do you mean she didn't come home last night? And he said, well, where is she? I believe they had been trying to reach her since 5.30, the night before. And she didn't answer.

For the kids, she tried to hide the worry, flooding into her brain. She's like, okay, just go to school like you normally would and I'll text you later when I know something. Maybe, thought Julie, maybe there was some simple explanation. She rushed home, got dressed, jumped in her car and headed straight to Pam's office.

Maybe Pam fell asleep while working late. I don't really know. I don't really know what my thinking was. Pam's kids tried to concentrate on their school work.

Couldn't. I just remember going to school and Rachel and I sat across from two of our friends at school and I just lost it and started balling and the whole morning was really hard. By now, there was a tribe of frightened people. This is Pam's cousin, Vicki.

I have a brother who's 18 years younger than me, he called and he said, they can't find Pam and I go, what? He goes, they can't find Pam and I said, that's not good. And he goes to know what's not. The drive to Pam's office didn't take long.

Julie Cole pulled into the parking lot and right away, she saw something that would lead her to call 911. An awful discovery at Pam's office. The lights were all off, the blinds were all pulled. All of a sudden I hear her say, oh my god, oh my god, oh my god.

I remember thinking, everything has changed in my life right now. Everything has changed for those kids. There's David and his cheeks are staying with tears. 7 a.m.

November 4th, 2014, Julie Cole, full of trepidation, arrived outside the business office of her missing friend and neighbor, Pam Zimmer. Nobody around, except what's in that Pam's car in the lot? Julie Cole, her husband. When he said, call 911, so I called 911 and she said, do you want to file a missing person's report?

And I said, I don't even know she's missing. And then she saw someone who could help. Right as I pulled in, I know was parked right over there and she was getting out of her car and walking towards me. And I knew I knew I know, right.

So I jumped out of my car and I said, Pam didn't come home last night. I know Hess was Pam's friend and longtime office manager. I know said Pam seemed fine the day before. Said when she left around 4.30 p.m., Pam was meeting with her last client at the day behind closed doors.

But I know had a key to the building in office. So the two women headed in. I opened the door there and the lights were all off. The blinds were all pulled.

Was that unusual? Very. The blinds in my area, the reception area, were never closed. But they were this time?

They were closed. And I reached over and turned the lights which on. And all of a sudden I hear her say, oh my god, oh my god, oh my god. And I walked over to where she was and we could see Pam's body kind of laying in a fetal position.

Julie is a nurse. She checked for signs of life. I remember leaning down and checking for a carotid pulse and I remember thinking everything has changed in my life right now. Everything has changed for those kids.

And their life will never be the same. So there are two things going on at once. Right, right. You just, that's how you're trained.

You immediately focus, emotions are put aside. I knew something was bad. I knew something wasn't right. I knew not to move her.

Ina has stared rooted to the spot. I guess I kind of went into shock because I just, I saw her lying there. But you had no idea what happened. No.

She could have had a heart attack or something. Could have. Or maybe she tripped over a footrest behind a reception desk. Kind of in the back of my mind.

I'm like, well, did she hit her head? Police arrived in minutes. Julie's phone's still pinging. The kids are still texting.

I keep saying someone needs to go to them and tell them what's going on. Eventually, officers went to the high school. And one by one, Pam's children, recalled to a conference room where the police told them their mother was dead. That was the worst part that they didn't tell us all together.

And they brought me to this room and there's David and his cheeks are staying with tears. And I just had to see that. And then they told me, and then I was just bowing, and then David starts bowing again. And then like half an hour later, the same thing happens with Rachel.

Oh, Lord. Can't imagine a day like that. Did you know where your dad was? Did you know where any sort of center of your lives was?

Okay. You know anything after that they just took us into questioning. But then it was hard for anyone to focus on anything other than loss, all-consuming grief. She was the neatest friend cousin you could ever ask for.

You needed something? She beat her heartbeat. outgoing, gregarious type. Oh, she would talk to anybody.

Everybody knew her. And she made everybody feel like they were, you know, one of her closest friends. That's how she was, and she was sincere. A caregiver, and as that was Pam Zimmerman.

But to her sister, Diane Gifford, and brother, Larry Alexander. Pam was also the family smart ambitious star. She was valedictorian at her class. Yeah.

Graduating class. She was straight A student in her entire grade school and high school, except, I think, 1B, what she got in Homec. I mean, I'm always known. We had the most amazing mom.

Such a bright, happy person. Full of wisdom, smart, funny. I could go on and on. She always made sure that we came first.

She'd come home from work, she'd make us dinner, she'd stay up all night helping us with homework or doing our laundry. We called her, like, super mom because she literally did everything. And yet for all the love she inspired. Pam Zimmerman must have stirred something dark in someone, or got in someone's way.

Wasn't long before the police figured out that her death was no accident. When did the police tell you? Nothing. They kept the evidence very, very, very quiet.

When did you find out how she was killed? A few days later, police called me and said that the newspapers wanted to release some information. You should tell the kids. And the only thing they would tell me, the cause of death, was multiple gunshots.

Pam Zimmerman had been murdered. But by whom? Police started with the men around her. Her new fiance.

He had at least two other women that he had been involved with. Her final client. He owned a nine millimeter gun. And she was shot with one of those.

And what about her ex? As the day wraps up, get the scoop on what's been happening. With Here's the Scoop, a new podcast for NBC News. With me, your host, Gazzam Dizugio.

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Listen daily on Amazon Music. Hey guys, Willie Geist here reminding you to check out the Sunday Sit Down podcast. On this week's episode, I sit down with one of the biggest bands in the world, Mumford and Sons. As we get the boys together to talk about their new number one album, Prize Fighter, and the evolution of that irresistible foot stomping sound.

You can get our conversation for free wherever you download your podcasts. It's case was lying on the floor. Did you get the sense that maybe the police thought somebody wanted to steal something and they were in the process of it and got interrupted or something? They could have thought that.

But there was no sign of forced entry, none. And Cops found Pam's cell phone right where her daughter's find my iPhone account said it would be, her wallet close by, with her credit cards all there. So the police believed early on that this was a staged effort to make it look like it was a robbery. But who'd want to kill Pam and then stage some strange half-hearted cover-up?

Start Close is the old adage, which meant in Pam's world on that day three men. Her last client, that last day of her life, her ex-husband, and her brand new fiance, Scott Baldwin, the object of a whirlwind romance, and perhaps two rapid engagement. After all, no one in the family really knew him, not even her kids. I had only met Scott three times, and the third time was the party that they had to celebrate their engagement.

That celebration was just days before, yet when Scott heard about the murder, he did not rush to Bloomington from his home just two or three hours away near Chicago. I just made me realize and think what my mum really meant to her and what we really meant to her. He sounded fake at that point. Pam's kids have questions about Scott, and so did detectives.

He was asked to come down to Bloomington to meet with police, which he did the following day, after Pam's body was discovered. Scott told the detectives he'd been home, alone, when Pam was killed. Police would look into that, but in the meantime they discovered something very interesting about Pam's new fiance. They spent a fair amount of time checking into who he had been communicating with, and he had at least two other women.

If he had been involved with it, he was still having some pretty heavy amount of contact with. Pam's kids didn't know anything about that, but they did get a weird vibe from the fiance after their mother's death. He was like, I have nothing to do with this, and I need you guys to understand that I have to move on. I'm sorry, did you repeat that for me?

We had dinner with him like a week after she died, and he sat us down. You do ask him if he had something to do with him? No, he just volunteered that. And two months later, he was dating someone new.

It was just very suspicious. But Pam's daughter Rachel thought it was much more likely her mum's murder was somehow tied to her business. She was an accountant and financial advisor. Maybe she found out something that one of her clients would have been doing, and this client would have lost a lot of money.

Aina has told the investigators that Pam's last client day she was murdered was a man in Elden Whitlow. Did he have any beefs with Pam? There was no evidence that Elden had any beefs. They had a long-term professional relationship where she was helping him with his investments.

Whitlow told detectives his meeting with Pam was uneventful. He left around 5.40 pm, he said, then had dinner with his girlfriend. He was cooperative, but... He owned a nine-millimeter gun.

And she was shocked with one of those. That matched the type of gun that she was killed by. Now that was a development. Elden Whitlow was considered a person of interest.

Detectives got a search warrant, and Elden turned over a nine-millimeter. The nine-millimeter. They sent it off for testing. And as they waited for the results, they drilled down on that one more possible person of interest.

The third man. The man who just might have had a motive. Pam's ex-husband, Kirk Zimmerman. Look at him, said Pam's family.

There was something going on there. Um... It definitely turned into hatred. Not at problems.

Problems? Hatred? Exactly what was the problem between Pam Zimmerman and her ex-husband, Kirk. The ex?

The client? The fiancé? Revelations about them all. Who was it who said no secrets in a murder investigation?

Exactly. Police investigating the murder of Pam Zimmerman now had a short list. Her fiancé, Scott, her client, Elden, and a third man, her ex-husband, Kirk. Some of Pam's relatives were convinced, though, that Kirk should have been the first, maybe only name on that list.

She would always say that if anything ever happened to her, he should be the person we should look at. Well, you can't wonder when she said the thing like that. Well, and you wonder and you think, oh, come on, you don't really mean that. Did you say that to her?

Yeah, and she goes, oh, no, I mean it. So, in the hours after his ex-wife's murder, Kirk Zimmerman spent a lot of time with detectives. And he answered their questions, calmly. He or at state farms, sir?

Not once did he ask for an attorney. What do you do for state farms? When they asked about the divorce, Kirk said his only real concern was for the kids. I would have preferred to keep knowing that at least till the kids were off to college, because by then they're at home.

The detectives asked Kirk what he did the evening Pam was killed. He said he was at home, started to read, must have dozed off. I have noticed lately when I read. Nothing, not even this, seemed to rattle Kirk.

Did you murder your wife? They got his fingerprints and a DNA sample, and they did a gunshot residue test. Am I required to do this? He wasn't, but he did it anyway.

And he didn't resist handing over his phone or his laptop or passwords, either. His car and house were another matter, though. Police had search warrants for those. He was dropped off at a hotel.

Because he didn't have his house? Because he did not have a house. The police were there and stayed there for six days. Wow.

Yeah. No discoveries, really. Except Kirk had a girlfriend named Kate, and she revealed something very curious. She and Kirk had a date scheduled.

The night time died. Kate arrived early to Kirk's house around 630, rang the doorbell. No answer. Well, well, Kirk hadn't told them about any date, and certainly hadn't revealed he didn't answer the door when she rang.

So, second interview, they pressed him again. What was the reason why he didn't say that Kate was here? Keep her out of there. Still, the girlfriend's story put a hole in his alibi.

Was he home the night time was killed? Or was he somewhere else? Well, it was one that the police really had to sort through to see if it was a credible story or not. They let him go again.

Kirk's kids couldn't see their dad as a suspect. They said their parents divorced and then drama-free. I think they both realized that they came to want different things. Kirk's brother, Zim, agreed.

He was Pam's best friend, and he loved her like a sister, saw her marriage up close, and the way it ended. There was never any hostility, open-air arguments. The kids and I, we never saw anything. If anything, they said the two seemed much happier.

Kirk got a house just down the street and around the corner just to be close to them. I'm really glad he did. It made it really easy on us. And he did stay very involved in their lives.

Dad videotaped all of our sporting events. A lot of our games, a lot of basketball games, and stuff like games. Besides their dad, now had Kate. They'd been dating for more than a year.

I really liked her. Yeah, Kate's awesome. Yeah. So dad, a murderer, seemed absurd to the kids.

I think he was happy with where he was at. Now, days, months slid by. The detectives were busy, but very quiet about it. Well, everyone waited.

They tested that nine millimeter, turned in by Time's client, Elden Whitlow. It was not the gun that had fired the bullets that killed Pam Zimmerman. They checked his alibi, discovered he did have dinner with his girlfriend. And then later that evening, he met another woman.

He had been checked out, and then he had been cleared. As for the fiancé's got Baldwin, his secret dalliance has raised eyebrows, but wound up working for him. Police confirmed he had been miles away when his fiance died, phoning and texting to other women. What is it about the men in this story?

Both of the men had to make some pretty embarrassing admissions. Who was it who said, maybe it was Agatha Christie? No secrets and a murder investigation. Exactly.

They both had to admit that they had been messing around. But Kirk, not so easy to clear him. So police followed the money. And they heard things, different things, from what his kids and brothers said about the divorce, like a simmering resentment that Pam got the house after the divorce, and most important, more money from him.

He had a goal of returning 55 from the burial zone in his 20s. And it got all messed up. To the stew to the moment, days before she was killed, Pam FedEx Kirk had demanded pay close to $4,000 in expenses for the kids, or else. She was giving him five days to pay it, or she was going to take him back to court.

Office manager Ina said Pam told her she was truly afraid of Kirk. I just warned her that when she worked late at night, make sure she went out the front door where all the lights were on. Yeah. And made sure that she was always cautious.

Money, the root of all evil, and something else they found. What was that telltale residue in Kirk's car? It was enough. On a summer morning, eight months after Pam Zimmerman's death, a cop turned on his squad car lights and sirens, pulled over a motorist, read him his rights.

Kirk Zimmerman was under arrest for murder. Hey, murder. Prosecutors lay out their case with a dramatic eyewitness. She saw a guy coming out that back door of Pam's office.

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Price is subject to change. Visit NBCNews.com slash XFINITY for full offer terms and details. Just like that, a second parent was gone. The twins still minors were told they'd be living with Pam's siblings now.

Rachel and I were taken into DCFS custody where we were forced to live at them for three months. In our mom's house, so that was just one huge nightmare. It got to be hateful, angry all the time, no matter what we did. But of course, Pam's kids knew perfectly well that their aunts and uncles believed their dad killed their mom.

I was 16 and our aunt Diane sat me down alone in my mom's family room and she just plainly said, your dad killed your mom. You think about the possibility that your dad could be violent like that? No. I know anyone's capable of doing anything but we would know where his kids lived with him.

I honestly believe if she ever really felt threatened, she really felt at risk. The first person she would have reached out to was me and she never did. Kirk spent four months in jail before bonding out and for the next three and a half years remained under house arrest. He couldn't leave the house.

Rachel and Heidi couldn't stay in the house with him alone. There had to be another person who was 18 or older. The entire time. The whole time waiting for trial?

Mm-hmm. That's how we turned 18. You turned 18. Pam's neighbor and friend, Julie Ko, tried to help.

You know, I took his daughter driving because they were learning to drive. I remember driving one daughter to college and she went to Mizzou so I took her. But while friends tried to help Pam's kids, they could not protect him from a widespread and very public suspicion that their father killed their mother. And the case always seemed to be in the news.

Potential evidence that came out was pretty damaging to Kirk's government because a lot of it dealt with the exchanges he had with Pam during the divorce. Those exchanges were front and center when the state finally presented its case in trial. Creed, hate, murder. Assistant state's attorney Brad Rigdon told the jury the motive was clear.

Kirk Zimmerman killed his wife over money. He knew as long as she was still alive, he's going to go broke. The motive and the means said the state. Kirk's cell phone put him at home tonight his ex-diet but the prosecutor told the jury that Kirk's car, Hyundai, told a different story.

The car, like most cars now, had an onboard computer, a kind of GPS device. And an FBI analyst said that device revealed that the car was in the vicinity of Pam's office. So the police got some surveillance video pretty early on from a building nearby Pam's office and they believed there was a car that matched Kirk Zimmerman's. And said the prosecutor, there was an eyewitness, this woman, so nervous as she took the stand.

She could barely get her name out. Sell your first name? Pam. But what she had to say was important, said Pam's brother.

You know, she saw a guy coming out that back door of Pam's office. You didn't know that was Pam's office at the time. And that man she said was carrying a bag. What did he do with the bag?

Put it in his car. That was the stuff he took out of the office. And who was that man? On this point, the state's emotional witness was certain.

You didn't have any hope, you didn't have anything to do with it. Investigators never found the murder weapon. But on the gear shift in Kirk's car, gunshot residue. So this forensic scientist.

That airship handle either contact any gunshot residue related item or was in the environment of a discharge firearm. But remember the friends and family who said Pam told them she was afraid Kirk might kill her? That was hearsay ruled the judge. They were not allowed to present that to the jury.

You know in a case where they're alleging that an angry ex-husband killed his wife, motive is everything, frankly. Yes. The jury did hear all about that letter, Pam FedExed a Kirk days before her murder, demanding $4,000. Pam's ongoing financial dispute said the prosecutor were going to prevent Kirk from realizing his cherished dream of retiring early.

And he wasn't going to take it, so he killed her. The receipt of that October 24th letter was the triggering event that culminated in the murder of Pam's environment on November 3rd. Which Pam's children replied, ridiculous. I didn't think it made any sense at all.

The defense was up next with its own case, its own take on the facts. And what a spectacle that would be. He had in excess of $240,000 in his 401k. The defense tries to blow up the money motive, and another blow up on the witness stand.

What would the jury do? There were so many little pieces, so many bits of evidence to parade before the jury. The case against Kirk Zimmerman went on for more than four weeks through four heat witnesses. And pretty much all of it said Pam and Kirk's children was wrong.

You can put together little pieces any way you want, but the way they put it together wasn't the right way. So now, Bloomington would hear Kirk Zimmerman's side of the story. Kirk Zimmerman did not shoot and kill Pamela in the room. He didn't shoot and kill the mother of his three children.

Over owing $3,900 in child support. That state theory that Kirk killed Pam over money, nonsense, that his defense attorney, John Rogers. Kirk made it clear to the police, he said. That FedEx from Pam was no big deal.

It didn't affect me. You're wondering if I disagreed or argued with her about it? Kirk had a full pension guaranteed for life, which he could have taken at any point in time. He was making $95,000 working for State Farm.

He had in excess of $240,000 in his 401k. The defense stole the court. The police had tunnel vision from the very start. It's the old, let's go look at the ex-husband, he must have died.

That grainy video the prosecution suggested was Kirk's silver Hyundai sonata. Really, said that it affects? How could you tell? I don't remember the months and the years, I don't and I don't want to hear no more.

And then there was Maria Leg, the prosecution's only eyewitness. I had a very difficult cross examination with her because she simply chose not to respond to me. No, I don't want to answer to you because I want to say what I saw. And when she did respond, her testimony contradicted the prosecution's evidence.

Like, for example, the color of Kirk's car. You said, found during the recognition that it was a black car, that this John went to with a big bag, correct? Yes, sir. All right, that's not a silver car, is it?

The ice over it, is it? The defense also challenged that data taken from the onboard computer system in Kirk's silver Hyundai. Pings the state said what the car near Pam's office. The defense called it junk science.

This type of expert testimony has never been allowed in the state of Illinois before. It should not have been allowed in this case. But how could the defense answer for that gunshot residue? Found on Kirk's gear shift.

A defense expert agreed there was plenty of it on that spot. But finding that number of characteristic of gunshot residue particles is surprising. Maybe too surprising? Especially because there was none anywhere else in the car.

So it looked like some kind of a stake. Or worse. Your suggestion is what? Either gunshot residue was purposely placed on the lever, or came into contact with either clothing, a firearm, or the hands of the two police officers that had been in a crime scene.

Either way, Roger suggested sloppy police work with the hallmark of the investigation. He said police should have dug deeper when they heard what this woman had to say. I heard what I believe to be gunshots. The defense had an ear witness of sorts.

Who testified that though more than a block away, she heard gunshots to the office at 5pm. Which fit the coroner's time of death window of some time before midnight. And why was that important? That's the exact time that Mr.

Whitlow has himself in Pam's office. Elden Whitlow, Pam's last client of the day. I'm not contending that I had enough evidence to prove Mr. Whitlow's shot Pam's but certainly when they claimed that they investigated Mr.

Whitlow with the same intensity that they investigated Mr. Zimmerman, that was not true. But police said they investigated Whitlow thoroughly and cleared him. The lawyers made their final appeal to the jury.

This is not what proof beyond a reasonable doubt looks like. We do not speculate people into murder convictions. Yeah, this has shown me that when he was 13, 2014 he heard a cancer woman and he made sure his hate got carried out in that poor shot. That was for him to find the defendant guilty.

The family, as polarized as the most poisonous politics, waited. I was just pacing back and forth, kind of freaking out a little bit. And then, after a day and a half of deliberations, the signal, verdict her. I look back, ladies and gentlemen, everyone may be seated.

I was shaking. It just felt very long. The courtroom was utterly silent, a collective holding of breath. We the jury find the defendant for Zimmerman not guilty of the first degree of murder.

Not guilty. The children exhaled. It was just a huge relief just to know that. Our dad wouldn't want to be going away for something he didn't do.

I mean, just cried and smiled. It was the best feeling ever. Across the aisle was a different world. I remember saying no.

Yeah. And they took us upstairs to the state attorney's office. The state was just as devastated as we were. Are you used to this yet?

No. It's not been very long. No. They're still a lot anger.

Because there's nothing you can do now, right? No, isn't. A family truly divided. Diana Larry Angry disappointed.

Denise's a nephew, elated, and hopeful. My dad can actually go out to eat now, so we've been going out to restaurants He came with me to my dentist appointment because he hasn't been able to do that in a really long time. It's kind of awkward because I'm 20. But he's just trying to make up for the lost four and a half years.

Now, said David, Rachel, and Heidi. They're hoping the state will solve their mom's murder. I obviously hope that they do catch you ever did it, but I want to be surprised if they don't. What's going to happen to the family?

I think all of us want to move out of Bloomington. So that's for sure. Nothing else. After all the trauma, these three are by the look of it fine.

It's because they said they had a wonderful mother, Pam Zimmerman. You three have all done pretty well so far. What would she think about? Where you are in life and way to accomplish?

I think she'd be incredibly proud of how well we've handled everything and how it hasn't like derailed us. You think about how she want you live and how she want you to keep going. So that's what I've just been trying to do. You might just come away with your own glass apple.

Search glass apple with Craig Nelvin from today on YouTube and wherever you get a podcast.