This episode contains sensitive topic discussions, including suicide. If you or someone you know has been affected by anything you hear in this episode, please contact the Samaritans on 116 123 or go to samaritans.org. This is a Global Player original podcast. Hello and welcome to this bonus episode of You're Wrong About ADHD.
We're going to look at misinformation around ADHD and make no apologies for returning to this subject because there is so much out there about ADHD that just isn't true. And we always think it's good to set the record straight. Absolutely. And who better to help us do just that than the incredible Dr.
Lindsay Roberts, who brings a wealth of experience as a chartered psychologist and has been at the forefront of improving healthcare and supporting ADHD research. We'll be talking about some of the biggest ADHD misconceptions and debunking those myths with Lindsay's expertise. Let's get into it. Hello, Lindsay.
Thanks so much for joining us. Hi. Thanks for having me. It's exciting to be here.
We have talked at length about ADHD. We've talked to all sorts of different people about ADHD. There does feel like there's a shift in terms of the public understanding of ADHD. It's quite a wide open question.
But how do you feel about that? Do you think that we're going in a positive direction? How do you think things are changing? So it's massive.
So I started doing my undergrad in psychology in 99. And in my undergraduate, there was nothing about neurodiversity, nothing about ADHD. Didn't really start to come on my radar until about six years ago. And the reason that there's been this shift is because the DSM-5, which lists all of their mental health conditions and all the diagnoses, changed ADHD from a neurodevelopmental condition that just affects children that people grow out of to spanning an entire lifespan.
So if you've got an ADHD diagnosis, even if you haven't, if you're born with it, you're going to have it for the rest of your life. And then I think that coupled with the changes in technology and social media, TikTok, Instagram, Facebook, it's joining the dots for a lot of people that wouldn't have a point of reference. And that's me included, really. And you think those funny things that pop up that you just think are your quirks when you see that other people have it too.
And then there's a collection of tick boxes for the diagnosis. And you start to think, hmm, OK, I might be in this camp now. And I think that's what's causing the kind of the landslide of people seeking diagnoses at the moment. It's so interesting what you say about the fact that it's changed from being something that we thought only kids had to something that we've recognised, but it's a lifelong condition.
And the challenges might come and go because your life might change and the environment might change, but ultimately we're always going to have ADHD. Because we'd love to talk to you today about the misconceptions, the myths of ADHD. Of course, that was one of them. But if we could start with the fact that everyone used to think that all ADHDers were hyperactive.
And that, of course, isn't true, is it? Not at all, no. In fact, I have ADHD. I was only diagnosed last year.
And when I looked at the list of the criteria, I thought, it doesn't fit me. That's not the right count for me. But then when I talked to the psychiatrist, and you realise that a lot of the lists on the diagnostic screening really are related to younger boys. And that's what's led the research into the diagnosis and the assessment.
And that actually boys tend to be diagnosed age 12. Women and girls, by the time they tend to be diagnosed when they're 36 years old. And usually it's because they've got the inattentive type and the wheels start to fall off and perimenopause. And they're like, why am I so incredibly tired?
Why can't I function? Surely this is life on hard mode. This is where we're starting to pick up the women with ADHD. It's affecting me.
It's affecting millions. And that's the difference. There's a massive shift. It is.
And it is mostly women who've been affected by that misconception, isn't it? With this awareness, the fact that we're having this conversation, do you feel like we're moving to a place where that's going to get picked up sooner, that we understand the differences? Yes, there's an awareness. But sadly, and I say this as NHS staff as well, because I've been there, people don't know how to refer.
They don't know what to do. So when my daughter, who's 12 now, was four, I didn't have my own diagnosis, but I had the DSM-5 and knew where to get it. And I gave examples how I thought that she met every point of criteria. And my lovely GP, who'd been her GP the entire life, said, this is awesome, but you probably know Lindsay what to do with this better than I do.
And I said, actually, I don't. How do we refer? How do we get a referral to CAMS? I just didn't know at that point that you could self-refer.
So while NHS staff have awareness, sympathy, compassion, I think a lot of the time I'm not sure what to do. And the services that are there are tremendously overloaded. And people who are in the field and are trying to make a massive difference can only do the best that they can do, nine to five, or even outside of hours. And it's tough for them as well.
And the government are probably feeling the pinch and probably feeling quite overloaded. And they're probably not sure what to do about it either. To what extent is awareness going to drive this, though? I mean, you've painted a picture which is a worrying one, but honestly, it's a picture that we've discussed before.
To what extent do you think just having the awareness out there in society and continuing to make sure that people understand what ADHD is, do you think that will drive the change? Oh, there's three massive points around the awareness. Number one is it reduces stigma, you hope, and increases compassion and kindness. And thankfully, in a way, people seem to think that ADHD is a bit more funny, a bit more quirky, not something to be worried about.
But that leads to a problem that then there might be under-resourcing and lack of support for people who have ADHD. The second factor is that the need for diagnosis, the need for assessment is going to drive it, whether people like it or not, because people get more and more forceful as they try to reach out for help for themselves and their family. And that is leading to a bottleneck, a massive bottleneck. But the more and more requests, the more and more people request a diagnosis, access to treatment, support, that's what's changing the perception at the top levels because the need needs to be met.
What you said there, ultimately, is that people don't necessarily take ADHD seriously enough, which I think leads us nicely onto our next misconception, this idea that ADHD is an excuse for bad behaviour. How would you challenge that perspective? Oh, goodness me. It's not an excuse, but it is a reason.
And the best way to challenge that is really to say, like, educate yourself and other people and find out a little bit more. I think there's a lovely conception that ADHD is a superpower, and that's really nice. But if that's the case, then the people who are really struggling, really suffering won't get any support. And let's not shy away from the fact that people with ADHD can lose their lives to suicide and drug addictions because the brain needs a stimuli.
And it's going to get it from somewhere, whether it's my own personal Haribo addiction or whether it's a Haribo addiction, not my personal choice. But some people are affected by that, and we can't shy away from that. And we need to make sure that people don't fall into that pattern and that people get support. And kids in schools who are really struggling, it's not the parents' fault.
Everybody needs to come together to support young people and adults in jobs who need help staying in jobs and staying in work. Otherwise, you know, we're falling out of systems and into dangerous pathways, sadly. One of the interim report suggestions or reflections from the ADHD taskforce was that we need to start thinking about ADHD as a needs-based requirement, rather than you don't have to have a diagnosis, you don't have to be able to prove you've got it. But if you require a quieter environment in order to be better at work, then maybe your employees should start thinking about it in those terms.
Because ultimately, it's about allowing people to be the best that they can be, isn't it? And we just want to allow, we want to enable people. We want everyone to flourish, wherever they come from, whatever is going on. Yeah, and it's about in school.
You know, when my daughter went to secondary school, we were all really excited to move to the area so she could be in the school and heard amazing things. And on the open day, the windows weren't open. It was really hot. And lasers were worn all over the spine, which was a sensory problem.
There was a lot of children in the same room. And my daughter was really overwhelmed. And I thought, I think we've got a bit of a problem here. And same for me.
Similarly, I worked in an open plan office, 100 people. If you can't control your environment and, you know, you just feel like a battery hand, there's noise, you can't filter out the stimuli, that's a problem. Why can't we just open a window, say that lasers are mandatory, you know, pop someone with ADHD in a corner of eye window with a tree as well, allow them to have loops and mesins and it not be seen as a bad thing. Why can't we make these little accommodations that are just kind?
You touched on our next misconception earlier when you talked about how it used to be a view that you grew out of ADHD. So, you know, that's another misconception, that you grow out of ADHD. What are some of the challenges for people who are either diagnosed later in life or worse, have ADHD as an adult and have got no idea? Yeah, sadly, it can just get worse.
So for me, as someone who's been through the school system, you know, in school, I struggled a wee bit, but afterwards I really found my feet and, you know, I've got undergraduate, master's, doctorate, still pushed all the way through because I had that hyper-focused ability. When you get married and you have kids and you've got dependents and then a full-time job and a high-powered position and massive responsibilities, you know, without medication, you're going to hit burnout. And I've hit burnout before in previous jobs and had to leave because I felt bad that someone might find out that I wasn't sleeping until 4am and then I couldn't get up at 9am and get into the office. I mean, I've left positions because I'm going to get found out.
I've got to, you know, think that I'm not good enough. And in reality, looking back, now that I'm on medication, which to me is no different really from having a cup of coffee in the morning to get my brain going. You know, people are falling out of jobs where they're really suited and doing really, really well, but they just need a little bit of support. So I think a lot of perimenopausal women have been hit because they've got children, they've got jobs, they're trying to manage the house and they're falling over with it.
And I think it hits men in very different ways. You know, they're more likely to have to provide for a family and feel the pressure on that and have to stay in employment and provide. And it's just really difficult. And how did you discover that you had ADHD?
Was it a child being diagnosed first or were you the first one to get a diagnosis? I was the first one. So I fell over last year. I was a senior lecturer at UWE at Bristol, leading the health psychology masters, which I absolutely loved.
But I had to drive there. And I knew sometimes if I started lectures at nine, that I'd have to be up at five to get there. And I thought, if I have a bad night and I can't sleep till 4am, I'm going to be a danger to the roads and I'm not going to be able to get there. And I'm not going to be able to take care of 170 students on a module.
And I just had to check out. And, you know, I wasn't keeping up with the laundry. I was so tired. I couldn't cook for my family in the evening, even though I wanted to.
My finances were a bit of a mess. And it just all overwhelmed me. It was like a tsunami of overwhelm. And it kind of resulted in chronic fatigue.
You know, I've got ADHD. I've got combined type. But it was presenting like I couldn't get off the sofa, which is weird because, you know, now it's treated. I feel very, very different.
Lindsay, could you just, if you can, try and describe that for someone who doesn't know, hasn't been through it. When you found out you had ADHD and you were given the medication, what was the difference like? So I'm really well informed, as you know. I'm a psychologist.
And it was still a surprise to me when the psychiatrist said, yes, you do have ADHD. And you're nine out of nine on the inattemptive spectrum, which is the highest. And the reason you're so exhausted is because your brain can't filter anything out. And it can't balance, keep yourself going.
It's either boom or bust. And you take medication for the first time and your brain just goes quiet. And you're like, hang on a minute. Normally, there's like a music track playing at low levels.
Sometimes it stops you from getting to sleep. Your brain's busy. You're thinking about the next artistic project and thinking about things I've got to do the next day. And you're literally laid there at 3 a.m.
in the morning and you're like, my goodness, I need to sleep. And then adds in that, the rest of the legs that comes with it, the fidgets. And you're like, why am I not functioning? And then you get the medication and it's like never having coffee before.
And you have, you know, a latte in the morning. Imagine if you've never experienced coffee and you're like, ooh, this is fun. And suddenly you can get stuff done. And the jobs get done.
And the tidying gets done. And you realise that it was never you being lazy or a lack of willing, but you couldn't do it. And that leads to guilt and shame. And I remember laying in bed in the morning at nine having only had like four hours sleep.
And my husband taking the kids to school again. And just feeling the guilt, like, why can I not get up and see my kids into school? And, you know, I love them more than anything. But why can't you just get out of bed?
What is wrong with you? And, you know, my unimates did say that I was just being lazy. You know, good. It's hardest when it comes to friends as well, isn't it?
It's hard, really hard. Yeah, so, you know, I must just be really lazy. That wasn't the case. Thank you for going through that.
I think it's so useful to hear, honestly, to hear somebody in your position who was able to say, you know what, this was so hard. And this medication, this diagnosis has been life-changing. And it leads us on to our next misconception, which I feel like you may have an emotional reaction to. ADHD is caused by poor parenting or a lack of discipline.
You know what's really terrible? I used to think that 10 years ago. Well, we must not be held responsible for the things we thought 10 years ago. Really, must we?
And you look at other people's kids and you're like, yeah, just a bit instructive, aren't you? And you think there's probably too much sugar in their diet. And you're like, yeah, there's poor discipline, isn't there? And you think, oh, my days.
I'm so wrong. But here's the thing. If ADHD was caused by poor discipline, then how come my eldest daughter was so hyperactive in the womb before she'd even been born, even has had any behavior modification by a parent, that she kept me awake every night between 2 a.m. and 4 a.m.
having a party in there? And even the staff when they did the scans were like, whoo, here's a wiggly one. My eldest was the same. That's really interesting.
Because I've never gone the parallel there. He broke my waters three weeks early because he was sick to me. And then my second daughter, I had to poke her to make sure that she was okay and continually petrified that there was something wrong with her. And she's just very chill in comparison.
Yeah. But isn't it dreadful that we were also agreeing with all those people who talked about their parents? Dreadful. Dreadful.
And that, obviously, that goes into the classroom. It goes into parenting groups. That misconception still exists in so many places. It definitely still exists in schools, I think.
It does. It does. And it tends to be incredibly classist. And I know families who are on benefits, supported housing, and you can see the ADHD that goes through the family.
But then I also see the affluent families who have autism and ADHD in their family. And you can see that it's in their families. But there are resources and structures and finances that are supporting up those people. They still have the same challenges.
Sam was literally saying this to me earlier today, weren't you? It's that ultimately, ADHD is fine if you've got resources. If you've got cash. Oh my gosh.
And a nice environment at home, completely. And obviously, that is all relative because it's how ties we can. Yeah, I don't know whether I was going to say fine, but certainly, certainly your environment and your opportunities and your resources are going to have an effect on how impactful your ADHD is on you, surely? Completely.
And how educated people are. We have talked a lot about how ADHD is underdiagnosed, not overdiagnosed. The NHS Task Force report came out recently, said exactly that. Our last misconception, though, ADHD medication is overprescribed and just a quick fix.
What would you say to that, Lindsay? False advertising, false news, false education. So here's the thing that I thought about ADHD medication before I took care. I thought that, potentially, parents were medicating their children to make them more placid so that they could cope with the children.
I know as an adult now, with ADHD and in the situation that I'm in, that it is akin to having a battery that's on low. And that medication is a stimulant medication. It doesn't suppress you. It doesn't calm you down.
That stimulates your brain up to... a level where your brain is calm and relaxed so if everyone else is running their batteries on 80 imagine that the adhd has got their batteries on five percent and they need a wiggle and they need stuff and they need haribo and caffeine to get up to any sort of a normal level where they can function so when you start to take medication you think wow this is how everyone else's function this is why everybody else is doing all right and i am falling over so i don't think it's a quick fix but the other thing is is that older adults who have adhd particularly intensive type that haven't been treated are showing signs of dementia those neural pathways that cortical plasticity the brain's way of regenerating like a muscle has not been flexing so you know there's a protective function i believe around caffeine and dementia and alzheimer's and i think we'll see people like me who are firing on all cylinders with medication and doing so much better into later life that unfortunately the generation before me were failed we've got a minute or two before we need to say goodbye is there a myth or a misconception that you think we haven't talked about today that you would like to lay to rest something you'd like to set the record straight on i had some time at the chelsea flower show that they were aware that adhd was genetic and they were trying to water it down in their family which i found extremely offensive and i just had to walk away my biggest concern is that when people are applying for jobs and they declare that they have a disability and they declare like i do that i have adhd they're not shortlisted not only they're not shortlisted you don't get an interview through the guaranteed scheme i feel that there's prejudice bias and a massive misconception that i wouldn't be able to do the job as well as a neurotypical but i feel that i'd be much better to do it do you have evidence that that's happening yes two institutions have projected my applications recently when i've met the person's specification that cannot be allowed to continue if i have that with my experience i'm really worried about the community yeah and i think it's important you know the least we can do is make sure we're talking about it and make sure that those conversations are happening and that people are trying to access the support and you know if it's happening in the workplace potentially the hr department as well yeah because people like us are pretty awesome to be honest that's a good place to leave isn't it thank you so much for joining us today you're welcome thank you for having me i really enjoyed myself and i hope it makes a little bit difference out there oh thank you to dr lindsey roberts for having the courage to share so much about her own personal experience as someone who has gone through what we've gone through which is getting an adhd type places absolutely and if this episode resonated with you we'd love it if you could rate review and share with someone you think might benefit from hearing this thank you so much once again for listening to your wrong about adhd we will be back with a new episode next week your wrong about adhd is made in association with apex content ventures this has been a global player original production production