This is a Global Player original podcast. He's obviously high-functioning because he is somebody who is a screenwriter. He's out there having meetings with lots of people, doing lots of different things. However, he definitely has sensory issues.
He wears noise-cancers and headphones, as you talked about during the day. It drives me absolutely like the flipping wall. Because if somebody knocks at the door with a parcel, for instance, it's always me that goes, oh, God, I'm going to cross because he can't hear it. And I need to have a little bit more understanding about that.
When Professor Nancy Doyle honed in on the whole sensory issue thing, being where you start, that really resonated. And I feel that we, as a society, need to make some changes. We need to be realising that these brilliant people, these wonderful people who bring lots of things, lots of advantages to the way we live, also have different needs to the society that we have created. And it's massively overwhelming for them.
Lights are too bright. There's too much noise. The crowds are too big. It's hard to live in this world and be autistic.
And we need to stop talking about that more. Yeah. I think what fascinated me was, it's very clear, I have ADHD, autism is something different, there are different conditions. But she was very, very big on the idea of taking a holistic approach and treating people's symptoms.
It really struck me. As journalists, what we do is we go, right, this is this. Tell me about this. This is this.
Tell me about this. What she was doing is you look at an individual and you treat the symptoms and you see what support they need. The reason it resonated with me, and this is about ADHD, this isn't really about autism, is because what how do I, I'm trying to sort of take the bits of their ADHD and put them in another box and get rid of them, rather than looking at myself and saying, this is me, this is how I live my life. And okay, that's not, you know, autism specific, I've got ADHD, but it's a way of looking at ourselves as neurodivergent, as these are the needs that I have in life, rather than this is my condition that I've got to treat and get rid of.
And I know that that's a sort of light bulb that keeps going off for me. That's kind of what I've been saying to you. I know, I know. That's not, which is, these are gifts in lots of ways.
Yes, also challenges, but gifts. And take off the straitjacket. I mean, literally, take off the straitjacket and embrace who you are and what you bring, and what is lovely about you, and allow yourself to be a bit more you, rather than seeing that as a negative or a drawback and trying to scrub yourself clean. True, and I accept that, and that is, you know, something that I'm working on.
However, I think what you said there and what Nancy said very clearly is, what we are in a world isn't set up for neurodiversity, and so you are still having to find ways to manage. And, you know, there are people who have traits of autism, there are people who have traits of ADHD, that are trying to work out where they fit in the world, and... But that's the wrong way round. That's the wrong way round.
Why should they be trying to work out where they fit in the world? The world doesn't allow them to be themselves. Therefore, shouldn't we, especially you and me sitting here with the privilege that we've got of this podcast, shouldn't you and I be talking about how we change the world to enable those people to be themselves? It's the wrong way round.
We shouldn't have to fit in, Sam. We should be allowed to be us, and the world should accept that. And that should be the same for any kind of disability, any hidden disability or visible disability. The world should move to incorporate us.
We have stuff to give, the stuff that we get to do differently and think differently about because of who we are and what we have. And that should be embraced and celebrated, and the world should... Look at... Right, here's an example.
Sorry, I'm now... Sorry, I'm so close. I like it. When you talked about wearing a school uniform when you were a kid, right, and how you really struggled with the feeling on your neck and the tie, right, we talked about that.
I experienced that with my own son who went off to a school that had a uniform, and I'm glad to say that their attitude to uniform was hilarious in that it was quite relaxed. They found the fact that he sort of tied his tie in a funny way quite funny, and they sort of giggled about it. What they didn't do was what happened 20 years ago, 40 years ago, where you'd be sent to the headmaster's office because your tie wasn't tied correctly or your uniform looked scrappy. They just, they embraced it.
His shirt tails were always hanging out. They found that hilarious. And, you know, they saw it as a reflection of his personality, which is a bit scruffy, and he doesn't really pay attention to his appearance, but he's got a brain, and he's funny, and he's kind, and he's loyal. He's got other stuff going on.
Does it matter that he didn't tuck his shirt in? No, and the pettiness of school is the thing that, you know, still sticks with me to this day as an adult. However, and this is a conversation that we both return to because we both feel quite strong about it, we don't live in a perfect world, which is why I think it's so important to have the conversations like we had with the professor, with Nancy Doyle, about raising awareness about neurodiversity. Actually, I don't know very much about autism.
I think it's so important, and you touched on this in the conversation, not to be saying, well, I'm a bit ADHD, but everyone's a bit autistic. Actually recognising that we need to understand autism a bit more. We need to understand ADHD more. We need to understand dyslexia more.
We need to understand what those conditions are, and we need to raise awareness about them so that we can move to a place where life is easier for people who are neurodiverse. We're not there yet. That's why we need to keep having these conversations. And wasn't it fascinating what she said about neuroimaging?
You know, when we talk about that question, isn't everyone a little bit autistic or a little bit ADHD? Our brains reflect differently when they take pictures of them. But that autistic brains map onto ADHD brains all the other way around. So whatever it is that we are doing differently, and in whatever ways that we are different, it looks the same when you take a picture of our brains on a neuroimager.
And I found that really fascinating, that our differences are sort of the same, but the symptoms come out differently. And I've always found it fascinating that ADHD people tend to find safety in people who might be autistic. And I definitely think that about my relationship with my husband, because we bring different things. And I've seen lots of other relationships seem to follow the same kind of pattern.
And it is about what Nancy said about those different skills that we bring when she talks about genius lines and about how they allow those different skills to come to the fore and for other people to fill in behind if there are any weaknesses. That's kind of how I feel our relationship works. You know, there are things I can do that my husband can't, and vice versa. I mean, I've talked about those at length, the things my husband does on my behalf.
But these seem to be kind of symbiotic relationships almost, autistic and ADHD. You know, even if they don't overlap, these are friendships that seem to work very, very well together. But do you know what? It's made me think, as someone who is trying to raise awareness about ADHD and wants people to understand ADHD, that actually I've got a responsibility to go out there and find out a bit more about autism, you know, actually to find out a bit more and to try and understand it.
And talking about making a world which is more neurodivergent-friendly, Nancy's chief science officer at Genius Within, she founded it. This is a neurodivergent-led and owned business. It helps neurodivergent people access their inner genius and be their best at work. The more there are people like her creating, you know, businesses like that that are trying to encourage people and harness the power of neurodivergence, that's where we're going to see a change.
You can't help but recognise or notice that those businesses, those companies that have embraced neurodivergence, I'm thinking about someone like Google, I'm thinking about, you know, Facebook, all these kind of, you know, these cool tech road companies where they've got table tennis tables in the office and where they have beanbags when they have their meetings and, you know, they have breakout spaces. What they have essentially done is embraced those people who have different ways of working. And look at the successes that they have seen in productivity and the kind of people they're bringing into those workspaces. These are, it makes good business to think like that.
So for those, what I always consider those sort of brown, those grey corporates that still insist on the long oval table that people sit around for two hours and only one person can speak at a time, they are holding themselves back because they're keeping people like us out. I couldn't work in a company like that. I couldn't sit in a business meeting for two hours and do that. And so all of that neurodivergence, all of that different way of thinking is being kept out of that room.
And that's bound to affect their productivity. Yeah, it's how do we get people who are neurodivergent into the workplace, into the right place and harness those abilities. There's so much to think about. Do you know what makes me think?
I think we should get Professor Mantid all back and talk to her again in the future. Absolutely. It was a mind-blowing conversation. I would love to talk to her about more.
That's everything for today. You can listen and subscribe to You're Wrong About ADHD on Global Player or wherever you keep podcasts. Thanks for listening. See you next time.
This is a Global Player original podcast.