Bringing Dev Mode to Figma

This week on the change that we're joined by Emile Shalondar from Figma talking about bringing Devmo to Figma This is their new workspace in Figma that's designed to bring developers and designers to the same tool And the question they're trying to answer is how do you create a home for developers in a design tool? We go way back to a mail startup that was acquired by Figma called Visley how we iterated to here from 20 years ago Think back to PSD's to HTML what they did to build Dev mode what they're doing around cogent the popularity of design systems And what it takes to go from zero to dev mode a big Thank you to our friends and our partners at Fastly and Fly this podcast got you fast because Fastly is super fast globally Check them out at Fastly.com and our friends at Fly will help you put your app and your database closer users all of the world Check them out at fly.io What's up friends this episode is brought to you by our friends at Neon serverless Postgres is exciting and we're excited I'm here with Nikita Shenganoff co-founder and CEO of Neon So Nikita one thing on the firm believer in is when you make a product give them what they want And one thing I know is developers want Postgres they want it managed and they want serverless. So you're on the front lines Tell me what you're here for developers. What are you here for developers about Postgres managed and being serverless So what we hear from developers is the first bar resonates.

Absolutely. They want Postgres. They want it managed The serverless bit is 100% resonating with what people want They sometimes are skeptical like is my workload going to run well on your serverless offering? Are you gonna charge me 10 times as much for serverless that I'm getting for provision?

Those are like the skepticism that we're seeing and then people are trying and they've seen the bill arriving at the end of the month And like well, this is strictly better. The other thing that is resonating incredibly well is Participating in the software development lifecycle. What that means is you use databases in two modes One mode is you're running your app and the other mode is you're building your app and then you go and switch between the two all the time because you are, you know, you're deploying all the time and there's a Specific, you know, part when you just like building out of your application from zero to one And then you push the application into production and then they keep iterating on the application When you think about what a modern deploy to production looks like it's typically some sort of tie-in into GitHub, right? you're creating the branch and then you're developing your feature and then you're sending a PR and then that goes through a pipeline and then you're On GitHub actions or you're running GitLab for CI CD and eventually this whole thing drops into a deploy into production So database are terrible at this today and the end is charging full speed into participating in the software development lifecycle world What that looks like is me and supports branches.

So that's the enabling teacher get supports branches me and supports branches Internally because we built me and we build our own proprietary and what I mean by proprietary is built-in house You know, there's all these actually open source But it's built-in house to support copy and ride branching for the browser's database And we run and manage that storage subsystem ourselves in the cloud anybody can read it You know, it's all in GitHub under me on database repo and it's quite popular They're like over 10,000 stars on it and stuff like that. This is the enabling technology. It supports branches The moment it supports branches It's trivial to take your production environment and clone it and now you have a developer environment and because it's serverless You're not cloning something that costs you a lot of money and imagining for a second that every developer cloned something that costs You're a lot of money in a large team. That is unthinkable, right?

Because you will have a hundred copies of a very expensive production database But because of this copy and write and compute is scalable So now a hundred copies that you're not using you're only using them for development They actually don't cost you that much as so now you can arrive into the world where your database participates in the software development lifecycle And every developer can have a copy of your production environments for their testing for their feature development people want to merge That's data or at least schema back in into production people want to mask PII data People want to reset branches to a particular point in time of the parent branch of the production branch or the current point in time Like against the head of that branch all our top customers use branches every day I think it's what makes neon modern. It turns a database into a URL and it turns that URL to a similar URL to that of GitHub You're all you can send this URL to a friend. You can branch it You can create a preview environment. You can have that stage eight and you're living this iterative mode of building applications Okay, go to neon.tech Learn more and get started get on-demand scalability bottomless storage and data branching one more time.

That's neon.tech All right, we're here with a meal from big money. Welcome to the show. Thank you so much Happy to have you pretty cool stuff. You've been working on over there dev mode Which is maybe it's a new product from maybe it's a new direction We'll dig into all of that But you didn't start there you started as Visley and ended up as dev mode You want to give us a brief rundown of the history of your company and joining the victim team?

Yeah, sure So I can rewind it like before basically as well. I think that's interesting like I mean for context I started a company Visley we were like max out at like nine folks went through our combinator kind of try to build out Design tool specifically for developers for a while and eventually joined Figmark a couple years ago and have been working on dev Since and I've launched that since then so that's kind of the very very short kind of gist of it But something back a bit like really ever since I started coding or started getting to software which was late compared to like a lot of folks It really got into it was like 20 or whatever 19 20 wasn't one of those 13 year old script kitties So like I've had a long background or I guess not that long But I'm kind of thought my whole time being involved in software always been really focused on kind of the design how things are built Why things are built and really jumping between design and engineering as software engineering on a daily basis and comes And really every kind of thing I've worked on since then has been really focused on bridging this gap between design development in various ways And you know have had experiences working our product teams were kind of the designers and the developers were this took this fluid shape Where it was really kind of worked as one crazy unit as opposed to kind of two salad teams or whatever And that's really where my background comes from so after having been out a few places But most recently at meta for three years mostly working on on open source like layout engines and mobile infrastructure things like that As well as developer tooling I felt like I want to take kind of the next step and I thought back to like this thing that I've been thinking about for ages Which is really getting designers and developers to work more closely together and work as one cohesive unit Because I think that has always in my experience led to just the best products being built on the most thoughtful products The teams that have executed most quickly They've kind of been these teams that work as one cohesive unit and I want to build software to enable more teams to work easily Work as such so that's really where this we started trying to enable this so started this company with with a friend of mine at the time That friend is also still at Vigma and yeah We spent a few years basically trying to re-envision what a design tool would look like if it was built for developers from the ground up So really kind of a react based design tool that everything every object every layer every pixel was a react component behind the scenes Or rather we even we had it we had big ambitions, which I think is always good So it wasn't actually even a react component behind the scenes It was this kind of abstract notion of a renderable object that Initially translated to react but we'd also built a cross-platform kind of high-performance flexbox engine So we could translate this stuff to iOS and Android and what have you in the future as well But really kind of at the core was a design tool where every kind of interaction or action you took translated to a line of code I think it's interesting to see this world of development that you guys I hear you show your story It's just think of like we're trying to build products, right? We're trying to be front-end is we're trying to be engineers and work together But then we're also building the tooling that allows us to build along the way and I come from a generation where like CSS was brand new basically, right? We were still designing inside a Photoshop.

We were still doing sliding doors to do different things with tabs and CSS We did not have rounded things. We did not have all these cool things that are out there and web standards now It's interesting to see how the iteration is taking place to get to this dev mode world Where finally have a design tool that does have definitely enablements and it may not still be perfect But it's so much better than we were right like every iteration there is sort of like very very iterative because we're building products But also inventing and reestablishing and iterating on the standards to get us there and the tooling and products like yours and Fig Might have allowed designers and devs to play very well together Yeah, I mean I think it's interesting thinking about this like you said kind of in a historical context I think these the idea of visual tools to kind of augment front-end development has been around forever I think since we built Graphical user interfaces a notion of kind of a graphical user interface to help you build Graphical user interfaces has been a thing whether it's kind of like interface builder in the 80s from from next and then later Apple or tools for Adobe or what have you right like this has always been a thing and I mean it's in one way It's pretty obvious like it's easier to build a visual thing visually for the most part But this is actually gone I think harder to execute on over time because the requirements have changed right so let's say like looking back at him Like you were talking about like CSS is like just kind of becoming a thing back in those days like Responsive design wasn't a thing is like now. It's 960 pixels of whatever 7.8 Right, and that's it and actually like you wouldn't have any CSS for styling right you use like JPEGs as backgrounds And if a hover effect was like switching to a different JPEG if you can have a hover effect, right? So in a way it was very much like with the technology and the requirements at the time It was actually much much easier to go straight from like design to functioning application back in that day It was literally just like JPEGs on a webpage like wrong to be laid out with a fixed kind of design So I think like we still believe heavily in this kind of notion of like I think like as front-end developers building graphical software Like working with a graphical tool to help us build a graphical software is like kind of abstract notions like really helpful But we can't kind of emulate what we had 20 years ago because that was just built for a different time, right?

And now we have to think about kind of the constraints we have now and build different kind of software that helps modern front-end involvement Even though we sometimes think back to where I wish it was like 20 years ago in many ways simpler times, but things are better now I think simpler, yes, I mean even like PSD to HTML like that terminology, right? Like that's oh, yeah, that's comical right like there was companies that were born to do that Yeah, whole industries right and you would slice inside a Photoshop Or I think even at the time there was a whole different tool that was not photoshopped That was acquired by Macromedia or Adobe acquired Macromedia had this other tool that was I think it was called even That's been that long ago I never haven't debated somebody when CSS came out like don't use CSS at stupid tape You can do that with tables while I do that with CSS You know, I mean like you have this pushback of the new thing and the change and but it was simpler in some ways In some ways, yeah, but it's still it boggles my mind that we would and I did this but not for web But for iOS but boggles my mind that we used to use a a tool for like retouching like Photography to design UI, right? It reminds me of you know, how people use Excel for literally everything like every Excel feature is like a startup itself I don't know. I feel like it's by any means necessary.

Yeah, yeah for sure It's kind of like the the binding is necessary aspect I think that's the unleashed we wanted to do this new thing on the web so badly that we use tools that were not designed for the job And we force the tool to change and I guess ultimately, you know the merger of the world of Adobe I mean like that long transcendence of a timeline is just you couldn't have predicted it necessarily But we forced it by by means of just using the tools that we had so a long time ago I helped Groove Shark, which was an old music streaming app slash service rewrite their flash app in HTML 5 This is when HTML 5 was like burgeoning and they always had great design I mean that was one of their things like the design was slick and nice and I met the lead designer of Groove Shark and Very talented guy. He did all of his design work. I'm literally all of it in keynote apple keynote I mean Apple used to design their stuff in opportunity now like I asked him like isn't this like a PowerPoint replacement like slideshow thing? He's like yeah, but it's a great design tool And so he like took keynote and he handed me a keynote and I was supposed to implement that from there I was actually was just as easy or painful as Photoshop I mean I had keynote installed already so at least I had that going for me a lot of developers have photoshop licenses or not At least it was vector based.

Yeah, exactly is vector based But it speaks to this real inefficiency that exists in the world of the collaboration bit Which you guys are very much building tools right in that area where you can lose so much time and money in those handoffs If they even are handoffs, so there's many different ways of doing this if you think about a software product You have kind of the product owner, right? This is the person who decides the direction the features etc You have the designer and you have the developer these as roles historically I think the most successful and quickest moving orgs are when those three things work very well together or sometimes are inhabited by a single person right like a one person unicorn who can think it up design it develop it very successful But when you have teams doing those things there's so many different ways of managing the collaboration between three and you can and there's so Many bad ways to do it in fact We can reminisce about some of the bad ways when you had to go hire a company to like take your PSD and turn it into HTML And then you go hire a different company to take your HTML and turn it into a working web application It really struggles to be able to iterate when you have like silo silo silo You know and then knowledge transfer fails and so the person actually said this color but the developer thought they said that color Yeah, and I think that that's I mean that's fundamental to fit well as a company and as a product But also to how we when we started developing dev mode I mean we really wanted to think through dev mode from first principles, right? So everything was on the table like should dev mobile be a totally separate product or should it be kind of A new file with the config malware or should it be a like a mode which is what we eventually landed on right? But what we thought through with all of this was really back to this like a piece of communication and collaboration, right?

We know that what really matters and for companies to build better products and build those products faster Well, we're also maintaining a high quality more was really about communication and like latency and communication Right, so for us it was like it's really obvious that no developers designers pms or how even like lawyers Be in the same spot and collaborate live in real time together Because otherwise you get asymmetry and information or miscommunication or or you get things where somebody doesn't learn about information until like three days before launch And then you either need a scramble or most likely you're delaying launch per like a quarter or whatever So making sure like everybody's on the same page is looking at the same thing and knows the same information is really key to to great collaboration and building great products quickly and I don't think it can be overstated just how much time and money you can save by like greasing those skids because so much of the fails in software development process is simply Inefficiencies in our collaboration practices And a lot of times we're trying to just make it up on our own I've done a lot of small contract work where I'm working with different teams different clients And so I had like iterations on how many different ways you can collaborate around a software project and so many of us are just making it up as we go along And if you're not familiar with that one There's just so many ways that you can waste time waste money waste effort on stuff That doesn't matter and so yeah, if you can bring everybody the table at the same place and get them collaborating there and provide tooling And resources for that to be effective for everybody then that's a big win So when you started dev mode so you join Figma to build dev mode is that fair to say like Visley was already building kind of a thing Area tells how that worked out. Yeah, so I mean just finishing up with the thought on the communication front Which I think kind of segues into the next thing you're asking This is something like Figma has been thinking about since day one, right? This is the reason Figma is a URL in a web app because yes You can get your whole design team to like install some design software or even that is like hard sometimes But let's imagine you can do that It's really hard to get say a random stakeholder or engineer on the team to install this big design software and like create an account Whatever just to kind of quickly view a prototype, right? So having that as a URL where anybody can just load it up quickly and see what they need to see That's really the foundation of what Figma started for because we always knew that I say we like Dylan In fact, it started by way before kind of I joined always knew that like design is a process that really involves more than designers, right?

Everybody needs to be part of it. Whether you're PM engineer or marketing or Really anybody who even touches any aspect of the product needs to be part of that design process And we want to make that occur to as many people as possible to as easily as possible come in there So the notion of like design needs to accommodate for developers while for hand off engineering collaboration That's something that Figma has been really been thinking about since day one So the reason we joined Figma is really to deepen the investment in this rather than start it up from scratch It's really to deepen that investment in developer collaboration. So I mean realistically like we've been running this like four I want to say two years and a half. I can't remember at this point.

It's been a while something like that and yeah We were we had a product. We had an beta. We had we didn't have a lot of it We had to sell the hundred users but like enough to get feedback but the feedback we were getting was like really good But from like indie developers right developers who did both design and development and they really liked it But we just like basically wasn't possible for us to get into any larger team because you know designers didn't like the tool It's just like fair enough We really set up to develop a kind of a great design tool for engineers and that is what we built But at larger companies like you need to bring design into it as well, right? And to agree kind of Figma was kind of in the same spot with the opposite spot really right and and we were using Figma So we knew about Figma we loved Figma, but Figma was a tool of just like absolutely loved by designers, right?

But engineers were like I mean it's better than Photoshop for like I don't even stop Photoshop, right? So it's better than that, but they weren't in love with it and they didn't see it as a daily use tool necessarily So that's the audience we were really trying to serve and and again Figma had been investing in developer kind of developers as a cohort But but I started talking to Dylan and like really we wanted the same end goal, right? So it just felt natural to come in and boost their investment and kind of the space and that's what we've been doing So we came in we try to figure out how to best really serve this audience We actually started with something that's not definite at all the first project We took on coming in was we called it auto layout v4 3 I don't know one of the versions the next version of auto layout Which is Figma's kind of flux box in in the design tool because we knew from talking to users I was also just like knowing from ourselves that I mean if you get handed a design and it's all absolutely positioned It's gonna take you a lot longer to translate that to code Then if it's using something you can relate to like Xbox and the fact is that auto layout was loved by a lot of designers but it had a high barrier of entry so it was like hard to like start using and There were just a lot of cases it couldn't handle where you had to like opt out and just absolutely position stuff So all of this led to relatively speaking low usage of auto layout So we really want to solve this problem for designers so that they were excited and could use auto layout for more things And thus kind of improve the development of things are kind of a second-order impact on developers And once we get completed that we shifted over to building this entirely separate space a dedicated space within Figma for developers We call dev mode and it's end up actually not being a separate tool or anything necessarily It's more like a different tool set so you're viewing the same content the same canvas in Figma We're reviewing it from a lens of a developer So we change out the whole tool set we change out the left and right panels We make everything like optimized for a developer as a user which honey existed in Figma before and allowed us to really make Different trade-offs and optimizations where previously we might say oh, that's a developer tool So let's put it behind the sub menu. We now had an interface where we could say no Let's make it like the biggest thing on the screen, right?

Which is a big difference for users What's up friends? I'm here with one of our good friends for Ross a book DJ for Ross is the founder and CEO of socket You can find them at socket.dev secure your supply chain ship the confidence, but for Ross I have a question for you What's the problem? What security concerns developers face when consuming open source dependencies? What does socket do to solve these problems?

So the problem that socket solves is when a developer is choosing a package there's so much potential information they could look at right? I mean at the end of the day they're trying to get a job done, right? There's a feature they want to implement they want to solve a problem So they go and find a package that looks like it might be a promising solution Maybe they check to see that it has an open source license that has good docs Maybe they check the number of downloads or GitHub stars But most developers don't really go beyond that and if you think about what it means to use a good package to find it To use a good open source dependency. We care about a lot of other things too, right?

We care about who is the maintainer is this thing well maintained from a security perspective We care about does this thing have known vulnerabilities does it do weird things? Maybe it takes your environment variables and sends them off to the network, you know, meaning it's gonna take your your IPs Your tokens that would be bad. The unfortunate thing is that today most developers who are choosing packages and going about their day They're not looking for that type of stuff It's not really reasonable to expect a developer to go and open up every single one of their dependencies and read every line of code Not to mention that the average NPM package has 79 additional dependencies that it brings in So you're talking about just you know thousands and thousands of lines of code and so we do that work for the developer So we go out we fully analyze every piece of their dependencies You know every one of those lines of code and we look for strange things we look for those risks that they're not gonna have time to look for So we'll find, you know, we detect all kinds of attacks and kinds of malware and Vulnerabilities and those dependencies and we bring them to the developer and help them when they're at that moment of choosing a package Okay, that's good. So what's the install process?

What's the getting started socket super easy to get started with? So our whole team is made up of developers and super developer friendly We got tired of using security tools that send a ton of alerts and we're hard to configure and just kind of noisy And so we built socket to fix all those problems So we have all the typical integrations you'd expect a CLI a github app an API all that good stuff But most of our users use socket through the github app and it's a really fast install couple clicks You get it going and it monitors all your pull requests and you can get an accurate and kind of in-depth analysis of all your dependencies Really high signal to noise, you know, it doesn't just cover vulnerabilities. It's actually about the full picture of dependency risk and quality Right, so we help you make better decisions about dependencies that you're using directly in the pull request work flow directly where you're spending your time as a developer You know whether you're managing a small project or a large application with thousands of dependencies socket has you covered and it's pretty simple to use It's really not a complicated tool. Very cool.

The next step is to go to socket.dev Install the github app or book demo either works for us against socket.dev. That's s-o-c-k-e-t.dev So bring us from there to dev mode as it exists today So you have this blog post out how we built dev mode. There was a lot of user research There was a lot of conversations This seems like maybe a not so hard problem to solve in the small But when you try to solve it for like disparate teams around the world working in different ways different organization sizes All of a sudden I get very overwhelmed just thinking about the task in front of you So you landed on this mode, which is a way of thinking but that wasn't where you started Can you want to kind of take us a little bit on the journey some of the conversations and how you ended up landing on what you landed on so far? Yeah, it's a great question and I can spend hours on this so I'll try not to But I think this is the correct of it.

I think we're first of all, we're really happy where we've landed with dev mode We're hearing from customers. They're also really happy with it It's really kind of accelerating teams in the way we want to accelerate them that being said There's also like so much left to do and there's definitely parts of it that I'm still embarrassed of but that's because kind of perfectionist at heart And we're working hard to and make it even better as we go along right but the thing that makes designing for for dev mode hard is that we're designing a new product At a large scale right so we're designing it for all of the existing users and they have very different ways of working You're like large employee-based bank versus like two-person fintech startup to nobody's surprise They work differently right and because they need to work differently. They have different processes They have just different resources and so forth So designing a product from scratch that works for this breath of people is really hard Most products are not designed like that right as a startup you don't have any users So you start with designing for kind of one small cohort right and make it great for them And then you build up over time and over time that complexity grows with the product and you can serve more users But for us we really had to serve all our users day one So we had to take an approach which scaled between like two all those different kinds of customers So that's how we landed or like that was in the back of our heads as we were designing dev mode So that's why we have such a strong focus on on like customizability Extensions and plugins is a huge part of dev mode where any user can go in and say that No, I'm like an iOS developer who still writes Objective-C and I want to see like code hints for that And like you can get that I think there's a lot of plugins so I think that exists But basically you can customize it to like show you the kind of information you want to show You can show the documentation you want to show for whatever design system you're using And so forth so customizability was really kind of a main angle And another thing kept thinking about was this kind of concept of making dev mode really feel like a home for developers Making it feel like this was built for me as a developer And not like a developer feature slapped onto a tool for designers right We really want to encourage developers to really like spend time here and really Not just to spend time to like boost metrics right In many ways we actually want developers like get out of fake mess quickly as possible And get back to coding that's like a goal of ours But we want the time they spend in fake much to be productive Rather than being kind of you know just searching and hunting for the right values So this is kind of some of the I guess some of the thinking behind the design of dev mode And in the path we took to get to where we are today is I mean along it's circular It's winding we went back and forth many many times right But the highlights I would say is that it started with a huge focus on translating designs automatically to code This was a big focus in the beginning or a big hypothesis in the beginning I would say Which we kind of quickly built out it was it's actually really cool We can talk about why it didn't work but but it was it was really cool It looked like imagine chrome dev tools You basically had like a code split screen like half of it was code half It was designed it was like you're inspecting the designing like seeing the HTML for it right Super cool for me right perspective when we actually put in front of customers it didn't work at all right Because that code is I mean it's just like not what they the code they needed or right You know designers are not spending time getting the light right layer structure or like div structure for their designs Right, it's not necessarily using the correct abstractions you want or There's a million problems here that that make this just like not work well And in many ways also like go too deep on the design and it easily lifted out I would say properties of the design that were unintentional right So the beauty with kind of design is just kind of a picture that you can click on Is that like you don't see the unnecessary details Like if a thing is wrapped in like seven empty groups or whatever You don't notice that you don't care really But if you're like really exposed to the underlying what that would translate to encode Now it starts exposing those kind of details And makes them look important in a way that they definitely aren't And actually distracts you from the most important aspects of the design and the intentionality there So for all those reasons like it didn't actually work So we pivoted away from that and tried a number of different other things And throughout this like constantly just talk to users and across all sizes of companies And just to figure out kind of what the most important aspects were The larger problem statement we landed on was like and this is gonna sound silly But everybody we talked to wanted to build better products faster But like this is hard and especially like at a scaling company It's really hard to keep velocity high and quality high So what we really just did was we talked to a lot of these customers Especially kind of post 100 employees Because before then like if you're like 30 people Quality of velocity is pretty high and it's easy to keep high But as you grow it can get harder And the things we noticed were I'd say three buckets that I like to think about One is kind of touched on this with the collaboration piece earlier But the first is like why you can't build great products fast Is typically like organizational alignment problems And this can be just like you know people have different opinions But it can be also just purely kind of informational problems Which we see a lot Which is I mean one really simple example is Designers and developers would have a different tool Right you design in one place and you like hand off in another place And because there's this silo of information Now you have like duplicated information in two places Developers would sometimes you know build the wrong thing Because a designer forgot text from the latest version And you have designer developer think they're building the same thing But they don't notice it until like two days before he's gonna ship And then people get stressed right Or another classic example is Engineers are working off of JIRA Or some other tool right There's nothing to do with JIRA And some PM or designer engineer has basically created a bunch of JIRA issues That specked out the product And included screenshots of everything to build But nobody thinks to update those screenshots or those tasks When the designs change right And again people will be building different things Because you've siloed the information And you basically have forked the information right So that's really something we want to resolve The second bucket of like problems Again hindering folks from moving fast and building great products Was more around just maintaining product quality As an organization grows and scales And that it can be really hard to stay on top of this And our favorite and best tool for this is really design systems We think that's kind of the tool most companies Employed to kind of scale quality But the problem we heard from a lot of customers is like Yes they have a robust design system But nobody uses it Or people use it wrong or all these things Right so we really wanted to make sure that these companies Who've invested in design systems Actually that investment is worth it And we want to really make sure that that really helps them Increase that product quality And the third bucket which we heard from companies that Again wanted to like everybody else ship better products faster Was that dev efficiency was just hard to keep high as they scaled And this mostly came down to just a lot of like Small day-to-day paper cuts Everything from like compile times to what have you That would just make their engineering orgs like move slowly And in the context of Figma we would hear things like It talked about like Oh Figma is like complex to learn as a first time user Because it's like especially as a developer Because it's kind of been designed for designers Or a really classic one is that Developers would get like a version two or version three of a design And they would literally spend a day Just like playing the old game of like Find five differences between two pictures And it's like wait what has changed here And try to like construct a change log manually And then like transfer that to a task tool or whatever All these like kind of repetitive work That just like slow engineers down to you today So those were kind of the three buckets of problems We saw hindering companies to build better products fast And that's what we kept top of mind as We were building dev mode really And again this goes back to the conversation we had earlier Of like for that org alignment piece Really starts with getting everybody to just talk And like use the same tool and be in the same space And that's why we built dev mode as a mode within Figma design Right? And we also knew we needed to build tools within dev mode for like Clear communication as well To like have those clear respects Be aligned on like what to build So you're actually building the same thing And that's where we have things like Designers new marketing is ready for dev Or they can like annotate details of the design And really spec it out And then that last piece was like Really about making sure that information is in sync Between kind of all the different silos of information And that's where like our partnership with all Point out like Atlassian here Because we have a really deep partnership with them But also working with like linear And the story back in other companies But we really make sure to like With the Atlassian partnership Make sure that like Jira is up to date with dev mode So you can like create Jira tickets within dev mode And then automatically like connect them via link And now you don't need to like think about Like having information in two places And worry about that You can work wherever you you need to work And get the information you want to make And that's ensured to be up to date basically So that's really like How we've been thinking about dev mode And how we talk about the product quality piece And the dev efficiency piece as well But that's generally how I see kind of the Problems that we're trying to solve I just can't believe how much How much thing he goes into like building such a tool You can't just make a code gen And make it work You can't just push the magic I guess in the way You can't push magic but That's kind of what you've done in a way But all the iteration takes it to make this work Oh and I'll tell you While we can't build code gen and it just works We also can't like remove code gen and it just works Because like our customers love the code gen we have And then others find it less use one Like we have to find a way to balance that in a data way Yeah It is smart though to do the toggle back and forth between It's because you could have made it a whole different part As you mentioned But making it in the Figma world And not making it some sort of bifurcated over here thing It's really the great invitation Like you mentioned before The day one of Figma And I want to go back to the beginning necessarily But to be a URL It's the great invitation And now this is still the same great invitation that Figma was because you didn't have to install something You didn't have to do all this Set up like a developer might do To build out their dev You know their dev environment It's not like that at all It's not a design environment It's just go here And if you're in the engineering of dev space You can flip between the modes And really just enjoy the direction that Figma is taking What it means to design and to develop for the web Yeah for sure And I mean I'm excited about the Directions we're also taking this to make it feel Even better and more seamless for developers And this is early days But we've in the past six months integrated with Visual Studio Code as well Where you can actually bring up dev mode specifically In VS Code And have your designs and codes side by side And it's not like I think that's interesting And it like limits context switching But they're really really Exciting part And we're just like starting to touch on the possibilities Here But it's how Figma for VS Code actually Interacts between the code and the Figma file Where you can do things like You're in a React component And you're looking at a design for that component And you can link those together So later on If you're browsing the code And you see a component And you're wondering Is this design correct?

You can like Knock a man fuck on it But basically you can click in the gutter And it opens up the exact Figma design Source of truth for that from your designer You can double check that Yep, okay this looks correct Or if you have a new design for something new up We actually integrate with the like Autocomplete of VS Code So if you start writing CSS Instead of like Co-pilot suggesting random colors Right? We're actually suggesting just colors And spacing values That come from your design file So it's like Feels like a super smart Co-pilot That knows exactly about your design And still early days But I'm really excited about the potential there That's awesome Going back to the code gen bit It seems like people love it People hate it Sometimes it delivers Sometimes it doesn't Because of the intricacies that you described earlier Where the designer is just thinking visually And they're just doing what they need to do In order to get things to group, etc And now we have these layers and layers and etc And sometimes the code isn't just there Good enough Are you continuing down that path though? Because I imagine as a developer If I did have the button that says Take this and turn it into code That I would write That for me is sort of Would be the end goal I mean obviously the other stuff is nice as well If I could get that And not have Let's just say like misaligned code That I would actually write Then you guys would be like Just print money for lack of it or where Like wouldn't that be Like everybody would sign up at that point So are you still Are you doing both like okay We need alignment tools We need efficiency tools We need to make sure people are using the design system So integrating in developers Workflows All that stuff needs to continue With dev mode But if the code gen Realize that these Extra components are worthless And just throw them out Right and run the way I would In the first place Then that could be That could be the solution Like the end game Are you still going on that path as well? Yeah I agree Like that as an end state Is super interesting We'll see when Slash if we can get there Right?

Or is it probably a when Or then an if Right like if you Hundred years Whatever I don't know Or two years Who knows How far Well how far does it feel More like a hundred than two Like you've been working on it So you would know better I think there's a lot of There's a lot of problems With getting incorrect Right But I think It's very doable for us To make it a lot better Than what it is today So instead of Kind of guessing at When we'll have this Perfect solution Because I don't know But I'll talk a bit more About how we're thinking About the next steps here So what we have today Is I mean out of the box You can choose if you want to Get some code for Like CSS with UI Or a japan composer android And that gives you I think it's a reasonable hint And how to influence stuff Personally I use it a ton For box shadows Because I never remember This in text for box shadow Or gradients Or whatever Right? It's super nice To quickly get started And it's like Yes I'm not going to commit It directly to GitHub Like that's not the point And then there's like great plug-ins I can give you like tailwind code Or give you like full-on Like react code for the whole Design Again like Don't commit it straight away But this is like a great starting Point to get you started quicker Right? I think what we're Interested in next building And we're just trying to think About this But it's really a focus on design Systems So if you are using design systems Which a lot of customers Or customers or companies in general Are doing today Across both code and Figment to be clear Then if you click on a button You don't want it to say DIV in a class name Right? You want it to use My button component Imported from my design system So we want to make that work And we think we have a path to get there In the near term And we're exploring a few ideas And I don't have anything specific to share there But I can say the early explorations here Are really exciting And that's a place we can get to Fairly soon And then I think it becomes More problematic if it's like Here's a net new design For a website Please code it up like I would have coded it up I think that's much further off Although that's also Much less common Usually it's like Build this thing Using components we already have And developers just kind of want To be pointed at What components to use Where they exist in the code base Like where to import them from And like Maybe some sample code For like this is how you should use the component Like that's what does really What most people are asking for And that is not far off And I'm excited to Kind of see what we can deliver on that Overcoming year This is not production code Right?

This is still Something we might ship to production Right? In this scenario? Uh, no, I mean, I think It depends We'll see how it turns out But I can think of Yeah, it depends Currently it's not there though Right? It's going to be there Yeah, I mean currently It's like we see code gen very much As it's kind of a starting point Kind of unblock your writer's block Kind of thing And tell you how to do that Box shadow, or filter, or Linder grade, and CSS Like it's great for that, right?

So it's It's a way to unblock writer's block And documentation almost, right? But then we want to You know, bring your design system into this as well So that when you click on button It says Import my button from library And this is the I don't know, this is some sample code Of how you can use that My button to achieve what you want Like that is That is where we want to get to What's up, friends? AI continues to be integrated Into every facet of our lives And that remains true Because you can now index your database with AI You can write more code Become that 10x where you always want to be And you can even draft a letter For a lease on an apartment, or A new property AI is everywhere And it might be time for us to start questioning Is AI our friend, or our worst enemy? And that's the focus of the three-part Season opener of the award-winning podcast Called Traceroth Podcast You can listen to all the new season of Traceroth On November 2nd, on Apple, Spotify, Or orbit your podcast And this shows all about the humanity And the hardware that shapes our digital world And every episode of Traceroth, a team of technologists Seeks to untangle the complex question Who shapes the internet?

Season 1 and 2 gave us a crucial Understanding of the inner workings Of technology while revealing the human element behind tech And season 3, tech goes not just AI questions But also, how can we use technology To preserve the Earth? Who influences the technology that gets made? And what happened to the flying cars? We were promised I think it's safe to say that the future of AI Is both exciting and terrifying So it's interesting to hear the perspectives Of experts in the field Listen and follow this new season of Traceroth Turn November 2nd, on Apple, Spotify, Or wherever you get your podcasts How many orgs have design systems?

It seems like I tend to have a very indie lens It's always scaling up to larger But I know that design systems are things That we talk about a lot on podcasts And there's people who let go and teach How to have a design system But I feel like this is something that like High quality, well invested orgs have But most of us don't have I see a lot of startups with design systems as well It depends on what you define as design systems Right? Like, oh yeah What do you define? Material design is a design system Used by like thousands of companies Right? Or you have AMP Design Or these open-source design systems Right?

I would still count that as the company Having a design system Although they didn't build it, right? They're using a design system If you think about it like that The vast majority are using some kind of design system I think that's not an official stat It's just like that's the feeling I get Sure, that's fair I just think that To a certain extent, it is a barrier to getting started But maybe because of open source And because of the proliferation Of at least low cost Available design systems You could get started relatively easy Maybe like the steps You know, two or three of startup Is like business idea Right? Some sort of feature list Or go to market strategy And then like some kind of a design system So you can start building that thing Yeah, but also design systems aren't a binary thing It's not like either have or you don't have one Even like, you know, week one as a startup You'll probably be like What color should we use for our logo? What font should we use?

Like those are the first decisions You're starting to make As your design system, right? Where like, how should our buttons look? Right? Like, so the decision you have to make And probably you want Kind of your styling of your various elements To kind of have a consistent look and feel Whether you're using an open source system or not And this is building up a design system Now, it might not be like Formally a design system, so to speak But I'd still like That's the starting point of a very good design system What color should we use for our logo?

And then the answer is always blue or purple Right? Like, everybody gets a blue or purple I want more to pick orange But that's just working I'm a fan of orange as well Adam? Green, blue, purple Green Green Hiker Green, bro You know? Green Hiker for life Davenport is green Hiker Man That's real Terminal prompt Lives in Greenland This is being designed initially for Those that appreciate Whether they do it themselves Or inherit it or adopt it A design system First Because that's a good place to begin Right?

I would say yes and no Yes and no I would say that is our core focus now I would say for those that don't have a design system Demo works great I would say if you are super invested in design systems There's just like a lot more we can do Like I think demo we're great if you have a design system today as well It's just I think there's just more opportunity to provide even more value Once you have a design system Versus if you don't have a design system Like in a way There's just like a cap for like how much we How much value we can bring to you By knowing that system We can infer a lot of things We can build upon that and just provide a lot more value So that's where our focus is We think for those without design systems Dev mode is I wouldn't say done It's never done But we think it solves for them pretty well today And it does again It does step forward those with design systems as well There's just like infinite kind of runway to do more I think Okay Is it challenging to give us a zero to dev mode scenario To go from not a FIMA user to FIMA user To enjoying what dev mode is Whether let's just say I'm a startup who You know adopt a material As an example you did We didn't build it We inherited it We adopted it We appreciate it But How do I go from zero To appreciate what dev mode offers my team Yeah, that's a great question I think With something like material design Like using a design system like that One it's like a really big design system It's like pretty complicated Once you get into it There's a lot of options There's a million components And what dev mode offers Is really a way to really move fast As a developer here You can get those mockups You can quickly like Whatever you're clicking It'll actually tell you like Oh, this is the documentation For that specific component This is what you should be using a code And that's like a link to If you're using like mui Or whatever Like an implementation of material design in code You quickly know like exactly what components to use So you're not trying to like For every like every step in the design Try to figure out, read the docs Figure out kind of what to do You can much more quickly translate this over And that's kind of one of the things That dev mode gives you to like move really quickly And I think especially if you're using a dev mode With in VS code You can be like really heads down in the flow Focus on coding And always be easily referencing Kind of this component you need to use To reliably kind of recreate what the designer has done But especially in like Let's say like This is a smaller team That's like really quick moving I think things like Our compare changes feature Is super powerful here Where when something's changing go into dev mode And just hit a button And instead of like Asking your designer to you know Write up a change log in We're really human So they're going to forget like 60% of the things They changed right Where you can just ask the computer Like what actually changed here What should I be updating? What values Or what components should I be changing To really stay in sync With what my designer wants me to do here Right And this in the end when it goes faster You're more like autonomous Because you don't need to rely on like waiting For designer to respond And three like You're going to build a higher quality product Because you're not going to miss something That you would have naturally missed otherwise There's many more examples of this But yeah like Whether you're a small team or Or like tens of thousands of thousands Like person organization You can take advantage of various features of DevNet To really help you again Build better products faster I like that Tenglin I'm going to keep using that too That's pretty solid What are you going to use it for? Build better products faster Anything And to describe all the things I'm doing Yep just helping you build better products faster It's like cliche If you're a Silicon Valley fan They say that often in season one So I got to mention that Wait do they? Yeah Maybe that's where I've gotten it Maybe that's where we got it from Listen I don't want to be cliche here But we're making the world a better place We're building a better price faster I don't think they say exactly that Not like that I'm being very caricature But yeah it's a thing I mean not in the beginning But when did it become self-hosted?

Yeah exactly Yeah yeah No we quickly started Both as a company and as a team Right the DevNet team is pretty small Within FICMOM It's growing But pretty small So we use DevNet And engineers and designers use DevNet And the rest of the company does as well The beauty of that is like We never forced anybody to use it I think that's the kind of The worst kind of dog creating If you forced people to use it Because then you don't learn Why they choose not to use it Right So the beginning people choose not to use it Right? We learned really much from that internally As we iterated on the product And we got to a place Where really the majority of developers Internally we're using it And I mean not everybody And you would not expect that right? But we got to a place where more and more So to use it And that's when we were kind of Starting to Starting to move to more external testing At that point So yeah we use it And the features we love to rely on As a team are like Really this I mean a lot of the design system features I've talked about But also this kind of These tools for clear communication So specifically the ready for Dev stuff Because our designers do like 700 mockups Which is like great And we get a lot of exploration But it can be really unclear About which one did we land on in the end And ready for DevNet really allows us to Really get everybody on the same page there And same using annotations To really annotate Every little detail And annotations is For those listening And not a feature yet of DevNet But it's coming really soon And we couldn't be more excited about it It's a way for you to Annotate every little Measurement or add little notes Or annotate Like this should be 12 pixel font size Really spec out all the details In a way that You can always do before manually But now it's like 10x faster Which really make sure Your designer's actually going to enjoy Specging up the spec Which also leads to If they're going to At least you're basically like You being on the same page So we're using that a ton as well That's a great Medium for As designers To take out our patch of aggressive moves Put a note on there It's 12 pixels wide Carl You know Stuff like that Yeah And you'll see teams using it I don't love this But you'll see teams Sometimes using it as a way To cover their own ass If I annotate it Then it's not my fault It's not in there Right Right I don't think that's the best culture to have But that's not how we use it Well, it's a tool And humans use tools As humans use tools So annotations coming soon Very cool Anything else about the process The creation process for you all Internally Are there any bits of Visley That are left in here Is assets or is that just ancient history And this is like a fresh Start, everything's like Figma 100% codebase Yeah, it's Figma 100% From a codebase perspective Like we really came in as As people who I thought about this a lot Right More so than people with a large codebase And in terms of process Like I think there's a ton of talk About there I think the The thing to keep in mind Is like And that I love about Working at Figma And it kind of what is instilled in Defimate as well Is that building this product Has been really collaborative Right, we've had You know, our designers And our fantastic like Product managers Thinking about this But also the whole engineering team And giving feedback Constantly as well Because you know It's a developer tool But developers at Figma Give feedback all the time On designer tools as well So that's fine Like, but it's like a super Collaborative process And yes, we've gone in circles A couple of times And back and forth To make sure we land on the correct thing But it's really been developed As a really collaborative product And it's been developed Collaboratively as well In a way that We couldn't have gone to the same Quality product If we hadn't gone We had all those opinions in the room And while we were designing And building it out I'm just glad we're here You know, the PSD to HTML based Just whatever, man PTSD PTSD to OMG You know, forget that stuff Scenario I'm just glad we're here I'm glad we have people like you Just, I mean What an amount of effort it must have taken Like, I know you even struggled for Well, iterated for over a year and a half When just like how to get there Like how to go to that magic But at moment, you know And it's It's hard to appreciate those moments, you know It's hard to appreciate All that goes into The details To make the future possible For sure And it's It's so fun now that We've launched that meta And in beta What was it, mid-june? I keep forgetting it It's for mid-june What's going on?

And yeah, I can fake a mid-june And it's been so fun Not just to see people use it But it's entirely changed How we developed the product In a really good way Where, you know, when it's secret In the beginning, also, before launching It's, you know, you talk to some customers You ask them to sign an NDA And it's like over a zoom And it is what it is, isn't you get Some feedback But since launching it We've been able to really talk to users In an entirely different way And that's really led us to Really be able to accelerate, you know A development on dev mode In a very different way as well We launched it mid-june We launched it with a big Give us feedback button up top And the interesting thing is A lot of people have written in To us like, oh, I don't think anybody will read this It's like, we read every single one We connected it to our Slack So we get a ping and notification For every single feedback request And in the beginning This was thousands per day So it's overwhelming I might have missed one or two But we read most of them That's awesome And not just me, Reddit Or like, you know, my boss or whatever But every single engineering designer on the team Was in that Slack channel Reading every single piece of feedback And through mid-june to, I think it was mid-August We resolved, like, over 200 Issues of varying sizes, sure But added features, resolved issues And just, like, worked super closely with everybody And we're continuing to do that Since then as well But the team was just, like, operating at Totally different velocity than before In terms of, like, those sorts of fixing those sorts of issues Because we had, you know, user feedback So we saw these issues That we couldn't possibly see before And we had, like, a fire hose Directly kind of injected into the team That they could see and get pinged on every single day And I still get, at this point I don't know the number Less than a thousand per day But still we had, like, many times per day Pinged by this Slack bot Which is, like, here's feedback, here's feedback, here's feedback So we're seeing it all in real time And that's how we like to build products Very cool, and, well, the blog post Is out there on the Figma blog, if you want to read More, of course, we have a deep dive Here, anything left unsaid, anything we didn't ask you about That you had an itch in to say before we call the show One thing that we haven't talked about And this being, like, there's a lot of developers listening in here I think it's worth maybe Just, like, trying a bit about the developer platform That is Figma as well Like, we have this, we've had this really robust REST API For a long time now And also, like, a really robust plugin API for a long time And both these, they play in the Figma as a whole But also, especially dev mode And I think it's such a fun kind of visual platform to develop for And in many ways, it's, I mean, it's been around for a while But, I mean, it's not the iOS app store Like, there's definitely a lot of space for innovation here And a ton of, like, untouched grounds So, I- What kind of stuff can you build? Can you paint a picture for folks? Like, give us an idea of what kind of stuff we could build? Yeah, so, I mean, generally speaking, the API gives you access To everything in a Figma file With, like, high fidelity down to, like, individual vector paths For all the drawings, images, fonts, etc It also gives you access, if you're building plugins in Figma design It gives you access to, also, add any design object to the canvas In dev mode, you can't edit the canvas Because, again, this is something we heard from developers They didn't want accidentally edit the canvas So we restrict plugins from editing But, yeah, plugins in dev mode Like, we have, again, you'll have, like, simpler things But it's totally really powerful, like, our integration with G.R.N.

Atlassian on a partnership there Where you can click on any part of the design And, like, new issue And it'll link it together with exactly that part of the design And similar, like, Storybook has built an integration So you can connect your Chromatic Storybook instance to dev mode And you can say, this component in Figma is this component And my storybook, you can, like, link this together And once you've done that once Any developer going in later can run that plugin And see and interact with, like, the code version of the component And the Figma component at the same time And spot differences or, you know, know the API Learn the API, and so forth So, super powerful We've seen plugins that allow you to export assets in, like, formats That, like, we Figma just haven't gone to supporting yet And then there's, I think, at this point, over 100 different Code Gen plugins for, like, tailwind, flood, or react native React, like, Swift, all the things, right? And even some, like, you know, entire companies built around Code Gen, like, anima Who've built a fantastic Code Gen plugin for dev mode That exports really high quality, like, a React application Or even, like, view and a couple of other frameworks For you to, like, get a really strong starting point, I would say, on your development So, highly encouraged looking into these plugins But, as a developer, there's just a lot you can do here And I'm excited to just, like, see people innovate I don't want to, like, say, these are the things you can build Because, honestly, like, I'm excited to see what people think about When they kind of read up on this more and check out what's already existing But you can really do anything you want with the visual content in Figma This is super cool And that's, like, the plugin API in Figma Then, like, people are building top of the REST API Things, like, a designer changes a design token or a recall in variables In Figma, that automatically, like, pushes a GitHub PR to your repo With CSS versions of that definition So, if you update a color in Figma, you can accept a pull request in GitHub for that new color Which is also, like, super cool There you go That's there now Uh, yeah, I mean, the REST API is there I can't point to a specific implementation of kind of the GitHub syncing But I know there's some kind of open source things there Well, actually, before, like, is this production, you know, around dev mode You know, the question I really was kind of getting, there was less, specifically, the dev mode, in particular, but more The platform of Figma, like, with such a... You're eventually going to become where production happens You're going to be experimenting and production to some degree with design even, too Where you're not, it's still pull request, it's still code changes, it's still get-based Like, all workflows are, it's still going to have CI in there But at some point, you're literally going to be, you know, iterating on the exact thing that is The production artifact that's working, that has AB tests And you won't have this, you know, dev production silo It'll just be, this is what it is I think partially, uh, I mean, our mission with dev mode is really to Help developers go from design to production as quickly as possible Uh, and with, like, as high quality as possible And I think the help developers there is, like, a really important piece of it Like, we're really not trying to replace developers here, we're really trying to help them And I think where we can go, like, directly, right, from, like, tool to get and, like, bypass the developer Is in very specific scenarios, and it's the specific scenarios, I think, engineers hate doing Which is, like, our color got updated and think about, please update the hex code corresponding to that And code is, like, very, like, machine translatable Or, like, this icon got a new vector in it, please re-export it and reuse that thing And all the places it's already used is, like, our computer should be able to do this for me, right? Let's, like, find a replace with the same asset, just an updated asset Those are the things we're thinking about when it comes to, like, pipelining from design to, like, not production necessarily, but to get, let's call it directly But for everything else, we're just really trying to give developers, like, the support they need to Go as quickly as possible while maintaining high quality from design to production Maybe one last question on that front, we can call it a show, but when they get to production, does this tool go away?

Because if it's so influential and so transformative to get there, faster I would just want to stay there, faster, more efficient, better, etc That's a great question, I don't think it has to end, it does today Or in a way it does today, like, I would say it doesn't end, but there's a gap, right? Because I think all product development is, like, a cycle Where, like, it will go back and design updates will be made And those will eventually go through dev mode and reach production again There's a gap there between kind of, you know, a good production and then dev starts being used until new designs and then starts being used again Like, you could imagine, like, us in the future helping you, like, assess your production environments, like, how close it is to the designs, to spot bugs, maybe, or spot things that should be tweaked, or maybe there's a way for you to, I'm very much just spitballing on ideas here that are kind of in the back of my head, but maybe there's ways for you to, like, on your production site, maybe add a note to be like, you know, in our next redesign, maybe we should fix this, right? Things like that, and that's, like, somehow connected back to your designs or to complete that loop. I think there's potential for interesting things there in the future It's not something we're necessarily working on now, but, like, I think it's interesting to think about how we can really acknowledge that this is a cycle, right?

And it's a cycle of iteration and not just a one-time pass. And that's really how we're thinking about all the stigma and especially dev mode all the time is like, it's not necessarily like, how can we finish the process faster? It's like, how can we squeeze out five more iteration cycles? That's how we're thinking about things, right?

Because we know that, like, it's twice the iteration cycles, like, twice the product quality, twice the code quality, whatever, right? So we're not necessarily trying to get you to finish the project faster, although you can choose to use it in that way. But we're more thinking about it as, like, squeezing out more iteration, and you can choose, you know, how to, you can save five hours and use five hours for iteration. You can split that time however you want, right?

Well, again, I appreciate you being on the mission because somebody needs to be, and this is the future because it's what's being used, the most widely adopted design tool I know we use internally for various different things, and it's the future, so we'll keep on it. Use it. Check it out. What's left?

Anything else? It's 2023 and we haven't talked about AI, but I feel like that's a whole thing. We should not. We should stop before we talk about it.

Only thing I'll say is that I'm excited. Can't talk about much, but there's definitely exciting things coming down. Very cool. We'll have to use that as a tease for some future content.

The future. Yeah. Well, thanks, Emil. It's awesome.

There's great chatting with both of you. Yeah, you too. Okay, let's do an unofficial poll right here at the tail end of the podcast. I want to know, raise your hand, hop in Slack, go on Twitter, wherever you want.

Let us know. Do you recall the PSD to HTML era? That's why. Are you using any code gen tools, literally helping you write your code or tooling-like code gen from Figma that helps you generate your code from some sort of visual tool?

That's too. And I guess last, are you using a design system, either one you made, i.e. your team, your org, or something that was made out there in open source that you've adopted? That's great.

Let us know. Again, hop in Slack. And I said to Twitter before, but I guess I meant X. My bad.

Still can't get that right. And hey, by the way, we have a bonus six minutes for a plus plus subscribers. You can go to changelaw.com slash plus to learn more. It's better.

It is better. 10 bucks a month, hard bucks a year, directly support us, drop the ads, get bonus content. And I guess a little bit more love because you're closer to that cool change love medal. And that's where you want to be.

Again, changelaw.com slash plus plus. Okay, one more shout out to our friends and partners at Fastly, our partners at Fly. And of course, our search partner, typecents.org. Much love.

And of course, the beat freak in resident breakmaster's cylinder for bringing those beats every single week. So, so good. Okay, so it's Thanksgiving. One, thank you so much.

Of course, we love you. And two, that means we're gonna take the week off for change-looking friends. So if you're looking forward to Friday, look forward to next Friday instead. We're talking to Gerge, Oroz, have no idea what we're talking about, but I'm sure we'll talk about a lot of fun stuff happening in the ever-changing dev engineering tech landscape.

It's crazy out there. Okay, see you next week.