Building the Ultimate Hacking Keyboard

I'm not so much and you are listening to the change look Welcome back everyone. This is the change vlog and I'm your host Adam's Dukoviac This is episode 186 and on today's show we're talking to Las La Monda also known as latte He's building the ultimate hacking keyboard. That's right. The ultimate hacking keyboard also known as uHK We talked all aspects hardware software the open source around it how it's a platform for hackers to hack on and make it their own We also had four awesome sponsors Coatship top towel harvest and also the node our first sponsor is coatship They've got an awesome e-book totally for free for you to download today head to resources.coatship.com Slash e-books and you're gonna see a book there called why containers and Docker are the future now This ebook is gonna help you learn what the differences are between the traditional virtual machine and container stacks You'll also learn about Docker and its ecosystem and why it's such a big deal and you'll also learn about Docker and its community and how They're helping to standardize the container workflow now You can go to resources.coatship.com slash e-books right now download this ebook I shouldn't tell you this but when you do that you're gonna get access to three other e-books from coatship diving deep into Docker Continue to delivery and how to do all this with native Docker support head to resources.coatship.com slash e-books and download those e-books right now We're head to our show notes for the link now on to the show Everyone I'm here joined today by Lasso Monda Also known as Lazzi and now maybe a lot of you can describe because you're Hungarian how names work for you Yes, so in Hungary and the first name comes last and the last name comes first.

So in Hungary I'm mondo Lasso and in the US time Lasso mondo. So which one is actually your first name then? Last little last time. Okay, but your friends and the Hungarian nickname for you is Lazzi Yep, exactly and so for this show I'm gonna call you Lazzi.

Okay. Thank you. That's awesome I like that well, you know We like to be very personal with our guests around here at the chainsville We love you know not just the software you produce and the community that just that thrives around that software and what gets open-sourced and the education you share but we also care about our guests and You know one of the things we love most is just kind of diving deep into the past of the gas now Made it set up the topic at hand though is we're gonna be talking mainly about this keyboard you've made this ultimate hacking What's what the name of it is? Yep, and if I recall correctly in change all weekly at issue number 36 We linked to a post that you shared on the top-top log called from the ground up How I built the developers dream keyboard and that was the number one clicked link and for those out there Listen to the show that subscribe to change all weekly.

We have sponsored links in there clearly marked This was a sponsored link and it was the number one link and the entire email So we were pretty stoked about that. What did you think about it? Did you even know about that? Naturally, it was crazy because the attention that the post got was way above our expectations and it got reposted in various sites and it It's about two thousand subscribers And we'll talk about some days to for that post that post was posted on let's see if I can see the date here I can't tell a date But I know that change log 36 came out around the same time of that post and that was in January 17th January 17th of this year so all your long you've been working hard at this you wrote that blog post on the top-top blog You're also part of the top-top network So dog food in here a little bit a little disclosure to you and the listeners top top-top has been a sponsor of the show for many years now They love what we do here.

They support almost everything was show But we have a deep partnership with with top-down. They're actually sponsoring this show in particular just what happens They didn't even know that you were coming on the show But you're also part of the top-top network. Can you speak a little bit about your experience so far at top-top? So I went through their interview process and became part of the network.

I haven't yet worked through the top-top I created a couple of blog posts on their blog and this was the more popular most popular so far So I was talking to Anna who is also a top-top-top member and she mentioned me that I should really write a blog post Yeah, I talked to Brennan Benuschott the co-founder and CTO or COO as matter of fact and you probably know Brennan But part of the top-top network isn't just about helping developers get plugged into actual paying gigs where you're getting products It's also becoming a part of this, you know Worldwide developer network and I really don't want to make this an ad for them I think this is really interesting because this is a chance for us to talk to and top-teller here on the show and share a bit about You know what their process is and kind of how you step into that and while you may not have taken on any engagements You've blogged and as you mentioned this particular blog post that we covered in T-hul weekly issue 36 was huge for you So what was the the ramifications what came from that initial blog post about this project? Well, what do you mean by Sinking ramifications. Well when I say rip like what what was the ripple effect? So you posted the blog post We obviously covered it who else found interest in this post and was like wow, this is really interesting.

Okay, so this post get this the supposed that featured on the blog and then I Think the the blog has little table has seven thousand Subscribers for viewers so it got huge attention And if you see at the end of the post there are dozens of comments and then you get reposted on there is a Java that these own Come where it received a huge attention again, and then I sent it to say that Where it get featured on the main page. Wow, so it was a huge ripple effect for sure and it helped us tremendously There are 2000 subscribers just just based on this one post As our listeners know we do like dive a little deeper into the the past and history of our guests And like I said this uh, alton hacking keyboard is the main topic. I got a couple more questions that kind of You know kind of tee that up a bit, but we are gonna dive deeper into your past a bit and find out where it came from But if I go back to this blog post and listeners will have this in the show notes for the show So as you know, go ahead and head there look for the post from the ground up How I built the developers keyboard or dream keyboard and you'll see the post we're talking about if you want to fall along But if I look through this post it's talking about or do we know it and the look of the keyboard that's being shown here is different Then the look of the keyboard now what state was the was this keyboard in what was the stage of the project when this post went out? Was it early was it still not quite where it's at today?

Yeah, I guess that that was our search generation prototype that we featured in the post and Back then the two have keyboard has were connected by a retractable cable Which had a totally different look than the current cord cable. It's like a telephone cord right now shorter and Yep. Yep. Yeah, I kind of like that, but I can imagine I haven't touched it yet to know but I feel like that's a better kind of cable Absolutely, which is why actually it does look a lot different.

Yeah, so those those retractable cables failed on us like it's like there's not tomorrow Right those were those were super unreliable and the funny thing is that there is a manufacturer on the market who says they keep their keyboards the bed cable and its customers complain But it's reliable and and because we had so many iterations with their prototype We we were able to To throw that cable and use another one that is actually very reliable. So we won't have a con complaints later on Well, that's it. I mean I think the listeners have got enough so far to understand that English might not be your native language or first speaking language Yep. Um, and I find it all very interesting with the last show we had Episode 185 if I belong if I recall correctly, let me go back to my notes real quick Um, we talked to a modulus re who is from Syria originally and he had a really rich story Of how he came to software how using internet was illegal in Syria, but yet he found and others found a way around hurdles And you can take that same conversation We had in the last show and take it back to mitra hashimoto and several other guests We've had to have been influential software developers that come on the show Um, maybe I teed that up in a good way.

Maybe a bad way, but what what is it about your history? You're from from hungry. What can you share about where you came from to get to being a software developer? What's the where should we start with that?

Well, I got my first computer in the age of six. It was a camcometer 64 and From the point there was no going back So I'm just the I guess I'm just the geeky type who likes to tinker and Programming pretty much allows this you can break down problems and solve them And uh, it's it just makes sense to me and it's attractive to me And uh later I get my first pc and around the uh year 2000 broadband internet access became widespread in hungry And I I get into web programming and over the years I I Used a large large number of languages Java that met by town JavaScript or shell and uh, I I wrote all kinds of education GUI got my line client server and lately Programming microcontroller send and understanding the various layers of the software stack and I guess I'm I'm pretty much full stack Pretty much like I would think so I mean here in uh all languages and things you've messed with that's definitely Uh, definitely full stack and I think it depends on who you talk to what full stack means I would actually probably label you a polyglot more than full stack even though full stack is a better probably, you know Totally accurate. I think full stack is sometimes used to describe somebody on the web potentially that's you know back end database, you know Ops front end design even um, but maybe polyglot. What do you think about polyglot?

Yeah, I think it's uh, it's it's a better term in my in my case because Uh, it's not only the uh case not only about programming but also about design cards are and soldering microcontroller. So the circuit board so Yeah, hopefully glott is a better term. I believe so whenever um, whenever you look at a problem And uh, and that problem involves design software. How do you first think about do you think?

Uh, how do you reverse engineer a problem to say this is the language I would use and I would use this feature this feature and this feature How do you approach some of the things you've done here? Or maybe even some of the first problems you had whenever you were first learning a program? Oh geez, it was such a long time ago There's so much more opportunities right now and nowadays I I use JavaScript when we're possible because it's so easy to prototype stuff in JavaScript but well like tonight I use basic for the Commodore and uh, And learn to see and then sort things languages and realize how much easier it is How much easier it is to achieve to solve problems in scripting languages. It's a pretty general question So how to answer it?

Well, I think from the polyglot standpoint, you know, whenever okay, let's let's maybe instead of going back in the past Let's state it now or in the last two years whenever as a polyglot when you look at a problem What are you know? How do you know for those out there who may not know what a polyglot is or have an idea want to be one Uh, which is someone who loves and knows many languages and can look at a problem agnostically and say why use this language for this problem? Or I would use that for that. How do you think about things like that?

Yeah, I guess uh lately I had to learn so so many stuff that I Ended up using many JavaScript Yeah, so that's your thing now. Yep. Yeah, because Earlier I used Python for certain purposes and then node became vice-bred and the whole library JavaScript library ecosystem in gets or h That I realized that I can solve almost any problem that I encounter with JavaScript and I I adopted it as my number one language earlier earlier. I use bhp and python for many of those tasks But nowadays it's small to JavaScript for sure and see for microcontroller programming.

Yep So maybe I'm not the best Guy to answer these questions because I just had to learn the way too many stuff lately and I I had a lot of things on my brain and I have to focus the One language. Yeah, so when it comes to um, I guess some history. What was you know, you mentioned the Commodore 64 and you mentioned the pc Um, can you remember some of the very first substantial things you've done that were like that played a pivotal role into Either you building the uhk keyboard like what was it that was pivotal earlier in your life that? That is a you know a fun story that you can tell that's about how you got to be right today Wow Could be an influencer could be you know up to the project.

Maybe some client work. What was it? They got you? You know prepare to be the person behind this awesome keyboard.

It's so hard to to uh, speak a single experience so many Yeah, so For example, I was working on the government system for for client and for that I use his bhp and Hxified so to speak a major ui component Uh, that was a filter table And then I was working on a startup as a co-founder It was called one day air and the so it worked. I he looked into it was a web to that's oh, so if I can use that term because So the way you work you looked in and you you searched for songs and you you added this the song of your choice to door to Your playing to your wishlist and then the system was listening to about 100 radio stations and as soon as Uh one of those stations it encountered with your with a song on your playlist it recorded it And so you could play it back or download it in your browser. So so this was a pretty cool and fancy web application And as I understand it kind of fast-forwarding a little bit closer to today in preparation for all this happening And I guess the Tia prior to the break we had about three or four minutes before the next break But just at the next conversation maybe prime it a little bit Um, the uhk the ultimate hacking keyboard Um has it has not a Kickstarter. It's uh, it's something different that I haven't personally heard of until I went to this one Which is crowd supplies if you got a crowd to apply calm.

It's a similar to kickstart I don't know what why did you choose crowd supply over something else to to in quote kickstart this thing Yeah, so the two major crowd funding sites are kickstarter and indiegogo and about two years ago We were contacted by indiegogo and crime supply independently and Initially, I was hesitant to choose one over the other but I I guess crowd supply better appeals to the geeky type If you if you take a look at their campaigns, there are many developer related projects like hardware projects and developer boards and I think they these products appeal to the doer type to our kind and they not only do the crowd funding stage but they can also help you in in pr and in uh contacting manufacturers and Yep, they do all this extra so crowd supplies a little different than kickstart. I didn't I never really looked into the details like I almost imagined that you're in charge of your own kickstarter. It's essentially a platform from bringing Um, you know the interests of the masses but it's up to you to build out your page do a video source materials So this seems like it's a little bit more uh here in america. We have a show that you probably watch yourself Uh, it's called shark tank and it almost reminds me a little bit of that where if you work with a shark Which is what they're called in show then they bring their own attributes to help you get to your goal So not only do they bring you know Combining equity with funding or whatever they'll bring in licensing partners.

They'll bring in retail manufacturers They'll bring in distribution. You know operators. They've been working with for years So is this similar with uh with crowdsplier? You know, not only are you hosting your uh, your fundraising campaign on there, but they're also helping you in other ways too Yep, they are able to if you ask them.

So Yep, absolutely. Does that mean it's a bigger piece of the pie or does that mean that's just uh an allocart feature that you could just use if you want to or don't Well, I'm not uh actually sure what what's the deal is regarding Regarding the the extra services like uh contacting manufacturers because in all honestly we didn't use that feature because we we get up Uh the connections with manufacturers. Yeah, you know, you're in contact then Yep, a bit Yeah, but it's pretty interesting about crowd funding that many people thinks that Uh kickstarter or indigo is a way better platform because they are a better known And the truth is that really you have to bring the people to the side So prior to launching our campaign, we were proactively working on On developing this subscribe or base collecting the on these people's via our site So and if you don't do that then then you you won't be able to make your campaign a success I'm glad you mentioned campaign because that was next on my list before going to the break is is there's a campaign As you can guess on crowdspliers. We've been talking about here.

Um, the campaign's name is ultimate hacking key What's been going on searching feel free to but we're gonna put the link to the campaign show page In our show notes and right now before we go to the break you are you are a 104 percent funded Which means you don't really need the help of this show which the funding ends this sunday Uh, so we're recording this on December 9th around mid-afternoon here in us central standard time And we'll have it edited and live on friday morning So if you're listening to this it's either friday saturday or later obviously But if you're listening to this now and now for you is December 11th, December 12th or December 13th Uh, if this is an interesting topic to you can go to the URL Have our show notes and you know commit some support to this project at whatever level and we'll talk more detail about those levels So um, I always find it interesting to to have These kinds of conversations on this show because it's it's sort of it's sort of two parts And in some ways jerev is on the show today, which he's not he had some things going on by the way That's why she just me on the show, but in some ways we don't really want to be the show where we have Funding things on the show because we kind of feel spamming away But there's so much open-sour should doing behind this and it's such a core component to being a hacker To have the ultimate hack and keyboard it only made sense to have this conversation So this is the last time i'm going to really press the issue of going there and checking it out and if you want to fund it Then you can so as i said today we're recording on the ninth Uh the campaign ends on the 13th which is December 13th So if you're listening to this between the 11th 12th or 13th you still have time after that Maybe before the closing break you can tell the listeners if they're listening to on the 14th 15th 16th or beyond What can they do after the funding is over to kind of hop in and take part and support this? Yes, so uh, why if i would stop that we will take pre-orders so right now keyboard calls to 200 dollars and uh beginning from the from the 15th Uh, it will cost 220 a little bit more expensive, but still cheaper than after the shipping Which will happen on the july of the next year And then also to to mention um on that note of people going there now to support it Um You're shipping potentially what mid to end of 2016 so it's it says end of 2015 now So it's almost your turn around till someone might have this in their hands that does that roughly your estimate? Well, uh, it will happen in july Okay, yep, so july 2016 has been shipping kicks off exactly. Yep.

Good. Well, all right Lazzi that takes us into our first break. So let's let's take a break Uh, we come back we're gonna have a lot deeper into the uhk what it is the software behind it What it takes to actually make hardware and software meld together Uh, it's been a labor love for lazzi so i'm sure we got lots to cover but for now Let's let's break it quick here from a sponsor and we'll be back Top tau is by far the best place to work as a freelance off developer right here on today's show Lazzi and i talked about his experience at top tau and how he's enjoyed being a part of a global network of engineers and the impact that has had On the ultimate hacking keyboard if you're freelancing right now as a software developer and you're looking for a way to work top clients on products that are interesting to you Challenging and using technologies you want to use top tau might just be the place for you Also a new perk to mention is being able to apply for your grant to work on open source of your choice So you can take a break from client engagements and get back to open source with the financial help of top tau Now if you want a personal introduction reach out to me at them at change log.com I would gladly put you in touch with the right people at top tau Otherwise head to top tau.com slash developers to learn more and tell them to change log sent you Alright, we're back with uh lazzi so you know lance i'm just so excited about the conversation coming up because we're diving deep into The ultimate hacking keyboard and now i'm gonna preface this next two parts of the show with the fact that i've personally never thought about Using something like this now i'm primarily a front end guy designer user experience fluent sass html dot Escort those kinds of things but more on front end web development So i never really thought about personally using one of these and i know jared uses a similar keyboard It's more for ergonomics not for kiwi key mapping and like totally hacking this keyboard But i'm kind of curious if um if you can share where this idea came from really what made you think man I need to make a keyboard that's totally for hackers Yes, so it was back in the august of 2007 and i noticed uh moving my hands between the verized blocks of the keyboard Like there is the afanymeric block and there are the fks and the navigation block and the New numpad and i thought that it would be great if i could stay on the home row and never leave it And of course it's possible with whereas editors like for like rei that you you are you aren't always in rei and i wanted to Uh stay in the home row in the universal manner in every application right so that was major design principle The the other thing was uh, I wanted it to be a split keyboard because i noticed my hand in this in this rather Unc profitable offshore close to each other and i thought that it would be great If i could just separate the keyboard halves and position and orient them in any way i want And uh, I also wanted to make it in a way that the two halves can be attached as one And so it's super compact transportation purposes so uh I came out of this idea and became super excited about it and uh created a I'm a Linux user and I created an x-vault map keyboard, which is basically There are these vice uh, this x-mode map Ice that you can write and then it take contain whereas keyboard mappings and I configured my software mapping in a way that I uh, I press the windows key along with jkli And it mapped to left right up down so I created the uh, navigation block New jkli keys And I mapped other other keys like page up page down home and to that region and this way I didn't have to move my hand only my fingers But uh, it wasn't ideal because for switching between these layers That is reaching reaching the navigation faction via via the windows key it wasn't really comfortable And I was thinking how to We can mark more comfortable and I realized that if space is split then one one Part of it and side of it can be used as space and the other can be used as a layer switch or key so to speak So on the uhk the right space is the space actually and the left space is the mud key and if you keep mud, this is layers which okay if you keep it pressed then the jkli will will trigger left down right up and Way h becomes page up and page down and seven becomes f seven So you basically map every key outside of the efling-marry block to the efling-marry block with the what layer To pin the picture we mentioned that it breaks apart. So at the middle of the keyboard I'm not sure which exactly I got a picture of you only go a little bit a little bit a little bit a second Reference this but basically if you're looking at your typical keyboard From the number row down to the space bar row you got six t gb and what is normally a space bar Which is actually split between a mod key and a space key on either side That's where the keyboard splits when that's on the left hand side right hand side You got again from the number road down to the space where you got seven y hn and what's typically the space bar That's on the right hand side so that at that point of the keyboard if you're looking at your own keyboard right now That's where you can see the split that the latte is talking about And so I just want to paint that picture because you're describing it to kind of paint that picture for the listeners because this is not a visual Sure, okay So the keyboard is split according to touch typing grows So if you do correct touch typing then then it should be comfortable right now to reach over to the other keyboard Which means the j key and the f keys got that little knobby that you can kind of feel with your pointer finger Yep, okay And the the six key is always a subject of debate because in the u.s Us people are trying to press 6b with their right hand but for various parts of the word for example hungry We are trying to press it with the left Finger left.

I guess I really thought about what what hand I used to press the six key Uh, I guess maybe I just did a little test. You have some lessons you don't think and I I would probably go with either I don't know I guess it depends on how my brain feels and I really thought that there's a particular pattern that's already existing there So the reason the the six key is is on the left half is because of symmetry because the keyboard is more symmetrical this way Right. So this is the reason So there is the base layer that features HJL KL and the other keys and there is the mod layer if you keep the mod key pressed then this becomes left down Right and all the other navigation keys and there is the mouse key that is in the place of caps lock And if you keep it pressed then JKLI we move the mouse pointer And this works without installing any special triggers because the keyboard exposes standard USB descriptors towards the host And then there is the the FN layer you are also familiar with the FN key And it has revised MIDI shortcuts like volume up volume down and all these kinds of stuff So there are these four layers that makes you access all the functionality of the standard keyboard and more I do want to dive into that because there's four layers and even the mouse that you'll probably dive into as well Like even the mouse you can tap into and kind of remap you have some questions specifically around that Um, and I also noticed as you're describing it So for the listeners out there if we'll put some links on the show notes that you can kind of watch along because this is not a video podcast It's a audio podcast as you can tell you've been listening for years But nonetheless we'll put some show notes in there for links out to images and if you're far along Uh, lots of you that on the left hand side when we talk about the brick of the keyboard We have a mod key in a space key So typically where the space key is on the left hand side There's a mod key and beneath that is this extra which which is typically like this outer boundary of the of the keyboard It's not used which is a space key and then the right hand side you have the space key And then the mod key which is alternated. Why?

Why why what's with the alternation there is it uh that you can kind of set I don't know because this can be completely remathic be your own keyboard Is the same you can move your settings around as you want to but we'll talk about i'm sure but it seems like you know Why would you have the the mod key and the space key be alternated on either side? Okay, so the guiding principle is that uh every modifier key should be featured Both on the left and the right side because uh in order to access whereas shortcuts. It's just uh comfortable so Just this way the mod and space is accessible by both hands but in a diagonal manner Because if you if you use the ushk for a week then you will fire your brain Uh use this layout or your own layout if you if you so choose and Most of the time you won't have to use the case buttons that you you mentioned and the case buttons exist because simply because It's easy. They are easy to reach uh by by our thumbs so there is a large amount of space there and This way you could make the layout symmetrical.

I mean Feature the modifiers on both sides. Gotcha. We got a little ahead of ourselves. I want to go That deep a little bit later on that's okay What i'm looking for at this point is uh is to kind of escalate this conversation over over the next 20 or so or 30 or so minutes Is to figure out what was going on in your brain in your mind in your day-to-day life as a software developer What made you be like man this you know because there's mechanical keyboards out there, you know There's ergonomic keyboards out there.

Why did you not like what was currently available on the market whether it's open source Not open source crowdfunded or not what problems were you hitting as a software developer that was like i've got to make this ushk Even if it was back in 2007, which is you know almost eight years now more than a little over eight years now Since this problem has been existing what what were you hitting? What happened to make you think i need to build something that's much better for developers So to key uh birds are productivity and ergonomic So if you if i don't have to move my my hands it's uh my mind This is great because really all this started from for me moving my hands across the device looks and it's if you if you use a dedicated mouse Uh, it's also much easier to access it this way because there is a the distance is shorter between the keyboard and and the mouse because there is no uh Evocation block and uh ampett and the other thing the ergonomic ergonomic is It's just it's so much more comfortable to orient keyboard halves You can even you can even use it in shadow width It's all this whole design is compact truly split design that merges as one and we can figure about this whole concept these features Just made sense as a software developer that moving my hand Hence only my finger being able to reposition my the keyboard halves Gotcha So obviously ergonomic keyboard made sense even mechanical keyboards made sense But the the lacking of the remapping the lacking of the open source underlying software whether it's a CAD drawing whether it's the uh The javascript agents with various things will talk about these things were something that you want to bring to fruition. Mm-hmm. So what what were the the I guess I didn't understand fully our question which would be it was really a question was more like a statement Priming you to to chime in like so you've got open source obviously involved here And as I understand it, it's the the software the electronics design file So I'm assuming there's some sort of CAD pieces into that you're actually you know open source on github You got the agent and these are all coming out of the gpl license So, you know to kind of take a step back you got ergonomic keyboards which have been there You know whether they break apart or not Um, and you've got mechanical keyboards where they break apart or not there's various different types and uh Truth be told behind the scenes in the change love members room.

We've had several conversations about um You know mechanical keyboards and how to change your life and as I said too, you know to preface my scenario I'm not the kind of person I don't think that needs this although I think I can appreciate it because there are a lot of people I know that would love love love To make their keyboard their own and to never leave the home As you described and to never do the things that you're describing which is to have to touch a mouse And so I'm just uh wondering behind the scenes You know what the motivations were not just to solve a problem But also to put some power back into the community which is through open source through open source diagrams and those kinds of things Yeah, sure. Yeah, so I I I've been using Kleenex for a year 2000 And uh, it just makes sense for me as a developer to To open up the product to to make it super customizable Right because I've been in situations when uh, I've had a router and I I wanted to use a Surcarded dynamic DNS provider and I couldn't because that router offered me about three options and my preferred options wasn't amongst those so And it's it's in the release trivial to be able to specify a URL to be picked but it couldn't do it and or I'm my sister purchased a DVD player and Uh, put in a disc and then I stopped the title phones were very small and there wasn't a way to enlarge them Which is very the key was because if it's a service open source that that would have been so much easy to implement So I encountered with all these limitations and we are surrounded by these devices Uh containing general purpose processors. Yeah, and we are unable to to exploit their football Dash because because the whole thing is a black box and I hate it So what I hear you saying is that whether it's a dev player whether it's whatever out there There's general purpose software that's available that makes literally no sense to have as you know, in quotes proprietary Like maybe the company's not trying to hide it or keep it or close the source purposefully But it sounds like what I'm what I'm here from you is that that really irch you and to be able to build something that was Physical, you know Actual hardware object that has software tie-ins and to make that software open source So that those who want to tinker like you've said you wanted to in your past We're able to but free to do so and obviously in the end Uh, you know on your github repose you do have the ability to veto or not veto pull requests So that doesn't mean that every single pull request has to be committed back to master But that means that the power of the people is available and that sounds like that's a motivating factor for you Yeah, yeah, number of us thinking powering people. Yep Yeah, that's exactly what the change log is all about this show why Jared and I do this is because we Exist to enrich the lives of developers and there is no better way that we can think of right now At the day's age other than through great community and open source software development So that's that's what I love to hear about because you know Part of this show is going deep and technical and part of this show is is this is discovering the wise the the mysteries of why Loxie and his team would say we need to rebuild this harbor thing and make all that open source You know and I want the listeners to understand where you're coming from because you've been through some sort of You know some sort of past that got you right now and that's important.

Mm-hmm. Yep All right, so it's uh, it is time for another break. I'm gonna I'm gonna fast for the time by three minutes So if you're listening to this and you think man this break is coming just a hair too soon It is it's gonna exactly two minutes and 56 seconds too soon because when I come back diving deeper into this Topic a lot so you want to go even more deeper to all the tech behind it how things mapped out and uh, that's a pun on purpose So we'll hear we'll hear more when we get back. So not really break.

We're back If you thought harvest was only about time tracking check again fast invoicing and payments You can easily create incentive voices and accept payments with pay piles try it bit many more Expense tracking about the mess you got an iPhone or an Android app to go on to go with you snap those receipts and store them in the harvest app You can also connect favorite tools like slack and use check commands to start and stop your timers Head to get harvest calm and start your free trial and what's that trials over use our code change? Well, let's say 50% off your first month Everyone we're back with lots. So we were diving deep. I know I said lots of you know I said lots of because I was thinking about Toy Story anybody out there listening to the show think about Toy Story when I say lotsi because uh one of the characters in the most recent I can't believe I'm going on this tangent but I'm gonna I'm gonna just run with it because lots of was the He was the antagonist of Toy Story 3 and so I said lotsi kind of amount lots of no less Um, we're we're back in the less with uh with lotsi and we're diving deep even deeper into this ultimate hacking keyboard And maybe the best part to start with this segment is uh is the open source behind it We've got everything from CAD drawings to JavaScript user agents Firmware boot loaders where we begin with talking about the open source out there that powers this whole device Okay, so everything is open source except for the cat which we will release in a delayed session Uh five years later.

That is the only way Uh that uh Gain some average on the other all the other components That is the electronics the firmware and the host software are already open source and upload it to GitHub So when I'm on your when I'm on your profile Which if you want to follow on this you can get a back on slash ultimate hacking keyboard And you'll see some repos there the first one that might come to to notice Uh for me as agent and electronics then firmware and then boot would have left and then ultimately bootlet, right And the language is github shows to label these some of their wrong or not So agent is javascript electronics is kicad which is why i said cat i thought other than actually CAD drawings And then the firmware is obviously written c And then boot would have left is processing and then boot would write is c Are those accurate labels that get a mess up? Actually bootlet or left is c just like bootlet or right But i don't know that it's correct. We just saw a processing lab You know, we just we just covered processing recently an issue of china weekly and i didn't think it was c-like It's different it's more Well, the the Arduino platform uses a processing api that is implemented on top of c. Okay, so in a way, it's c but especially p.i Okay, so let's start with agent then if we can so agent is the configuration application used for the uhk What is this is your native language you love javascript so it's your preferred What is this what does it do for the keyboard?

What well there is a difference between what does it do and what will it do because agent is is is a Pretty early stage at this point is a right now. It's a command I application Which enables you to Configure and enumerate the uhk and do some operations but really ultimately this will be a GUI configuration applications Executed on top of node work it that is I think the project has been renamed to nwjs. I mean node work it Right, so this is a runtime. This is basically Chromium and not just fused together so you can develop native applications On top of web technologies and node api's so node node node web kit aka nw.js That agent runs on windows it runs on always 10 and also runs on Linux platforms Can you tell us more about that project and how you're using it?

Sure, so right now agent is a command layer application. I can use it to enumerate the keyboard So normally it's enumerated in keyboard mode But it can also be enumerated in as the left and the right bootloader if I want to upgrade the firmware or rather of the keyboard via usb and I can also Manipulate and query the eep or memory of the keyboard So right now it's rather low level and command line But by building on this low level functionality it will end up being a an angular application angular JS based GUI Application in which you will be able to individually configure the keys and the layers and key maps of the keyboard and all kinds of Function the speed of the mouse movement and its exploration and the whereas at the homogeneous end So this will be a full-blown configuration application Gotcha and you mentioned mouse and I got to mention I got to imagine that anybody listens thinking like now I have a keyboard with four different layers of take of of different functionality that I can tell you program Including the mouse can we talk about the accuracy of the mouse whatsoever? How does the mouse function work is it enough to do? I mean is it painful to use obviously you're not gonna say no, but you know how accurate is it will people really enjoy using the mouse feature this keyboard?

Yeah, so for what it is. It's surprisingly useful. I Immed by the inertia. So when you start to move your pointer it doesn't start with full speed but slowly increments So it's it's pretty useful, but of course such a keyboard based solution can't replace a dedicated mouse And this is the reason why we came up with the add-on modules So if you split the keyboard you will be able to mount additional physical harder modules to main keyboard such as a key cluster on the left hand and a or a track ball trackpad and And the track point right yep So you can you can choose of these more choose and the amount which you like and this is the extension of the original concept of never Link the home row and there is a large area That are thumbs cover and you can easily easily reach dedicated point or devices this way So these modules are obviously pretty interesting anybody listening right now thinking like okay I can layer all these modules are the optional are there future ones plans like are there some that you've already kind of pre-configured that are available And then obviously since this is the ultimate hack keyboard you can obviously make your own or at least I'm assuming you know Are the optional are there future ones planned what are available right now?

Yeah, they are completely optional you can use the uhk without any modules and if Some of the modules are you think you would be using them? You can just purchase them separately use them as you like to replace them Okay, so some you know you said the word purchase there which may have gotten some people like whoa hang on I bought a ski board now. There's more buy. I feel like there's like an in-app purchase so to speak Can you talk about the ecosystem from a revenue generation point to the hacking point because obviously hackers love to make their own things and use freely Not meaning don't pay the person who made it because we obviously want to support you making this thing in the first place To make your business sustainable to keep doing this thing but um, you know What are the what are the plans for modules is there gonna be a module ecosystem you can go to and purchase things describe that As you might like to sure so the product we will open up the protocol Why which the modules communicate with the keyboard itself and uh sort party developers will be able to Develop their own modules and we will also sell a developer kit and obviously the CAD data of the modules So anybody will be able to 3d print their own modules and create whatever crazy inputs device they want to make we could even use choice sticks or well There are a lot of possibilities there Using any kind of pointer devices So what I thought of as modules and you thought of modules are seem to be similar but different So you just talked about it joystick It sounds like we're breaking out of just the uhk Into actually allowing developers to have open source that you're providing to build their own models And then you're using that same open source to build your own modules, which you'll be able to sell Is that right?

How did you mean this exactly what I mean by that is that you've got some open source after that that allows somebody to build their own Model so they can 3d print their own thing if they wanted to so they wanted to Hack away and build something like a numeric key, you know or just a a keypad that sits there only They can do that they wanted to is that what I heard? Yep, they could do that but the because of the mechanical constraints So the whole thing is designed that the keyboard halves are interconnected by These precision machined steel guides and these same steel guides are used for modules So when you can separate the two halves these the same guides are used to mount the modules themselves So this way the edomatius are mechanically constrained to be located there between the two keyboard halves essentially and There are pogo pins that for the electricity and data So there's some hardware that they might need to buy from you they can build upon basically Yep, okay, that totally makes sense So once you break this keyboard apart again once we went back to the earlier analogy 6t GB down to the spacebar is the left hand side when you break apart in 7y hn if I remember correctly Myself that's the right hand side and in between those two once you break apart um Hackers out there that are working with uhk and essentially buy some hardware for themselves to put in between these two pieces or attach To the two pieces once they're broken apart and use open source that you've already provided to build upon it Forget make their own things and potentially even three you print their own actual stuff and connect them back to it Yep, that that really does complete the whole entire cycle of being the ultimate hacking I mean, so when you said ultimate hacking you really really meant it didn't you? Yeah, we're really able to push this as much as much as possible To the cram as much functionality to be hard risk as possible So we can't thought of it on the agent Let's talk a bit about firmware because I remember in our we got emailed from you Let's say about a month ago and we've had some Things going on in between now and then that didn't allow this call to take place until roughly three days before your your funding end But nonetheless you mentioned that once funding was reached you would open source several things and one of those things was the firmware Electronics the agent we've just been talking about here Can you talk about the electronics piece that's uh, there's an electronics project on github on your profile there and they're also a firmware Can you talk about those two pieces there? Sure, so the electronics rep repo contains the kiket file.

Skycat is a is an electronics design program So if you download and install kiket Then you can open these files and you can see the the print is circuit board and you can manipulate it You can even send to a fab and get it made So it's it pretty enables you to to extend the uhk add LEDs backlighting for example or all kinds of crazy stuff So when you talk about kiket you're talking about the same if i've if my, uh, google food is correct If you go to kiket hyphen pcb.org which is kiket eda a cross platform and open source electron design Automation suite is that the same thing you're leveraging or building upon somebody else's shoulders here? Yep, it's just it's the project that we are talking about Yes, the guy could be cb. I know the harbor hack another like adam get with it You know, this is out there already, but you know what open source means fast so we just try to keep up So okay, so this is this is a more open source already out there available developers And you're just building on the shoulders of more giants Yep, originally we used the eagle which is a another popular choice in the electronics design open source It's a community, but right that isn't open source Software and you are limited to but to design very small boards with the free version So eventually I migrated to kiket because it is totally free on a key goal And this way we can enable more people to to hack the keyboard right so the electronics repo is is a kiket project building upon the Kiket ada cross platform open source platform software. We just talked about there.

So it's your salt your open source is leveraging Specs platforms software already out there from someone else that's desiring the same thing you are which is hey I have some hardware I want to be able to manipulate and give back to as a developer Um whether super hacker or not back to open source. Mm-hmm. Yep. That's the idea.

Fantastic Alright, let's let's move to the next one. And so the next one is the firmware. What's what's going on the firmware is there? To what can a developer do inside the firmware that that is notable?

Okay, so the way it works is the left keyboard half sends keypress and key release events to the right keyboard halves Then the right keyboard half maintains a my matrix of keys and the key the state of the keys and based on this state it decides which layer is the active one and it sends out the relevant scan codes via a usb to the host computer and It's more versatile than than most keyboard keyboards because it exposes three different USB interfaces So there is a keyboard interface for right? There is the there is the mouse interface to including the mouse functionality And there is a sort of generic HID interface for communication purposes So when you use agent to configure your dshk these sort interfaces use as a transport so And there is a library that is used for the For a variety right keyboard half that's called loofah, which stands for lightweight USB library for avars The micro going controllers are avr processors And this is pretty much the most popular library to interface with the usb capable avr micro controllers because USB is a very complex protocol if you think about it There are bench rives and Bluetooth modems and printers and all kinds of devices that use USB single protocol So this is a heavily layered super complex protocol and I personally couldn't write from the ground up a usb stack USB library And luckily this is available and open source and we built up on this library Very interesting. So you got the left side and the right side can you talk a bit more about I can imagine those listen to that piece They were thinking like okay the left side communicates that right the right as we mentioned earlier in the show has alternate modifier key is the space key typically is alternated on the left and the right so left hand side is You go back to my screenshot to make sure I'm speaking correctly so the left side the key That is typically your space bar is the mod key and then when you break it apart The right side which is typically your space bar is you guessed it the space bar and so those two alternate whenever you break them apart Can you talk a bit about this conversation that happens between software between the hardware that that hackers would enjoy when they Really make this thing their own between the left and the right So it all starts with the keyboard matrix So the keys are arranged into matrix of powers and columns and this matrix is scanned about a thousand times per second And so this software can maintain a state of these keys So the the state of the keys are stored in this matrix in the RAM of the microcontroller And like I said the left keyboard half Sense since over the keyboard the key press and key release of the right keyboard half And and then we end up with the matrix of keys And then in the next phase before I checked for the layers with your keys like mad or mouse or and fn and based on those keys it It sees which layer is the active one and then a chord based on that layer it goes right USB report containing the These scan codes that are related to those keys on the actual layer on the actual key map that makes sense So it totally I mean it makes sense as much as it makes sense. Okay without seeing it touching that visually as we have this conversation It's it's a little foreign but I'm following and and I guess what I'm trying to Gather this point is is thinking like, you know going back to name the ultimate hacking keyboard.

I know some people that Just are I don't want to call them true hackers because it sort of mislabels the word hacker period But they're just people who love like you had mentioned another to tinker to go beyond the status quo of like making something their own And I feel like what you've done here with creating the hardware and the software is what maybe not where it's at Right today and maybe you can help back me up on this but I'm gonna hypothesize that the future of this thing is that If you're someone who loves to tinker with their keyboard loves to make what they do their own you love the fact that you can break apart a keyboard And do all sorts of stuff and maybe even borrow some of your polyglot attributes They can dive deep into this thing make it their own and Above all else what we haven't even talked about is take it anywhere You know, like that's what I love most about what I think this conversation is about is like this hardware piece that came out of like several years of love from you and a passion for When you when you touch a hardware object that has software components not being able to change those But making what has come from it opens or so that those who use it can and even add to it in enrich the ecosystem So if I'm understanding quickly like this thing sounds to me like a hackers dream and going back to the original blow post on On trolo how I built the developers dream keyboard seems to me like it's really gonna be playing true Yeah, originally I gave a more modest I built that article. Yeah, and The top guys made it little fancier that Thanks for saying that well, you know, go back to our friends at top now Those guys are committed to excellence and outside the sponsors that you've the sponsor note You mentioned that I've mentioned during the show We love those guys we love working with top time because they are so committed to enriching developers lives And it may you know, I think that posts with you and then you know how they helped you with it And then where you're at today is is completely evident So if you've been on the fence about what top to is Go back and listen to our sponsor mentions. We love them We think you'll love them too. We totally trust them Um But moving on to some some future topics here we got to go to a break real quick We're gonna come back and we're gonna talk Uh a little bit about uh not so much the uhk but Who you are I guess again as a soft over give you some of your heroes something that's Um super secret that no one knows about you can share but we're gonna take a break We'll come back and talk about that Our friends will note our huge fans of the show and they're excited to support what we're doing here at the change log And they want to invite every single listener of the change log travel the fastest Most efficient s sp cloud servers on the market You can get a little cloud server up and running in seconds with your choice of Linux distro Resources and also no location and they've got eight data centers spread across the entire world North america, europe, Asia pacific and plans already just $10 a month They've got hourly billing with a month to count on all plans and add on services Get full root access from more controls on the yams run containers or even your own private get server Enjoy native s sp storage for unit network and intel e5 processors on your servers Use the code change log 10 with unlimited uses tell your friends It doesn't expire until december 31st 2016 that's next year Head to a no dot cons last change log is started and now back to the show All right, we're back with lazzi again Just so excited about what you've built here so far and the open source component of it is obviously pivotal So if you're out there and you're listening to this and you're thinking this literally is or I think it might be the ultimate Hacking keyboard hacker keyboard the open source component to me is is um Isn't heard of it's not there so far We talked about the agent we talked about electronics the firmware Which also let the bootler left and boot letter right if i'm if i'm uh clear on that What else do you have planned on the open source horizon around this horror device that is going to get hackers excited today?

That they're going to make it either want to go support the project or do whatever it takes to get 200 bucks other pocket and give it to you for this thing Yeah, so I think the ushk provides a unique set of features I mean there are other split keyboards on the market right it's not a new thing it's been done before But sure but yeah for example the adomoche was our kind of kind I mean nobody has ever done that before or the other unique feature is the stainless steel inserts Uh on the back of the keyboard so you can mount it the two keyboards have separately to the arms of your armchair So this is another unique thing so you can sit essentially back into like a lazy boy So to speak here in the american we have a lazy boy and you can put one on the right and one on the left And kick it all the way back totally in comfort in leather in hack That's the best man. Yeah, and the way I see it. This is a platform. I mean uh It has a hardware software architecture and based on this architecture We plan to build other keyboards in the future like this is a 60 percent keyboard Which means that it only contains the f&uric block We plan to be at an ad percent version.

We should contain the f&uric block plus the fks plus the navigation block and And then maybe other versions but the way I see it this is really this is a nervous system Uh if you will and You can arrange this no you can fit this nervous system into various shapes and forms And it can be a basis of other Speed keyboards that uh that have the same great features and extensibility with add-on sense All these fancy stuff So even even hackers can can design keyboards of other shapes with this same core of Hardware and and software and firmware components, you know on that note too I think we you know it just wouldn't do it justice if i didn't touch on it because It's clear as day when you go watch the video and I don't want to repeat everything. It's out there already Although it should at least be touched on and what I think it's kind of interesting is that like no matter what the program You work with whether it's a game whether it's an IDE whether it's you know You name it the four layers that you we talked about already in even the mouse All the application specific key maps you can do it's totally customizable So if you're playing um, you know fall out for for example and you and you want to configure it specifically to how you like a Play that game you can do it for that And if it's Ruby on rails or if it's in your case JavaScript programming and you've got some specific keys that that really help you be a better developer Then you can remap to that. I think that's really an interesting piece there is that just this The ability to just make it your own regardless of application device, you know that you can just do that and it's it's easy Yeah, yeah, hopefully is it is it easy? It will be easy right now you have to to modify a matrix C matrix, right But but later on if the if agent the configurator application will be in a more advised state that will happen before shipping Then you will be able to simply to click You know GUI application and reconfigure the the keyboard the key map and for example, I have a user of convenience shortcuts So a step for example is used by everyone of us many times a day Yeah, and add step on the factory key map is mapped to the the key of the model here So instead of reaching out for a tab I simply press mod D without leaving the whole row and This may not seem like like a big deal But when you use a tab had hundreds if a thousand or they it's a big deal Yeah, probably a half a thousand for me 500.

I'm gonna guess. Yeah, I think it's a good estimate So Jared couldn't make this show, but you know it wouldn't be a show It wouldn't be a change long episode if we didn't even have a little bit of Jared and there's been a couple sprinkles of it in here but But he said before the modules are super interesting. They're totally optional You mentioned some plan for the future of these modules Um, how will you support those out there who are maybe making modules and don't have the ability to print? What what kind of support can you get back to community that's that's uh, that's building upon this but don't have the ability to print?

Well, we will offer developer kit kits for sale and that way Do you mean the physical accessibility of? Of creating and add on yeah, well, I think there's the software side of it Which I think people can probably get to the point on their own But do they actually want to build something out of it and they don't have the ability or let's say they build it and it's kind of like It's okay, and maybe it's something they want to pony up back to you and say well, can you manufacture this and give it to everyone? You know, is it is that cool? Yeah, we should be able to do that Maybe maybe we should do pause about it later on Because it's if there is only one person in the world who was a module that is just simply not feasible right to be manufactured But if there is a significant community interest Then we should be able to do that and we should do that in order to develop a module you will have to have some hardware skills because Well, some software is easier in this respect You just have to download the IDE and stuff and start coding But in order to develop a physical module you have to have some here like sattering guy on And stuff like that and some experience with The electronics, I think it's pretty much necessary We want to make this process as simple as possible for people but that's already just harder Yeah, that's still to where well, it's you actually have to make something real, you know Yeah, plastic metal whatever you whatever, you know, whatever material working with it's you know, we get so used to this command Z You know, you know, our RF RM, you know to just remove or remove something from command line or something like that like We just used that in the real world Things are real, you know, yeah, but more and more developers seem to go into the hardware right and They are the purchase Arduino's and starting during the hardware And once you get into it, you learn more and more and this becomes natural over time So it's not right science, but it needs some practice for sure, right?

And if you want to create a new module, maybe you also have to order components from the rise, stores like joystick or whatever, right? I like it's interesting to go back to your note before about being a platform and Maybe i'm reading to the lines you tell me but being a platform to me sounds like you're not going anywhere, right? And there's something that there's a promise there so to speak So when you come on this show and you and you go out there and you create a a crowd-funding campaign And you actually make something real and you ship it to people and you open source software and you talk about it and you live it and you dream it It sounds to me like you're making a promise and especially said there's a platform here like if there's something if there's someone listening to the show And they're thinking this may this may not be for me. It sounds interesting the software is interesting the open source aspect of it It's not interesting the hardware clearly is interesting We didn't even touch at all on I mean, I guess to agree we touched on you know the The makeup of it how strong and sturdy it is But when you make something like you have and I haven't touched it I've talked to other people who have that I trust right egghead.io.

I trust that guy, you know He touched it He put it he pulled apart he put it back together But what I'm trying to make here is that if if you're doing that then and you're saying this is a platform To me it sounds like to the developer world You're making a promise that you're going to be there for the future whether it's in the open source Whether it's in the hardware and that if you can dream it and you can build it Sounds locally shy But if you can't do those things with this often hacking keyboard then you're going to be there in one way or another to support it Whether it's through some way to make money from it as other developers or one way to support their open source and help them become better So I'm not a fair statement Absolutely, you are spat on by saying that is a platform. I mean most manufacturers create a single product but we rather think about integrating the hardware the further the software and cloud and and provide the How should I say say it more? I mean Well, some sort of support some sort of support there's something built from it and you're going to be able to provide a way to you know almost a package manager it, you know to a way like if you build it people to find it Yep, and the the hardware and the software is much better integrated than than on other keyboards, which is a Maybe a brace statement to me, but but when when you open up the box you will encounter It's something that you have never seen right in other products and I I don't want to Talk about this, but I want to surprise people so I I rather want to talk about this We have to leave some some cards up our sleeves so to speak Yep, you know, we can't reveal every single thing but we can do what we can't think about it I have one more question on your open source piece and it and as we talked through the agent the firmware and so far the pieces If someone's listening to this and they're going to those repos now they seem a little Let's say what better way to say it would be sparse, right? There's not a lot of Getting started so clearly some documentation is lacking here and one final question I have before we go into some of our closing questions is for those who are trying to hack it or Reprogramming or do other things where it right now it seems like that the resources to do that are a little lacking how soon Will those come online will just be in the individual repos will they be at some of the Some of the place will there be some screencasts about it.

What can you expect to say like hey? Lots of you got it. You got to hold my hand a little bit get me started. How can I get to the whole world of the uhk?

Sure, so I plan to gradually add documentation to the repos. I just published them Yesterday, so I haven't had that to death. This is fresh enough. This is fresh and new regularly.

This is fresh and good Yeah, but I agree that it's super important to hold hand of other people and this will be done for sure I really want this to be easily easily digestible easy to hack on and maybe some grace back to you from the community is that you know, maybe 30 seconds share share what you've been going through like you're just about to close out a 104 funded project on crowd supply, you know, so you've got the necessary funding to do what you're promising to do So you got a lot of pressure on you as a one me and maybe a two people show I don't know who else you haven't involved with you. Yeah, and we didn't talk about that really but you got a lot of pressure on you to deliver Right now and so you've got priorities and maybe documentation and getting started in hello worlds are lower down but not at the bottom So should I talk about the priorities? Yeah, sure. What are the closing priorities on on this like so you're on sunday It's clear.

It's gonna be funded. So on sunday, it may be just be even more overfunded So but right now even before the end of the the funding it is fully funded. So what's next? Sure.

So Now we should start to create the mode of the plastic parts as soon as possible So we should finalize the design very quickly because the mold making process will take About three or four months. So we have to keep started as soon as possible. So right now, this is the fifth generation prototype We will iterate a little bit to make it easier to manufacture and then Contact the with the company who have great defaults. Okay, and then gradually Create mode for the add-on modules and in parallel develop the further develop the firmware and especially the agent By the way, my partner on rash is a mechanical engineer and he is very hands-on with his the mechanical Topics of the project right right right which is very different from outsourcing everything to china and expect them to To make everything perfectly because we could totally outsource right Anything but then Under actually have to fly out Those of times to china or Taiwan or live there.

So yeah, yeah, so there are huge hidden costs So I think it's just great that he's able to to Hop into the car and try for an hour and arrive to the company and directly See where where they are. Well, that's a lot easier than a plane flight than a half day trip or something like that So that's interesting too like uh, yeah, I apologize for not Asking you who else is involved in this because you know, I guess this whole conversation people have been assuming it's just you And it's it's not just you it's counter parts that compliment your existing software level of skills to make proper hardware and to do all the mechanical pieces and stuff like that Yeah, if somebody takes a close look at the u.hk It will be apparent that mechanical engineering is heavily involved because just the just interconnection mechanism these Precision machined stainless steel parts and right all of these mechanical solutions It's very robust and professionally designed and under actually so under actually it's a great mechanical engineering Perfect perfectionist so I fully trust him Absolutely to to be so green Great product. Well, let's uh, let's talk Tim off the call to some of our closing questions We're which were just as much just as much interesting as our previous conversations around the u.hk The open source around the platform the promise the hardware all the ability to hack it to the hacker's heart's content Um, but again going back to who you are Um, maybe the first question we can start with is what's something that's super secret that's uh, not known by anybody else Could be a personal attribute could be an equipment announcement But what's something super secret that no one knows about you or what you're doing that you can share here to them the shows we close out Yeah, so I'm pretty much a Perfectionist and uh, I take code quality very seriously and uh, I guess it's challenging for me to I can work in the team, but uh, I always try to to write super clean code That is as simple as possible and even named the individual variable variables and both on the high level and on the tall level Uh, create something that is very easier to understand and yeah, it's a person that's challenging of mine But I think it's it serves the projects that I've worked on on the long term So yeah, so you're a perfectionist. Yeah, and you're asking for praise You know, I'm being a perfectionist.

Yeah to a degree that makes sense. I mean We all want to you know one of the biggest fears about doing something like you're doing which is days away And uh people are listening to this and I think and this thing is awesome I want it or it's the worst idea ever. I hate it, you know, who knows what they're thinking I'm guessing the former All these opinions over the years right? You've seen all the opinions and what i'm thinking is that uh as makers right as someone audacious enough to actually make something real Not not saying make an open source isn't real But what I mean by that is like Is like we just went back to the promise that you're making like to make this promise to deliver what you're doing Takes a lot of courage, right?

In my opinion, and you may completely agree and listen to me as well But it requires so much courage that you might get to the point of like the go button right the the button that says okay Make it real and the problem with you might be like man I'm so scared that this thing might actually be successful and I have to do The thing I have to deliver so I can appreciate the the juxtaposition of perfectionism and Actually releasing something because the fear gap between those two pieces Can weigh heavy on the person doing it and ultimately may just cripple you and you never do it And i'm glad that you got through it and did it Yeah, but for me it's an over-inner because Quite honestly, this is in my mind. This is the coolest project that I can work on in this phase of my life So Pretty there is no option for me. I just I just I just I just want to do it so badly And I think it can be a great offering for money. So so maybe a good segue would be to Uh talk about who might have influenced you and so here on the show we call that question Who's your programming hero?

Could be professor could be mom and dad could be high school teacher could be whatever, but who is the hero in your life Who is the influencer in your life? Program or not that said to you Lots of you got the talent to do it do it or here's how I encourage you to do it. Who's your hero? Well, no nobody has actually told me to do the Jewish kid, but I look up to a couple of people for sure for example the first Person that comes to my mind is John Carmack probably because I played too much doom back in the days And I enjoyed it a little bit too much.

Right. I think it's crazy that he could develop the tangent back in the days Uh to smoothly run on on on those those pieces and There wasn't open GL or any high level APIs and he had to implement it from from the ground up So I think it's a major accomplishment. Yeah, and there is Jeff at wood created Stake exchange that we're co-created. Just been let's jump before cutting horror.

He's been on the show before a great guest. Yeah, so So easy to talk to as well. Yeah, super smart guy. Yeah capable.

Yeah Yeah, smart entrepreneur as well. I mean the way they built stack exchange and and now trellis a part of you know The ramifications sees that word again You know the real fact of uh of doing what they did with stack exchange and all that what was what we know It's relatively which we use here internally at the gene log Yeah, honestly, what would we do without the stakeover flow? We'd be lost we'd be we'd be just coders in the dark so to speak coders in the dark Yeah, another guy is Dean Camira Author of the lufa library is a usb a VR library. I think it's a beautiful piece of software I mean so so well and cleanly written He may not be that famous, but I look up to him and he's pretty young by the way I'm not sure about his a but yeah, yeah, very talented Yep, that's it.

Yeah, well those are good heroes for sure We you know one of the reasons why we do that segment just for listeners sake that that have been listening to show several times like You know how he's loved the he was part of it But why and I think that maybe this show is the best place to earmark that is to say that you know There's somebody as you've said that has influenced you whether it's directly or indirectly to have the courage to do what you do And that's the best reason why like who is your hero and pretty diverse john karmack and and I wouldn't say that Jeff at what is any less of a john karmack, but he did not create what he created Which was like the dim stuff, but he did this is pretty cool You know what's that exchange? I mean so he's not nobody but they're very they're very different you know, they're Into it to a degree polar opposite scheming and then you know Enrich reallippers live so it's always interesting to see who's influenced you and uh, I guess the last closing questions given That we've talked about the uhk the open source of the powers it and the promise and the platform that you're going to give to uh, software developers and hackers around the world through this hardware software combination The only question I can think of the close the question to close the show would be uh, what's on your radar? Like what's on your open source radar? What's on your software radar?

That's uh, that's got you excited that if you had a weekend you weren't doing uhk stuff Um, you know, what software is what projects would you be playing with and why is it interesting to you? Yeah, so I'm interested in the whole JavaScript ecosystem and 15 that the angular interests me and I'm looking forward to angular 2 I would have left to be an agent on top of angular 2 but right now it's API is in flux and Other than that, I'm interested about microcontrollers and Yeah, oh god this stuff. Yep. Good deal.

Good deal. Well, I will say only because I have to that That I did notice that you did say angular earlier and I didn't go deeper on that for a reason because that's not what the show is about today however There are some conversations I want to have with your run angular that we're not gonna have today So listeners out there thinking about that feel that I feel your pain wanted to have the conversation about it But it just didn't make sense to have that conversation today So maybe maybe some of the time that I'll blow up. You can talk about why angler for you versus all the other options obviously I would be platform. I was super interesting.

I could like to be at a Smart home if I had time. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Well, lots of it has been an absolute pleasure to have deep with you on this ultimate hacking keyboard I think that the promise the platform you open source and everything we talked about today Is something that our audience and hackers around the world will resonate with so if you love this show go on twitter mention it today share with a friend do whatever it takes to Share what lati's doing and his team with this keyboard and if you totally appreciate it And you use it and you buy it and you get it next july when he ships it Well, maybe not in july in particular, but somewhere in this few months thereafter And you love it, you know, it may be months months away from now because it's just it's just near the turn of 2016 So we're a few months away from that but if you get to that point and you're listening to the show and you're thinking man I love this thing tell the world and point back to the change vlog and share what the story's about So lati thanks so much for coming on the show. Is there any closing thoughts you have to share with the audience today before we close out the show?

Well, there is nothing else in my mind to be honest. I thank you very much for them. I appreciate it very much Absolutely. Thanks for having me.

Totally. It was great having you Um, well, I do have a few people to thank I got the obviously you the listeners We couldn't do the show without you your ears are very important Um, and we thank you so much for listening to show and to our members who support us If you go to change vlog.com slash memberships, let me make sure that you are prepared because I always forget that it's a puller It is membership not portal. I'll add a re-reactive memberships to membership But nonetheless if you go to change vlog.com slash membership for 20 bucks a year You can support what we're doing here. We give you access to our members only slack room exclusive discounts from our favorite products and most trusted partners Unrestricted fact S to our archives, which can be googled But nonetheless, you can't find them easily despite clicking around the site and then also if you want to change vlog to outfit yourself with We give you that basically a cost half off and we love our listeners and our members We also love our sponsors those sponsored our co-chip top top which we mentioned so top top big top to you to be on the show harvest love Tracking time with harvest and linode linode is awesome vps is that are just tried and true to Linux easiest way to get up on the internet with linode Thanks so much those guys for supporting the show and thanks so much to you lots and everyone else for joining us on this show today And with that let's say goodbye.

Thanks a lot