While there are green building contractors all over the United States, there are very few contractors that understand healthy home building. Today we're going to talk to one of those contractors in New York who builds up-scale healthy homes. Today on episode 53 of Non-Toxic Environments. Hey, welcome back to Non-Toxic Environments.
Everybody, this is Andy Pace. Jay, we've got ourselves a really good topic today. I've been looking forward to this all weekend. You and I talk about it and we talk to you on our podcast for sure and ideas about how to build healthy homes.
It's exciting to have people that are actually building healthy homes and dedicated their business to doing that. So this is going to be a great podcast. Let me set this up for everybody a little bit. As you know, we've had Rusty and Jen on the show a couple of times, a new home builder in Texas.
The idea of building healthy homes is not new. It's not something that Jay and Andy came up with or Rusty and Jen came up with. It's been around for a while and there are companies who have been doing this, actually putting this into practice a lot longer than we've been podcasting folks. This morning we're actually talking to one of those pioneers and it's really exciting because we're going to hear about how all of our theories that we talk about are actually put into use.
And so let's get right at it. I want to introduce you to Pete and Russ from Healthy Home Builders in New York. Pete, you're one of the co-founders of the company. So please tell us a story.
Why did you start the company? Well, first of all, thanks for having me. And how we got started. Basically, my experience has always been, I've been really concerned with indoor air quality.
And I've been in the construction business 34 years now. And starting back in the 80s and 90s, I think there was a rash of kind of poor construction, etc. And kind of led to a lot of hidden conditions that were left for me to repair when I was in the early stages of my business. So it was a constant thing where we were coming into moldy situations and places where we had to really change the air quality, change the work on the indoor air quality of the homes we were working on.
And then that all led me, just as I kind of gave my business a spin that was where the guys you go to, if you're having a problem with your indoor air quality. And led me to my partner, Jan Flanser, who she was suffering the effects of a home that had been repaired over many years. And when we were digging into her projects, we really encountered a lot of bad situations. And she was suffering a lot of the health effects from these situations.
And we kind of turned that home around. And she's living in the house today and comfortable and healthy and all that. But it was kind of she was doing a little building on her own. And we joined forces and with the idea of starting a new home building company called Healthy Home Builders.
And we're based in Scarsdale, New York. It's kind of a high end market where we've been trying to help people through the selection process and designing and implementing healthy home products and things like that into our construction. So that's basically how we got started. It was right around 2011-12 where the idea came in and that's when we built our first Healthy Home.
You know, it's interesting that everybody who's involved in the healthy home industry, I'll say. And Jan and I talk about this all the time. It seems like everybody who is really involved in it deeply is doing it because of some compelling situation that really drew them to it. And knowing that you started your company around 2011, so this is when we're coming out of the construction recession.
And you know, you have that compelling situation in that your co-founder, Jan, has either chemical sensitivities or you're dealing with mold situation or some toxicity situation on a project. It's really, I don't want to say forcing you, but it's giving you every opportunity to say we're going to do something different. We're going to make a difference. Well, it's caused me to realize there's kind of a cascading effect on any one of these.
I mean, if you have a mold problem, that could lead to chemical sensitivity down the line or vice versa. I know some people react extremely poorly to your regular can of paint and others are, you know, you just never know. So it's really a personal type item for people because if it bothers your customer, then you have to figure out another way to make it. So they can do their project and live a healthy life and they're home.
I mean, that's what it's been about for me. Right. So what is your process then? Because all builders have their own process working with a client from start to finish and bringing them through material selection and so forth.
So how involved do you get with that actual material selection process to allow the clients the opportunity to make sure that the materials will be healthy for them? Well, there's a lot of similarities to just regular old construction, but you really have to bring in the points where people raise the points when it's appropriate for people. And it's always about desire to do the project and then you have to consider the budget for the project. And that's always the rubbing point because oftentimes, in the case of a new home, it's much easier.
But when you're talking about doing remodeling projects or retrofitting existing homes, you have to deal with a lot of existing conditions that you can't always find the perfect work around. But with making the right compromises and not wasting money on things that aren't going to really give you a payoff at the end, that's kind of the experience that I can give people. Like when somebody is truly desperate, like the super chemically sensitive person, they really are desperate. They'll, you know, it can be, you just have to really help them not make bad decisions to the process.
And that's what we do to get them to a project that you have to balance the budget back to what they can afford and what's going to make the home livable for it. You know, Andy, it's about knowing and educating the client, you know, understanding their level of desire to learn what these products are and benefit in the long term. So the folks that Pete mentioned that we've worked with in the past on the, you know, degree, degree scale of desperation is a really to their health, most of which are super involved and really wanting to learn about the products and what they're investing in and managing that with their health concerns and potential budget. And you know, expectations is a big thing.
Right. Right. And the idea that there has to, there will be some trial and error through the process. Okay.
I mean, we do a lot of, we do a lot of sampling for people, you know, and that's like a dried out sample on, you know, I mean, if we're ordering cabinetry or something, you know, we make sure that we get a sample of the exact finish, the exact thing, you know, exact product that's going to be used and get it in front of the client. And it's time consuming. And it's, but it's absolutely necessary before you go in and invest, you know, 40, $40,000 in cabinetry. You want to make sure that, you know, it's finished properly and you have kind of control of the process and know that what you're going to be, what's going to be delivered to the job is going to be something that they can tolerate.
You know, I think this is a common problem. Andy, you and I both know this all for years is exactly what happens. There's that due diligence in the front end, you're doing sampling in the client's testing out to make sure the tolerance is really good. What happens is that gets ignored.
And then like you said, Pete, you got 40,000 dollars with the cabin and it's a oops. Wait a minute. Listen, that's not going to work. So I have seen that.
I think that's a huge thing. And it's something we, Andy and I both stress when we're talking to clients that have any sensitivities. And I go further, I say, I don't care if it's me or anyone. If you don't, if you can't tolerate safe, there are some people, thankfully it's a small group, but there are some people that don't tolerate safe, very well.
And I say, listen, be sure whatever you're going to do, test it, sample it. If it's another brand, please, don't just ignore that, that, that, that idea, because it can be like at the end. I just want to digress a little bit, because I had a thought when we were talking about the marketplace and what was happening back in the past. I think where things get a little squirrely, this is because in the old thinking, it was like you hired a contract and you trusted the contract and know they were doing it.
If they brought something in, the basic storyline was, wait a minute. What is that going in? Don't worry. It'll go okay.
It'll off the ass and go away. You won't have any problems. I think what's happening is because people are educating themselves on the internet. I mean, you can go on YouTube and find out how to build a home.
And you can build your own home just watching YouTube, which I'm exaggerating. But my point is that people now have so much resource information. They don't have a blind and trust a contractor. They can even trust their intuition and say, wait a minute.
Are you sure about that? I don't know. So there's this kind of the empowerment of the client. And I think that can be a little slippery slope, too, because the client can, you know, that's where the kind of a obsessive person.
They get very, very, they're very long and anxious about every decision. But what's happening is it's empowerment. And you and I talk about client power. You got to listen to your own intuitions about some things and then question the things that are happening.
And of course, try to remind yourself that guys like you, who are thinking along the same lines. Right. Portions contractors to some extent to be a bit more transparent and there are levels of playing field in many respects because clients are so much more educated and they're going into these projects with in many cases accurate proper knowledge. But in many cases, you know, we turn to experts like Pete to make sure that the information that had been gathered online is in fact accurate and applicable to their situation.
So that's an issue in itself. And then building that trust factor with the client is super important to healthy home builders because once the product is out there and it's completed and these folks are living in these homes, you know, it doesn't really end. There's a maintenance factor that comes along with these homes. And when, you know, it's time to refinish a floor or change, you know, the color of a room, we want these clients to call us back and reference what we originally presented to them and gave to them and perhaps there's new products on the market by that time.
So I don't think it's building trust right up front, making sure that they're empowered, like you said, and building that long-term relationship with these clients is advantageous obviously to the firm, but also to the customers themselves. Yeah, I like to jump in here and kind of move forward. I know we talked about a list of questions that we want to go through, but this really makes me think of the process of choosing materials. You know, we all know there's no, there's no rating system out there right now that is designed specifically for people with allergies, asthma, chemical sensitivities.
It's all about allowing the customer to have choices that will work for them. But if in that process, you know, Jay talking about these projects where I had a job several years ago where we had to have the client test every component of the home all the way down to the screws and nails that held it together. And we supplied samples in mason jars so they can do the sniff test. And then if it, if, you know, there was some question there, they would do muscle testing or other types of testing to see if there was a reaction.
And that is an extreme situation. And I'm sure Pete, you've probably had these opportunities to do as well. I have absolutely had those opportunities. And it's, I mean, the, the, when, you know, under those circumstances, it can be a very difficult process, you know, I mean, that that's, that just makes it, I mean, usually with people, especially today, I mean, the, the, the, let's say the safe code products are like the least to be worries.
The problems run much deeper into the, you know, the plywoods and the, you know, structural material that you have to use in a build and, and getting people who are sensitive and knowledgeable, like you said, about those products that just simply aren't substitutes for some of them, you know, I mean, a, a glulam beam is a glulam beam. And you can get one that's, you know, carb compliant, you know, California standard compliant, but that's about the best you can do right now. Short of, you know, major changes to the structure and, and the design of the, you know, the design of the projects, you know, I mean, so, so that's what we're really dealing with. Well, and so, and on that note then, you know, you have to use your intuition based upon years of experience.
Jay and I use all the time that anecdotal information that, that, that knowledge we've gained from 20 plus years of working with chemical sense of individuals, the average consumer out there has to go by third party ratings, green seal, green guard, you know, all these different third party gatekeepers, we like to call them. When what client comes to you and says, and Jay alluded to this, they're, they're empowered to do all of their own investigations and all their own internet research, but they'll come and do and say, you know, guys, I've been doing some research and I think we should use XYZ product because it meets this particular standard. And you have to come back to them and say, all right, it may meet the standard, but here, let me tell you what's actually happening with people who have used that product. What we try to do is get people to kind of focus on the stuff that's immediately inside the envelope because, because, because, and, and that at least narrows the range of things that we have to deal with.
I mean, most of, most of, most of the, most of the decisions that people really get hung up on are kind of the finish items and things like that. And that's where I think we've done a pretty good job of, we've come up with a kind of a, you know, I mean, I hate to put it this way, but it's like a least, least toxic approach till you get into the, you know, actually inside the envelope where you really have to focus in on, you know, air infiltration and not letting, you know, cavity air mix in with the interior air, the home and stuff like that. And that's, that's really been our focus because the rest of it is, is kind of so unmanageable. I mean, you deal with so many commodity type items, you know, two by fours and plywoods and things like that that, that, that, that, that when you have a homeowner who's, who's thinking of that, right from the beginning, I mean, the only way to really kind of get them off that is, okay, well, we can, we can make this house totally non-toxic, but we're going to have to build it out of solid wood, okay.
And that means you're going to have rooms that can only be, you know, the limits of what, you know, a two by 12 can span, you know, and that kind of thing. And you're really going to have to change your approach. And you know, I mean, then they see the, then they see the balancing and their balancing the numbers and all that stuff. And, and, but I also tell them that we can get really good results, you know, with, with the, you know, the, the products, you know, on the inside and, and with the, you know, use of good air, air circulation, you know, fresh air systems and things like that.
Hey, folks, it's Andy here. We'll get you back to the show right away. Just wanted to point out that a number of the products we're talking about on today's episode are found on the website, the greendesigncenter.com. Those products, along with thousands of other materials are available for sale, 24 hours a day.
As a loyal listener to non-toxic environments, if you use the coupon code non-toxic during checkout, all spelled out, n-o-n-t-o-x-i-c, you'll get 5% off of your order. So please take advantage of that. And that's, greendesigncenter.com, thank you for being a loyal listener to our podcast. Now back to the show.
It's all about, it's about managing expectations. I mean, it always comes down to that. It's, you know, the phrase I like to use and I don't mean to be little this, but it really, it's, it's, you're going to drive yourself to the poor house or the nut house if you're trying to build the perfect healthy home. Or both.
Or both. Exactly. And so what happens is somebody comes in and says, you know, I've been reading all these words studies and I need to use whatever product in the house. And then you'll say, well, that, that may make sense theoretically, but in reality, it's impossible.
And here's why. And I, so I believe that the, the internet age of people being able to do their own research is actually a double edged sword. And this is why sometimes people can't move forward on the, on the project. You know, it's the, what's the phrase analysis paralysis?
We just can't stop researching and trying to find the best. At some point you've got to jump in and just do what makes sense. You know, I've, yeah, you definitely have to do that, but you can't ignore their, their desire. And sometimes they'll point out a new product to me that I was unaware of.
I mean, like you guys know that there's constantly new stuff coming up and you just have to be open to the idea of, you know, reviewing it and checking out the track record. And, you know, I mean, I'm a builder. I like, you know, I mean, the number one thing that a builder can do is build things that last, you know, and that's really, that's really what I want. That's really what I want.
And that's probably, you know, I mean, I really want, you know, my structures to, you know, be in for years and years and not be that, you know, big of a maintenance hassle. And, you know, I mean, that's the kind of, that's what's real important to me is, you know, obviously the people have to be able to live there. And that's where the clean air stuff comes up. But, you know, you have to really pay attention.
I mean, if they're going to come up with, you know, plywoods with a whole new line of glues that are non-toxic, I'm going to want to know that structurally that stuff's going to, you know, that's been approved and it's got a little bit of a track record going so I can feel comfortable, you know, using that to hold up my houses. You know, I mean, that's the issue that comes up. I mean, I think you said something really important, I know, this is your picking up on it, I should get, and you said, and that is your building homes that last. And obviously that's what people want to hear.
But what I see in between the lines there is that, you know, for a lot of years, green building products were kind of considered not that great, you know, you're, you're, you're maybe wasting your money because the product wasn't going to hold up wasn't going to last. And so now we know that that's not the case. And so when you say the product, the home is going to last, you're talking about all the structural things you're doing for a while, lasting home, but also everything you're bringing into the home is going to last as well. So I think that's a real, that's a real salient point there.
Right. Right. Right. So, you know, Jay, you brought this question up and I'm really excited to hear an answer to this.
I mean, how long did it take for all of your subcontractors to really get on the ball? You know, the biggest problem that we face across the country is finding that team that's, you know, all for one, one for all. And you know, if somebody runs out of, you know, the correct clock that is, has been approved, they don't just run out to the truck and grab whatever tube they've got. So, you know, how did you handle that?
And, you know, how long was that learning curve for everybody? Guys, that is an all-out war every day. Okay. Right.
There is no, no man. I mean, you just, I mean, my team that I have working with me have, they have to have eyes on, you know, eyes in the front, eyes in the back, they got a constant living watch and everybody who comes on to the job. And it is, it's just vigilance. And that's it.
And it's, you have to pay attention to everything that's coming into the job. I have to notify everybody of what's acceptable and what's not acceptable. And then you have to verify that that's what they show up to the job with because they just don't know. Okay.
And then you can't, I mean, you know, when, you know, I, we have our regular contractors that we deal with, but then, you know, you come up, you know, you have, you have new crews arriving, you know, all the time. Okay. I mean, the projects, you know, that I'm fortunate enough to be working on are, you know, multi-million dollar homes and, and, you know, we do small, we do smaller projects as well, but it's, and it is about, you know, the price, ultimately people's budgets come into play. And you know, what, what we have to do is we really have to, you know, put it out there in our contracts.
We notify them, here's what you have to use. Here's, you know, this is the product that's being used or we provide it or, you know, and then again, you just, the guys have to be, my staff has to be just vigilant. They have to, they have to watch everything come in, you know, tubes, I mean, and we have, we have stopped stuff just as it was, you know, the guys pulling the case of caulking in and he's about to start, you know, mucking up the whole and that's, we're talking about the painter at the very end of the thing. One of the guys stopped and picked up caulking on the way because they ran out the day before, okay?
And the, and the stuff they were supposed to use, you know, the boss had on his truck, you know, and this is, this is the way it can happen. It can just happen that fast, you know. So. Well, and that's, that just goes to show you have, you have to have somebody, a point person on the project.
It's, as you say, eyes in the front, eyes in the back making sure. And these, these contractors are subs, they don't do it to, you know, to ruin the project. They do it because they, they believe they know what's best and they have their experiences and it may work on all their other projects, but then it's just that slight hesitation. This is a, this is a different type of project.
Well, from the craftsperson, they have, they've mastered their work with that, with their particular products. Correct. And sometimes you have to ask them to work outside of their, their realm and it's, and you get, you get a lot, you get pushback, but, but I mean, you know, when it comes down to it, you know, when you're, when you're doing what I do, this is, this is, this is, I mean, it has to be done that way. And, and back to the, back to the people that, that you have on your staff, they have to, they have to really care and they really have to be taught and told what to do and led to do the, do the right thing.
And after a while, it just becomes second nature to them. They're always on the lookout for it, you know, and they know, they know the client, they know the client's requirements because again, everybody's different, you know, I mean, you know, for, for, you know, one lady might come up with a, with a product like you said, she researched it online, we researched it. Okay, we'll try it out. We'll see, see if, see if it works.
We, you know, order a couple of cases of it and the, and the guys are working with it. You know, it's, it's new to us and we get to, we get to try it out and find out if it's going to fit, you know, fit in for, you know, the way we do, you know, our work on the next job, you know, so that's, that's, that's, you know, it's part of the process for us. You know, Pete, you alluded just a little while ago to affordability. I guess, I guess, maybe Russ is the question for you.
I'm wondering how, how, when you're about high-end clients, what's the mechanism for bank financing for construction projects? I mean, is there something that limits financial loan officers are looking a little bit less hands if you're coming with a green, what I'm going to do with a green building project and is it harder to finance something like that? Or at that, at your level, does it even make a difference? I mean, it's a different, what high-end people are spawning on an issue.
So I'm just wondering what your take is on that. Yeah, I think, look, money's an issue for everyone, no matter what, what budget you're at, right? Yes. So when a bank looks at giving mortgages or financing projects like this, I think there's a predisposition that, oh, we're going to do everything healthy or green, and in our case, way beyond green, that it's going to cost more.
Look, dealing with banks is a nightmare to begin with for most people. It's an arduous process. Yeah, you have to prove everything. But look, there, there's a, an off-run cost that comes along with these types of renovations and builds.
There's hard costs and there's labor costs involved. And labor, not from a construction standpoint, but from a research standpoint too, to look into these products. And the homeowners that we're dealing with, no matter what size renovation, they understand, okay, there could be upwards of, let's say, 10% more than the typical renovation or build would be. But the long-term benefits that they're going to get from this through the process of educating that customer far outweighs that, that nominal upfront cost in their minds.
And it's not, it doesn't really take that much convincing because these folks are interested in the wellbeing of their families in this home. And they know they're building a long-lasting home and play and house that. They're going to feel proud of. And they are, in fact, and we've seen this.
They're showing off. And they welcome people into these homes saying, hey, take a deep breath because you're not going to smell anything. And this is a healthy home. And the reason we get it is because the health aspects of people's lives really begin in your home and in your bedrooms and living spaces.
And that means a lot to these customers. So, you know, when you're talking about the bank financing, yeah, could it cost a little more? Sure. Is it that much more as it relates to the benefit of the products being used?
No, definitely not. We've gotten really no pushback on that whatsoever. And then we've also aligned ourselves and we're starting to see this more and more with financial institutions that are interested in these kinds of builds because of the quality of the construction and folks like Pete who are leading the charge here and building, frankly, better homes with better products that last longer. Yeah.
You know, that's, this is a topic for a completely separate podcast for me because boy, trying to get financial institutions and, you know, those who are, when they look at a project and they say, well, based upon the comparables, here's what we're going to give you for, you know, for a mortgage, right? Here's the value we're going to give you for this home. I've always been somebody who promotes the fact that if you're building good quality, better than good quality, somebody's designed to last 100 plus years, you're actually going to get more out of the home and it has more value than a home that has a bunch of bells and whistles on it. Yeah.
So, for example, that Pete, you can certainly, you know, fill in here but ask fault roofing versus Vermont's late, which we used on one of the last jobs we did. I mean, you don't have to replace a Vermont's late route for 120 years and no toxic offgassing. It should have a better product cost more, but aesthetically and material wise, it's, and obviously it's got to fit architecturally in such a superior product. And like I said, you do pay a little more, but the benefits of it far out, the horrible toxicity that comes along with asphalt roofing that people think, yes, it has an on off the worry about it.
No, you don't. There's pitches and parts of the roof that those offgasses are going to get sucked up in socks and through your windows. Well, if we could just get a banker to see past the kind of 10 year window, that would be a probably would say, but I think it is more of a just a calculation. How many bedrooms or how many square feet, you know, that kind of thing and it becomes very, you know, they're not so conservative.
It is a positive though. Everybody likes the idea of a healthy home. I mean, what what's not the like, you know? Folks, we've been talking with the fellas at Healthy Home Builders in New York.
And we have one last question that, well, for today, we can really go on. We'll probably have to have a second podcast, Jay, because there's so much good information here. But I've got one more question for you that I think our listeners will be really interested in. We know that, you know, we talk about it all the time.
That building a healthy home is not just using zero VOC paint or using a good air purifier or using good quality windows to bring in natural light. It's a systems approach. It's a holistic approach on how you build. There's always going to be some top concerns for anybody who's involved in this business.
And I'd love to hear what are your top concerns whenever you're building for a new client? What are some things that you know, you know, for certain have to be done to ensure that the home is going to be at least baseline healthy that you're really not going to compromise on? Well, I mean, I guess it starts with the envelope. You know, you have to make sure that you know, you're controlling the water, you're controlling the cold air, the hot air, you know, the vapor transfer, the whole deal.
I really am a big proponent of air sealing and then, you know, making sure that you don't have any weird, you know, air air flows into cavities, behind walls, things like that. You really, I mean, again, it comes back to what I was saying a little earlier about the vigilance through the process. And you really have to pay attention to those details to make sure your envelope is watertight. And I mean, and then it's basically, you know, that's kind of a no compromise thing for us.
And then it's making selections based on, you know, what the client's needs are, you know. I mean, you're going to present them the options and you're going to have to follow their lead during that selection process to get them what they want and have it be healthy. I mean, there's lots of decisions that I make on a project that the client hasn't been involved with. But they are, as far as I know, to date, those are the healthiest selections for the process that I can make.
Okay. And we just basically follow that. We just have a way that we do it. And you follow that all the way through to the end.
I mean, it's not glamorous. You know, it's just a, it's just, you know, sticking with the idea that the intent is to provide the healthiest home you can, basically. You want, I mean, you for clients who have, you know, they may have a lot of money to spend on it. But again, you know, some of the, some of the things, you know, get more, you know, you get more bang for the buck.
They're, you know, some people aren't interested in one thing, but they're really interested in another. And that's, that's, we really have to, we really have to, you know, focus on, you know, what the, what the homeowner wants and how they're reacting to what we're, what we're doing. And you know, what I really love is that you guys are doing it because this is what you want to do. This is the passion you have.
You're not doing it for the accolades. You're not doing it for the, for the pats on the back and the, and the, the certificates of appreciation from the builders associations, you're doing it because you truly have a passion for building healthy homes. Yeah, we were doing it for those other things we wouldn't be doing anymore. Right.
I'd like to congratulate you on it. And thank you so much for coming on. Jade, do you have any follow up questions? Well, I think you said it earlier.
And I think we're going to have to bring Pete and Must Act for future podcasts because I've got a whole bunch of ideas that are running through my mind right now. No, I would love to guys anytime. No, it's an open invitation fellas. Anytime you want to come back, just shoot us a note and we'd love to have you back on the show.
Okay. All right. With that folks, we'll be back next week with another episode of non-toxic environments. Have a healthy week.
Sorry, man. Hey, everyone. Don't forget go to the greendesigncenter.com and use coupon code non-toxic for that 5% discount.