Busy Philipps

Welcome, everybody, to Armchair Expert. I'm Dan Rather, and I'm joined by an Emmy-nominated miniature mouse. That's me. Today, we have Busy Phillips.

She is an actress, a writer, a producer, and a director. You know, we're from Freaks and Geeks, Dawson's Creek. Ooh, almost close, Dawson's Creek. Well, she'll bring out white chicks.

Yeah. Yeah, real feather in her cap. That's right. Cougar Town, and of course, Busy Tonight.

You can probably follow her on Instagram, and she also has a book, This Will Only Hurt a Little. I really enjoy talking to her. Me too. She's really fun.

She has a real, straightforward confidence point of view, and I really got infected by it. I think you will, too, so please enjoy Busy Phillips. He's an armchair expert. So, Busy, welcome to the podcast.

Have you ever heard it? I would expect you not to. No pressure. I was going to tell you, this is a thing that people really dislike about me.

I do not listen to podcasts, and I don't know why. And I had my, I did one for a minute with Steve Agee called We're No Doctors. Okay. I love Agee.

I didn't know we had a mutual friend in him. Oh, my gosh. Yeah. So, Agee and I had a podcast.

He still does it. I call We're No Doctors. And I'll, like, jump in every once in a while and co-host with him. But I guess for me, I'm really, I really enjoy my car time.

I'm like a 90s teenager still. Okay, you're listening to. I'm listening to my music. I'm rolling calls.

I like to talk to people on the phone, like a 90s teenager. So, I'm calling friends from high school. I'm calling my parents. Oh, great.

I roll calls, and I listen to music. Did you have great telephone game in junior high? Like, when you liked a boy and you got his number, were you great at conversing? Yes.

We had our own line. Okay, great. Very good deal. I think I still remember the phone number.

I remember mine. Most of my passwords incorporate my junior high phone number. Two, four, eight, six, eight, four. Wow, wow.

And I think I remember Aaron Weakley's phone number, probably, too. Wow. Childhood best friend. I remember Emily Bebe, my childhood best friend's phone number is still by heart, but I can't say it because it's still her mom's phone number.

Her mom still is there. Right. You might have to, in fact, you might have to bleep out a couple of the digits for the one I just say. What?

Whose phone number would that still be? Well, presumably, someone got that phone number, and if people call and say, can I talk to seventh grade Dax, they're going to be disappointed. Well, everyone involved will be disappointed, I think. I mean, it could be a whole thing.

So, what age did mom and dad take you out of Illinois and then move you to, you went to Scottsdale? Five, yeah, yeah. I'm going into first grade, like five. I'm young for my grade, as they used to do.

Now, everybody read the same Melvin Gladwell books. That beautiful hotel that Frank Lloyd Wright student designed, the Biltmore in Scottsdale, and I thought it was Eden. When I went there when I was younger, did you like it there? No, it was really boring.

Okay, great. Perfect. And it was just really suburban. It was, like, mostly, it was, like, a very suburban upbringing.

I always felt sort of other than, you know, also, I think, obviously, there's, like, a large contingent of conservative people that live there and are raising their children. Well, generally, anywhere with money, you're going to find some conservative, fiscal conservatives, let's say. Yes, yeah. And I think I was just sort of bored, and I was, like, ready for the next thing, like, the next chapter of my life.

I was always, like, looking forward to where I was going to go. Now, quick question. Did you ever get Flaky Jakes across the street from Red Devil Stadium, across from ASU? No.

There was a strip mall across the street and it had Flaky Jakes, and it was basically predated Fuddruckers, but they had a humongous two large bars of toppings. It was beautiful. I loved Fuddruckers so much. Oh, yeah.

We also, like, majorly had Fuddruckers. The young Houston's. Oh, Houston's the number one. Houston's was right across from Biltmore.

When you stayed there, I don't know if you know that. I wasn't hip yet. Nor could I afford to eat there yet? Sure.

Well, that was, like, when we had, like, birthdays, special occasions, a graduation. My parents, we would get a table at Houston's. So what did Mom and Dad do that they left Illinois and went to Scottsdale? At the time, my mom didn't work.

She was taking care of my older sister and me. My father is, or was, he's retired. He was a nuclear engineer. He was?

Yeah. So he has a degree in nuclear physics or something? No idea about that. Okay, perfect.

But I would imagine he's a bright person. Yes. He is. And what kind of dreams did he have for you and your sister?

I don't know if that was of his generation to think about those things. It wasn't on his radar. I don't think it was, yeah. He thought you might wed well and that would be that?

I don't think that that was even particularly on his radar. I think he was just, like, trying to move through life. My mom had wanted to be an actress. What a surprise.

And had been accepted to a theater school, circling the square theater school in New York City when she was leaving high school and her parents didn't want her to leave Chicago. And so she did not. And then did not become a professional actress. And did she put on you and your sisters?

Yeah, I think my mom was, yeah, like, she was definitely, I guess people would think of her as, like, a stage mom. You know, she really was encouraging of us to do theater and after school. And we really loved it, too, because, like, I'm sure you see with your kids, I see with my kids, like, there are certain things that are just inherent. But you see it.

Like, they, from a very young age, they were, like, very performative. Like, they want to put on shows and do things, and that's just in their little bodies. The oldest one seems to be more what Kristen does, and then the littler one seems to be what I do. So that's fascinating to us.

My older one is definitely mirrors my husband, and then the little one is, like, I'm raising myself. It's real trippy. Like, crazy. Yes, yes.

And so, yes, to that point, I wonder, so I, I've never met a power struggle I wasn't up for. Bring it on. I'll do it till we're both dead. That's my nature.

And my four-year-old is that way as well. And I actually had to go back in time and go, oh, how did I deal with people who were ready to go to the end with me? And I just wrote them off. Like, I wrote my dad off.

I have a capacity to write people off. And I was like, oh, I can't do this. Or she will write me off. Like, I can see in her, she's like me, and I've got to change everything.

Have you had any kind of, like, kind of breakthrough? Like, you go, well, shit, how would I respond to this? Yeah, I mean, for me, my older daughter's a little bit older, I think, than your oldest. And for me, the struggle has evolved with all of that.

But I have a hard time not taking it personally and not relating to my kids like friends that are hurting my feelings. Like, I have to remind myself constantly that I am a parent, not their friend. And I'm not acting maliciously. They're acting because they're figuring things out and testing boundaries in my job.

It's to, like, remain as sort of neutral as I sort of can emotionally so that I can show them the boundaries and appropriate ways to be and, like, how to live and how to be a person. Like, me, who feels like I still don't quite know how to be a person, so how am I supposed to help these people figure out how to be a person? Like, we're all, like, struggling. Sure.

You feel a little codependent of people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think for sure. But I'm also, like, I'm, I was talking about this in therapy.

Like, I think people are either raised this way or just it's inherent. They're, like, an individualist. And they are able to sort of take care of themselves and make things make sense for their world. And they expect that others are, like, behaving the same way.

And so when someone, you know, is like, I'm still hurt by you because X, Y, and Z, and the individual is like, you never told me that. I expect you to tell me that because if I were feeling that way, I would tell you that. Especially if you marry or partner or give birth to an individualist. Yes, like, yeah.

I totally agree. And what's interesting, but you're the second born. Yeah. So what I would expect you to have, is your sister even more so a communalist people pleaser?

That's interesting. Yeah, I think somewhat. Because here's my observation. I want to just map on your children at all, which is my, our younger daughter, she'd give a fuck if you're mad at her or there's a consequence.

And I was like, this is crazy. She must innately just be this way. But then I realized, no, no, from the second she arrived in our house, she got rejected by her older sister all day long every day. It's the nature of siblings.

Right. You know, she can't be bothered. How close are they? They're close, two years.

Less than two years. My kids are five full years apart. Uh-huh. That didn't happen.

There's no rejection. My older daughter thought it was her baby. But really, even how about like at three and eight, she doesn't feel put out that she wants to come along and, oh, okay, interesting. The baby was like the baby.

And we loved the baby. Okay. Yeah, this is like a different dynamic. Right.

The baby is like very sensitive. Okay, all right. Birdie, my older daughter, would give a fuck. Oh, okay.

The consequences are getting. There's nothing, we would say disciplining Birdie is impossible because there's nothing you could take away. There's nothing you could say to her. In that moment, whatever it is that she wants or whatever's happening, she'll be like, all right, so what?

So take it all away. I don't care. Yeah. I don't care.

You can't hurt me. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Okay, so ours is flipped. Yeah, ours is flipped.

And I thought it was just because she was so used to being rejected. That being rejected by me doesn't bother her either or her mom. She's like, oh, yeah, the main person I want affection from is my older sister. And it's intermittent.

And I've learned to live through the, you know, the lean times. So maybe that's like healthy. Maybe that's a healthy thing to set up. What do you have?

I'm like, what do you have? I'm first born. I'm the same way you are. I'm not an individual.

We just got in a fight, we'll say it, last week, about this exact same dynamic. Because he wants me to say out loud and I kind of expect some understanding based on just knowing me. You know that I'm feeling this way. So why do you need me to say that out loud?

Right. And my answer is just in general, I'm not a clairvoyant. I wish I was. But I don't know people's needs until they tell them to me.

I mean, I have obviously some awareness of people's needs. But I'm not sure why someone's mad unless they tell me why they're mad. Particularly my brain. I am very compulsive and I obsess.

So if you're mad and you don't tell me, I think of 1,100 options. And I start making up crazy things you can be mad at me about. And I'm convinced that that's what the thing is. And so for me, I'm just better off like, if you're mad at me, you can tell me.

Otherwise, I'm not thinking about it. Because if I think about it, it's a big, big spiral. And I'm never right about what it is. Right.

Right. Well, yeah. It's complicated. Well, if there's a will and you love someone, you work through it.

You just keep talking it out. You inch towards it. Now, you've been married for 12 years. Is that right?

I think from 2007. I never know. I never know the amount of time. Yeah, we don't either.

Her mother calls us and says happy anniversary. And then we're both like scrambling. Oh, yeah. My mom always sends us flowers.

Oh, yeah. Same thing. Now, what type of personality does Mark have? Are you similar or are you opposites?

No, we're not similar. Mark is. You know Mark. I must have.

We were at a wedding together in North Carolina. Do you remember this? Oh, my God. You were there.

Oh, that makes sense. Yes. Okay, but do you remember what was on my hands at all? Just with a baby.

She couldn't come. Yes, me and Lincoln went to that wedding. And she was little. She was two and a half or three, right?

So the mom from way back in LA said she has to wear this dress to the wedding. And I don't give a fuck what she wears at the wedding, right? Just be at the wedding. So we get into a fight at the Embassy Suites in Charlotte, North Carolina.

Even Lincoln. Lincoln and I. And she's not going to put this dress on. And I'm like, well, we're not going to put the dress on because mom said you have to wear the dress.

So now we're in a standoff. And eventually we put the dress on and we arrived right as the whole thing was done. I don't know if you recall. We walked in right as Jen and Seth were walking away from the altar.

Although it was kind of a good hack because it looked like we'd been there forever because they would have been looking forward the whole time, naturally. I swear to God, I thought you guys were there the whole time. No, we literally arrived as they were walking away from the altar. And I was like, okay, well, miss that.

Then we go over to the reception and a couple things. A, she's just getting to the age where she's starting to realize people talk to me in an inordinate amount of time. And we're on our trip. We've come.

She doesn't want to go to wedding. She wants to see fireflies and go to the river. Whatever. A lot of people are talking to me.

She's starting to be uncomfortable. It's the South, which I adore. They grab kids' cheeks and say, look at this. They do all things.

She just wasn't used to them. I found after about 15 minutes of that reception, this is torture for her. She hates it. I go, let's go out on the sidewalk and get a little air.

Went on the sidewalk and get a little air. Six or seven strangers stop and talk to me. And she's not getting more. And I'm like, it's time for us to get out of here.

We went to a park. We found fireflies. It was great. So you were like single-doubting it with a two-year-old who was not having it.

Between the dress having to be worn and then the dress having to be worn. We're going to wear the scene in that respect. So I'm going to wear what you want. I'm like, I would prefer it if you wore that really nice cute dress that I bought for you for this occasion.

But it's like, you're wearing the unicorn onesie. This is where we're at. And like, I'm all right with that. Yeah.

It'd be one thing if I dressed appropriately everywhere. But it's not like either of us put on the fucking ritz to go anywhere. So I'm like, I don't even know what we're handing down to her. We don't practice this in any way.

Okay. So you were at that wedding. I don't remember meeting anyone really. But my memory of meeting you was, I would say, equally disastrous.

And I'll take full responsibility for it. So what I think is the first time I met you was at a baby-to-baby event. Oh, my gosh. Yeah.

Okay. Okay. Oh, I know. I know exactly.

And I met you. I was like, we met 5,000 times. And worse than that, I said, do you? Oh, God.

I don't even know how to say it exactly how I said it. I'm sure it was worse when I said it. But I was like, don't people ask you if we dated? Do you remember this part of it?

Yeah. Because I got very confused with the Phillipses. The Bijou Phillips. Yeah.

So Bijou Phillips, one of her sisters, I was at a poker game with 10 years ago. And I was seated next to her. And I've since been on Howard Stern. And they say, you dated so-and-so Phillips.

Which I didn't. I sat next to her one time at a poker game. Which Phillips? I don't know.

I tried to figure this all out before you got here. I'm going to get this. Yeah. I still don't have it straight.

But I got confused. I thought you were the person that people have asked me if I've dated. Right. And then I assumed you've been asked if we did it.

And I've been asked if we did it. No. Yes. And it was a very weird opening.

It was. Weird, weird thing to say. But had it been the right person, it would have been immediately bonding. Like, I know.

We just added a poker game next to each other. And now I've answered this question 20 times. Like, it had the potential of being a very good bonding model. Had I had the right person.

And instead, I was like, no, Dax, but I have met you like 5,000 times. And I'm the one. You have facial blindness for me. I'm like the one person you never remember.

So that would have been really triggering. I remember meeting you. We met on an audition, like, a really, really long time ago. You and me and Danny Masterson were sitting in a room for a long time.

But you and I had met before at an audition? Or we had, like, read together for something? Wait. Seriously.

I don't know. A really long time ago. I mean, this is, like, early, early days. Early days.

I've been around a million. No, I know. Much longer than me. I can try to imagine what that was.

Early 2000s? I don't know. I don't know what it was. But then there was the other audition that we had met at.

And then I'm good friends with a bunch of parenthood people. Let me just say this. Every context you just listed are my worst contexts. A wedding, mini-auditions, fucking event that I'm wearing.

So, first, I apologize. Second, so I own it. I apologize. Second, I do hope that we're just at a restaurant and we eat together.

Because then, yes. Because all those things, I can imagine, yeah, that I didn't remember that. I was in that audition thinking, oh, Danny and I are in for the same role. That's an interesting thing.

What does all this mean? I was obsessed. Oh, yes. I'm weirdly the opposite.

Like, during auditions, like, I would much rather, like, have a conversation. And for people I'm auditioning against, or you guys really want to work there, that soothes me. So, like, talk to people and ask them questions and get out of my head about whatever it is I'm about to try to go do and get. You know what I mean?

Yes. Like, to unfocus is my focusing. It's a great... And you're in your head focusing, so you can't focus.

Well, you know, I'll go a step further. I'm trying to hear what's happening in that fucking room. So, the last thing I want to do is walk in there and do the exact same thing that this person just did. Yeah.

I mean, within the latitude of what I can do. But if I hear someone making the exact same choices I was about to make, I'll ditch that. Yeah. I really like that audition.

Do you like that audition? You don't like it. I used to hate it, the period you're talking about. I couldn't stand it, so scared, and now I don't mind it at all.

Yeah, I really don't mind it. It's so weird. I could do, like, the first half of my career is kind of doing characters, and then I learned to be me on Parenthood, or actually in a movie, The Freebie. Once I learned to be me, now I don't care.

Because now I just go do what I can do, and I'm not worried about it. No, I just find my voice when I do the thing, and you think I'm right forward or not, and I don't overthink it. A hundred billion percent. That is, like, the secret.

I have a superstition thing where, you know, for those of you listening at home who are not in Hollywood, they give you, like, the scenes that you're auditioning with are called sides, and then they're just the two scenes in the movie or three scenes in the TV show or whatever that they want you to read. And so you bring them in, even if I'm not really using them, I always hold them. Yes, that got explained to me by somebody, which was helpful. Oh, really?

yes because there's a psychological thing for the people observing it that if you're still holding the material you think to yourself oh wow that's them not even off books so there's still another there's another bracket higher finished product right but if i come in with no size i'm like this is it y'all right this is me on take nine exactly so even if you know what you might hold them always hold them and then but then as soon as i leave the audition no matter what my whole career i throw them immediately in the trash the fred savage was just saying the exact same thing tell me why you do it because i mentally have to just like let go and i feel like karmically that's really a good thing for me to do but i did it i throw i'm throwing it away and i'm leaving it there and if they call me again they want to come back or if i've gotten the part like that's its own new journey yeah yeah that's exactly why he does it i think it's very healthy it's like your job just ended yeah your job's not like willingness to go your way to post anything that's happening in that room no before or after me no only thing i can control i mean i'll still leave a tape recorder behind hidden so i can find out what they said what did that happen there was some round table for award season i don't know you guys don't know i don't know where i get my information it's either like you know like a trash website or it's like the new york times or twitter or a friend told me i don't know but i think it was it was one of those hollywood round table women things and she told a story about leaving a tape recorder behind in an audition room so she could hear what we're saying was it positive or negative it wasn't great okay i guess you wouldn't tell the story like left i don't know if it was like her phone or like you know something on and then came back waited 10 minutes and came back and got it oh my gosh i'm so sorry i think i left my phone yeah you have to look it up it's pretty crazy she just wanted to hear what people were saying yes that's an interesting tactic there's two ways to look at it one is hey no one's giving me constructive criticism i feel like every time i'm in these rooms they're not actually telling me what i need to do and i need to figure out so i get better that's one that's a very generous version of it a less generous version is like i think this whole town's conspiring against me i'm gonna get some audio proof of that right the more you think about what other people are thinking about you i just think isn't generally the roads for me that's not i understand i'm not everyone's cup of tea that is totally okay with me at this point and if you think early on in my career i wanted to try to figure out a way to think to be all things to all people and that's the exact thing that you were saying which is that the real trick and like when people's careers actually click into focus is when they figure out the thing of themselves that is they are the only people that can do that they're one unique offering yes and when you figure that out and you sort of unlock that that's when people are able to really find i think success in the entertainment industry but all things yeah like all things yeah i think it's important i don't want to know what people are saying about me all right we're gonna jump backwards now because you said mom you loosely used the word stage mom but she wasn't a stage mom but i'm assuming from that statement that you were as a kid you did some acting like did you audition for commercials and stuff in arizona we did i did i was allowed to do theater you know like in school plays obviously and then um i did like a little after school theater program thing in scottsdale and i did have some friends that had agents in la so i knew it was and i really wanted one what can you tell me what percentage of this drive was yours and which was your mom's if you could put a number on either side isn't it so hard i don't know because when you're a kid you just you can't it's hard to i don't know we threw all of that stuff my daughter rides her bikes and i mean one would have to guess it's 90 for me i mean i had a list when i was little i had a speech impediment um it wasn't it wasn't just my s's it was also my th's and my r's and my l's i remember i had this jar i had a speech therapist and when i would get them right they would put money in like a penny for something and then nickel and a dime and my mom had do you remember that thing in the 80s where people use paint pens and like write on lucite things just is this is this not okay you know what do you want to end up you're not you're too young how old are you 32 you're too young um it was it was like a real moment like these personalization stores were really big in malls they had like a bunch of lucite stuff like lucite jewelry box a little gumball machine that's like a big one i can totally see it and i see it's a bubble letter yes i see in cursive pink and so i had one that my mom got made for me that had like a th on it and r yeah that was that was my little bank when i would get them so kind of initially she really encouraged me to participate in the talent show at school and do the school plays because she wanted me to work on my speech right over comment yeah it wasn't anything i ever felt or ostracized right people weren't teasing you no i just was a little i kind of talked like cindy brady oh sure so that was kind of i think the initial thing and then in third grade they would hold little class auditions and i just got the lead in the third grade school play and then same in fourth grade and then that like becomes your thing right like oh i'm good at this thing you're getting confident i like it i want to do more of it and then also i did have i had a little friend a girl who had an agent in la and would fly out here for auditions for real things for movies and tv shows and you know and that was appealing to me because i watched a ton of television movies right i love like three's company state by the bell love state by the bell for sure big fan yeah 90210 was huge for me now bringing back 90210 is you know all about it okay so you you can't wait to get out of scottsdale not that you don't love scottsdale we all love scottsdale it's a great place but you personally weren't finding fulfillment in scottsdale and then you take yourself over to layola maryland that's right by the airport i was just thrilled to learn this that one of your college sweethearts was colin hayes yeah colin and their college boyfriend girlfriends did you meet in a theater class no but i did see him in one flew over the cuckoo's nest and were you buying it that he was like it was a great performance you fall in love with him on stage sure oh okay great and you were together for a while yeah you know like we were little i met him when i was 18 right when i got to layola and we were both theater majors we did the whole thing we were noises off together main stage guys it's okay i don't want to get too tabloid but i'm just putting myself in your shoes so let's say when i got to ucla i started dating the daughter of burke reynolds and i found myself at dinner at his house and i just left michigan this to me would be like oh wow this is all very close yeah i mean the thing is jacks okay you have to know about me is that at this period of time i had told people this is my book like i said well here you know i'm gonna move to los angeles my mom's insisting i go to college but she says i have to complete two years of college i'm gonna do two years of college and i'm gonna be on a television show okay the confidence i had that this was like not just something that i was going to do but that i belonged there and it was just a thing entitlement i had an entitlement i had real entitlement about this particular thing yeah that's i love hearing you admit that i'm terribly entitled it's one of my biggest character defects you should see where i park sometimes it's not just okay now back to your you knew you're gonna be on tv show and so in college you're like yeah i'm doing this right to make mom happy yeah i mean i really enjoy college and i was also entitled i was super confident and i was insanely driven and then also like i had i had a fairly like i had some trauma in my trauma and i did have like a justification thing in my brain that was going that if i did this thing and like made these things come true for myself that that would somehow balance out or erase or make it all worthwhile and like i had like gone through this thing but then through all that i like get to this other thing this goal and if i don't achieve that then it's all for just fucking nothing right you decided that's how you're going to reclaim your identity and power and all that correct stay tuned for more if you dare so i talk about here i'm having been molested before and i think you in your book you talked about that you were raped at 16 is that no i was 14 you were 14 i'm sorry yeah i think that that was trauma for sure and then i got pregnant the next year when i had boyfriends and i had an abortion and while like the abortion itself wasn't trauma a lot of the surrounding circumstances were traumatic for me and and moving forward from that place and then that just led to behavior and choices that were sometimes not great i wasn't proud of you know and like so that was part of the thing that i was like eager to yeah yeah i wonder for you how did it change your worldview well it's hard to remember before i guess like because it is right you didn't even talk about this when it happened you weren't necessarily thinking i'm gonna label this right no i did not but like that's culturally i think where we were at the time like monica louncy yeah was the slut you know like that was like the thing that our entire country laughed at yeah you know those were the messages that we were being given and we were still very much deeply in the time of like you know letting boys be boys i don't do many podcasts um dax but when i did mark marron's podcast he had read the chapter of my book about the rape and he was like so crazy reading that like everybody knew that story about a girl from high school i was like oh yeah dude that's the fucking problem like you know and yeah i think in the immediate aftermath of it not only did i never want to label it rape i was like owned it in such an intense way that i was like yeah i'm a fucking slut that's right you want me to suck your dick like i'll do that yeah yeah because i'm a fucking slut right like what else you got yeah i like focus on that guy in particular that became very obsessed with him and obsessed with like trying to make him my boyfriend and telling people he was maybe and you know like having a whole other narrative that i built but only then it wasn't that many years later that i was talking to some friends i was like a senior in high school and these were kids that were already in college and so like you know then you go to psych 101 and you're like my mind's blown like i know everything and you're talking about like losing your virginity or whatever and i brought up my story right like telling the story and like what it was and how it was and i guess i had like sort of in like the four years in between it happening me having that night where i was like hanging out with these kids i had sort of like tested the wires a little bit i think with some friends in terms of like was that fucked up like what happened to me like was that weird yeah that weird to you because then i mean i was working on a baby because then your friends actually like you do start actually dating and like falling in love with people and like having sex and that's just a totally different thing like that's just a different thing it becomes very clear that what you did experience was not yes yes and so it becomes more and more clear as you experience something that is loving and mutually has the same goal yeah or even just like fucking horny kids who like you're into it yeah like like just like we're consensual you know what i mean yeah just like healthy sexual like yeah let's get it on vibes and so yeah and there was this kid at that that night like you know when i was like senior in high school who i mean that was rape biz biz like that was you know that was that's that's what rape is actually i was like that's not what rape is like everybody fell on the fuck down because culturally i still have that idea that by the way i'm still so shocked sometimes when i hear like politicians are like we all know that right rape is you know in an alley with a lady screaming with a thing to her neck you know ever yeah yeah and i think that that was what i had in my head i feel like i felt a lot of responsibility and i took on a lot of well it kind of comes with a label and an identity adjustment which is oh well if i was raped now i am a rape victim you know there's a lot to it that you have to so for my my worldview shifter was oh wow some people have a real nefarious plan and i can be duped like i can i need to have my wits about me all the time i now know that there are people around me because i would say up until that point i see most people were generally kind of benevolent or good natured and i was like oh no there's wolves in this world that we live in and i've got to be hyper vigilant against them because then there was for me shame that i allowed that to happen yes um this guy had something i wanted and he was holding it over my head and i was going along with all these things he was way older than me and and then uh so the shame even it took me a gal in high school we're sitting in parking lot smoking on the hood of my car and she told me she was raped and it was so powerful i don't think she'd ever told anyone else and i felt compelled to meet her there and i was like yeah i'm lost about this dude and just saying it was like oh fuck well there's like half the weight just fell off that's incredible but for me hearing uh oh you're a kid it's not your fault your kid it's not your fault your kid it didn't it didn't cure my internal shame even if you tell me it's not my fault i'm still feeling some fault yes yeah wait i mean that's really intense it never worked for me either and it wasn't until i wrote my book and i wrote it out in the clearest way i could which was again about something i wanted i wanted to to fucking i wanted to know i like wanted to be part of something and i wanted someone i wanted some boy i wanted some boy to fucking like me right and i was curious about all that stuff i didn't have an appropriate way to figure it out and i didn't know how to talk about it and you know i was like just i was like i was looking for something like looking for experience or looking you know i was interested i wanted to know what everything was all about i guess you want to be an adult i was an adult yeah i thought i was kind of yeah and like writing it in my book that was better than any of the therapy that i've done about it in the last you know whatever almost 20 years i guess yeah i guess oh wow that was the catharsis that was the catharsis for me but this is so weird i mean what the fuck why not two years ago i had a really fucking wild dream and i don't know what it was i had a dream i was at this place like with a bunch of girlfriends you know it was like a like a boardwalk-y type place you know they just like all over the country like you know where there's maybe like a man-made body of water in the middle with like a fountain and then there's chain restaurants and stuff and people like stuff i'm picturing the palm springs uh i'm all up into many times yeah yeah yeah yeah you know what i'm talking about yeah so so in my dream like i'm sitting at this table like wire wire chairs and shit and sitting with my group of girlfriends we're on some sort of girls trip these two men come up to our table and they are trying to say something to me but kind of like backing off on it at the same time and i i'm like what are you saying i'm sorry i can't like what are you saying to me and the one guy like bags out on it he's like oh he's just a big fan i'm like oh okay cool did you like want to picture i don't understand what's happening like what is the request here do you want a picture and he's like no no that's that's fine man like my friend had you so it's cool and i was like oh oh okay what and i watched where they like sort of head back to their table around the corner and so i walk around and there's the guy that rapes me sitting at a table with those dudes by the way this is what i imagine maybe he looks like i don't know i would know you know did he age well i don't know oh yeah my dream looks fucking old um and he was there and i we had this sort of thing where this moment in my dream where i was like i think your friend said something weird to me and he's like i don't know what they said i just told him the truth that like we did and i was like oh okay that's cool okay that's your truth i get it and i left and i woke up and i was super fucked up like from it like just felt really weird and i was thinking all day about what what my subconscious was like getting out of but i didn't feel panicked i didn't feel upset i didn't feel all the things i used to kind of feel and i guess what i think i came to was that i think that is his truth i don't think he for one second believes that he perpetrated that on me and i think that i'm like releasing the thing that i was holding on to that i somehow wanted him to acknowledge it like i don't need it anymore right you know what i'm saying yes i do i do 100 i felt like calm about it again you said earlier it was just let boys be boys right but it is a part of a big thick conversation much is the whole setup's pretty flawed and it has a very bad outcome a high percentage of the time and so we need to revamp the entire thing the courting the roles we're playing sexually all these things they all need to get revamped i think that 100 but i also believe that's not defending guys too much no i don't because because i could i could i could take fucking shit for what i just said about my own fucking dream but whatever it's my experience i can't feel free okay but uh i think that where we are now and i've been thinking so much about this in the last couple years is in not just the things we say and articles and all of that but in actual stories we tell in terms of what television shows and movies and what romantic comedies are and this is what my husband does but how you change the culture is through the art always and the art that we consume the most of in this country is television shows movies i think we've done in the last 20 years i think we've made like great strides in some directions and i think that our art that's been available to the masses has gotten super often lazy and that we've been repeating the same narratives that are really comfortable for people over and over again and being comfortable is something that we know all americans love myself being uncomfortable is not something like why you go to mcdonald's you know exactly what you're gonna get 100 and you know so when you look at like i remember my sister like begging my parents to get basic cable so we can have mtv that was like that was the big push from leon and she got it and i'm thankful for it sure i reached the rewards of that but we never had hbo my parents had to fucking sign up for hbo when i got vice principals which is like guys that's it anyway the point is that like you know we talk about like how far apart people are in this country and it's like well guys guess what like you took all your progressive ideas and put them into your art on fucking pay cable and um amazon and streaming services that a large portion of the country cannot afford and you know what they can afford they can afford game shows about getting richer about like you know getting rich um you know reinforcing this idea that that's the thing that we all need to like make us happy to you know who wants to be a millionaire like to me that is like a very perfect encapsulation of what i think like then became the downfall of like network television and i just think that we as like artists that work in this fucking industry have a responsibility to not just make like the cool fucking shows not available to everyone you know like they have to be a sailor i don't even know girls you know all of that stuff am i making sense yeah it's not that that content is not wholly democratized yeah it's not and seeing different kinds of people and seeing like different kinds of people have different kinds of relationships yeah take philadelphia pre-philadelphia the tom hanks movie yeah he means philadelphia he just doesn't he can't say that properly i'm still saying it wrong okay okay yeah so philadelphia the movie philadelphia prior to that movie yes people were absolutely panicked about their kids being around anyone that had aids you know you could get it by getting spit on or touched all that stuff now that movie was a title shift a paradigm shift in how this country thought about hiv and aids and it introduced compassion to this thing that took the person we love the very most in the world that everyone loved left and right and he took us through the personal journey of that experience and it changed everything now i worry two things one that if tom hanks had twitter in 1990 or whatever fucking year that was made he would have alienated half the country by speaking only political views so he would have lost half the country right there be it left or right doesn't matter he would have lost half now half the people are going to that movie and they're not exposed to it also the person who wrote it might just think well this outlet 140 characters i'm going to enact change with this and so i don't think that's a super powerful way to enact change i'm glad that they did it through art i think a lot of our best artists are kind of scratching the itch of trying to move our society by fucking tweeting and instagramming and i think they should hunker down and write philadelphia right that's what that's my time we're yes we're saying the exact same thing my point is that like no one wants to be preached to no i don't want to be preached to and i know for a fact that it's the cheesiest fucking thing i'm ever going to say out loud but the way to change people's hearts and minds is through storytelling and i don't think it has to be it's not about preaching to people but it's about showing them a different way to be it eliminates defensiveness because it's on someone else because i'm watching someone else i'm not reading a tweet that says you're a vile piece of shit if you think a that's to me right but if i'm watching a character my defensive nature is not triggered and so i can take on new information because it's happening to this other person i mean that is the power of it right or you can like philadelphia like when will and grace was first on here originally you know i think that for a lot of people it opens them to possibility just a possibility yes and that there might be a different perspective people who voted for trump i don't think that they're watching the daily show or you know even opening monologues of the late night shows where they see the administration and thinking like that's gonna give me something to think about what you know there's no way any more than you and i watching fox news and hearing hillary is like i should be put in prison right this is we're just never gonna be convinced of that thing for us right but if they make a great movie about hillary i mean really good and they get like uh uh michelle williams gotta be my friend michelle yeah is that it like in like 10 years maybe she could do the whole she could run the whole lifespan she's amazing and beautiful and talented in it but i went straight to kate blanchett she for me is my my she's my de niro or my i agree the only thing about my best friend michelle is that she's my best friend and also beauty is such a crazy chameleon she's like been able to do this thing like in her career recently where she really playing real people she really has like figured it out and how to like transform her even her face like i don't get it i don't know what she's doing she's on the top one percent of actors if she doesn't win the emmy for the fossey verdon i'm gonna rage for what fossey verdon what's that it was the fx show that michelle started with sam rockwell and he played bob fossey and she played when burden who was bob fossey's longtime collaborator muse and wife i don't even think they ever got divorced even though he like went on had another you know had other relationships all the all that jazz is was bob fossey wrote and directed that about himself the one i saw he like he's doing tons of coke and he's a monster okay great so wow he had some self-awareness of being a monster yeah he knew oh he was aware of his demons okay didn't make him any less easy to be around no it's like the series is really incredible it was a limited series it was only like uh ten of eight episodes maybe we'll watch that one jinx you love each other okay so much anyway that's it anyways you you come out of layola right i love it i love it we're just 17 hours later i can dance one quick follow-up question because i left it hanging and we're gonna get in for some geeks but having thought like oh yeah i'm born to do this and it's gonna happen that again whereas i would have been like what the fuck am i doing in tom hanks living room i mean like how did i teleport here this is almost too hard for me to comprehend were you like fuck yeah i'm home well not exactly i mean it was somewhere in between the table to be totally there i mean this took longer than i thought it would finally yeah like i mean also that was 1997 so that was also very very peak peak yeah and i mean i think that that was intimidating for sure but they were so lovely to me and i was doing this like uh industrial acting job playing live barbie doll at the toy fair in new york city yes and um weirdly sharon stone bumped into you here she came to walk through the toy fair i guess because she was good friends with the ceo the woman who was the ceo of metall at the time and she was she was also pete sharon stone right right right powers yeah the old guard yeah she really gave me a thank you that was wonderful to be a big star oh wow did you take that honor you like oh she said that probably 100 people no that was special for me okay good that's the preferred way to go through life by the way like a special for me yeah and tom and rita were in town i think he was filming something and colin was studying abroad that semester in germany but they asked if they could rita was like can we come see you at the toy fair oh my gosh no my boyfriend's parents are coming to see me at the toy fair oh my gosh oh my gosh and you're playing the real life barbie right and this was an interesting moment for me because i met colin and we started dating and i just loved him and we went to you know their house and had dinner and you know i saw them at their house and a couple times and then i saw them in public right and that was really really unbelievably overwhelming and like terrifying yeah yeah and what a huge celebrity has to deal with and especially at that point oh yeah i don't yeah i don't even know it was so intense and i was like i remember being like very shaky and like i just was like this is terrible why can we just go somewhere safe like we were safe right like i just and then i thought about my boyfriend that i've been dating and how hard that must be for him i mean i guess you know theoretically he was used to it you're normal right but for me it was just very overwhelming and i did also have the thought even with all my ambition and wanting to be successful and wanting to be a professional actor in big movies and television shows i i had the thought like oh i don't ever want that like that's too much for me i don't know if i could ever do it yes you have to be so special like such a special person yeah yeah i mean not especially like which they are but special to be able to handle it with grace and not lose your fucking mind kindness and kindness she was like he read both to every person that's actually more impressive than his acting i mean that's almost impossible yeah and then in the midst of all of it just so focused on me and really able to connect with me and like i could see them trying to help me like be like right this is okay right everything's gonna be fine you are safe we've made it through many of these moms safely and we will today too yeah yeah it was pretty wild okay so freaks and geeks you're young when you get that yeah are you fresh out of layola two years i lived my dream two years of college exactly as planned second semester sophomore year i had a billion auditions and callbacks it was my first pilot season i had gotten an agent basically because of a barbie job an actress that i worked with in the toy fair introduced me to her manager lorraine berglin who was this amazing woman she was british and just like darling i just think you're gonna be fabulous i just can't wait i have to be an agent she's an agent she like loans me money for my headshot oh wait what is this true a thousand percent in brentwood i worked at cbk in the marina okay man but i also but i also worked at california kitchen in arizona oh my school job sure how much of that bread did you dip in barbecue sauce and rants throughout the day so much how about i ate two loaves of bread every shift i mean i i ate so much bread but you know what year are we talking like i bet 99 ish i mean by the way i was at that brentwood cbk all the time i still used to employee this now like i would still give my number even when i was on television good and they just no one ever questioned it right but i worked at the cbk in the marina yeah lorraine loans me money i got headshots done yeah she was wonderful and set me up with one agency i had a meeting they were called writers and artists i don't know anymore i remember agency and i remember calling my mom from my dorm room afterwards and telling her that it was you know the agency that clear dames was at so basically they seem like they want to sign me they do that's it like i'm not like i'm going to be i'm gonna shop for a yacht that's it right they did not sign me and then she introduced me to a small agency called silver missetti and that's mary and a lot of names mary they were just amazing like old school and they had david high pierce who was on frazier at the time and and they made sure that i knew that they represented real actors not just pretty people right hit their marks then they started sending me out that pilot season it was insane there were so many teen shows that year it was like bonkers because it was right after dawson's creek had hit uh-huh and like dawson's creek was like summer premiere i think and then 70s show started in the fall and then that next pilot season everyone was like where's our teen show right you know felicity was still hot like it was like all of that teen stuff was like really really happening and so yeah like i auditioned that second semester of my sophomore year of college was just me driving from westchester from my dorm at lmu you know into all areas of beverly hills hollywood the valley i had thomas died oh yeah i like was just lived in my car i didn't even have emails and i had to go pick up scripts at my fucking agents right they weren't gonna messenger anything i didn't have any money yep and i was like just in my i just lived in my honda civic it was a full-time job i basically didn't finish any of my classes so i got i got cast in a wb pilot called saving graces as a guest star and the there's about two girls who's who were best friends um and their names were both grace oh that's a great classic um and it starred lauren ambrose pre six feet under and this girl kyler lee who then like went on to be on great anatomy for a million years okay so those girls were the graces and i was the bitchy girl in high school that was bullying them then i got offered the part of him telly and free to keep stay tuned for more farm sharing if you dare okay so knowing your ambition and knowing what you wanted were you able to enjoy that and go oh my god i'm on a tv show and it's all these great people and they're all talented i can see that and it's really fun or were you singularly focused on like great so i do this and then i'll get to do blank i mean i was i was really lucky and because that was my first experience i mean obviously for obvious reasons i was incredibly lucky because it's such a great show and it's iconic and it's like the test of time and all of those things but beyond that just the people that i was working with and the perspective that i gained in a very short period of time was incredibly valuable moving forward and creating a career that had longevity is that because you were able to see the value of being a team player of being a team player in many ways but creatively you know judd and paul and jake canston were incredibly empowering of our voices and opinions and all of those things and we were all ranging in each from 15 to i think linda was the oldest we have the same birthday but she's a few years old i think she was like when she was also a liola yeah we weren't there at the same time she left school she graduated later she went back and graduated later she left school to work professionally because she was getting so many jobs but i knew her because she still lived with her friends from college right you do and her roommate jason was my ta in um theater shop like class or whatever right so so she was around and everybody knew who she was and she was just always the greatest yeah and you know moving forward from freaks and geeks and being on different types of shows with different types of producers and different kinds of messages that are being sent to you from the creators in charge i feel really really lucky that freaks and geeks was like my first your education on how to do this how to do it and that there's and that things are possible that like that like you can create your own stuff because at the time too i'm sure you remember like that wasn't obviously it's for youtube it's like really like the internet and like you're not creating your own stuff for yourself to start in you're an actor for hire and you are like lucky to get a job and you need to go and do your job and that's it that's the beginning and the middle and the end of the fucking story as far as everyone was concerned at that time i had a chance to interview met ryan like two years ago at bentonville film festival and i was like looking through her and she's really into directing now she loves it it's like lit her up and i was talking about her early career and i'm like you know it's so crazy to me because here you are you're like the biggest movie star in the world and you know at what point were you like i want to dictate the stories and she said what are you talking about that wasn't a thing you need to produce your own stuff right i'm the biggest movie star in the world like i don't get to make the stuff i'm just in the stuff yes you gotta wait for a phone call yeah you wait for that phone call And you're shown the project and, like, you know, you're in a lucky position at that point in the 90s that you're given the best of the best and you can pick and choose. And so for me, the Judd's way of being and helping sort of cultivate new talent, that was just something that he obviously clearly always did, you know, and empower and empower our voices. And it was just super collaborative. It was like, well, what do you guys think?

Right. What do you think is valid? Right. You know, I moved on to other shows and other movies and things where they're like, oh, no, give the fuck what you think.

Right. Hit that mark right there, that T, you're yellow. Yeah. So when you see that yellow, you see them right there and see the things that are on the page.

Yeah. And then you get your paycheck and we're going to send you on your way. But I think it was really showed me like a different way to be and the way things could be. And the way things now, obviously, have ended up.

Yeah. And then you moved on from there to Dawson's Creek, which you just mentioned, right? You joined that mid, it was already running. Yeah.

It was the last two seasons of the show, like the college years. And did you like the show before you went? No, I haven't watched it. Oh, you haven't watched it.

Because that would have been really fun to join the world if you had loved the world. It was huge. Wait, have you ever joined a cast of a show that you're a fan of? No, I haven't.

But I would love to. Like, I would love to go beyond Peaky Blinders and get to live in that world that I love for a few months. Or maybe it would go sideways in my own head. I, like, have always had this feeling like it would ruin it.

Right. And by the way, that's, like, advice I find myself giving to young actors who are overthinking how good the project they're in is or isn't. I'm like, you don't have to be in every great show that you like. It's okay to like those shows.

You don't have to be involved with them. So there's part of me that, yeah, it's like, it's a little unhealthy to, like, need to be in something you like. Or maybe even when I go, like, just enjoy the thing you like. Like, to me, like, the good place, do you know that I'm the biggest good place fan?

I don't know that. Well, it is, like, truly the, one of the only things that has brought me true joy in the last several years. Oh, that's so nice. That is really nice.

And is it the writing? Is it the cast? Is it the accumulation of all the things? It's just, it's also, it wins all across the board.

It's also fucking fantastic. What it's saying, what it's trying to say. That's not what I'm talking about. My shirt is actually a perfect example of somebody who is, like, meeting the people with the art.

It's not alienating. It's not. It's also, like, pushing people to think a little bit differently, a little bit more critically, to see things what I'm talking about. Yeah, he has figured out a way to put it into the America box.

Yeah, he's not shoving it down their throat, just, like, presenting it in one way. Yeah, he's the best. But anyway, yeah, no, I'm, like, obsessed with The Good Place. I was, like, talking to Dave Miner, you know, who represents my shirt and his manager, he's a producer on the show, and I was, like, because he was one of the producers on this night, because Tina said, and I was, like, do I want to, can you ask, should I be on, do I want to be on the last season of The Good Place, like, as an extra?

Like, should I get in there? Like, is that something I should do? You know what I mean? Like, like, like, I wanted to kiss lunches.

Oh, no, huh? Were you generally in relationships throughout all this time? Yes, I was always that person. When I was dating this guy who I went to high school with, and then we reconnected, and so when I was on Austin Street, I, like, was in a really long-distance relationship with a dude who was living here, and I was in Wilmington.

Right. Were you doing anything in this period, like, that you would now label pathological? Either either drinking or doing drugs? Oh, yeah.

I was drinking so much. Okay, okay, okay. Yeah, because it's very lonely down there. You've joined a show where everyone's friends, and you're, like, trying to figure out what did you play the...

They weren't. Oh, they weren't? Okay, I don't even know. I just assumed they were.

No, they weren't. They were, like, over it, you know? And they were just because they all had, like, become hugely famous from that show. Yes.

And then, you know, James had gotten paid, like, no, I remember, it's not like this is what he talked about, but, like, you know, James had gotten, like, a million dollars for Varsity Blues. Oh, by the way, he was great. I mean, he's like, I don't want your life. Did you say that a lot to people?

I was just on a show with Ashton for the last year. Oh, yeah, yeah. It was who could beat the other person in a scene to say, I don't want your life. We would add it nonstop.

Of course, it's never going to make the show, but we couldn't resist. Yeah, we loved it. Yeah, the great things to say. But, you know, it's very universal.

But they were all, like, settled down and living these lives that were pretty quiet, I think, by that point. And there were, like, occasions where we would all hang out and stuff. And Saturdays and Sundays, one of the first 80s had, like, a great boat, and we would go out and have our banks. And, like, you know, it was nice.

And they were very inclusive to me. There also wasn't, like, it wasn't season one of a show where everybody's, like, fucking psyched to be there. Enthusiastic. Yeah, Shal had already put down roots in New York, so she was, like, flying up there.

And I didn't even know she was on that show. That's wild. She would be probably happy about that. Well, I was just thinking when I learned that today, I was thinking, well, she certainly transcended whatever baggage that came with.

She clearly... I think that all of the young actors who, like, achieved a very high level of fame at that period of time, like, the late 90s, early 2000s, I think that they had very clear choices, distinct choices to make. And, like, you could go for the thing where you do the big teen horror movies and, like, you know, like... That would have been me.

I'd be like, how much money? I'd take money, yeah. And Michelle had done one of those, and it didn't feel good to her, you know, and she didn't like it. And so she just really quietly was like, I'm going to go to a Williamstown Theater Festival, and I'm going to, like, move to New York, and I'm going to, you know, get in with, like, the indie film community in New York.

Then she never sat on the call sheet for, like, this movie with Patty Clarkson and Peter Dinklage, or whatever you want about it, and she really smartly used, like, the amount of money that she was making on Johnson's Creek to, like... Survive throughout that transition. And to, like, build herself as an artist in her resume, and, like, it's really admirable what she's accomplished. I don't know.

No one's ever written the article, but, like, that's the fucking article as far as I'm concerned about her career. Right. Yeah. By the way, you know, we didn't say it to you, but maybe it was already explained you, but anything you don't want, you just tell us.

We're not like TMZ. We don't really... That was the rule on my talk show, too. That was the thing on my talk show.

I was like, I'm not trying to, like, catch anyone in fucking bullshit. There's plenty of outlets doing that. It's not like I feel like the urge to... It's also, like, that whole thing is, like, you know, a thing I just don't buy into, because I think it feeds all of the stuff.

One of the reasons why I wanted to do a late-night talk show interview with celebrities element to it was as someone who's, like, done it for so long to reclaim the narrative. That doesn't have to be salacious. It can be so fun. It can be easy.

And also, there is value to, like, doing press as a performer, as an actor. Like, you know, you can show, I don't know, a nice side of yourself that you've always wanted to show. I don't know. Whatever the fuck it is.

I just wanted to give people, like, you have to do press tours anyway. Let's make it as painless as possible. Yes. Okay, so, post-housing trick, you're on ER.

And then, substantially, I'd probably say, at least financially for you, and longest time you were on Cougar Town for years. Yes, but you skipped the thing that I get approached about at least four times a week. Oh, let me guess. Was Terry Crews in the movie?

Terry Crews was in the movie. White Jack. It was super fun and so dumb, and we knew, you know, we were all on board for the fun and dumbness of it, and it came out, and just, not only were the reviews brutal, but it did not do well at the box office. It did?

I feel like, no, this is the funny thing about Memories. I feel like that movie was a hit. I can still see the ad with Terry in the back of the car, dancing with the shirt on. Yeah, for sure.

Of course. It's, like, iconic. But, no, Dodgeball had come out to the week earlier. Oh, and just clean.

Yes, yes. And so then, I think White Jack's was, like, the second week of Dodgeball's opening, so it wasn't even the number one comedy. It was also, literally, that was the exact moment there was a paradigm shift. Correct.

Yeah, so, like, all those movies, like, White Jack, had done really well for 10, 12 years, and then now it was time for Vince and all those guys in that book. Mm-hmm. And Will Ferrell and the sports movies, which I, you know, have the story credit on. What sports movie?

Blades of Glory. You have the story credit on that? Yes. I had, oh, my goodness.

It's a whole deep dive. I had no idea. It's a wild journey about being a woman in this industry and having men take your voice and gaslight you. It was a whole, really, the chapter in my book.

Okay. And it's a lot. Yeah, yeah. But anyway, White Jack, oh, so White Jack did too well.

Okay. And I was devastated, because I thought, like, it was going to be the thing. Like, I thought it was going to do for me, like, what the scary movies did for Anna. Right, sure, sure.

I was ready for that moment. Yeah. And it did not come. Right.

And I was very sad. But, that being said, every year since then, it has only grown and grown and grown. Oh, I bet. It's been, like, 14 years or something.

It was just on the other night. It was, like, on one of the HBO channels the other night. Right. Yeah, there's certain movies where you're like, oh, fuck yeah, I'll sit right.

Yeah, yeah. Every five minutes, there's going to be Joker. You thought they were going to be, like, what I discovered is that I'm just bad. I'm totally bad at picking.

Me too. And I'm totally bad at knowing what's good for me. Oh, my God. That's what's happening.

How have we not hung out until this moment? Yes. I feel like in the last four years, I've figured some stuff out. But, previously, in my career, I picked terribly.

I thought, I didn't get Freaks and Geeks. I'm just going to be totally honest. I was like, I'll do this, but I do not get it. There you go.

There you go. And I didn't want to do Parenthood not to do anything like the show, because I was in movies, and I was afraid if I did TV, I'd never be in movies again. And you didn't know that that was, like, literally one year away from, like, Meryl Streep. Mass migration to TV.

It's the life, man. I mean, ER was great even for me. That was fun. And you did how long on ER?

I just was on one season, and then I did, like, one episode in the next season, and then I left. I just got married. The writer's strike, a big writer's strike was just about to happen. Yeah.

And I have time for both my pregnancies to work. Okay. A real planned parenthood situation here. Yeah.

And so, because I knew it was going to be a truncated pilot season, and I wasn't, like, a regular on ER. I was just on, you know, recurring. So I chose to kind of, like, opt out, and then I got pregnant with Birdie. The writer's strike did happen.

And then Birdie was little. I had some sad auditions, and then I got figured out. And I'm friends with Bill. Yeah.

Unless he's completely lying to me about who he truly is, he seems like one of the funnest people you could probably work for. Bill Lawrence, the creator. Or did he create this? He co-created it with Kevin Beagle, who was a writer that I think had worked on Scrubs with him.

And I think so. Oh, my gosh. I mean, I could have said that and maybe made that up. Monica, well, yes, we have a fact check.

Oh, great. I love that. I wish I had that on my autobiography. So Bill is, like, the greatest.

And because he's been married to an actress forever, he's, like, understanding of all of that part of it, too, of what it is to be an actor and to have a family. And it was just, like, the perfect job at the perfect time for me and something that I had an incredibly great time doing. And it was good for me at that time to have these women I was working with who, you know, had children. And I could kind of see, like, the future because I was so in the baby thing.

And so... Were you guilt-ridden to be... Oh, all of it. All of it.

Guilt-ridden. But also, I did have postpartum anxiety. I, like, was convinced at every turn that I was, like, fucking birdie up. You know, like, I was just ruining everything.

And I didn't, you know, I didn't have a nanny the first year of her life. So even when I did the pilot, I, like, asked the lady who had been cleaning my house to come with me to work with the baby and stay in my trailer. I didn't know how to do anything. No one told me.

And I was relatively on the early side of friends of mine who had babies. I was 29. And so even though my friends back home had had babies, had kids, I was like, wait, but how do I do this thing with the baby? But there is a guilt that's unique to women.

And it's shameful that you guys are bridled with this. But, like, for even my wife, if she's at home with a kid, she feels guilty because she's not being a strong woman who's pursuing her dreams. Defining, you know, like, what the patriarchy has sort of ingrained into all of our beauty. Well, the bad news is, I think all that's happening is now we two are taking on the guilt.

Like, I think basically I relate to her. I feel guilty if I'm working. I feel guilty if I'm at home. But that's progress.

I guess. I think progress would be no one feels guilty all the time. Maybe we feel guilty and then no one. But maybe not.

Maybe that's the way through is, like, through the fire, right? I don't know what we have to do. So, like, maybe we all have to, like, go through this thing where we're, you know, we all feel like shit. And then maybe.

But I think that, like, it's modeling a different thing for kids. And they see a different, like, the participation and the dads and the moms and the moms and the dads and the dads and all that stuff. And so, again, it's about possibility, right? And so, like, we know what we see.

And that's what can become possible. Yeah, yeah. Modeling versus talking. Exactly.

It's like, everyone needs to let off the throttle a little bit about us doing this perfectly. Yeah. Well, that's the thing. I mean, like, when you asked me right in the beginning, like, what did your dad think, dream about for you?

I was like, I don't fucking know. Like, I don't think my dad gave a thought. He was just like, I don't know, these are my kids. Like, my kids are going to do something.

They're bad. I guess there was probably because most of my family on both sides had higher education. There was, I assume, an assumption I was going to go to college and do something and, like, have a career. But I'm like, I don't know what these people do.

You know, it's so funny because I don't remember. My mom did, like, earthen crafts and stuff with us. And she, like, once she went back to work, she still was, like, the Girl Scout troop leader and, you know, did, like, participated at school and stuff like that. But I don't remember my mom ever, like, playing Barbies with me or, you know, like, getting down on the ground and playing with me.

And that is something that, like, our generation, as we parent, so many parents I see, like, getting down on the ground and, like, really getting in there. Oh, no, the activity my dad mapped out for us when I would visit him on the weekends for he and I and my brother would go to fucking Aco Hardware so he could stroll aimlessly for two and a half hours through there. But, no, he's got no project planned or anything. And that was our day.

This is so funny. This weekend on Saturday, we were just, like, running errands with our kids. And the little one is, like, playing tennis now. She really likes it.

And so I don't want to, like, turn her into the thing where I'm making it, like, be her thing. But I do want to, like, encourage her to keep doing the thing. So we went to go get her a racket at this place called The Racket Doctor. And it was hot and little running errands.

We were going to get her a thing. Right. It's for her. For her.

And before that, we had got my older daughter a thing that was, like, for her that she needed but that she wanted. It was, like, a need but also a want. And these girls were being so whiny and jerky in the backseat. And I was like, do you guys know what my dad made us do on weekends?

First of all, the only thing that was allowed to be on television ever were car races. Oh, God, I would have gotten along great with him. That's it. Just car races.

And then we would get a car and we would go one or two places. We would go to Costco. Oh, yeah. Which was actually kind of fun because of samples.