Chris Herring

Before we get started, I wanted to tell you about another great podcast. The SV Pod was Scott Van Pelt and Stanford Steve. They bring you the insight you need to know during March Madness, as well as their stories about being dads. That's cool.

And a steady mix of things they hate. Listen to the SV Pod wherever you get your podcasts. And now the low. Welcome to the low post podcast on Monday morning from a hotel room in Los Angeles, California, where last Friday I recorded an episode with Kevin Pelton going through all the discrete races in the NBA, the race for six in the West, the race for 10th in the West, the race for 2nd in the West, the race for all the play in spots in the East.

And I said to Kevin Pelton, you know, I have this race in the West. For the fourth seed, the Warriors are in it on Monday. This could all look completely different. And sure enough, a weekend in the NBA can change a lot of things.

The Warriors poop the bed again on the road. Every single road game is just getting tired. So I'm there down to seventh there, 500. The Sixers just keep destroying everyone overtook Boston for number two in the East.

The Clippers rebounded from a loss to the magic without Kawhi Leonard and continue to look pretty and good without Kawhi Leonard. They're creeping, creeping, creeping into solidifying a top five and maybe the number four spot. Everything changes every night tonight. We have Minnesota trying to end a losing streak in New York.

We have Philly Chicago, the first set of a two game back to back or home. I guess it's a back down. It's a literal back to back with their playing each other twice in a row. Big for the Bulls.

Hell bent on the 10th seed. There's a little bit of separation now between the Bulls at 10 and the wizards and the Pacers at 11 and 12. We have the Warriors going on the road again. And Chris Herring, if they lose to the Houston Rockets on the road, I might decide right then in there in a fit of rage and frustration that I am done waiting for the Warriors to become the Warriors again.

That is what it is. Is that steak tonight? Just another Monday in the NBA in the play in the year with 10 games to go. Best selling author, Sports Illustrated columnist, podcaster, writer, newsletter guy.

Chris Herring. How are you? I'm good. This is my second large coffee of the morning in Los Angeles.

Ha ha ha. That probably explains that. Although you also do this each time I come on. I'm honored to join you as always.

How are you? I'm good, man. It's crazy. So let's just before we're going to talk about six minutes of the year, which is a very interesting race.

I love to do these little awards things with 10 games left, sort of a snapshot of where we are. But I just gave a bunch of stuff that happened over the weekend. Everything changes every freaking night now. It's so wild.

It's been three days since I've talked about the NBA. You haven't come on in a while. What was the most interesting, disturbing, encouraging, whatever thing that happened over the weekend in the eyes of Chris Herring? I mean, part of me, because certain things have just been the way they've been for a while now, like we keep waiting for the Warriors to learn how to win on the road and different stuff like that.

So to me, I'm kind of interested in the stuff that is kind of still ongoing, but is still somewhat of a new trend, like the nuggets struggling. And to me, it's just strange because I also feel like it's a good entry point to just talk about the West in general of like you, any team in the West, even the Kings who played really, really well lately, I feel like it would be a very easy team to be like or a very easy conference to just kind of say any one of these teams could be out within the first week and a half, two weeks of the playoffs and it wouldn't be stunning. And any team could make it to the second round or the conference finals and it might not be totally, totally stunning either. And I think that that's only amplified by the fact that the nuggets have struggled to even when they've won, haven't necessarily looked really great doing it.

Essentially, the worst defense in the league for the last couple of weeks. So to me, I'm kind of intrigued by that just because there's not really like a key injury to explain it. There's not a key guy missing that explains it. It's just they're not playing well.

And that's even with the Oak Ridge putting up good numbers, which also I think is an interesting talking point just from the standpoint of this. As I've heard, you lament and a lot of people have lamented the MVP race, which, you know, I thought was starting to look like it was his award to lose at one point this season. But obviously when you go through losing streak and your counterpart that is essentially not going to raise with you as playing well and his team is playing really well, it tightens that up to, I would imagine I saw the odds for that, essentially neck and neck now. So that's what I just continue to kind of keep an eye on.

I think it's interesting. So a number of things Western conference related that you just hit. I will ask you the same question that I asked Kevin Pelton and I asked myself last Friday, which is you mentioned the nuggets, you mentioned the Kings. We haven't mentioned John Moran is going to come back this weekend.

What that means. Grizzly is Kevin Durant is still out in Phoenix on and on and on. Based on what we know right now, today, Monday, March 20th, 9 40 a.m. Pacific time and we know a little bit more than we did last Friday when I asked Kevin Darvin Ham indicated last night at the Lakers game that LeBron is going to come back at some point during the season or that's the plan.

Anyways, we got a little clarity on that. The Durant and Andrew Wiggens time tables are a little bit less sort of clear, but let's let's be optimistic. I guess if we choose to who would you pick right now to win the West? This is a non-binding picture.

It's a fun pick. Don't worry about it. Not good. Would you pick based on not if everyone's healthy, not if all these ideal things happen, just based on what we know now.

You know what I would do and I thought about this this morning. I think it bodes well for Phoenix that if all these other teams are still trying to figure stuff out, that it doesn't put Phoenix anymore behind the eight ball of getting cohesion with Durant also. And I don't really suspect this, but I'm always that person that at the beginning of the season, my first year covering the NBA was 1213 that the Knicks. So it was like the last time Knicks fans were having this much fun, basically.

Fifty four games. Fifty four games. They were two seed. Some people thought that they could realistically get to the conference finals and take out.

Roy Hibbert. Roy Hibbert. Nick's in their way. Dominant series.

Dominant series by Roy Hibbert. It was. But because of that year, I think it's always made me more. That was a year where Carmella Anthony ended up playing power forward because Amari Stautomar kind of got hurt or had a messed up knee right before the season.

And it kind of forced the Knicks to play around with their lineups a little bit more. So they played lineups at the beginning of the season that they really hadn't rolled out at all. They had like six new guys on that team. Jason Kidd was on that team in his last year.

And so they were running out with two point guard lineups with Kid and Felton. And it made me wonder for a while because the Knicks jumped out to the best starting the league and a lot of it had to do with their spacing and playing all at the four. But it made me wonder like do teams that haven't had that there's really no film on or very limited film on is there something that they benefit from out of the gate? Because essentially like it's kind of a crapshoot as how you're going to defend them and how you're going to play them.

So I know that obviously Durant got a couple games in with them, but there's a part of me that wonders like you will not have seen some of the counters that they're going to throw out there. Some of the sets that they could potentially implement or other things like that. Kevin Durant, we've talked about how he's kind of the most seamless superstar that you just plug into something kind of a plug and play superstar. So I think that all the things that people have wondered about and even, you know, some of my colleagues at SI have said like, man, I don't think you can realistically put the sons right there as like the favorite with the ramp, not playing, but we're looking at the Lakers and their situation and maybe them becoming more of a threat if they can make it in and they're healthy and they've got a new rotation of guys.

We're talking about the Warriors not being able to win on the road and they would need to potentially win four in a series or not four road games, but they did win four games in a series and at least one on the road. If they're going to win as a lower seed, the Nuggets are doing what they're doing. That's grisly, as you just mentioned, and a lot of people or a lot of people just kind of assume that some of these teams are going to be taking aim at the Kings. I don't know if anybody's realistically going to tank their way into a spot to gun for anybody because I think that the standings are just too close.

But with it being topsy turvy for basically everybody at this point, I do think that that bodes well for a team like Phoenix. So I answered Phoenix and I don't need to repeat it. You just summed it up very well. Kevin Pelton said, if it's chaos and you're asking me to make a pick now, I'm just going with the team that has the best record at home court advantage.

So he went with Denver and I spent some time with the Kings. The Kings were in New York last week. I can tell you this, if teams are aiming for the Kings, the Kings right now to a man, coaches, players, probably the mascot, whoever pushes the beam, Vivec Ronadeva, who I was able to say hello to in the corridor. And I wonder if you know so much fun.

I've made him over the years, probably does. They're all, all of them, their reaction is bring it. You want to bring it. We're number two in the West.

We're not scared of anybody. We're healthy. We see all of you wobbling in uncertainty. We have faith in the way we play our defense.

It's not great. We think it's probably a little better than the numbers. That's what they'll tell you. Like, because teams have been hot from mid range from three all season.

But yeah, you know, we're not a great defensive team. Their offense, I have a piece coming down on the Kings tomorrow. Their offense is a bear. It's not one in the league by a lot.

And they love this idea that all things are going to slow down on the playoffs. You know, they won't be able to get out and transition. They love it. They're like, wait until you see us in a play as we might even play faster.

I so I'm right there with you on that from that standpoint, just because I spent some time with them last month and I just had a piece come out on them last week, I think for the magazine. And it's so interesting because, you know, when you report out these longer pieces, and I don't know that the average reader knows this, a lot of times it comes together over a week, over two weeks. In my case, even though, my story is up, I think it's just now coming out in the magazine. But I.

You went to Sacramento. You went to Sacramento. I went there for one of these back to back. So you were talking about to try to get multiple players and, you know, Mike Brown and Monty McNair one on one.

And it's so interesting because now it feels like it was such a long time ago. I talked to them right before the all-star break and talking to Monty McNair. I ended up deciding really not to play up some of his quotes from the story, but I essentially asked him because I could hear how adamant he was at the time where if you go back and look, the Kings had a record that, you know, yes, they would have been favored to make the playoffs at the all-star break. But it wasn't like a completely, completely, completely foregone conclusion that they would.

When Sabona's broke his thumb, which is sort of the flash ball moment of their season, they were 17 and 14. Like they were they were solid. But like you said, a two-game losing streak from being 10th. And I was pushing my editors to let me go write a story about the Kings in November, because I think a lot of us thought this is a really fun, cute story, a team that hasn't won a while, a fan base is electric because of that.

But let me go write the story now before it's not necessarily this big fuzzy feel good story anymore when they start losing. And obviously they kept winning. So bonus kept playing. But in talking to Monty McNair right before the all-star break, I asked him a question of I hear so much emphasis on playoffs and I get it because it's been 16 years, but how do you transition from just making the playoffs and being happy to do that to then like you're a two or a three-seat at some point?

And at the time, that was a question where he was still just, you know, essentially saying, we're going to focus on this first part, which I understand saying that. But now it now you've I don't think you've technically clinched, but you've got a winning record and looking at the rest of the way that the West has panned out, you're obviously going to make it and you're obviously going to make it with home court. So it's going to be interesting. But I felt like his response to me when I asked about it was we had a conversation about that moment where the timberwolves celebrated when they won the plan.

And he essentially said, people made fun of that. And I imagine people are going to have fun and make fun of our situation with the way people are going to celebrate when we have that experience. But this fan base, like maybe you can't understand it if you haven't been through it. So I'm going to be very, very interested to see how they handle it because it sounded like to me when I talked to Mike and I talked to Monty at the time.

And again, this was early like mid February. Mike was very, very much like, I'm here to win a championship. He didn't say it in the matter. Mike Brown.

Mike Brown. But he was like, I didn't come here to make a playoffs. I came to win a championship. And at the time, and again, a while ago, a month ago, a month and a half ago, my name was basically saying like, it's going to be a massive deal for us to make the playoffs.

And we're not going to shy away from, we're not going to be ashamed of the fact that it's going to be like an emotional thing for us to make a playoffs. So they now I think because there's so much distance between them and everybody else, they probably helps them to have done that to have kind of rounded their base. And now they know that they're in and that it's not going to be like a last week of the season sort of thing. Because now you're the hunted at this point.

And they do, you're absolutely right. They have an offense that it's not fun to play against. And I watched the next fans on my timeline. The ones that I follow from having covered them for years just to kind of get the fan base's reactions.

They were like, what the hell is this? I can't we get stops? But this has been everybody all year, not being able to contain the handoff situation, not being able to stop the bonus one on one, what he gets all the spacing, like a mansions worth of spacing, not being able to control the tempo at which they play and how they're going to go off of makes and everything else. Kevin Herder flying around, Keegan Murray flying around.

It's difficult. And it probably takes something out of you a little bit, offensively sometimes to have to try to play at that sort of pace. You can play it for two quarters. Can you do it for three or four?

So I was at the game in Brooklyn last Thursday, where they won their 42nd game and clinched the winning season for the first time. This is a real thing since 2006. And they have gotten so far ahead that what should have been a big moment for them. Some of the players didn't even realize what had happened after the game and didn't care.

On Monya McNair, I just as an aside, this is a I'm impressed with my McNair's discipline because he went to Princeton. And if this happened to my little school and we were in the sweet 16, I would be off the reservation. I would have abandoned my team and you would see video of me in the streets of where ever Princeton is playing, behaving very badly and being like, I'm the GM of the game. Yeah, baby.

I would be out. So good for my parents. Good for him. Cause I also last year man, like the, and I talked to these two holders about this, the fans were obviously not happy about that.

Halliburton supposed to wait until you read the lead of my story tomorrow about that. I can't wait. I can't wait. I mean, it's, you know, but I'm really upset with this repeatedly.

And I think Kings fans probably feel like I'm the best friend now, but I'm really happy for those fans. I'm happy for any fan base that has had a really long drought and they get experiences every fan base deserves that. A couple other quick things on the west and then we'll move on. I think, so Denver, I don't even think they righted the ship.

They bailed out some of the water by being pissed into stink and Detroit. The Pistons aren't trying to win anymore if they ever were. And then holding on against the Nets in Brooklyn. On a second half of it back to back.

So that's a good win. They lost to the Knicks in between on the road in what was a pretty competitive game. I said last week, I think what's happened with Denver is more than just the Everboard, the Sizumalays. Their depth is really, really worrisome.

Their defense has slipped. And I think their grip on favorite status has dissipated into the point where I answered Phoenix to this question. Memphis, all the stuff on the Moran situation, and I'm happy to see he's likely going to come back later this week. I don't know what can be accomplished in a week of counseling that changes your life so dramatically.

But I don't know what his specific situation is. And we all love to watch John Moran play. And I think on the court, he has been an exceptional leader for that team in the way he plays and the way he carries himself. So hopefully he'll come back.

I think the Moran stuff has totally overshadowed how devastating the Brandon Clark and Stephen Adams' injuries are to everything that Memphis is as a team. To their identity, to the fundamental way that they win with rim pressure, offensive rebounding, ferocity, tenacity. And I know Stephen Adams' timetable is uncertain. I think it was like took it right to the end of the regular season.

So we'll see. But I went through the numbers last week. With Stephen Adams on the floor, they have an offensive rebounding rate of 37%. That means they rebound almost 40% of their own business, which is ridiculous.

Stephen Adams was in the middle of one of the five greatest offensive rebounding seasons in the history of the NBA. He is now in the conversation as one of the half those greatest offensive rebounders ever, period. And Clark off the bench has just been a sensational two way reserved for them. We're going to talk about six man.

I think he would have been kind of on the fringes of this conversation. Had he stayed healthy. And the Jared Jackson Jr. Brandon Clark four or five combination has been a consistent blowout winner for the Grizzlies for three, four seasons now.

And even if Moran comes back, and even if he's at full throttle, even if Desmond Bayon continues to play like he was before he got injured and he's been sensational, and Jared Jackson, the last few games without Moran, is putting up 25, 30 game looks sensational. So they'll have their big three. And that's a real big three. I just think if Adams' shell of himself and Clark is gone, I just don't think they have enough to.

Now the West is so cat, could they win around? Yeah, could they be in the dog fight for the second round? Sure. I think this now becomes a season where they could have made a run to the finals.

And I think it's now without those two guys that's been totally overshadowed by Moran. I think it's unlikely to say the least. And I'm just, you know, we'll see these other teams every year. We'll change, but every day they'll change our sort of perception of them.

But you mentioned, you know, we talked about LeBron as kind of a a side. You know, if you can come back, they're going to be in the play. I would be shocked at this point if they're not in the play. And they're 35 and 37.

They're tied with Minnesota, who's quietly on a three game, losing streak, and Anthony Edwards got hurt last week. That's not great. I just think the Lakers should be able to hold off you tall New Orleans. I know that's not a high bar to clear, but like, I think they should be able to do that.

I think they're dangerous with LeBron. And in plotting out what would be the most fun first round series, the Grizzlies are usually involved because the Grizzlies are just, they talk to everybody. Everybody hates them. The Dylan Brooks, Clay Thompson feud, is like the most fun thing going on the NBA right now.

The Dylan Brooks just stopped doing things by the way. Did you see that pushing of the cameraman? Like, dude, what are you doing? It's a cameraman.

I know. I know. It's not on the other team. Just leave him alone.

He's trying to do his job. Why do you have to do it? It's fine to be an irritant to the other team. All this extra stuff is like, we get it, man.

This is who you are. You've become casual sports fans know who Dylan Brooks, averaging 10 points a game is because of all this stuff. Just like, maybe dial it back 15%. I don't even know what the hell.

Oh, the Lakers. Can you imagine, based on everything we just talked about, if the Sacramento Kings, after 16 years out of the playoffs, somehow draw the Lakers in the first round, and it's Kings Lakers with all that history, and all the California geography and everything. Oh my god. Like, part of me, and I love this part of not being a fan of any team, at least anymore, from basically when I was a kid, maybe a young teenager, you just get to root for what would be the most fun to watch.

And without caring about who's going to win or who's going to lose, that would be incredible. I mean, for a few days there, we had the Suns and the Warriors in position to play each other. We would get the thing, whereas Kings fans figure out where the Lakers are staying, and we would get these things like, they're going to set the fire alarm off at three in the morning, and they're going to try and tamper with the food. All that stuff would happen again.

I wouldn't put anything past these Kings. These Kings fans are hilarious also, by the way. I had one in my story who, when I'm always really curious about the people that just barely miss out on being able to experience this night and night out, so I talked to some season ticket holders, former season ticket holders, and some that are still current season ticket holders, but I wanted to talk to someone, and I think I put out a question on Twitter of like, are there any Kings fans that follow me that had season tickets last year, and in light of breaking the record for the longest playoff drought in history, and the Halliburton-Sebonist trade that people felt a certain way about at the time, is there anybody that essentially abandoned their season tickets and just let them lapse? And I got someone who did that, and he was able to talk his wife into getting them last year after years of trying.

It's not an overly wealthy person, he's a baggage handler at the airport there in Sacramento. And now we'll kind of side-ize his wife like, man, see, I told you, we would want to stick with this, but last year when they were terrible, and he couldn't make it to all the games because he had the job, he couldn't sell the tickets for anything, so you had to just take a loss on every night because you could not give those tickets away. Now they're great, but I talked to a lot of season ticket holder, and he was like, Chris, let me just walk you through it. Like I've had these tickets since 2017, like it's wonderful now, but in the years where they're terrible, it's like paying child support for 15 children that just constantly disappoint you having season tickets, and it was one of the funniest quotes I've ever gotten, but again, I'm just really happy that at the end of that tunnel, you get to see some light.

Part of me, I've said this, I really want to be at that first game, that first playoff game, just experience that, I got a chance to cover the Knicks in 2012, they had been to the playoffs the few years before that was Carmelo and Amari and everything, but I really want to be there for that first game because you know it will be electric. If it's the Lakers, it'll be insane. It would just be incredible, the atmosphere there, and watching the betting odds would be really interesting quite frankly too, for a series like that, just because I want to say what the Lakers I bet the Lakers walk in his favorites. I mean, wasn't that the case essentially a couple years ago when the Suns were the two and the Lakers were the seven?

I want to say, obviously, 80 got hurt at the game at series, but. You have to, you are contractually obligated to mention that Chris Ball also got hurt or everyone in Phoenix will scream at you on social media. So please mention that as well. How can working out your local teams take you further?

Sure, you can level up your team work skills. You also get a chance to receive a Tim Hortons scholarship award, ready for what's next? Apply today at careers.tingporons.ca. Let's talk about six-man of the year, which was ostensibly the reason why you're on here.

I'd love to do these little awards things, and six-man of the year is always interesting because when you go through it, you are reminded that certain candidates that you might like are not eligible because just like every thrust of them into the starting lineup. So I think that several guys are close and are not gonna be eligible. Gary Chen Jr is not gonna be eligible. Jordan Poole is not gonna be eligible.

Not that he's a good, I've been frankly disappointed with this season. His turnover is man. He has like three turnovers a game where there are turnovers like when Steve Nash committed a lot of turnovers, like I see what you're doing there and they're sort of like, it's baked into, this is what makes us go, is your risky passing and all of this. Jordan Poole's turnovers are like, were you aiming for the guy in the fourth row?

Like what are you doing, man? And I think the poster guy for this is, Malcolm Brogdon is gonna get a lot of publicity for six-man of the year. I think he's one of the four or five front-earners for it. I actually think Derrick White has been better than he has for the Celtics but Derrick White has started a million games because everyone's injured.

So he's not eligible even though when the Celtics are at full strength. He and Brogdon are the best bench back court in the NBA but I'm not able to vote for him. So anyway, I have a long list and a short list of like seven guys and then I have after the seven guys, guys whose names I just wanna say because I think they've had a nice season. Where would you like to start this conversation?

Do you have a clear favorite? I'm not sure there's a clear favorite right now but it looks like it might be starting to coalesce around somebody. I've got like two, three guys that I think are like really, really in it and even with that, I would say more like two. So do you wanna work backwards from the guys like the long list guys?

No, let's start with the two because you've got to narrow it to two which is narrower than I have it. Although if I actually sat down and thought about it, thought about more like if I had to make some tough cuts, who would I cut? I wonder if we're gonna come to the same, I have a hunch who you're same two guys is. Can I guess who they are?

Sure. Malcolm Brogdon. Mm-hmm. Inimmanuel quickly.

So I think, Nick's fans I wanna be clear on this. There are 10 games left. This is my initial snapshot. Snapshot, not my deep dive, not my decision, not my ballot, not anything like that.

I think Immanuel quickly might be the favorite now to win this award. He has been that good and statistically, you know Brogdon is at 15, 4, and 4, 49% shooting, 46% on three. So he's got the shooting advantage. Quickly is it 14, 3, and 4, 45% shooting, 36% on three is there about even on twos.

The Nick's have been way better with quickly on the floor versus off the floor. That's been the case for years. And part of that was their starters were so bad before the season. Brogdon, the Celtics have been good either way.

Defensively and rebounding quickly is just a menace to society. And he just feels to me, and this is almost unfair to Brogdon because it's demeriting him for playing on a better team with two superstars or one superstar and one borderline all-end player at least in Jalen Brown, quickly just feels more essential to the Nick's identity and feel and style that Brogdon does in Boston. Brogdon feels like just ingredient you plop in. He plays a little differently than the rest of the stuff.

He's like, go do your thing, get us some buckets. It's like, that's great. Quickly feels essential to the fabric of the Knicks in a way that Brogdon doesn't do the Celtics. I mean, you're not going to get an argument from me here.

I mean, if I'm being fully transparent, I probably have quickly ahead here. You know, to your point. Which by the way, a month into the season, you would have not have thought we would get here with the way you were shooting. No, not at all.

There's the fact that I picked Brogdon as my preseason six man of the year as well. Not that I'm also someone that I'm pretty sure last year had a beat as my preseason MVP and then voted yogurt. So I mean, stuff happens over the course of the season. And I would not shy away from the fact at all that quickly.

And there have been particular games, one of which was against Brogdon in the Celtics, where he just feels so integral to what they're doing. And frankly, there's a part of me, like Brogdon is a fine defender. It's not a knock on him certainly. He'd be better defensively than most of the people than when six men are, by the way.

He's better guarding up in size than quickly is, but quickly I think has been better overall. Yes. And there's a part of me that thinks that likes the idea of quickly getting the award just because I think the defensive stuff has become a huge part of his MO with the Knicks. And again, first of all, I think it was Zack Graham, who over at the Ringer that did a piece, it was about Brogdon much, much earlier in the month.

And it was basically saying like, Brogdon would not fit the prototype for who wins this award, because neither him nor quickly are like, I don't even know if they're top five and scoring for bench guys like Matt Rooki is averaging more than both of them. But it quickly averages I think even a little bit less than Brogdon does from a scoring perspective. But he's just, I mean, you talked about his numbers, his advanced stuff. What are the Knicks like 11 points better defensively per 100 possessions with quickly on the court?

Something ridiculous. And also, like you said, in the past, that's sometimes been because the Knicks were just so bad, starting wise, you know, they for a year or two started, Alfred Payton, they have a pretty good group of guards now. For some reason that just the mention of Alfred Payton, Nick's starting point guard just hit me in the solar plexes in a way I did not. I just didn't expect that to be part of my life today.

If it hit you that way, imagine how it hit Nick fans when they're in the midst of a playoff run trying to start the guy and play up him. So, you know, but even with those guys off the floor, because I think when you look at the numbers, Brogdon, when he's out there without Tatum or Brown, which you know, you're gonna be out there without Brown, just with the injuries and stuff like that. I think the Celtics have been like a minus five per 100. When quickly he's been out there without Randall Brunson or Barrett, who was the guy that gets a lot of shots sometimes, he's been a plus six and a half per 100.

So he just, he feels like more of an engine sometimes. Like you said, Brogdon, and that was the way people felt when Brogdon was dealt there, when they made the trade form is that wow, like that is a hell of a piece to go add to this cog that had just made it to the finals. Quickly is just a guy that you plug him into the starting lineup, he has the game that he had against the Celtics and helps them win it and over time, two over time, I think. He's defending his butt off.

He's a guy that is just launching from crazy spots on the floor. He's a guy that runs it up in transition. He's a guy that will make defensive plays that kind of can change the game. He's a guy that has added to his game a little bit.

He's always had the floater, but he's been more efficient than it with it than ever. He's a guy that, you know, every now and then you look up, he's hitting relocation threes, which has kind of been more part of his diet this year. He just kind of feels like the guy to me right now. And I will also mention too, as you're mentioning the statistical profile for these guys, he's also played way more minutes than just about anybody in this conversation.

He's played, I don't know if it's been every game. I think he's missed one game the whole season. Yeah, so because of that, he's at 71 games and more than 2000 minutes and broadened despite being relatively healthy this year is at 60 games and 1550 for minutes. And that's kind of where most of these guys in this conversation are, is between the 14, 15, 1600 range at most when I look down at somebody like Ties Jones, for instance.

Westbrook, if you want to go that far down, the list has 1,800 minutes. So quickly, he's kind of got a huge advantage of him from a minute standpoint because he's played in most of these games, some of which he's been a starter, so much of a gone over time. But that strikes me as a factor when you've got a race that I think is this close and is competitive. I think the simplest way to boil down the notion that he feels more essential to what the Knicks are is he closes games and Malcolm Brogdon doesn't always close games.

Quickly and Hart are stealing minutes from Grimes and Barrett. Every single night, Josh Hart, by the way, the new mayor of New York City is not eligible for six-man of the year because he's starting many games for the Blazers. Isn't that crazy that you said that about Derek White and they got Hart and he's been like a six-man level guy? So he's been there but he was a starter the whole season.

Wherever box out Josh Hart is on the scouting report, it needs to be moved up like nine slots because that dude is trying to get every single offense to rebound on top of everything else he does. The passing, the coast to coast drives, the defense, all that. Someone's got a box his ass out or else he's going to get 10 offensive rebounds in one of these games. So yeah, I think both of these guys would be deserving.

Here are some other names. Here are some other names. Let's go through some other names. If we think those are, it's top two.

Here are some other people that I think deserve upper echelon love and with more games, I think would be closer. So Bobby Portis, I think, was a very popular choice midway through the season. He's having 14 and 10, 26 minutes a game. He's missed 11 games.

Shooting well. Now his three has started to pick back up, getting a shooting almost 60% on twos. Just always seems to get a bucket at the right minute for the bucks and can flow in and out of every kind of lineup type, with Giannis, with Lopez, with neither of them, if necessary, is the only big guy on the floor. Feel like he's kind of falling behind the other two.

We should probably talk about what Austin released last night for the weeks, putting up 35 points. And I've said on this spot guys the last couple times we've talked about him. I think in the absence of in various overlapping or non-overlapping periods, LeBron, Davis, and Russell, he has over the last six weeks, amped it up as a scorer, and sort of shed the, oh my god, I'm playing with these guys, deference. And I think he needs to keep that mindset when those guys come back, because he can score well enough off the dribble that he's a threat.

And if defense is treated him as a threat, it's going to open up his passing, which is maybe his best skill. He's averaging 12 points, three rebounds, three assists on 52% shooting, 39% from three. The Lakers are plus two with him on the floor, minus three with him off the floor. I think he's in the conversation for a ballot spot for six man to the year, which really, I don't think a lot of people would have predicted that before the season.

Oh, of course not. And to your point from last night, look, what did he finish with 30 when you said 35? Like he had like what 16 trips to the line or something? It was like, these are AD type numbers, just as far as the production, getting to the line with LeBron out with Westbrook no longer on the team is a huge contribution.

And I've always thought and kind of wondered, for teams like this, even Minnesota, we talked about that with having towns out for as long as they didn't out. Now, Anthony Edwards, you need, I feel like most championship teams, part of what forges them and really catapult them to that is when they have someone out, someone steps up and becomes way more important than you thought they could be. And they keep those skills kind of hone those skills while someone is out, get used to taking on more responsibilities so that they're a better player when those people come back. And I mean, I just think that that was potentially huge for them last night, but also the way he's been playing in general.

Speaking of Minnesota, on my long list, but not my short list, just a guy that I might want to say, Nas Reed, only plays 18 minutes in game, just not enough minutes. Malik Monk, 14 points, 36% shooting on threes, 23, 24 minutes in game. So his minutes aren't quite the top bench guys are like 28 minutes, issue game. But he's just a guy, if you watch the Kings, you know, when he's on the floor, the other team is like, oh, this guy's on the floor.

And he'll have some quiet games, but his loud games are as loud as anybody in the league. The version of their starting five when he's in place of herder is really, really good. And essentially now that herder's dealing with a day to day injury, I think he is in the short, short list of this conversation too. So those you've now listed the other two guys that I kind of have that conversation.

I imagine we'll talk about Norm Palette at some point. I just think kind of the timing of him being out is going to be Christian would. We don't need to talk about him. Norm Pal is averaging 16 a game.

Christian would averaging 17 a game. Norm Pal is just a better player than Christian would. He has a deeper trust of his coaching staff than Christian would does. He's shooting 40% on threes.

He's in 16 games and counting. Now I think it's up to 17 games and counting. And just, I don't know, man, when you watch the Clippers, every other game, you just feel like you got off to a slow start, then he surged. It's like every other game, something leaves me cold.

Like he still hasn't figured out his fit. He's not impacting the game as much as you would hold. But then every other game, it's like, this is exactly what the envisioned. I just don't think he's there with quickly and broadened him.

I don't have him there. Maybe he could have been just if he stayed healthy, I think the last few games before he was out were a little bit rough. And who knows? Like, it could be like I was I was looking at some of the numbers for these guys in certain situations.

He gets very few shots in the closing moments of games where the two stars are on the floor for obvious reasons because the two stars are on the floor. But it's just, you know, you wonder to some extent if it makes it more difficult for somebody like that to hop in and be a part of that we watched. Lou Williams do it, I guess. But it's maybe it was more natural for him to do it because he was a ball handling guard as opposed to someone that was kind of flying off the wing around his screen or something like that.

He looked like the hands down favorite for a while, you know, to a lot of people for a good chunk of the season. But yeah, I just got to feel like in it. I will say, you know, the Clippers who haven't given a flying, you know, what about the regular season for four years are running out of time to figure out their rotation now that they've added Westbrook and Eric Gordon, who's been sensational for them and Plumlee, who's a very good backup center. It is interesting to watch Tyloo toggle through the closing lineups.

And last night, who did they beat last night? Why am I blanking on who they beat last night? Anyway, they beat somebody last night. It was a nice win for the clip Portland, I think.

They closed with Westbrook, Gordon, the two stars and Zubots. So Gordon in place of Marcus Morris, which is a lineup that I know a lot of people had been looking to see if you're going to put Gordon in the closing five, the assumption in a lot of places has been, well, he will be for Westbrook. And that's been the case in a couple of games too. But a lot of people have been watching like, Morris is kind of in a little shaky in the season, particularly defensively.

I wonder if they'll try it in place of Morris. And they did last night, how does Noram Powell's return presumably impact that? I still like the look of Nick Petume with that group. Nick Petume is on my long list.

He just doesn't quite score enough, which sounds rich coming from the guy who me who won an Andre Guidala to win this award like multiple times with the Warriors. But I know how it's different. Yeah. But some of these scores, like quickly, Roger and also good defensive players.

This is not anti-calorie's bench scoring by those guys. But I just just an interesting, interesting Clippers note as long as we're talking about Powell. You were going to say something about Malik Monk, I think. Yeah, just him and Portis were really, I had a list of basically four guys.

And all of them have missed a little bit of time. I feel like quickly is the only guy that has basically been there every single night. Monk has been there for the most part, too. And I don't know if I was that in Sacramento because of an injury, but he's been fantastic.

And I think I was a little skeptical. Like we've looked at the Kings for so long now. And with them having a lot of guys that seem to bring firepower on offense and not much defense, I was really skeptical of his bit with this team. But I mean, this team has basically turned out to be a team that defends hard in the fourth quarters.

They've defend pretty well most fourth quarters, but they've got an offense that is basically like, what are you going to do to stop us? And Malik Monk is a massive part of that. You mentioned the interchangeability with him and hurt her sometimes. And I feel like watching Malik Monk in some of these games, particularly that Clippers win the double overtime game where it was 176 to 175, the guy went for 45 points.

You know, he has shot it well and closing moments. There are plenty of games where he closes for her when her doesn't play particularly well. He's a plus 33 and the clutch. He's shot 19 for 35 in the clutch.

And you know, someone that I don't really think of is a table setter. He's had 13 assists in three turnovers and the clutch is well for a team that's won a bunch of close, close games. Fox gets so much credit for the clutch production and it's going to win hands down and that was at the Jerry West. I'll tell you, I'll tell you.

I'll tell you. Joellen beat me a lot of big shots this year. I think Joellen beat me a late Jerry West award push. But then again, you're in five.

You're going to get some angry Kings fans to respond to that. They're trying to clean everything. We can vote on that award. I hope not.

God, I hope not. So you mentioned maybe the biggest proverbial feather in the cap from a league monk is 6.3 assists per 36 minutes for assists a game that is blowing away his career high. And it makes the bench for the Kings work because they've shifted him into more of a ball handling role in Davion Mitchell into more of an Avery Bradley be a stop-run defense secondary ball handler kind of role. And that's really worked.

And it doesn't work without Malik Monk being a really good passer. So he's on my short. He could make it argument for him to win. Career high and free throws too despite like you said before, the minutes have been less for him.

But I just kind of feel like this is such a wide open downhill offense because of the way guys run off to Montez's shoulder with these screens that he sets. He had a quote in my story about the idea of like, yeah, I get the impression that most people on other teams don't like me because of the way I set screens. But you would love me if I was your teammate. You get the impression very quickly that Malik Monk is enjoying this offense and enjoying the pace of it and getting to the line and just setting guys up because it looks like it's a lot of fun.

And I feel like sometimes it looks like it's at his most fun when he's out there. You mentioned Mathurin 17 a game. He was over 20 for a bit. He was.

So it shows you how he's falling off. Only has a little bit more than an assist per game which drives me nuts. He's a rookie. He's fine.

43%, 31% on threes, 31 on threes, 49 on twos. Here's a scorching question for you. I think Mathurin after spending most of the season has sharpied into number two on the rookie of the year ballot. And so productive that when you would watch Pacers games, the broadcast crew would be like, well, you don't forget about him.

If bank arrows, something blah, blah. Yeah. I think you could make a really solid argument that he's not going to finish in the top three of Ricky, a year voting. And I think I'm not sure.

I think Jalen Williams, I think Jalen Williams on Oklahoma City wing Jalen Williams is number two with a bullet right now. And the scoring numbers won't won't be comparable. But Walker Kessler is contributing to winning basketball. I think at a level that might exceed what Mathurin is doing in Indiana.

I know that's going to drive Indiana. But it's crazy. But it shouldn't, though. I mean, maybe let me not speak for them, though.

They probably would not appreciate me speaking for them. Although I feel like I'm very often like a small market Indiana advocate. Yeah, but you live in New York now, Chris. You've lost your business.

You've lost your business. You've lost your business. You've lost your business. Fair, fair, fair.

I've watched plenty of Indiana. I wrote about Mathurin and the Pacers early in the year. He, he, like you said, you preface everything by saying he's a rookie. And so it's like there also aren't expectations that he's going to be this all around superstar right away.

I don't think he's affected. Let's let's be clear. More than fine. He's a franchise building block kind of piece.

And no one expected him to be averaging 16 a game as a rookie either. Certainly off the bench, which is like, that's kind of incredible. We really haven't had, I don't know the last time you have to go back and look at a rookie that was doing, I don't think we've ever had a rookie that averaged that much off the bench before. It's really, really encouraging to watch.

That said, I think most people, and I think even Indiana fans, if you, if you talked to him for long enough, would admit that like, okay, he might not be the most well-rounded rookie yet. And if that's what you're looking at and you're looking at someone that's in a, well, I say a winning situation, we're also in a spot now where like Indiana is probably similarly positioned to where the jazz are. Not probably, definitely. So, so I mean, but I will say Walker Kessler, I mean, at one point, it's very recently, but I was leading the league in blocks, like overall blocks because he's played in most of these games.

He's a lot of people in Minneapolis just got a little sick to their stomach. I know. But I mean, that's a guy that you watch him and he looks like he's a seven year vet. There are times where Matt there looks like that from the standpoint of the guy can really score the damn ball.

He's got other aspects of his game to round out. Kessler looks more, he's more of a two-way threat. And I think that that's unusual to see from rookies, even ones that win rookie of the year. So I definitely understand having him higher up.

I was going to say before you got to it, I'm pretty sure Jalen Williams has to be number two at this point. I mean, he's just been too good for too long. 30 point performance is 50% shooting. He's a guard.

He can shoot it from outside. He's a great passer. He's lashes to the hoop. And the scariest thing about him is that like they've got three guys at some point could realistically be all star level ball handlers.

And we're also talking about a team that has a few guys that can really step out and shoot that figure. We're talking about a team that doesn't have a chat home and we're talking about a team that if they do miss this postseason for whatever reason, that they will get a pick. And not to mention, Sam Presti always has picks an abundance. So it's a really interesting situation, but Jalen Williams is like a redraft would be really interesting because of how well Jalen Williams has played this game.

I'll tell you this, Chris Herring, Paulo Bancaro better finish strong. That's all I'm saying, better finish strong. Wow. That's how good Jalen Williams is.

Here are some other, this is the end of my shorter list for six man of the year. So I have mentioned quickly, Brian Portis reads monk and then Powell got in as an aside, Christian Wood got in as an aside. The other two names that are sort of in this tier for me are Bruce Brown and Ties Jones. I think Ties Jones, this is so weird, Zach.

I wish I could hold this up. You'll see it. The viewers won't. Can you see the very top of this here where it says you have hand right?

I feel like I'm reading like someone's diary from 1785 with the slanted writing that's very good old school writing. Give me some credit. So this is says wood T. Jones be Brown and this.

Yeah, I see it. So it's like we pretty much ended up in the same spot here. These were the that was the long list for me and the other guys were on the show. Ties Jones amid injuries, Marantz absence, general chaos, Dylan Brooks hitting people.

Just just comes to play every single night. Oh, you need me to start? That's cool. I'll also you need me to shoot a little bit more.

Maybe earlier in my career, I would have been reluctant to do that because I was very, very cautious. It's why I like to lead an assistant turnovers every year. I'll shoot more. I'll shoot more pull up three.

You want me to shoot pull up threes? I'll shoot some pull up threes. 10 points and five assists a game, 44% 38% from three. Plus with him on the court, plays half of every game basically can play with him a rant, although that lineup has not worked out so well this season.

It was better last season. I just he's just one of those overlooked guys who's development from low risk game manager to still good game manager, but gives you more juice has been a big, big deal for the Grizzlies and he's with me. They paid him a lot. He's probably the highest paid backup point guard in the league and he's earned it.

He is as good as that contract. I mean, it's also and I was going to say for a long time, I kind of put him and money more as in the same tier of like to me, those were like the two best backup guards in the league, backup point guards, floor general type points in the league. Money got the starting job when he got traded to Washington. And so it kind of just leaves Tiesh Jones at that point.

Obviously we talked about Brogdon, you know, whatever, but Tiesh Jones, particularly that was the thought I had in mind. So it's just like that team at this point looks totally different now than it did a month ago, a month and a half ago. We talked about Brandon Clark, all that adds up to more responsibility. And like you said, they've been doing this.

We if it weren't for last year, I think we would be impressed with the fact that Memphis has kind of sort of held it together this year. If it weren't for the fact that they went like 21 and five or whatever it was last year, when it was better than that, even. Right. So so that's my point is like, you don't I mean, I mean, I agree that we know that the defense gets a lot better, at least got a lot better when job was it there last year, but so much of that was Tiesh Jones being able to hold down the fort, the defense, the assist to turnover ratio that felt like only Juman Carter could kind of match.

I mean, he's just a special player and he's capable of holding down and starting to be shown it for years at this point. And I'm emphasis, like I said, they paid handsomely to have it, but even with that, you get the person there, they're very fortunate to have somebody that produces like that for that team. So I'll reach the, I'm going to say some names to be nice phase of the conversation. So here's some names that I want to say to be nice, because I'm a nice person.

Some people don't think I'm very nice, but I am. And if your player's name is not mentioned, it doesn't mean he's, I mean, I got a lot of names on this list. I can't, I'm sorry, Alec Burks and Gabe Vincent and Kenridge Williams. And I just can't mention you.

I can't mention everybody. I just mentioned you, but I also can't mention you. So there's more, there's more like that. Caris Lever, your University of Michigan compatriot.

Are they in the tournament still? Michigan did not make the tournament for them. Well, it shows you how well the first time in, I think seven years they haven't, but what the hell happened? Michigan State is still in.

A lot of people ask me that question about our friend, Joanne, but we'll see what next year holds. It's been a good time to raise folks all again in Michigan. Best fight song in college sports. Yeah, the victor's valiant.

Okay. So names some guys on Yekka, a kanggu, just like, just like him only averages nine points and seven rebounds. That's only is not for the seven rebounds. It's for the nine points, just a minute ceiling on him with Capella there, but he does on both hands of the floor what you want him to do.

Corey Kisberg, I'm just going down the list in order of I have, I went through the standings. So this is where they are. Corey Kisberg, I'm not going to get you a lot of rebounds or assists or anything like that. But defensive shaky, but he comes off the bench.

He does his job. He moves around. He does stuff. TJ McConnell, rock solid.

Alex Caruso, can you shoot more? Maybe the Bulls are like a million. He's going to have too many starts to make the team. I don't know.

Right now he's eligible. See, what's he at now? He's not going to win the award. I know.

I know. I know what you want. But I think I looked at him and it was like, I think he had 20, what do you have 28 starts out of 59 games? He's played so far.

So he's like right on that line. So he may be off the line. The rule is you have to come up the bench more than you start. The Bulls look good things happen when he's on the floor.

And that's been the case for a while. Cole Anthony missed a bunch of games early in the season. It's been a key engine since then for the Magic. You want to mention some names?

Well, you'll the floor to you. Any names you want to say? I looked at those last two that you just mentioned between Caruso and Cole. But I figured this always happens whenever we do this.

You always have a few names. I'm like, I didn't seriously look at that one but I look. So those were really the last two. Caruso and I realized that I won't win.

I'm going to say some more names. I'm a nice person. I like to compliment people for their good work. I'm a big team.

Dontte Diefen-Cenzo? Okay. I can't even read who this is. Oh, you're talking about my handwriting and you can't even read your old stuff.

Come on, man. It's a very deep cut. And again, he's not going to make the ballot. The Thunder are plus eight per 100 possessions with Isaiah Joe on the floor and mine is two with him off the floor.

And considering that Shay is a low volume three point shooter, Giddy is a shaky three point shooter, Dorts a shaky three point shooter, Jay Dubb has been a better three point shooter of late but doesn't garner all that much respect. They're just different when he's on the floor. Now he only plays 18 minutes a game. So forget it.

He's had a very good season. Malik Beasley. Love it. Russell Westbrook.

Not going to make my ballot, but you know, he embraced the role with the Lakers. Now he's starting with the Clippers. It's hard to know kind of what to make of that candidacy. Jose Elvarado, Larry Nance Jr., you both fell out of this conversation, but when you were healthy, you were quite good.

Ken Rich Williams, shout out Ken Rich Williams. Always shout out the Waco Wave hairstyle. Ken Rich Williams. Zach Collins quietly had sort of rebuilt his career after, I think, three seasons basically lost to injury.

11 and 6 a game, 52% shooting, 39% on threes. Spurs are bad regardless of who's on the floor because they're just bad. So ignore the story, Mark. Just kind of a nice story.

The guy who built his career and I wanted to say his name. There are other names I could say, but I'm going to leave the names there. Fair enough. Did you want to, we talked about this offline.

Did you want to talk about rookies? I thought we were going to maybe transition from Mathren at one point to the rookie. We kind of talked about the rookie of the year ballot, but first team all rookie is going to be, I think there's, I think, Ben Caro, Jalen Williams, Mathren and Kessler are going to be all pretty close to unanimous choices, right? And so you're fist five.

What do you think for that? That's five. Jaden Ivy, Jabari Smith, Jr. I just love Tari, he's in so much that I'm going to say his name too.

I have my list too. Anyone else would consider? I will now for right now. Any other guys I'm considering for first team?

Probably not. I think Keegan Murray and Ivy, I think are kind of the two that I think people are going to probably take a beat on to figure out. And at least with me, I feel like after that, there's a little bit of a drop off. But the second team will be really interesting because I feel like there's like eight and nine guys that maybe more.

If you think I've spent five seconds thinking about second team all rookie yet, you are mistaken, my friends. But I had to take some time to figure out who wasn't going to make my first team when we had this conversation. That's true. We just sort of named a few guys that are going to be second team already.

I think having done no statistical research other than my day to day life of covering the league, if you're forcing me to choose between Keegan Murray and Jaden Ivy for the last first team all rookie spot, I'm going to just sort of default to the guy who's been on a winning team playing in a context in which what he does actually matters. Like Jaden Ivy has freedom to just do. And he has, I wrote about Jaden Ivy in 10 things two weeks ago. The Jaden Ivy now compared to the Jaden Ivy 20 games in is a completely different player.

Lots more under control, changing pace, slowing down, shooting better, the crazy turnovers are a little bit down. Which is what you want to see. I think in my column I said, look, we expect everyone to improve from year one to year two. It's not always linear like that.

Some guys stagnate. Some guys make huge leaps. I think Jaden Ivy is a candidate to make a bigger than expected leap from year one to year two, bigger than standard for guys even picked in his range. I'm just kind of going to default to the guy whose games are important.

I think that's okay. I would not believe that I haven't made up my mind really on that last spot. I mean, Kagan, when I was first of all, really fun guys, they kind of make fun of you. You had that interview with Kevin Herter probably a couple of months back.

And he mentioned, I think that Kagan doesn't, he's like not experimental at all with what he eats at all. And so I had fun when I went down there to speak to him about some of it. I asked him like, what's the most adventurous thing you ate? And he looked over at the PR person and she was like, what was it that you guys made me try?

And it was like red snappers. Like I hated that. So he was really fun to talk to. But even him, I find him fascinating because he is a guy that while he was in Iowa, he did not, there were handoffs were not involved in his college offense.

And then he goes to play with the Kings. And it's like, this is the hub of their offenses to use handoffs with the bonus and with Herter. It's kind of, I don't know if you would call it the thing that is kind of catapulted them, but if it's not the thing, it's like up there with the other things. Kagan Murray, at one point when I was researching the story that I was writing in mid February, late February, he had the highest effective field goal percentage in the league off guys that were getting, I think, two handoffs to game higher than Steph, so higher than Herter.