I'm going to exercise the prerogative post and ask a question that's not on slide though yet because it's in my head. Pastoral care and public policy on this galaxy of questions tends to be necessarily abstract, but there are very practical and concrete challenges posed to the church in the sacramental economy of salvation, namely, only a baptized man can become a priest. Only one man and one woman who are both baptized can create the sacrament of matrimony. They have already encountered in the United States biological women who transitioned to male and arranged for falsified documents to present themselves as candidates for holy orders.
In many places the same thing happens with the sacrament of matrimony and there's an intent to deceive which may or may not ever be discovered. In my time at St. Mary's we have already discovered one marriage that took place here in which the groom was in fact known. Last year the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops had to send a notification to all bishops, religious superiors and seminary rectors who alert them to the possibility that those applying for priestly formation may not necessarily be men while still presenting as.
So my question to both of you from whatever perspective you want to answer is yes we have to accompany, yes we have to welcome and suffer with in all the ways you've indicated. And yet at the end of the day there's a point beyond which we have to say this is impossible and anything beyond this point is fraud. Please come in. All right.
No. That's a great question. And so a couple of things I know also of situations where people were married by sort of subterfuge but in one case I'm thinking the woman who had transitioned and was presenting herself as a man really thought she sort of qualified she was not a Catholic so it was a Catholic marriage. But in any way one of the things I think is important to know is for the church is that in every state of the union you can change your birth certificate and in most of those states reissue the birth certificate with no notation that shows that you ever you were born the opposite sex.
So for the church dealing with its own baptisms one of the things that you know we typically recommend is make sure you are putting in the church's records the sex of the child when they're baptized. Now it's a lot it's difficult with adults because someone could come to post quote transition and with the use of puberty blockers cross sex hormones in youth you can have someone who will be more convincing in appearance. So many transitions at the age of 55 let's say male you can tell you can tell it's not hard but it's more difficult when you get young people who have had the influence of those cross sex hormones there's still their birth sex but there are one of the things you can do is you can ask for an affidavit you know they have to make that statement that this birth certificate has not been altered or this birth certificate represents the sex they were born as. In other words you're asking them for an additional information of truth which can help to raise the issue for someone who may not be aware of it.
But I think it points to another problem that I think people are encountering in parishes when you have someone let's say an adult who comes who's transitioning come through RCIA and they may or may not reveal where they are and that's something I think the church just has to be upfront and ask those questions because it's ultimately not to the person's good for them to persist in this false identification even if they can't they're sort of too far down the road to reverse the process medically. I know of some situations what's important is that they understand the truth of who they are and they accept that. So the CDF answered a query from a bishop in I believe it was Spain who was saying, can someone who has transitioned be a God parent and the answer was no not because they're terrible people or something not at all but it was for this position as God parent you are guiding others in faith and you have to understand except in your own life the truth about who we are the essential truths of the faith. So I think there's a similar process that we need to ask people to go through in terms of RCIA.
No I absolutely agree. I think the subject in my estimation the subject of the kind of pastoral accompaniment and even potentially if we get to the realm of maybe concessions are those within the church acting in good faith and I think what you describe father would be those seeking to act not in good faith through deception whereas what I'm envisioning is how do we journey with those who say I love the word Jesus I want to follow the gospel and yet I have this experience and I don't know how to square the circle but I know absolutely the physicality of the sacraments we don't mess with you know things other than bread and wine at the Eucharist that physicality is essential and we have to affirm that. Many feel dismissed or shamed by those who try to share the truth about gender and sex but who miss the mark on speaking the truth in love. So the question is how can we help Christians speak the truth in love in a way that will not cause dismissal or shame in those who are struggling with these questions.
I don't think it happens in one conversation. I think a lot of times where we get into trouble is we imagine okay I'm going to have this conversation and I need to be able to express to them why it is I love them so that I can get to the point I want to make whereas a relationship of love authentically is not going to be just that conversation you know and that trust and that love should be something that was witnessed to hopefully God willing prior to that conversation otherwise there's I don't know that the witness would be that education. One helpful distinction I've heard a number of people make is it's important to affirm the person it doesn't mean you affirm the false belief or affirm the false identity. So how do you affirm a person someone comes to you and they say this is either I am transgender or I'm struggling with my identity.
First let's talk about adults first because it's different with kids you have an adult and ask their name. Adults can change their name and call themselves whatever they want. So if John calls himself Julie he's changed his name and he's an adult fine I'll call him Julie if that's his name. But then you say all right you know I give them your presence be fully present to them your eyes you have to love them in truth you have to really care about that and that shows itself and then you ask them you have to show some curiosity and really listen tell me about you tell me about your journey tell me about your experience I'm talking about someone who's got the time this is not too many encounter but if someone comes to your office and they're seeking help or something like that understand where they're coming from and then you can reassure them you love them but there's some things that you know need further conversations they're important to distinguish so it's that attitude of love it has to be genuine that posture of eyes the tentiveness etc that communicates you're worth something you're significant we may not agree at the outset that's important with children it's different if you have a teen say you're a youth minister and a kid comes to you and says I'm trans again you can say I love you thanks for talking you know bringing this to me let's let's talk I want to understand tell me more but it's really problematic when other adults affirm a child down a path that just is only going to lead towards harm it's not true so you have to be really willing not to not to sort of give into the temptation to quote meet them where they are they're using a different name they're dressing the opposite and they want to be validated in that when you go down and start entering their narrative you are telling them I accept this false belief I think it's true too I'm going to treat you this way and you're also leaving their parents sort of hanging because parents who are trying not to affirm one of the most destructive things is when other adults come in and affirm the child's false belief and we've got to remember it's a false belief it's a false perception so there's there can be real emotional distress around that but it's it's not it's not a good thing for them to be holding on to that because of where it leads so in that ideal you need to help unpack help them help them share so you can understand where this is coming from what are the other influences and there's a longer conversation I don't want to monopolize this but I'm happy to give some other tips and thoughts about ways to do that in a longer conversation but no I think that's absolutely true for whom ever asked the question my suggestion is think of the Lord Jesus and the woman called in adultery he does not condemn her he does not shame her scorn her or allow us to do the same at the same time he does not say to her go back to your lover's bed next question are these gender concerns primarily feature of western culture or are they also growing in Africa Asia and other places I can speak to that so it's it's becoming an increasing part of the narrative that oh this is global we see it just like it is here and we've seen it all throughout history and that's that's not true I was talking about an anthropologist the other day it's done an extensive deep dive into this and he said yes it's true that you have in some other cultures people who are typically male who struggle with their sexuality who may present as women it's not the same thing as what we're seeing with the with the quote transgender population it's just and certainly not to the same degree so that's it's not quite true to the extent that's in the narrative what is true is that we are seeing a global push to normalize this the UN for example has adopted a posture of saying who you are is defined is self-defined your gender identity and it's a human right to be able to modify your body in order in any way want in order to identity so they're putting a lot of pressure on people across the globe to comply with that when they do the periodic reviews so I work with Catholics in the Caribbean for example where they have a very traditional culture and they are they and yet they rely on UN money and they are being pushed to loosen their law validate all these concepts as a condition for receiving funds that something Pope Francis had spoken about so it's not it's not intrinsic to the human person that you're going to have this this certain percentage of people who are so confused about their we've you know it's part of human nature to recognize male and female that's what intrinsic fact that some people can get confused is is more reflective of the circumstances particularly the circumstances today which we find yourselves anything to add to that father Michael or Kerry from Saint Martin to poor is in Columbia is making the point that the Western perception of these questions is spread through social media so kids in Africa or Asia who are watching TikTok or other forms of social media are learning these things from the Western sources how can one find counselors especially for children who will address these questions from a Christian anthropological standpoint since most cannot or will not advertise and are scared to speak up talk talk to your priest talk to him no don't come up don't you know me please no I think I think you know in conjunction with your parishes working with them to come up with sort of lists of counselors within a Catholic world view I know I've been referring just as past week to two different individuals I've been referring you know contact information of Catholic counselors to various things and those people I can't speak to other communities but at least here at Greenville we're blessed with a good number I think we've got one in the crowd right now at least so yeah please be speaking with your priests and your parish leadership here I can't vouch for other places yeah so I can add some specifics on that the person identity project which is the project I run if you click the resources button we've got you can find your way to recommendations for both support groups but also counselors and the counseling umbrella groups that we list there are those that have committed to be faithful to the church's teaching so for example Catholic psychotherapy association to be part of that you have to commit to be faithful to the church's teaching they have people all over the country who commit to that and there's a registry so you can look having said that you have to do due diligence you have to talk directly with the counselor and ask where they stand on the gender affirming thing just to make sure the other thing there are a number an increasing number and again you can find references on our website there are increasing number of practices that are working telehealth you know counselors who are doing sort of video counseling and there are some really good ones out there so some of the parent groups that I work with have excellent networks where they don't advertise they're not going to put the names of the good counselors who work especially doing telemedicine but if you connect through their support groups then they can refer you and put you in touch with them so one group is parents of ROGD kids ROGD is the what father referred to Rabadon said gender dysphoria it's not a diagnosis it's a description parents of this happening but anyway they have a tremendous network across the country and they can help people the other thing I would encourage people to realize is not everything needs counseling some of these kids are kids who have underlying issues let's say they're on the autism spectrum and and they get caught into this sometimes for just sort of basic human needs like they're lonely they want to fit in this is the crowd that welcomes them so there's there's a lot that parents can do and we shouldn't always think I as a parent can do nothing until I get my kid in counseling there's a lot you can do and so to that end there's there's a book called desisty trans detox by a woman named Maria Kefler who has worked with hundreds of families and in that book it's on it's on our website too there's really good practical information when your kid says this here's the kind of question you can ask them how do you help them how do you challenge their thinking how do you cut off the negative influences how do you strengthen your relationship which is a really really important thing when you have a child who's getting caught up in this you have to find ways to strengthen your relationship with them apart from the trans issue so anyway there's a wealth of just practical wisdom in there and then the final thing I'd recommend is in many places the end courage chapters related to the courage ministry have both groups that are in person but also they have some some video groups that are parents who are dealing with this and I was talking to a woman who was in one another state just about a week and a half ago and she networks with an awful lot of other families and she was saying of all the families that she knows who are dealing with with this and she knows hundreds she said those who are simply in secular sort of parent support groups most of them end up alienated from their kids in other words those relationships are just ruptured whereas in the end courage group even when you have parents with parents are not affirming their kids going down this transition path but there's that support in the catholic ethos that helps them guides the parents to deepen their own spiritual lives but also to learn how to maintain that relationship to the extent you can so that you don't have that alienation and sometimes the kid walks away and you have to be patient in long suffering and pray but but by and large there's just a lot that can be gained by being in the company of others who are prayerful who are experiencing that same deep suffering but also have some some practical wisdom to share I the only thing I would add to that is and I like the the image of the woman at the well because I think where we can reorient some of this is remembering that a relationship with the Lord Jesus is going to be primary you know if we get this person you know thinking a right in a place where they're no longer feeling attention and yet they still are in a place where they're not in relationship with the Lord Jesus that has to be primary and then from that they're seeking to live in that relationship and walk into the cycle of the Lord Jesus that is a place of commonality and again what I was envisioning as I was speaking is where are the people who are serious about their faith or from from the perspective of wanting to follow the word and yet have this but I think that's absolutely true.
What advice would you give those of us who could lose our jobs if we do not affirm the state agenda identity of our colleagues or students? Well unfortunately it's an increasing problem however so here's the thing it depends on where you are if you're in a private company a private company can do what you want and you have to be prudent sometimes you can avoid most of us when we talk to people we don't use someone's pronouns we use their names you can use an adult's name you're not pushing them down that path because adults are free in our country to change their names and be called whatever they want with children as I said it's a different thing because changing validating that name change for a minor means you are you're literally helping to further them down that path and at a time when they need to be to be pulled back if you're in a if you're in a profession that requires you to be literally validating that gender identity at some point you're gonna have to figure out where your conscience lies so for example increasingly medical professionals are finding themselves to be being pushed towards validating or even participating in transition activities that medical transition activities which you just can't do you just can't do you can't mutilate a healthy body when there's when there's no benefit and there is no benefit I meant to say in my talk that when you look at the long-term date on suicide and the best comes from Europe because they've socialized medicine when you look at the long-term data you don't see the phenomenon of people transitioning and doing better in terms of mental health what you see is that initially there can be sort of what they call a euphoria or a honeymoon period for a couple of years because they're getting all this validation and then it drops off particularly there was one study that came out last year that where they tracked suicide suicidality and stages of transition and they found people were attempting or getting suicide at all stages of transition and the average time to suicide for those who completed suicide was six years after they began their transition path so this were a solution you would not see that you would see increased mental health and all of this so you have to realize this is not healthy this is not you're not helping someone so as a matter of conscience we don't want to be facilitating behavior that we know is is either going to lead to direct sterilization or it's going to mutilate the body or harm someone and you've got to figure out whether you're willing to stand on conscience but I think a lot of issues can be avoided because you have to be prudent if this is your only job don't use the pronouns do the workarounds avoid it as much as you can and keep your head down but at some point you have to figure out where your your line is it's um so every every few months I have to gather with uh I should say have to I gather with the other supporting clergy firm and university campus ministry and in the context of those meetings I'm with um Reverend Tom Reverend Janet mother Kelly from the Anglican group etc etc now obviously for me as a as a Catholic priest the terms father and reverend those had very particular meanings but when I gather with those groups I refer to mother Kelly as mother Kelly she thinks that she has a priesthood that is the equivalent of mine that is not true that is a false rule but in those settings for prudential reasons and in some in some cases for just kindness because we're not in any kind of real relationship a friendship or where I could be educated or corrective to them I maintain what they have asked to be called that's that's the best example in my own experience of that kind of thing where this is we have a disagreement here but there are adults this is a work situation and out of prudence and kindness on the call of them what they've asked to be called social lubrication that's probably not how I would have phrased it but yes that's father Father Peknan something to that I would distinguish between the school situation and the work situation so for example you know the points you're making are really good ones but in a school situation one thing that has been increasingly in the Catholic media is these Catholic schools are refusing to affirm and validate trans kids and they're not using their names they're not letting them access the bathroom they want etc and so one of the things you have to realize is that as an institution we have an identity that's rooted in Jesus Christ it's rooted in the truth the church has to be the church and the school has to be faithful to its mission and identity which means if you're going to relate to people you relate to people in light of the truth about who they are which create a male and female so one of the things that's important and I'm happy to see more diocese doing this then coming out and just saying look this is who we are as a Catholic school this is what we believe because we believe this we know it's it's not a kindness to lie to people we treat people in always an accord truth about the person is your creative male or female so everyone in our community is going to be regarded and treated with a dignity appropriate their humanity but in light of their male or female so I think that's an important distinction just to one of the challenges of the tensile culture which now especially dominates university life is that rather than a commitment to freedom of speech for all we have a commitment of freedom of speech for those who agree with me and anything I find to disagreeable is by definition hateful and therefore will be prevented that's the context for this uh Ryan Anderson uh president of the ethics and public policy center of which Mary as a fellow published several years ago an important book about these questions called when Harry became Sally and it's an exploration of the evolution within um the medical sciences of these questions the book like all books was available on Amazon until it was not it was just canceled with no explanation no appeal it appeared with a black hole in the context of that kind of cancellation and the claim that the gospel is hate speech where did we start we I think that's probably a good place because we have for decades now assumed that the culture if not at least encouraging our Christian faith would at least be quietly affirming of it and that is no longer the case so that now it's very clear we're dealing with a culture that is mission territory and I think Christians sometimes we forget that and we need to be continually reminded that this is mission territory and that the answer to this is the gospel of Jesus Christ and if the prevailing cultural gatekeepers are seeing particular things as a threat to the prevailing cultural norm that's good because they are and the gospel of Jesus is is a threat to the dark powers and to all the powers that wanted to twist in the story the created order so I'm glad they've they picked up on that and but but the mystery of the gospel is that somehow this gospel which is also off-putting and offensive is yet still compelling and when people hear it the spirit works and they're drawn to it so I still think it's good. I would say too that we need in everything we do be unfailingly kind you know my own experiences people are dealing with these issues and those who love them are just in a lot of pain there's it is a difficulty to just be kind be unfailingly kind but at the same time we have to be willing to speak the truth because the other thing I've observed is that when one person has the courage of their convictions to say you know what male female can't change sex I you know I love everyone but I'm not gonna lie I'm not gonna be forced to tell a lie to participate in someone else's narrative that other people will kind of look around then yeah they start nodding and people gain courage when others have the courage of their convictions so I think it's an important time to speak the truth that's an opportunity right would we 20 years ago have been talking about Christian anthropology no it would have been a nice academic subject but it's real it's who we are and this is an opportunity to share the gospel and to help people understand just the beauty of being created by God and having he's got a plan for us and all the mystery and and it's to go along with that but there's good news and this is an opportunity to present that the other thing I would say is that different from countries in Europe for example where they don't have the First Amendment we have robust religious freedom and first free speech protections now the problem is it takes a while to litigate those things so in the meantime people feel like they're shut down and they can't afford to speak the truth and that's an unfortunate reality but it's not the answer to that isn't to go silent to give in to cancel culture and to just sort of shrug and assume well maybe it's gonna blow over it's not gonna blow over it's not gonna blow over because that's the other thing I would emphasize here I think people made a mistake in when the same-sex marriage battle was going on and then the Supreme Court sort of dungton decided no it's gonna be legal everywhere I think a lot of people thought okay pew that's off the table now we can all ubu will be us and we can all get along and it's just not true because the ideologues who are pushing this have a goal that really is to dismantle the family denies the truth about the person and they're not going to stop and right now there's a lot of power behind that goal so it's we're fooling ourselves if we think we can sort of sit back and wait for it to blow over it's not going to it's going to get worse to the extent that good people don't fight the battles and that's different from the political cultural is different from how you engage with the person who's hurting and just be unfailingly kind but when called upon be willing to set your boundaries I think that's something parents especially today have a hard time doing you can love a child you can say look I understand I want to understand why you're feeling this way but I cannot because I love you there are things I cannot do I cannot say I'm gonna take you to the endocrinologist to get your testosterone which will lead to your stability etc that's that's a boundary I cannot cross because I have an obligation to God and I have an obligation to you so be willing to to draw boundaries in love and then continue to treat people kind of me. Mary hason and Jonathan Duncan thank you for your wisdom glory be to the father and to the son and to the Holy Spirit as it was in the beginning is now and ever shall be world to that end on end thank you for coming