[Creator] Optimistic Nihilism - Vincent Woo

Listen to Indie Hackers: https://www.listennotes.com/podcasts/indie-hackers/041-an-optimistic-nihilists-ldribhqGTOM/ (20mins in) special! the making of this mixtape was livestreamed today if you're interested in the behind the scenes process Also recommend listening to the Dropbox talk that he mentions: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8UwcyYT3z0 Transcripts Courtland Allen 19:43 What about in the early days? Because I know for a lot of founders, those first few months where you're not sure that this is something that's going to work out or be worthwhile can be pretty nerve racking. I know you started off with CoderPad as a side project, but you eventually decided to make it full time, so where there any bumps in the road, or challenges, or any insights that you had growing from zero dollars to, what was it, $4,000/month? Vincent Woo 20:3 Yeah, I quit it when I hit $4,000 MRR. Courtland Allen 20:6 What was that decision like? Vincent Woo 20:8 This is going to sound really stupid, and I had to explain this in the YC interview as well, they were like why $4,000, you haven't quit yet? I was like, I'm quitting at exactly $4,000 MRR, and they were like, why? I was like, okay, here's a reason... it's stupid. It's because when I hit $40 MRR, I posted on Facebook as a joke, haha my business makes $40/month guys, isn't that funny? Then when I hit $400 I was like haha, guess what, I made 10x what I made the last time I posted, that's crazy bro. Then I thought, oh shit, if I do this again at $4,000 that's actually kind of real stakes money, so I might as well quit then. Also $4,000 kind of pays for rent and stuff, so that's why. There's no reason to it, I just did it because I felt like it. I could've quit at any number, I mean if I quit at the beginning it would have been fine too, it didn't really matter. Courtland Allen 20:57 In San Francisco $4,000 pays for literally just rent, haha. Vincent Woo 21:1 I had a roommate, we were splitting a one bedroom you know, I had the converted living room kind of situation, one of the shitty old Victorian's in a basement. Courtland Allen 21:11 Was it a hard transition going from your developer salary to just $4,000/month... Vincent Woo 21:17 No. Courtland Allen 21:17 Would you say that you were motivated to... what was pushing you the most, just to increase your revenue or to...? Vincent Woo 21:21 These motivational questions are hard for me, I don't think I'm like most people. Why was I doing what I did? The truth is, I don't know. I don't actually believe that most people know why they do what they do. I was doing a thing because it seemed like the right thing to do but... okay, I'm going to take a moment to explain. I'm what you might call an optimistic nihilist, like I don't think anything's really real, up to and including money. Money is like a dead person's face painted on a green piece of paper... that it signifies material wealth to me is almost amazing. That, that system actually works to me is terrifying and awesome at the same time. So yeah, I thought it would be fun to make more money, but I knew abstractly that if I failed at CoderPad, literally the worst possible thing that could happen to me... is I would just get a job. Which I had proven that I had been able to do at least a couple times before that, so I wasn't worried about it. There was no anxiety for, because to me this is all a big game. Courtland Allen 22:22 Yeah, it's almost like a role playing game. Where you're essentially leveling up and acquiring skills, and to what end... I don't know haha. Vincent Woo 22:31 I think of it more like an open world exploration game, like GTA or whatever. Like just seeing how much you can get away with before everyone figures out that you have no idea what you're doing, and you're just making everything up as you go along. Courtland Allen 22:41 So one of the reasons I asked you about your motivation was because one of the earlier things that I saw you in was actually a video where you gave a talk at Dropbox. Courtland Allen 23m 9s Well that's what I wanted to ask, why give a talk like that? Vincent Woo 23m 12s It was to provoke the audience. Courtland Allen 23m 14s Did you want to tell them that... Vincent Woo 23m 17s That they were doing their lives wrong? Yes. Courtland Allen 23m 18s How did they take that? They seemed pretty supportive. Vincent Woo 23m 21s They liked it. I mean it was tongue in cheek, obviously. It was in this building, probably on this floor, just a different room, it's Stripe now. We could do the same thing if you want... could come back and do the same talk again, in the same room. Why did I do that? I mean... Courtland Allen 23m 40s The impression that I got watching it was that it seems like it was a core principle of yours that people should do this, or that it's better for the world if more people do that. Vincent Woo 23m 51s There's more of the premise for the talk than necessarily a core belief of my personality. I mean I was invited to do a talk and they even payed me, it was crazy. This was a best topic I could come up with, so I tried to make it compelling, but I also gave reasons to not start a business. I actually think there are tons of reasons to not do it. Many people I think are unsuited for it, and also it's not terribly pleasant in a lot of ways, so I don't know necessarily that I actually recommend everybody who's listening to start a business. I know that's sort of the premise of Indie Hackers, and also it's acquisition by Stripe is sort of, how do you put it? Grow the GDP of the internet. Courtland Allen 24m 27s Exactly, nailed it. Vincent Woo 24m 28s Right, so readers at home, if you can start a business, do that, but also maybe don't. It's not easy, it's a lot of work and there are a lot of things that valuable in life that have nothing to do with money, that's how I'd put that. Courtland Allen 24m 44s I think one of the cooler things that you touched on, that I've also found to be true is that a lot of people who would love to start a business don't, just because they've never even considered it as an option. Especially being the smaller, Indie Hacker type business where you're just making money and you're not trying to be a unicorn, especially if you're a developer, that doesn't get advertised as much. Do you think that's changing now-a-days? Vincent Woo 25m 7s I think it must be changing. If there exists people like you, who's sole job is to promote this lifestyle, I would take as some indication that things are changing a bit. On the other hand, I touched on this in the talk, I think this is kind of cyclical. It used to be a cultural norm that everybody kind of wheeled and dealed, at least that's my impression. If you go in other countries that's way more true too. We probably hit peak corporatism and are trying to dial that back a little bit, I think is natural, it was probably inevitable in some respect that people would get upset with... we've had cultural satire and lampooning of corporate life for decades now. I remember my entire life I would watch stuff like Office Space, or cartoons... Courtland Allen 25m 55s Dilbert. Vincent Woo 25m 56s Yeah, no one paints a favorable light of corporate life anymore. There is no work that makes the work of an office seem noble. In some ways that's tragic because I don't think that's necessarily true, but on the other hand it reflects reality. I think the majority of of...