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We taped this couple weeks ago when Cam Collins from the Ringer and Wesley Morris from Formally of Grantly Now, The New York Times, my old teammate. They were here, Sean Fennese was here as well. We talked about Creed. It was right after the weekend when Black Panther really just went through the roof and Ryan Coogler, who directed Creed and Black Panther obviously had become, not just the hottest director in Hollywood, but one of the craziest career arcs we've seen.
So we talked about that, we talked about everything we loved about this movie, and then it kind of veered into where movie is going. It's all over the place. Hold on to your seats. Here it comes.
They came back with Rocky V, it was one of the worst days of my life. Rocky VI, a lot of mixed feelings. Heard they were doing Creed. I was nervous.
It was awesome. The Rewatchables coming up next. You don't really seem like a boss of the movie. A pop was a fighter.
You die before I got a chance to meet you. You're a good kid, a good fighter. But this thing, I don't feel ready for it. I'm a fine-ready for it.
I need you right now. What do you feel? You are a popular queen, son. Right?
So then fight. If there was anybody else in my corner, I wouldn't do it. I got you. You eat with a P.T.3.
Wesley Morris from The New York Times is here. Sean Finacy, editor and chief luringer, Sam Collins. Which official title is the winner? Staff writer.
That doesn't sound exciting enough. How about if you say it like this? Critic at large. Chief psychologist.
Staff. That's Cherry. Just Cherry's nemesis. We're talking about Creed.
It is a movie that only came out in 2015. It is single-handedly carrying the epics channel, which I won the orca-man has. It's on all the time on epics. I watch it all the time on epics.
I just jump in to certain scenes. Epics doesn't seem like they have a lot of movies. I don't know what their library they're working on, but it's like Creed, Anchorman, and like three other movies. And that's all they have.
Ryan Coogler's second movie, Second Collaboration with Michael B. Jordan, the first Rocky movie not written by Slaas Stallone. Made $174 million. 95% score in Rotten Tomatoes, Sean.
And that matters to you. It means nothing. And Stallone was nominated for Best Supporting Actor and somehow didn't win. It was a jaw-dropping moment.
This is a really good movie and it's relevant again because these two have teamed up yet again now for the third straight time for Black Panther, which is a phenomenon. Wesley, where do you want to begin? Can we talk about this as a boxing cancer love story movie? Sure.
Okay. It's your world. It's not my world. I don't know.
Where should we start? Should we talk about it first as... Well, let's talk about it first as a Rocky movie. Yeah.
So just to give it some context, Rocky V murdered the Rocky franchise in 1990. I saw it with my buddy Jim Grady in I think Syracuse, New York, and built the whole weekend in college around it. And it was a disaster and we just ended up getting bombed. Rocky Balboa came out of 06.
People tried to talk themselves into it. It's fine. I think it's pretty good. It's okay.
It's some good fight scenes. The sun's good. The fight scenes are good. The love story is not good.
No. It's like an HBO. Yeah. It seemed like an actual telecast.
It decided to skip over the fact that Rocky was brain damaged in Rocky V. He was legit brain damaged and then Rocky was not that fine. Creed comes out and I think we're supposed to pretend that Rocky V and VI never happened. I'm willing to pretend.
I don't even remember what happened in V and VI. By all means, just Tommy Gunn is played by Tommy Morrison. So that's out. They pretend.
They canceled V. I'm not sure if they canceled VI. They never really clarified. He wins in VI, right?
And at like 50 years old. He was meant to believe that he went. But there are moments in Creed when it's clear that Balboa is still an icon even in the minds of young people like Bianca. Like a Tuscantan character.
She identifies Rocky Balboa immediately. Your dad is... Wait, let me get her bad Philadelphia accent just right. Your dad is Rocky Balboa?
Why are you giving me that look? What were you going to tell me that your uncle's Rocky Balboa? I'm going. I'm not going to hold my breath.
I didn't even notice that that was a bad accent. She's really... She and Joanne Woodward are the two people in Philadelphia. Joanne Woodward and Philadelphia.
Two people who didn't have to do it. But did it. Joanne Woodward won. Good company.
Tessa Thompson. I'm glad you brought this as a great subject. You don't always have to do the accent. No, you don't always.
Like Chris Hemsworth in the classic Michael Mann movie Black Hat. You need to do a New York accent. Just be Australian. One of my best friends is a really serious Black Hat person.
Is it Chris Ryan? No, it's my friend Eric Hines. Chris Ryan tries to defend. He's not a Black Hat person.
But if you ask him any question for that movie, by the way, shout out to the homie Chris Ryan who was supposed to be in this and had to go away and we're doing it with Adam. I'm holding it down for fully Chris Ryan. I knew this was like a top five rewatchable. I'm like the RC Cola to Chris's Coca Cola.
This is a really a cut rate. I shouldn't be here. But I'm happy to fill in the slot. I actually would have bumped this.
But the Eagles beat the Pats and he's had a weird smirk on his face. So fuck that guy. So Creed, the most interesting thing about this movie is that Sly gave up the steering wheel. Didn't write it.
Didn't direct it. He's not the star of it. He's in it. It's great for him.
I got an expendable. I got another expendable to try to write it. Given the letting Google take the ring. I like for a facilitation.
The response here is thank God. I mean, thank God that Sly bought into Ryan Coogler's vision and agreed to let him do this movie. Imagine Sly trying to direct this movie. So on the one hand, an unbelievable stroke of luck that Sly didn't just say there's no way you're doing this unless I get to write direct it.
The second stroke of luck is they stumbled into Ryan Coogler who's only made one movie who is I think 28 years old at the time and who now that we are looking at the first three movies that he's made is clearly one of the most talented directors we've had in the last 35 years. And he's just randomly doing a sports movie. He's like so overqualified to do a sports movie. And it's great.
And I think that's the biggest reason it's special is because he's great. I think that I mean, I don't know why a slice alone sort of let Ryan take over, but I appreciate that Ryan Coogler I think Sly is a good actor, but not always. But I think that his performance in this movie is beautiful. Yeah, I agree.
I actually get disappointed in you. They win. I'm disappointed too because I think maybe it's good that he wasn't directing because he just focused on bearing the weight of the history of the franchise in this movie, but in a way that's really sad. But beautiful.
I think that the connection between the two of them is romantic as the way it works. And more romantic to me than the connection between it's romantic. It is romantic, right? And can't you see the off screen on screen parallel to between, you know, Adonis and Rocky and Ryan and Stallone and there's definitely something correlative between those two things.
Ryan talked about it. When I had an NBA J in my pod within 2015 and he said this was a really personal movie for Ryan because his mom and daddy cancer, he just lost his dad and that part of the story really resonated with him during the filming, Sly Stallone lost his son. And there's a scene when Adonis moves into Rocky's house and he's in Polly's room and there's a picture of Sly Stallone and his son and they do a close up of the picture and that was a really big scene behind the scenes apparently. Sly Stallone did not want to have the picture in there.
It was too emotional for him. They talked him into it. They explained to him why they thought it was important. They played it a certain way.
And if you look at like his eyes in that scene, like he's really upset and you feel it and it's just cool. I mean, there's a lot of little stuff like that that only a really super great director I think would be able to pull off. And that's why it's a special movie. I, Stallone isn't really interesting.
I mean, this is the Stallone conversation. This should go without saying. But so that's the Stallone. What an interesting movie star.
The biggest star you can't get bigger than he was from like 82 to 86. As a movie star, you're not going to go, you're not going to, would you go back a little farther? No, I'm just saying by by 82, it's not a fluke anymore. He has consecrated as Rocky III and first blood in the same year basically.
And that whole running had all the way through 86. It was like he was the biggest star in the world by far. And compelling in some way like despite against all odds, this is something that'll tell you something about Hollywood and their determination to let just let white men win. Like against every odd, imagine a black Sylvester Stallone.
Who would that be? Just pick somebody with all of- Carl Weathers. Oh, well, no. Because Carl Weathers, when he speaks, I can understand what he says.
Carl Weathers is conventionally handsome. Sure. The problem with Carl Weathers is he doesn't have the thing that Stallone has, which is he's not charismatic in the way that Stallone is. I mean, you can see it in the movies when he and Carl Weathers are together.
Like Carl Weathers is everything you'd want in a movie star, but he's missing the secret sauce that Stallone has. Stallone? I don't know. Is Stallone a bit actor?
He's had the capacity of being a good actor. Yeah. I think he's good in First Blood, which is nobody thinks of those Rambo movies now. It's just he's in Vietnam.
You love me! First Blood, the model is a good movie. Yeah, no, I mean, it really is. And his model, I get the end.
It's like really good. It's a movie that's been also just like recontextualized and people think it's different than what it really is. It's supposed to be an anti-war story about what happens to people who get too close to violence. And it changed when this blood part came out because then that changed what that movie was supposed to be.
First Blood's a movie about the Vietnam Wars happening and people are protesting and then the Vietnam War veterans are coming home and they can't fit back in whatever society is. Right. I bought a whole lot of things. I like Kathleen and this this raked form is very close to the halfway in kind of Stallone.
I'll just say one thing. I grew up in a household that was really big on the Lords of Flatbush and Paradise Alley. Those were like two big movies of my mom showed me when I was a kid. Your mom just voluntarily showed those to you?
Yeah. Well, that's why I am the way I am now. And I got the letter. Oh, that's not as good.
But so I think when you like when you see Paradise Alley and you start to believe in like the mythology of him, not as a movie star person who like invent his own career and life and point of view and he writes and directs movies and the rocky mythology is so that someone couldn't get a movie couldn't get a movie star part. So he wrote a movie star part and he made Rocky into this thing. And it's I'm sure his unconventional handsomeness and charisma and male whiteness was a factor. Well, not the whiteness part.
That was like, you know, Britain into the ether. It's like, you know, right. It's like, you know, right. There's some, yeah, there's definitely some racial shaco now with the rocky thing, which I did not.
Well, see, Claddleson, you know, I mean, when it gets to Rocky three, it's like, wait, that's the rocky three. I'm saying Rocky running Rocky two. It's it's there. It's something I have a rocky three.
It's like, let's just own this. Oh, let's make this super like, like, uh, clever legs, basically there. It's probably laying by the way, clever, laying and he's telling Stallone is going to have sex with his wife is a, Hey, woman, Hey, woman. It's like that.
That's when they're just like, fuck it. Let's go with this before we get into what Coogler is quite, I would say audaciously trying to do with Creed. Let's just stay with Stallone for a little bit longer. Yeah.
Um, go on, twist my arm. Cliff Hanger is a good movie and Stallone's really good. No, there you go. First two hot takes of the day.
That's a hot take. It's a movie star legitimately good movie. It is. So is what's the tunnel one night daylight daylight.
It's also a good thing. It's good thing. I love it. Like you can't and someone than you can see is looking through the He made it possible for all of these sort of weird looking guys in the 70s to become, for more weird looking guys in the 80s to take over our action movies.
Swear to the Niagara Van Dams, Sega, all those guys. None of those guys, it's really good looking. I mean, in the way that we think of movie stars, it's a holdover from the so-called ethics of the 70s, of which Deloitte was one. And Deloitte and Rocky was basically doing Brando, except he, like, by Brando standards, couldn't act, but he had a kind of Brando animal magnetism.
And that's what he played. Yeah, I think the best example of that is in Rocky 1, when he goes to the arena, the day of the fight, and he realizes he's not going to win, and he comes back and he talks to Adrian. And it's like, it's not a very well-acted scene, but he's so likable. You're the tenderness.
And Talia Shire is kind of carrying him. Like, you just go with the distance with Creed. He's not great, but it's like, I'm so in on Stallone at that point. Yeah, he's not someone I go to for, like, good acting technique.
But maybe that's what surprises me about Creed, is that it's important to Creed, is that I don't know technique is the word, but he doesn't... It's probably the word. He doesn't muzzle his way through scenes in the same way. It's very, like, quiet and very weighty.
The way that I think you don't expect of him. Yeah, I would say Stallone and Tom Cruise are the two actors we've had who always knew who they were. Like Stallone, I don't know if he's ever played. Well, who else could he be?
Well, that's a good thing. But here's the thing. Stallone never played a villain, right? I'm thinking about that.
One time he took a chance with Stop My Mom Can, or My Mom Will Shoot. That was a comedy, but I guess like, Ryan Stone, he tried to sing. Oh, yeah, Ryan Stone. And that was with Dali Parton and I was thinking...
Can I just tell everybody, for the most part, he stayed on brand all the time. If you want to see, like, we've only scratched the surface on this. Ryan Stone, you've got to see him and Dali Parton and Ryan Stone. It's on YouTube.
And they've watched it in the last nine months. And if you want to know what you're missing from your movies in 2018 that you were definitely getting an 86 and 85 and 84, why don't you treat yourself a little bit over the top? I was just going to say, I think I learned about the concept of good bad movies from Stallone. I think I'd say from me, I was so honored.
Well, maybe I was drawn to you for that. Because I love over the top. Well, Cobra and Over the Top come one too. Cobra is actually just a bad movie.
He was there on TV all the time when I'm growing up. And I watched them over and over again. He was very sexy. And I was so drawn to them, even though I knew that they were kind of bad.
I would watch with my friend Chris growing up over and over again on WPIX on Saturdays. And then Holy shit, that movie is bad. And it's amazing. It's so fun and crazy and weird.
It's an arm wrestling movie. Me, me, halfway. It's probably the best arm wrestling slash divorce movie. I don't know what the other candidates are.
It's really good. I like that he wins the truck at the end. And then apparently his son just gives up. He just gives us gold.
He's just going to travel the country with the sun. They just don't do this anymore. It's great. Although the Hugh Jackman, you might recall in real steel was under similar circumstances.
Over the top. That was over the top. But virtual, like what do we can rock them? I don't know what we can call them.
I do think there's certain people from that generation that people love when they come back. And then other ones who have just kind of run their course. Tarantino was good at this. He never wanted to give up on Travolta.
It's like Pulp Fiction, whenever other people fell through. He's just like, I fucking love John Travolta. I'm like, I still a star. I'm bringing him back.
We see that from time to time. But it doesn't always work. Arnold Schwarzenegger, there's too much baggage now. What's the loan in Creed?
You're like, oh, I love this guy. I'm so glad he's in a good role in a good movie. This is probably my favorite thing about the movie. It was very similar to Burrentals in Booking Nights.
They were ready to love him again. Yeah. He just needed to be in the right wrapper. So I hope he liked being in Creed more than probably not.
I think he probably did. I'm probably a little more agency there, too. There's some people I don't feel that way about. I don't feel the way about Bruce Wilson anymore.
Wait until you see Death Wish. Well, I know I'm going to like that, even though you said there's some issues. Well, that's a different rewatchable. There's going to be takes, right?
A lot of takes. Yeah, there's. Yeah, it's a movie of its moment. In so many ways.
A lot of these people have tried to revive themselves, right? Like Schwarzenegger has been doing stuff again since he left office. John Clevian Dam has been trying to do this post-modern vision. All of these guys from that era that's still uninspired have me.
Yeah, Chuck Norris is a political figure and is on TV all the time. So the one's the only one who's made anything that people are like, that's good. I like that. And Creed is the best thing he's done in the 21st century.
Is it because he's not being a try hard? I think it's because he's naturally talented and always willing. But I would even add naturally likeable. As a kid, watching him go through cancer, I felt like one of my family members was going, I've done sliced alone my whole life.
It's not Rocky when I was six. There's a naturalism to him that is secretly technically proficient as well. I mean, you see it and you can see it in Creed. But before we let me just a little remind some people of some things.
You might all remember that Stallone, one of the movies he directed was a little movie called Stay in Alive. And you might recall who the star of Stay in Alive was. A little Mr. John Travolta.
And Mr. Stallone, talk a little Mr. Travolta in the spending the last 20 minutes of that movie making what I would say is the most amazing bad piece of filmmaking I have maybe have ever seen. And it's John Travolta and Funola Hughes who all my soap opera fans out there will know.
We go to our hospital for a long time. The two of them toe to toe in the crazy savage dance off where Travolta is oiled the fuck up for 20 minutes. They're just dancing and a loin cloth and a loin cloth. One of the most romantic performance he had in the decade because he was perfect.
He was the perfect the next year. It just sliced the loin's vision of masculinity as a whole other podcast. It's so crazy. I mean, Sean, he could have done anything and he chose to make a sequel to Saturday Night Fever in which John Travolta spends 20 minutes in the sequence oiled up in underwear.
You left out the Frank Stallone soundtrack. Dun it, dun it. Here's my defense of Stallone. I think you throw out everything that happened from 78 to 84.
I think everyone was doing so much cocaine. No, I'm not saying just like the decisions. I think you just have to assume that there was just an incredible, anytime something doesn't add up, just assume there are mounds of cocaine somewhere near somebody at some point. I'm just going to go back to Crete.
I just want to say some other stuff about Stallone that's really important to think about. This is, I almost need to shower him. I'm just going to give you some names and I want you to just, like, I know this. I'm about to tell you something that I remember this and it's been so many years later.
Brigitte Nielsen, Jennifer Flavin, these names have been anything new? They were starring girlfriends. Why do I know that? I don't know.
It's crazy, but that was a thing. At the time, we were all up in his personal life too. He was going on on Jone Rivers and talking about this stuff. People were following him everywhere talking about his love life.
It was crazy. He made for she and Nielsen a star by dating her. Yes. Jennifer Flavin, why do I do that name?
Did they sue each other? Wasn't there some sort of legal situation? Yeah, they might have been. But I mean, they can't even miss all this stuff.
You know, you should shit were news too. How do I look at Jean-Nelson? I'm 30. Yeah, so that's 1987?
Yeah. Oh, so you, by the time you started remembering Stallone, he was already like coming back. Yeah, but my mom, like, loves Stallone. Like, I grew up with a lot of his stuff.
That's it. I was very familiar. I was very familiar. But things like staying alive, I didn't get to until my college when someone was like, have you heard of this?
And like, YouTube is just starting and just watching a clip of it being like, what the fuck is this? Amazing. He's a fascinating movie star. He's like, like, the guys who were in like wrestling pictures in the 30s, you know, where he's just like hired for his brute physical appearance.
But then underneath that, there's more than you bargained for. He's just a really, really, really, really cool. I think with the Googler and BJ thing, like, when somebody's that big of a star, they're always going to think they're the biggest star on the set in the room, in the restaurant, wherever they are. That never fades away.
It's like my mom's theory of any woman who's pretty when they're 18 is going to continue to think they're pretty for the rest of their life. No matter what they end up looking like. They're going to carry themselves from that point on, like, they're beautiful. Also a different podcast.
Yeah. Well, that's my mom's podcast to be probably going to solve probably the ring of the ring. The removable. Yeah.
There's takes. There's my Bob Stakes. But yes, alone, I'm sure it was intimidating for those guys. Coogler was 28.
And BJ had fruit fail, but wasn't like he is now. And those guys, you know, I'm sure there was a lot of cajoling. I think they both ended up liking them. I think a lot of the reaction when this was announced after seeing fruit fail and hearing a lot about Ryan's story and the fact that they were like, you know, like, you know, I think when this was announced after seeing fruit fail and hearing a lot about Ryan's story and his short films were like, this is a huge mistake.
This is a major area. I put myself in the group. Yeah. I will.
I mean, because I'm one to sort of tell people what they shouldn't be doing. I was definitely like, well, why would he do this? Yeah. But then I just was like, well, why shouldn't he do it?
The whole point for me of a young black director having a little bit of agency is to have a little bit of agency. And this is like the story, of course, is that he'd been wanting to make this movie for a long time. Yeah. He was like a 10 out of 10 on the Rocky fans.
He was like, well, he's really fired. He wanted to do this before he made fruit fail station. Right. And I just that MBJ told that story on my podcast that they wanted to do it before fruit fail, but they had no, they had no cache at all.
And it was still after fruit fail that they had the cache to even talk sly into it. But even with fruit fail, I'm surprised that they had the cache. Not because it wasn't good, but because it's a, it's a jump. It's kind of a leap, right?
But it seems like too big of a leap as it was happening. Now we know the guys. Well, we also, but you have to also remember what was going on in the industry at that time, too. And all kinds of guys were making some version of not fruit fail content or thematic wise, but, but in terms of making a little movie that you don't know what the person's going to do next, then going on to do something else in Hollywood, like unquote, untested, unquote, that was the thing that was happening.
And so the idea that Ryan Coogler was going to, there wasn't going to be sucked into the, into the machine, but was like trying to find a, a way to somewhat, honestly and truthfully get it, like be a part of that machine. Right. Colin Trevorrow went from a small movie to Jurassic World. Ryan Coogler went from a small movie to Creed.
And the way you choose to fit into a different Hollywood economy is fascinating. I mean, there's, I can only think of one other person who in the tic-tac-toe of the first three films is even close. It's like Sugar Land Express, Jaws Close Encounters. That's, to me, Fruitvale, Creed.
But even Spielberg had dual before that. Yes, and he'd been directing television for five years. He was really good at that. That's great.
That's great. Yeah, that's right. Spielberg had 10 more years experience. Yeah.
Coogler first film, first feature length film, second feature length film, third feature length film. That this is what he was able to do. I would say if we were having the fantasy draft for movie directors for like the next 20 years of their movies, I would say he might be my first pick. I think it's him and Chazelle and Barry Jenkins.
That's the point. Wait, what are our cut-offs or our timelines or whatever? Just like your buying stock in the next 20 years of their movies. Under 40?
Under 40. But PTA could be in that conversation. He's older than 40. You get the next 20 years of his movies.
Right. But what's our cut-off? Is 40 our cut-off? I'm saying from 2018 to 2038.
Oh. Who's going to make the best movies? Oh. Well, I mean, Coogler's in there, Barry Jenkins, Damien Chazelle.
I think this guy, Trey, were Schultz. I think I don't know what his next movie is going to be, but that guy is so... And talented. What about the dudes who made a good time?
I don't like the Saffi brothers. I'm just not like the Saffi brothers. I think those guys are total frauds and first major diversents. Oh my god.
And Eric Hines, my good friend, who's also all in on Black Hat. We also disagree on this. I just don't buy those guys. I just don't buy them.
You didn't like them? No, not at all. Wow. I'm open to having my mind changed, but I don't like those guys.
You're not excited about 48 hours? What about 48 hours with Tiffany Haddish as Regina Hammond? Wow. Is that happening?
Wait, can I just... We're down a little bit of a rattle here, but is the point of what you guys just brought up that the Saffi brothers are doing 48 hours? Oh, fuck you, man. That's why I hate good time.
Because those guys wanted to make 48 hours. I mean, that movie is like, I'm telling you, man, those guys are frauds. I can't believe this. And that's...
But no, I watch that movie. I watch that movie. And what I'm watching is two guys trying... Hey, over here, dude.
I don't believe anything about that movie, and I think it's politics are fucked up. That's one thing. But every move in that movie is from somebody else. Sure.
So are movies. Sorry. Zach, just cut that out and make that a little breakout on our Twitter feed. It was of course, cause it's the Saffis.
Sorry. Let's dive into Creed here. 48 hours. Most rewatchable Creed scene.
Oh. I may have to revive Wesley. The Andre Ward cameo. When everybody climbs in the ring and decides to take out the whole jam and then Andre Ward shows up, and then goes like, no, I actually have to knock you out.
I just love that part. This is tough cause I think there's three great scenes in this movie that I really love. And every time I'm flipping channels they're on. I'm really curious to hear what those are.
The Creed versus Leo two round filmed in one shot boxing match. Beautiful. Is really one of the all time. I don't know how the fuck they did this scene.
And every time I watch that I'm just like, how did they do this? And I remember he talked about it on the pot I did, but now I want to talk about it with him again. Like he did, he have to remember every single punch. And then even when he knocks it down, it cuts to MBJ.
And then it cuts to Slice Alone. And then the camera worlds back around. Like it is just incredible. We have to talk about Marie Selberity who shot this movie.
She's a great cinematographer. And name a movie that you like, she probably shot. Like the most interesting looking thing. She did Velve Gold Mine, the Todhians movie.
She did We Don't Live Here Anymore. A not good movie that is amazing looking. It feels like she cut her teeth on this with the wrestler. And she shot the wrestler.
She shot a lot of documentaries. A lot of documentaries. On Beyond's when a fighter's getting ready. But this is a testament also to how good Ryan Coogler is because I think this is a way better shot movie than the wrestler.
Absolutely. And it's so imaginative and inventive in how, oh, let's keep going. Because I think this is the seven minute reviving slide from cancer slash training scene slash culminating with the ATVs outside of Slice House. I'm getting a chill right now.
I just got chill. I just stand up in your seat. The Urban 2015 version of Gunna Fly Now 40 years later, it's so fucking good. Every time I'm like, I'm just in, I'm in for these seven minutes.
And then the 11th and 12th rounds of the final fight are just great. And, and Sly wants to throw the towel and MBJ does all I got to prove him that a mistake. And it just, I just tap him in the back of the head so he knows how many fingers to see and everything. It's just great.
It's a great five minutes. Stressful. I think I personally think the two round boxing match in one shot. I think that's the best boxing scene I've ever seen in my life.
That's who I would vote for. Here's my, that's my vote too. And there's a reason for it. We've, we've all seen like hundreds of boxing scenes in movies, hundreds of fights, all the Rocky franchise, Raging Bull, tons of scenes.
That scene is not only like technically masterful, but when Stallone gets in the ring and basically gives him the tip on what to do and Jordan's character responds to the tip. And now it's not just that he's a good fighter. It's not just that the movie looks cool. It's the building the bond, their relationship trusting each other and then Bianca jumping into the ring after she wins.
And she's like, you can tell me how hands like that. You know, there's that great moment where they like connect. Can I just say something about that line? Wesley didn't like that.
Oh, no, it's not about her. But it's like that line is so indicative of what it's like to sleep with him. I mean, every time I hear that line, I'm just like, really, that's too bad. You've been missing out, baby.
Oh, man. I just can't, I just can't believe it. They should just put it all out there through his shit in the street. Oh, God.
Just saying. Can you have the ATV scene a bit? Oh, yeah, absolutely love that scene. Another thing I really love though is right before the last fight that training, like not training, but warning up the like rocking back and forth talking him into it.
I think that is phenomenal. I think, I mean, I think the whole movie's when I go. I love the love's and the trunk. Yeah.
Yeah. That whole thing. I used to like that like this is a John. That's a John thing, but if her accent's bad, then I can't.
I can't stand it. The John thing. It's a John. It's a John.
It's a now. It's like a safe piece of John's. This is a John's. This is a John's.
His restaurant was the name of the John. You got a John? I do. No.
I did see this movie in Philadelphia. Actually, I was about to say I didn't see it, but it was about the sleepy crowd. They didn't really, they didn't give me what I wanted. I could be a sleepy.
Listen, you need to go to Philadelphia sometime. If it's not the Super Bowl and the Eagles in the Super Bowl, they don't can. There was something about that whole John thing that like once you call attention to it, if anybody hasn't seen the movie and doesn't know what we're talking about, basically there's a Bianca uses the term John to like she just uses the way you would normally use it. Like, you know, that's my John over there or like, oh, that John, but you need the accent to not if she had the accent he would never have had to ask what a John was because he wouldn't have really understood what she said, but he would have known.
It just was a weird thing and then she has to explain it and then she has to use the word to explain it. Oh, man. I love Tessa Thompson. So what was your most rewatchable?
I'm the one shop. You guys took mine. I agree with you guys. I also think that that can't the scene where he vomits in the ring and you know that he's sick.
It is a painterly. It is a sort of Renaissance lighting painting situation and how dark the background is and how like starkly in relief against that background they are and you don't really know what's going on. But you know, I mean, well, you kind of knew if you've ever been to a movie, you know, he's like got cancer, but there's just something really beautiful about how that's handled and that the presentation of his illness is happening in a boxing ring and they put up they put a fine point on it later, which is basically I think Michael Jordan basically says to him to get him to go to the chemotherapy is something like, you know, if you if I'll fight if you fight or something like that, or I'm not going to fight if you don't fight or something like that. And I just thought that sequence is so it's just beautiful.
Everything so many things in this movie are needlessly beautiful. This didn't have to look this good. This didn't have to be that professional. Yeah, there's that scene when they kiss for the first time and just thing is also bad.
Geez, really? I don't be hungry. They flip it around so that their heads are upside down. Yeah.
It's just a stink. There's that other shot when they go on the date for the first time and they're in the booth and in the first part of it, he shoots them from the side. So you just see the half so the booths that they're in and eventually makes it like he's doing all this shit in this movie that every time I watch it, I see stuff. You know, that's cool.
The first time I saw it, I knew I just had complete confidence in the movie pretty much from Felicia Rassad for shots performance in the first scene. Yeah. I'm not going to be in the tone of her voice. Yeah.
No, I'm not, you know, like the, the sense of history in the way that she performs it. It's like it's a small scene and a small performance, but she also stands out to me. Like she doesn't have to be as good as she is. I've never even showed up.
I remember her being in this movie. I think even before that moment too, when they, when we're in the juvenile detention facility and the camera is on like a zip line when it cuts through the hallway, runs in and there's a fight happening kind of the television area like that. That's just, it's like more high level than it was like a side to be. Also, you know, it's interesting when the scene when she goes to meet him, when Felicia Rassad's character goes to see him for the first time in that center, the shot, the framing of the shot is the camera's on her and then there's a doorway and then all the way in, in, in a deep focus, out of focus though leaning against a wall or a desk or something is the woman is, you know, the guidance counselor or the social worker, whatever, keeping an eye on the two of them.
Right. And I mean that, that shot goes on for about a maybe a little bit, like a minute. Yeah. I just, what a weird choice, but a choice that tells you what the stakes are and what normal operating procedure is in a place like that.
Right. It just, there's so many really good touches. This guy, he's in the gym, Leo's dad who wants rock to train and rock starting to go there and they'll sneak him in like rock will be training Michael B and you'll see that you'll see Leo's dad and just in the background, you barely notice them kind of like eyeball them and watch him. What's going on?
Right. Got to get touches. Lot of really, really good. What is your pick for the scene?
I, the two round box match I would go with, but I also ride with the ATV scene. I love it. I just think that's so cool. I get so fired up.
It's got a new concept. I love it with the Eagle Super Bowl two and the Miq Mill be in the soundtrack. My kids like Creed. My kid, Rocky's too slow for my kids.
My kids will, Rocky three, Rocky four that can get through, Rocky one slow. Creed is, that's kind of like their version of going to fly now. You know, it's the generational aspect of it, I think is really cool and could have gone really badly in the wrong hands, you know, where they're like, Hey, we should have a hip hop song here. Like you're the wrong director.
Like that's an awful scene. Well, the idea that you would take, you would take Bill Conti's score and keep alluding to it for the whole movie. I mean, it doesn't depart from it, honors it in so many ways. Slow motion in that scene too.
Like that comes, it's playing the Miq Mill and you're into it. And then all of a sudden it goes slow. And everything stops and she gets super quiet for a couple seconds. It's really nice.
I just got. Also, the theme hits as the final round begins. Oh, that's like so chill. Casting what ifs couldn't find any.
It's usually that stuff doesn't surface for about 10 years and it's probably all inaccurate in the internet. I think this seemed like coogler and MBJ and Sly. I don't know if anyone else is like that. I think that sounds like the only one who was sort of like, they had to audition people and bring people in, right?
Yeah. I mean, nobody, she did the best she could with a part she made a bold choice with. You think she had a friend from Philly that she was dealing with. I was thinking about what made her do it.
But I honestly think that that person has to be from Philadelphia in my ways, right? And making her look like Lisa Bonet, which is a very specific Philadelphia type. I mean, immediately I know where she lives. I know what her story is, which is not great.
There's a lot. Can you talk to us more about how Lisa Bonet influenced the fashion slash look choices of that year? Lisa Bonet was everywhere between Zoe Kravitz determining that she was going to look like her mother for a little bit. Great choice.
Who would have checked it out between Lisa Bonet sort of being out with Jason Momoa, like, you know, on the town with her man. Hollywood with the weirdest couple. It's weirdest couple though. I think there's like a 20 year age difference.
Anytime there's an age difference like that, I'm always fascinated. I'm delighted by the two of us. They are a sexy couple. You can only tell that there's an age difference because you looked it up.
Like, I mean, it's not like you could look at them and be like, I'm still in love with Lisa Bonet. I'm still in love with Lisa Bonet. I think America, I think America kind of is too. And I would ever bill Cosby.
It's complicated, right? Because because of how we know her. But I think also what you're saying is like she's angel hearts. But like her vision of beauty, what she looks like is a very powerful vision of you now in 2018.
Like that is considered an ideal in many ways. And she's like, she's very responsible for that. And we never gave her credit for like how black that beauty was despite the bed accent. Well, not hardly so Bonet.
I mean, not Testa Thompson Lisa Bonet. This kick, this kick started like a little bit of a Testa Thompson movement too. I mean, I was, I'm with her since back in Veronica Mars days. But absolutely.
Thank you. She's Thor Ragnarok. I was a big look for her. She is going to be an increasingly famous person.
She's an annihilation. She's an annihilation. You know, like, she's probably going to be a movie star. And that's interesting that this is kind of where it starts.
She's going to Westworld. I love Lisa Bonet. And it still kills me that she died in enemy of the state because I don't even like. Why did she have to die in the movie?
No sense. Why did she die? I haven't seen it in a minute, actually. That's the lost great Will Smith movie.
But she was his ex, right? She was his ex, right? They used to DM what they had. Yeah, but they had his.