CROSSOVER — Turing-Incomplete

Welcome back, everyone. This is the changewog and I'm your host, Adam Stikoviak. This is episode 173, and on today's show, we're going by Pam Selley, Dravondari, Justin Campbell, and Len Smith, the folks behind Turing Incomplete, a new podcast to be found on the web at Turing. Cool.

Great show today, where we can put fellow podcasts out there discussing open source software development, podcasting, building community, and more. We had four awesome sponsors, Co-Chip, Imgix, Harvest, and also Sentry. Our first sponsor is Co-Chip. Co-Chip launched a brand new feature called Organizations a Few Months Back.

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Again, that code is the changewog podcast, 100% off any plan you choose for three months. Head to co-chip.com slash the changewog is started, and one more thing I want to tell you about. Sean Devine is doing an API workshop called API First Training, and guess what? He's going to use co-chip as a demo tool.

The URL to learn more about that API training is in our show notes, so check those out. But now, onto the show. Alright, everyone, we have a bit of a show lined up today. Today's show is cool.

It's a crossover show where we connect with fellow podcasters out there to discuss open source software development, podcasting, building community, and more. And today, Jared and I are joined by the folks behind Turing and Complete, which can be found on the web at Turing.cool. So please welcome, hey, I'm selling you Drifandari, Justin Campbell, and Bill N Smith, and obviously, Jason, everyone say hello. Thanks for having me.

Hey, hey, hey. I guess the easiest way to open this one up is is this your first time being on somebody else's podcast? It is for me. This is Justin.

For me, no. Pam. It is for me, Siobhan. And me, Len as well, too.

Okay. So how much are you on? Shop talk. Awesome.

Love those guys, by the way. Yeah, they're really fun. That shows live, right? So is that super stressful for you or just amazing?

No, it's pretty fun. And the only thing is the, because it can be a little distracting watching the chat flow by. So you kind of have to, I would have to just kind of minimize it, because people are chatting while you're talking, which is normal but hard when you're trying to be the one talking. We've flirted with live, Adam.

We have definitely flirted with live. We've held hands. We've gone out on several dates. It just hasn't stuck, honestly.

It's a good idea in theory, but I think this kind of show typically, maybe not this particular episode, but this show in general, just seemed to work out better when it was sort of like a one to one or a one to a few conversations. So that's that way it's like sort of tighter, more intimate, less like pressure to perform, I guess, you know, for a crowd when it's live, it just, and then also if you listen to Dan Benjamin or anybody else who does live shows, the numbers on live shows continue to dwindle while the subscribers and podcast listeners on the actual shows continue to go up. And so, you know, depending upon the show type, live can work for you if it's like, if it's part of the DNA of the show, where it's, this show is never originally live. So it kind of never stuck for us.

I mean, when we start talking about live, I assumed you meant like sitting in a table in front of a crowd, and I would be really nervous doing that. That too. That's not worse. Before we get too far into things, let's, let's, we're going to spend a little bit of time getting to know everyone.

So we have an intro a little bit of history. So we'll start from the top, which is Pam. So Pam, can you kind of introduce yourself to the audience of the change log and kind of give a bit about who you are and if you want to mention your birthday last week, you're welcome to. Oh, well, you know, since you mentioned the National Holiday, my birthday was last week.

So just in case anyone missed it, you can mark it for next year. So I'm a developer in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania. I am known on the internet for a few things, notably for JavaScript. I speak at JavaScript conferences pretty often.

My latest talk is about the streams data structure and how awesome it is. And that's where we met when I gave that talk at any at Nebraska JS home. And I also, in real life, I also run a JavaScript meetup in Philadelphia. We have over 1000 members, and we also run a JavaScript conference here at two years running.

And I also wrote a book, and I record with these folks on turning complete. So I do lots of also I'm working another book. It's finding your next job as a developer. How do you go to guide?

Can you give us a secret together? We'll let people read the book to find out. Sure. I mean, the secret is that you can apply for jobs the the really frustrating and inefficient way of gathering a resume and putting a cover letter together and then emailing people who don't care about you who will never call you back, or you can approach it in a systematic way that will with a plan with, you know, like, because there is a way to do it.

And that's really what the book is. It's like, you know, you can disagree with the way to do it. It doesn't involve a lot of networking. And you know, that's like, literally, so you know how everyone always says like most jobs are found through networking, according to BLS data, which the way that numbers drive is in.

But anyway, about 78% of jobs are found through networking. And but then no one tells you how to do it. So what this book is, it's specifically for developers. Here's how it works.

And if you follow these steps, this is how it works. And it should work for you. Interesting. Yeah, Google search didn't leave me to it with that finding your next job as a developer.

So we'll have to get a leave from you. No, I don't have a, I actually don't have a book page where I'm still very much writing it. But if you go to the webivore, which is my blog, I have a mailing list there and I'm sending out updates that mailing list. So that's where the first beta will be announced.

And there's a few posts leading up to that. So I did find a link to burn your resume when doing that Google search, which was just the same. So I assume that we can send people. Fantastic.

All right. Jeff, I want to see what you. Oh, man, it's hard to follow up after Pam. I'm a developer in Philadelphia.

And I really want to ask for the RV, which is the Philadelphia Ruby user group. And I'm answering a complete. And that's about it. It's about it on the internet.

You can find me at Trevon. No, no books, no books. No books in her book writing. Trevon also speaks about closure script.

Yeah, I was going to miss the closure thing too. Well, we just had an episode on closure. Last week, we had Karen Meyer, Dravon, you may know her as Giga Squid, talking closure. She spoke very highly of closure script.

Yes, she sure did. She probably turned some heads to with thinking like I should do that. And she wrote a book, by the way, John, if you didn't know. Living closure, right?

Living closure. That's right. That's right. Hands book is still in beta.

So you know if you sweet talk, or maybe you can get a buy line on that thing. There you go. That's the first word, something, you know, prologue. All right, Justin, what do you think?

I've heard that if you have a, sometimes we feel like Wikipedia page and you're not important enough to have Wikipedia page, you'll take it down. But one of the things they need is like a source, which is a newspaper book. So I guess if you write a book, you're important enough to have a Wikipedia page. That sounds like a route to take.

On this one, you're off to take. Is that your intro? Well, I'm not sure if that has a Wikipedia page or not. Okay.

I wouldn't make my own Wikipedia page. How about a book? You'll have one in a five-minute page. That'd be a good book.

How do you write a Wikipedia page? And the first step is write a book and then set two is, I guess, I'm on Wikipedia now. Da-da-da-da. Stuff to profit.

Yeah, exactly. So easy. So my name is Justin Campbell. I'm a software developer also, as all four of us are.

I work for a company called HashiCorp, which makes a lot of open source tools, and I work on a product called Atlas, which is trying to be GitHub for ops. Easy way to put it. And I organize a software craft and ship me up in Philadelphia called software as craft. And occasionally, I get conference talks, but I've been busy not doing side-project things in the past few months.

I'm sensing a trend of Philadelphia, too, here. Yes. Well, we're off in Philadelphia originally for the past few years, except we moved to Seattle a couple months ago. Yes.

I would say I'm a Philadelphia living in Seattle currently. My heart's in Philly. Soon to be. I was wondering why you're not in Philly anymore.

Oh, my partner moved out here for work. So I followed since I'm in software and can work wherever. Very cool. Awesome.

So turning incomplete is a Philadelphia joint by way of Seattle. Yes. Why don't you guys tell us a little bit about the show. Let's start with kind of the genesis, and then we'll move on to the name, which I think is quite cool.

And then the URL, which is literally dot cool. I don't think today will end introduction either. Oh, we did it. Kind of just said that I was currently in Seattle.

Yeah, my name's Len Smith. I'm a Rails developer, which means I write JavaScript all day. And yeah, currently in Seattle. There you go.

Sorry about that, Len. Yeah, I guess the start of turning complete. Gervan and I had talked about doing a podcast for about a year. And we were wondering who else we would want to be on the podcast, and Pam instantly came to mind as a friend of ours, and somebody who was well known as a Philadelphia community.

And we both worked with Len. I didn't actually know that Len was interested in podcasting until we were mentioning it one day. And he said, oh, I tried to make a podcast before, and he would have got a logo and other things. Oh, no, I didn't try.

I was always planning on it. I was just very bad at procrastinating. Okay. Commissioned artwork and always planned to do it.

So the four of us got to approach me. Yes. And pick the date and just decide to record. And the first one was Pamela's.

Pamela was an Indian. Yeah, I forgot about that. I was okay. I got started on.

Well, yeah, that was okay. That was absolutely awful. But it was good. It was a good practice, Ron.

And yeah, when Justin approached me, like I said, I've been procrastinating for literally years. And I'm like, sure, I'll be interested. He's like, okay, we're going to record tomorrow. So that was good.

And I started on TDD is dead. Question mark. Episode two, TDD is alive again. Absolutely.

There's actually an episode zero that recorded with another co-worker in front of ours, Dan and Chlorie. That was episode zero and that was never published. Not nice. Well, that's what zero is for is you don't put it out there.

Yeah. That's the test, Ron. Although in reality, the first five were probably dead. Well, you know, that's the fun thing with podcasting, kind of to grow into it a little bit.

You know, and it takes, I mean, geez, to tell our history. Our first few are not bad, but I think audio quality wise, just in general from a podcast, what people know of a podcast today, they think a little bit more, higher quality, a bit more put together. Whereas in 2009, it was just like, if you got audio on the internet that's audible, it's a podcast. Well, as I said, I did the phone thing, talk shoe.

Remember live podcast in like 2009, 2010, were recorded over like telephone? Yeah. Huh. Right.

None of that. One of our, actually, our first podcast had, Natalie Wisenbaum in it. And at the time, the call had to be done via a phone, not from us, but for for she. So that's how it worked out.

Seems like podcasting is kind of like TV shows where certain ones have to kind of get their legs. And you can judge it by the pilot, so to speak, you're not going to find too many shows that you like. No. But you wait until like six episodes in, or you wait until season two sometimes, in a traditional TV format.

And that's when things usually start to get interesting. Did you find it took just a handful for you guys to really gel? I think it took a handful for us to nail down the format. We went, I think we still do go back and forth.

And do we need a topic or should we do a topic? Should we go topic class or? Yeah, it is. What is the format then?

So right now, we mostly just talk for an hour or so, I call the four of us and we record and then we cut it together into a show. The first, I would say 20, 25 episodes, we tried to do a topic every episode, if we weren't doing a guest. And for me personally, that ended up being really stressful, trying to pick a topic before we recorded. We had a lot of tension and anxiety about if we didn't have a topic yet, like should we record?

And I found that a lot of podcasts I listened to, I really enjoyed the conversational style and just kind of a friends hanging out, style recording. And it's really hard also to pick a topic every week and have it be a different topic when, you know, the four of us had at least apart from software development, the first set of skills in software development and now, but we're not an expert in that many things. When you have a guest, it's really easy to, you know, that guest is usually very qualified, talking that subject and you can have a different subject every week. But for the four of us, I found it kind of hard to pick a topic and start talking about things we didn't know that much about.

But I know other people in the podcast really like to have a topic. So when we talked before though, Pam, you said that you all don't have a topic and you just sort of wing it. Is that still the case? Yeah, I mean, that's the case now.

Yeah, that's what we, I like the topics. But so also our pattern for topics was kind of picking a noun. And then that would be the topic. And eventually we kind of, the well was there and get then on nouns that we felt like talking about.

Well, that we got qualified though. Yeah, I mean, there were, but now that now we just talk about things we're unqualified to talk about. So it all works out. Mostly like, sir.

Mostly, you know, yeah. A listener and JavaScript remarks. Well, I guess that's sort of a part we kind of missed a little bit. Not so much a full on deep history of each of you, but I guess to get an idea of any show like, for example, here at the change level, our roots are in Ruby.

Jared and I are both in the Ruby community. We've been doing that for a very long time. What would each of you say to kind of the kind of program you are, or maybe even what your specialties are, what you love doing most, is that play into the role you play in the podcast. And I guess if you want to take turns, we can start paying.

Could you re-state the question? Well, just like, you know, what kind of software developer are you, and is that the same role each of you kind of play in the podcast? I think I'm a Gryffindor, but sometimes people think I'm a Ravenclaw. Okay.

And that's okay, because, you know, I'm really clever. No, I don't really, I don't. So because I've done a lot of JavaScript development, I feel like when, when I get asked this question, I might be misinterpreting it, but I often read it as a subtext of someone saying, okay, well, so you're a front-end developer. And like, that's all you're ever being.

That's all you ever want to know. And we're not trying to put you in a box here. No, no, no, not at all. Generally speaking.

I've worked in such work on it. So like, I just, I switched to a team where I'm doing something totally different. I'm not really doing website development anymore, or working on things that end in a website. I'm working on the layer that supports other development platforms.

And so, no, I don't think it would be called middleware, actually. It might be. Services, let's just put it on that sort of thing. Services, yeah.

Because other people write middleware that then uses this. So it's a where it's almost like. But I do have to think though that, like, when we do have a JavaScript question, we go to either LAN or PAM, because they're more knowledgeable about JavaScript then. I mean, pay more to book on JavaScript.

Yeah. Right. I'm getting hired now, too, obviously as a developer. So I guess what we're trying to do, we can go quickly through this, but just trying to get a heartbeat of like, a little bit about your background and how does that play into the overall aspect of like, how you reach every week, you know, define what turning it to play it is, and what an episode is, whether it's a guested show or it's a winged show.

Right. And also, not just your programming background, but like what your individual interests are and how that comes together to have. It's cool. I have some shows where it's, you know, it's interview style, it's topical, you know, other shows where it's like, hey, it's four people who love programming and we talk about it, which sounds like that's the kind of show that Turing incomplete is.

Absolutely. And just to give, you know, our listeners a bit of an idea, not like how the show goes, but just the people that they would be hanging out with. Like, what are you guys' interests and what are the kind of things that are talked about? We know that JavaScript is one of them, but I'm sure there's plenty of things that you guys dive into.

We're interested in functional programming. I think that's a bend that we're all interested in talking more about. Yeah, I listened to a show, I think it was number 59, people leader, where there was a lot of elixir talk going on. You guys have mentioned elixir, I think by name, I think, Dravon or Justin did, who's the elixir fans and, you know, give us some information on why you're into that.

I mean, yeah, for me, I mean, it's weird because we tend to talk about what we're excited about, which isn't necessarily, we do all day. Sure. We do our day jobs, I think starts to get a little boring after a while, and then we play around with something for a couple hours a night, and that's what we're most excited about. Yeah, I think that's true.

I think for a bunch of us, that's been elixir. Really summary of it. Yeah, we do our day jobs, but we end up talking about, so we each have our own friends, which might be what you meant in your original question. So, I'm into JavaScript stuff and math stuff and new research that comes out.

I'm not good at security, but I'm trying to learn more about it. So that's something that always fascinates me. So any practical steps or even just tips you can give our listeners, anybody who else is interested in learning security, have you made any progress or found any good resources? You know, I try and I kind of, I follow a few more people on Twitter that I do, and I read their blog post.

I also joined the, so it's simply secure is a non-profit that focuses, I would say they focus on usable security, because the biggest hole in security is humans, and so by fixing user, while by improving, just mirror it. Like, if you ever downloaded GPG tools, you will deeply understand why such a non-profit needs to exist to improve user experience. So if GPG tools is supposed to be a tool, so GPG tools is a downloadable suite of things that enables you to use PGP encryption technology, pretty good privacy, which is certainly a good idea because everything on the internet is like, all your emails are basically postcards flying over the internet. So if you want them to not be postcards, maybe you should learn a little bit about encryption or at least learn how to use it.

And so it's simply secure is a slack that a lot of people I think are really interesting are on, so like, like, be krypt is someone on Twitter who I think their stuff is really cool, and they just joined the slack and so I'm like, oh my gosh, they're gonna, you know, I can see what they're talking about, and there's different rooms on research and design and crypto. So you can kind of keep track of what, what people who I would think are experts think of this kind of stuff. Very cool. Jovon, how about yourself?

Interested either inside of work or outside of work, things that you dabble with in the development world? What do you want to do? These days are really into Emacs and closure, slash Closier script, Closier script seems easier for me to use at work, or my old job, but maybe closure will be easier now. Yeah, I'm just having a lot of fun.

These days improving my tool chain, which is where Emacs comes in. Awesome. So we've been considering this show, I'll kind of give you a little behind the scenes here at the changelog. We've had a show we've been considering, which is kind of editor wars, and it's kind of, you know, it's a play on the fact that everybody gets so excited and passionate about their editor, but the idea is to get, you know, kind of three or four, not experts, but people who are kind of outspoken in specific camps of him and Emacs and so on, Adam, and I have a short list of people I like to have on, except for in the Emacs area, I'm not really sure like who is a prominent Emacs user that people look to as a source of information or aid.

Could you help me out with that? Is there somebody in the Emacs world that we should have on the show? Me? No.

I'm not sure. I have to look into that. Mattie, who's the person who wrote Closure Breathe and True? I forget his name, but Technomancy, he wrote the line tool.

He's really helpful on the Emacs channel. I think he also is involved with the Ergadox keyboards. What are those? It's a very ergonomic keyboard that Len has.

Len, do you want to explain that? What's the... Yeah, just to basically make yourself look really elite, it's like a split keyboard. Mine has no keycaps, and you can program it to do all kind of things.

So it's nice and ergonomic, and it has less keys than a normal keyboard, and you can basically switch layers. So basically, your arrow keys, your HJK, L, and VIM, you can switch a layer and make those actual arrow keys, and then you can pop them up to a different layer. And there's all kind of hacks you do that I haven't dived that deep into yet. That's amazing.

You're so elite that you need less keys than ever. But I did mention about Emacs. I think the editor kind of making waves are the configuration making waves now, and what brought me on board to Emacs is SpaceMax, which is highly controversial in each world, because it basically ships with complete VIM key bindings. And I was very skeptical of that, because normally that means some movement keys work, and a couple macros work, and that's it.

But it is a very complete VIM implementation. I was hacking around and absent-mindedly, because I was just forgotten that I was not in VIM. I used one of the plugins in VIM, a popular plugin called Surround.VIM, and I did James surrounding parentheses, and it worked, and that just blew my mind. So it's a weird shift because a lot of people are coming to Emacs through SpaceMax, but it's basically VIM.

And I think I even said recently that VIM is still my favorite editor, SpaceMax. It's just a better VIM than VIM is. So that's interesting. I'm an old-time VIM user, but I'm one of the, my old-time, I mean, like, 2001, 2002, so I'm sure there's net beards were way older than that.

So I'm not that elite. But I'm one of the VIM users who doesn't like VIM. Like, I have it ingrained into my fingers, but I don't think it's that awesome. I mean, it's good.

But I prefer, like, I actually use the VIM quite often. And that's my main editor, mostly. I use VIM as kind of a secondary editor on servers. But one thing Sublime ships with is like VIM mode, where you can use some of the VIM key binding.

So it kind of seems like it's a little bit similar to SpaceMax in the sense of it's merging of the two worlds. And at first, I thought, that's amazing. I can use my VIM key binding inside of Sublime. But in reality, it didn't really work out so well.

It was kind of like the Uncanny Valley, where it's like so close to VIM without actually being VIM that it actually frustrated me nonstop. So I wonder how SpaceMax avoids that problem, where if you've actually felt the Uncanny Valley at all? No, and I did feel the same thing. I tried to use VIM mode in Sublime and Redine.

And there's just, you'll do something and it doesn't work. And then that's just the most frustrating thing. And I've found next to nothing that doesn't work in SpaceMax. Awesome.

Yeah, we might need to get the SpaceMax developer on the show. We actually had somebody ping us at him about having SpaceMax on the show. And that kind of was what got me the idea of the editor or show. That would be a really awesome panel show, too.

I think that, I mean, obviously, everybody can bring their own rage and their own thoughts and walk away with nothing, of course, because that's how it always works. It's like a tear up battle and everybody leaves and nobody gets really to a new side. It's just sort of like everybody fights, and that's really how it works out. But a lot of good conversation about that.

I mean, there can definitely be good that come out of that. Well, for example, you just mentioned the Vim of Sublime. And I'm sure there's tons of Sublime users out there that listen to the show right now. They're like, what?

It has that. And so now they're going to go check it out and sort of do the SpaceMax best of both sides kind of thing. Well, we've definitely gotten a chance to learn a little bit more about each of you during folks and see the backgrounds and the influences you bring to your show. We're going to take a quick break.

And when we come back, I want to dive a little deeper into the part you're going to show. I'm not sure if we got the full complete answer on what terrain complete means. So maybe we can cover that and then let it dive into some of your goals. So let's take a break and we come back.

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All right, we're back. We had a nice pause there. And during that pause, we had some inner discussion about who the leader of this show might be. And there's some controversy.

I'm not sure. Justin, you say it's Len. Len, you say it's Justin. Pam's saying, I'm not going to do that.

I'll just be on the show. Who's taking ownership of being the leader of Tering and Pleat? Definitely Len. He's the host.

It was Justin's idea and Justin's production. So I have food, Justin. Although if you argue that, Pam find a letter, I guess. Jibon, you should pick a lot of topics.

So it's a team effort then. Yeah, it is. All right, well, let's team effort the meme. If you want opinions, you should get a Justin.

Okay, now we're starting to get into good stuff. Well, let's figure out the name of the show. So the name of the show is Tering and Complete. And we all understand what Tering is, and the Tering Test and things like that, or maybe some listeners do.

But if it goes back as far as to explain that, can we talk about where the name came from, and we'll dive into some deeper questions around the podcast itself, and goals, and things like that. Yeah, we were just throwing names around, and we thought it was funny. I think I might have suggested it. But yeah, Tering and completeness is a language that can essentially implement another language is Tering and Complete.

Or more formally, anything that is effectively computable can be computed by a Tering machine, or anything that is Tering and Complete. And so being incomplete means what for your show, which should do listeners and guests? When you're not universally computable, I guess. It was just a really means nothing.

It's just a plain words. Although the main thing's pretty awesome, and I think that he found a Tering.cool. Yes, that is cool. Oh, actually, it is.

That is cool. I like that. It's not as cool as ABC.xyz, but it's right up there. We're not allowed to bet.

So what are, I think when our listeners, and any listener of any podcast, some come to this show for the technical content, some come to it because of the person that's on the show. It's just really a mixed bash of why people listen to podcasts. But I know it's at some point in the back of everyone's minds or thinking like, what's the point of the show? What are your goals for the show?

Is it to get rich? What is it that drives you all to do the show for a year, once a week, accumulate 60 episodes, do a great job at producing the show and all that good stuff? What is it that drives you and what are some of your, do you have any goals? Well, I would say probably half of our listeners are Philadelphia based, and they just know about it because we are a Philadelphia podcast.

And there's only, I think, a few technical podcasts in Philadelphia. Yeah, my goals are just I just enjoy recording with the other three people, and I just like talking about, I work remotely, so I don't get a lot of the face-to-face interaction and just general chatting about technology. So I actually like every week just talking about whatever's on our minds. Yeah, same for me.

I mean, I want to talk about software anyway, so why not just record it and make a podcast of it? Well, it takes more time, more effort, more coordination, just for a few reasons. It seems like I agree with that being around working myself. One of the reasons I got involved in the change log was so I could talk to people about what I do, you know, and being an independent contractor as well.

I tend to work on projects by myself or in very small teams. And so I was excited to not just talk to people in the community, but also to get a chance to pick the brains of people who are smarter and way better at programming than I am. So I definitely agree with that motivation. Yeah, and I think that's getting more to it, right?

Well, so for me personally, when I first said the idea of I want to record a podcast, a lot of podcasts I listened to were more surface-level software engineering in the community and they didn't really get into technical details of things. And I don't know if we've succeeded on that goal of mine to do more technical podcasts, but that's one of the reasons I wanted to make a new podcast originally. So let's dive a little deeper into the topic then. And then one thing you guys said earlier, which is something that we sort of deal with as a symptom of us, is we're not experts in every subject matter that we cover here at the gene log.

So do you all feel the same pressure to somehow perform or be a subject matter expert? Or is that what you lean on guests for? Yeah, I think we're going to guess for that definitely helps. We've definitely had a lot of episodes where we just blabber about whether it's JavaScript frameworks or languages we're trying or editors.

Like I don't think any of us have an email actually more than a few months. Maybe you're wrong, I've been using it for more than a few months. If we talk about that a lot, we talk about JavaScript frameworks and things that we're just trying out. We've talked about Elixir a lot recently.

And I don't think any of us look through ourselves. Experts are going to use topics. So yeah, we only have any fear of just chatting about what we're trying. Do you think it's fair to say that you're all practitioners in said fields that you represent, obviously, and you're sort of coming together and just sharing notes to a degree and maybe diving a bit deeper into the unknowns or the knowns?

Yes, I'm going to put it, I suppose. Maybe I'll ask maybe a library on that. Yeah, I think having guests is a good way for me to kind of get to talk to that person or give that person a reason to talk to me and for me to pick their brains about whatever we both have interest in. And then, originally, I had said to Justin, we have all these interesting conversations.

It would be nice to record them and go back to listen to them, in case I forget or to share them. And then it's just a good opportunity to catch up or get valued friends opinions on certain things. What's the sequence of it? Is it weekly?

Is it semi-weekly? Does it say it's weekly? What's your frequency? It's semi-weekly and we're still going to see if we can schedule time that we record this week.

So we aim for every week. Okay. So that's kind of like us. I mean, we can limit a little bit with that because we did aim to be weekly.

And I would probably say that we aimed to be weekly mainly because there was no one doing it full time. And as of February this year, I stepped away from my full-time job as your charity, where I was a product manager to finally step away to do the change of full time. So I guess since then, Jerry, we've been pretty good at being consistent with you, sir. Yeah.

I mean, I think the game changes when a show is sustainable financially for somebody to put a full-time effort into it. And so I think that has really stabilized us and allowed us to ship an episode each and every Friday, which has been awesome. I'm going to be financials, too. Yeah, up until then, you know, it's a struggle.

There's scheduling conflicts, especially with guests. It's difficult because you have guests on conflicts. But I think with Terry and Incomplete, probably you're guys are scheduling as difficult because you have four regulars, right? It's more people to align up every week.

Yeah, we just recently decided on a time that we just went record every week. And then we're going to ship the same day every week. So we've been doing that for a few weeks now, and I think we've missed probably half of them. So we're still trying to adjust to that.

Well, guidelines is what it takes, though. You don't always have to like hit those marks, but it's good to at least have them. So you know what the expectation is of where you're trying to go, you know, some goals in place. So, Jared, you mentioned financials for us, and that sort of allowed me to step away.

Let's talk a bit about, I guess, financial matters for you all. When it comes to goals, is part of your goal to be sponsored? Will you ever be sponsored? Do you care about sponsors?

Do you care about making money at this? We actually had, I guess, debates or whether or not we should be sponsored when we were trying to get stickers. And sometimes we debate editing, if we should pay someone to edit and if we should get sponsorship for that. I don't think our goal is to make money from it.

Maybe have it sustain itself eventually. But yeah, any other thoughts on that? I think right now we don't have a listenership to really make that sustainable. And I don't think we, like, our show is much less edited than your guys show, like talking about the time we put into it.

Basically, my workflow is to take our Skype call and just run some filters on it and put it on S3. So our costs are very minimal. So we're not super worried about it. If we didn't move to like a sponsorship model, we would need to put a lot more production into it.

I mean, this isn't the podcast, but we love Dan Benjamin around here. We're on 5x5, syndicated through 5x5. We've got a relationship with them. And he shares tons of good advice.

But I think at the same time, and Darren maybe helped me with digging deeper into this. But I feel like there's something that, not something good or bad, but something changes when it does make money. Like it has to, or it needs to sustain itself. There's some services to pay for, whether it's an editor, whether it's hosting services, whatever you can think of.

I know S3 builds are really small when it comes to podcast weight, but there's something that shifts when it becomes a paid thing. You gotta get not so much more serious, but like an edge of professionalism that not so much you all don't have, but that you are required to have. Whereas now y'all can walk to it and say, this is fun, I enjoyed doing it, had fun at the end of the day, or if it got to the point where you all have said that you don't really want to go, which is getting it sponsored, it might make it too serious and take the fun or do we got it? What do you think?

I think that's where, like Len and I think Justin are both kind of coming from. I'm on team, get money, get paid, but- Nice. But like that's generally a life motto, but I mean, I respect the rest of the podcast decision. The Joker said the best if you're good at something, don't give it away for free.

The Joker, the Joker, yeah. Okay, so okay, I would, yeah. I prefer to take my quotes from like Oprah or something, you know, maybe not, you know, a deranged character. Well, you know, he did stab, and he did take the pencil and put it in the guy's line, explain why that made sense, because he made it disappear.

Or was it very logical? Yeah, very, very logical. I'm with you though, so take me deeper there. So why are you on team, make money, team get paid?

What is it for you? And can we sway everyone else on the show now to be on that same team? No. I mean, it's that if, so I mean, it's the question of, can you take money and not compromise your integrity?

And I think that that is kind of a personal level. I mean, I would be, I guess the only, the only contingency for being able to take money and keep your integrity is the ability to walk away if the money has to stop. And so as long as you're willing to walk away if the money has to stop. And so, I mean, we deal with this with the JavaScript meetup.

Like if we, you know, we get sponsors, and if ever, a sponsor said, well, you know, we're, I don't know, we're terrible people and we want to discriminate against this person because of something about them that they can't change or something, and we're gonna pull our money. And we would say, okay, great, take your money and leave, bye. Uh, that's, that's what we would do. And that's how we would maintain our integrity.

And I think that that just goes for, I would apply that to every context. So I don't see a problem with taking money so long as, and it's a negotiation. You say, like when, when someone says, hey, we want to, you know, sponsor your meetup and we want to come and do a sales pitch to your, your people and we want to get their emails and their names and their phone numbers afterward, we say no, because that's not, that doesn't jive with integrity for us. And so I don't see a problem with taking money in the podcast.

Len doesn't think we could get money in the podcast. I think that we could get money in the podcast. I think we could. But basically, the way the way the discussion was solved, as I just, I want to share this, is that I was like, all right, let's, you know, I'm sure I can go get money and then we can, you know, pay for the stickers and stuff, and then Justin just put it in order for stickers.

And that was how it was resolved. And it was fine because then we had stickers. And now we actually have a link where people can order their own sticker. So, very nice.

Let's link. Yeah, what does that link? It's on the website. So it's right on the first page.

Awesome. Turing.cool. Turing.cool. Let's just keep saying that to me.

Sometimes we can because it's so cool. Very cool. Well, I think, I like that you guys have, you guys have thought through this, you know, kind of where you stand. It sounds like if money or sponsorship presented itself to you, maybe it wouldn't be something you're like antagonistic to, but not necessarily a goal.

Kind of opposed to a person. Yeah. There's not too many people who are like diametrically opposed to getting paid to do something they already are doing for fun. But have you guys ever heard the term pod fading?

Pod fading? I don't know if it's still around. There is a dictionary for this. Is that what happens when we stop publishing?

Yeah. So it's kind of this phenomenon where podcasts will fade away. And I saw some statistics a while back, completely unsubstantiated. I won't link them up because I don't even know if they're 100% true, but that majority of podcasts will fade out before they hit double digit episodes.

Like you're either going to fail right away, or you're usually going to stick around for a while. So we do have to take a speaking of sponsor tips. We do have to take a break to hear from one of our awesome sponsors. But when we get back, I want to talk about pod fading with you guys and maybe give tips and tricks on how not to fade out because you've made it to 60, which means you're statistically better than a lot of other podcasts out there.

Yeah. So you're going to share all your secrets when we come back on the other side of the break. We're back. For those out there working solo, we're on a team tracking time.

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And I mentioned before the break that many podcasts fade into oblivion. In fact, Adam, some controversy during the break. Yeah. Change log on the fringe of podfading.

What's your take? Man, we were so close. We were so close. We, uh, so if you do Google search for podfading or podfade, you'll inevitably find an urban dictionary definition of this.

And in part of that definition, it says many podcasts deny their podfade until it's too late. And so part of the break was me, I guess I don't deny the podfade, but I know I was denying it until it was too late. Like that really resonates with me because in 2012, August 2012, around mid-month, we saw producing shows for our own reasons. That's not the name of the show, but nonetheless.

And we didn't resume until who was it? Which guess was that? Was it Justin or was it Len that said we rebooted? Oh, yeah.

Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. That was Justin. I agree to that.

OK, Justin. So Justin said the change log rebooted, right? And I'm like, I don't know about that. So then there's that they're in the lives of me denying the fact that it was too late.

Like, to me, we're just on a break. You know, it's kind of like boyfriend, girlfriend. It's OK. We're still together.

And we're going to come back. Well, I listened to the change log before the break in quotation marks before I fade out. And then it pod fated, right? And then I heard some news about, oh, the change log is starting up again.

So that implied to me like a reboot. So I don't deny it as a reboot. Internally, it doesn't feel like a reboot. It feels like just a change, you know, just a resumption of it, I guess.

So we're definitely in the pod fade definition there, Jerry, for sure. Well, what I was saying before the break is that, you know, even the change log, when it began to fade, it had been going for years. Yeah. And most podcasts don't last that long.

But usually we're at 84, we've seen a digit episode, it's less than a year. And, you know, the hosts decide that it's, you know, not priority or they can't get it going or this, not as fun as they thought it would. But turning complete last at 60 episodes. And you guys haven't faded yet.

It doesn't sound like you're playing on it. So when I was asking before was maybe some tips and tricks, how do you guys keep it going? Always be recording. Always be recording.

That's pretty much it. Yeah, that's a good point. We had a rough patch when Len moved to Seattle. OK.

So dealing with time zone change and, you know, time zones are hard. Time zones are hard. Very hard. Amen.

Why does the sun got to be fun? So did it fade a little bit? Did it fade at all? We definitely had, you know, non...

I mean, Len does the most of our editing. So yeah, we faded a bit. What if Len drops out? Are you guys done dealing?

I mean, like what somebody else got? The editing torch. I don't think anyone's dropped out of this mail. So continue to record and work on it.

So I've had a little bit too. I'm sure Jirvan and Pam could definitely be capable of doing that. Not about timing, but technology was a good. Yeah.

Justin often offers to edit. And then I get very disgruntled about his process. Len's very productive. And he gets to struggle fine too.

So my, my, my editing process is at the right time. It stands on recording. And then I work backwards. And I just cut in the end.

And I cut out anything that I want to cut out. And then I cut in the beginning. And then I just run it through a couple filters. And I ship it.

Len listens to the entire thing. And it takes out like ums and the... It's much a much better product. But I have to imagine it's also much more time intensive.

But even I don't spend that much time. My editing time is probably an hour or so. So I think that's the thing that helped us, you know, keep pulling out shows. Because it's pretty low time commitment every week.

It's an hour to record. Maybe a half hour to plan and an hour to edit this button and put up this. And Justin built a middleman site. So it's a pretty quick process to deploy.

So all of our website is open source. It's also on github.com slash during a complete. And you can see the process. So it runs Travis.

So we basically just put new show. It goes to like our secret beta site. And then if everything looks good, we can make a pull request and merge it. And then it just automatically goes live.

That's an interesting process to be powered. I just need to buy github and Travis. Because we haven't gone that about. We sort of do it all to, I guess.

We're still database backed and all that good stuff. And I guess we'll run a subject of process. What exactly if someone was trying to replicate or follow in your footsteps? What are some of the things that you've learned as part of your process that make it easier for four people in different times than some in the same?

Gather once per week and produce the show. Like what is the process you'll follow? I would say because both time and show every week. So like, for example, recording.

That's probably the biggest question on some people's minds. I mean, like we have our own recording process and some people don't do that people do. You know, not so much the exact software, but like what is, you know, does one person record everybody? Somebody edits it and then, you know, some of the maybe even some of the gear you all use Skype.

What is what is it that powers your podcast? Yeah. So a lot of the things I do are based solely on reducing the time involved to do it. So we use a site plugin called call recorder to record the podcast.

So Leonard has ended and I also recorded the backup. And that has all of our voices in it. We just put it into Audacity and there and combine it all. And call recorder on that can start recording.

Let me start a site call. So there's really no fear of like Oh, we're recording yet or not. It just starts recording as soon as you start to call. What about like naming your five?

You have some sort of special convention as a part of your system. Is it all detailed in your GitHub remake? Oh, yeah, it's just the the episode number. So you're touring dash in complete dash 123.

And then the episodes are all numbered in middleman blog format. So we just have like 65 once a day dot markdown. And then there's a yaml front matter on that, which has all the data about the podcast. Like how big is the where is the mp3 located?

How big is it? How long is it? But we're all our picks. So we generate all those from from that file.

We also recently started using etherpad. Oh, yeah, that's a good one. You're talking about that? Uh, so etherpad is a I guess collaborative editing app from Mozilla.