Hello there everybody. My name is Chris someone. My name is also Chris and my name is also Chris and we've got the three Chris Onwins and here is reggates DB AEL podcasts once again the podcast that brings you nothing but beer and databases and also working from home. That's right.
This is the DBL 19.5 Special in fact obviously myself Chris Kurzwell and Louise are producer Louise all joining us here for a very special edition of DBA All about working from home. What do you say joining us here joining us remotely? Yes, exactly. That's the kicker We are all working from our respective houses.
Isn't that fun? Yeah I'm looking out upon a serene garden that I neglected to cut last year and now it's overgrown and makes me sad on a daily basis Anyway, never mind back to the fact So the purpose of this episode is of course to have a look at working from home Obviously, there are a lot more of us working from home at this particular point in time So of course DBL is bringing you a few of the top tips top successes top thoughts on working from home And unfortunately or unfortunately at this point It's the one episode that Chris Kurzwell has actually done some research for so I'm looking forward to all of his insight there Well, that's because I actually have some experience Chris So I'm sure that you're a pond experience and to look to educate people about some top tips and tricks from working from home as opposed to the previous 19 episodes We know what we're talking about in any case so we've got naturally we do have to start from somewhere and Producer Louise what what beer are you drinking today? Oh Chris is I'm just popped down to the fridge And it's all we've got and I know it's currently the middle of March. I'm actually drinking a brood of a missile to Matthew It's a festive Vienna Lager.
I have checked the date and it's still in date But um it is the exact details says are Vienna Lager walks it into Christmas deck the halls of Bowser Holly missile toen beer So I'm a little bit late to drink it, but you know, it's a tasty one Hey, there is beer and it's a brood dog and we are big fans of brood dog here on this show so that's indeed Chris K How about yourself so this time? I'm just clock the time. We've just gone past five o'clock. So I'm all good We are working from home.
I don't have to drive home. So I've gone for an 8% beer. This is This is one of my favorites. Yeah, this is a big old delirium Or from a brewery the delirium brewery.
I should say if you've ever been to Brussels in particular, then it's hard to escape that name They've got a whole culture of this city that is specifically from them and it's great It's all amazing. I think they've also got a couple of cafes around the continent as well. There's two of these in Amsterdam. They're really nice Good to know So yeah, one of my favorites.
I love Belgium beer in general. We love beer Chris. Just to leave it at that. Yeah, fantastic And of course I am drinking something very dear near and dear to my heart and of course it is a Romanian beer one I actually got from a shop just up the road from myself in Huntington and I'm drinking a Chukash from Rushov.
It's an 1892 beer and it's about 4.6 Brewed by the Ursus breweries company in Romania So one of my absolute favorite Romanian beers I do enjoy a tipple when I'm over in Romania There are they're very joy a tipple when you're back home as well On the road or in the office Just sitting on the road In any case, I think it's about time we open these up and get started so on three on two and on one I'm not sure if you caught that I did I need a pour as well All right, well silence, please reverence for the poor. Oh no, it's happening if you can't hear it then you never will No, no, it just sounded a bit like heavy breathing for a second apart from that Oh my goodness. I love this beer. Oh, it's so good.
Right. Well working from home. I've never won top tip. Do not drink beer But those are those serious top tip while we're doing this in kind of a lighthearted way It is important to note that you can't get too comfortable when you're working from that Absolutely.
The last thing you want to be doing is be sandwiched in the sofa at 11am watching Netflix drinking a beer whilst using your left hand to ensure that your screensaver doesn't go on It's it's not really going to be good for yourself for your mental health for your physical health or indeed for your job longevity So for many obvious reasons, I guess one from home is a very big topic at the moment and I guess I wanted to start off by talking about the benefits of working from home So why why might we want to work from home in general? Louise, hey thoughts I think one of the key ones of these a lot of people is the avoids the commute Um, I'm fairly lucky on a general day tone takes about 20 minutes drive to and from the office But for some people obviously commuting takes up a majority part of their day can be long boring commute Obviously if you're working from home, that's time you're saving whether it's getting into work earlier Starting earlier finishing earlier freeze up more time for a family for exercise and wherever it might be So it's it's sort of give you a safety and extra chunk out of the day where there's carved out time Are you can be doing something other than sitting in your car sitting on the train whatever it may be? Yeah, for sure And that is a benefit like for the individual because it means that they don't have that part of the day They've got more time But you can also think of that as a benefit for the business as well If your employees aren't having to commute in then that's what less dependency on them able to kind of access the office And be with each other How are you Chris? Have you got a chief benefit in mind?
I think just I think yeah to agree with Louise. I'm actually said it the commute is the killer So, you know, I commute for about an hour either way But when you think about it an hour doesn't seem like much But then when you add it onto an eight hour working day which sometimes is nine or 10 hours depending on the demands of the day You know, just by commuting you've actually been out of the house 12 hours And although you wouldn't necessarily look at it say I was at 12 hours at work that day It was and you know commuting is work too Um, I think the other ability working from home is that it also gives you that flexibility of life You know, if you have young children for instance, um if suddenly childcare plans blow up and you need to be at home to look after them Then actually forcing someone to take a day of annual leave for that is almost criminal and in reality It's better to actually just say to someone okay, well look you know login Make sure that you've got everything sorted in the morning for instance and then take a slightly longer lunch break So, you know be with your child and then you know work a little bit later in the afternoon because you can because you're working from home You don't have to worry about the commute. Yeah, there's uh, I guess a financial side of that as well like it's you know You might not have to be perpetual or the train fair to get in Yeah, definitely again in terms of business if you're looking at it from purely financial side Individuals are having to pay to commute in and also you'll have to pay an extra rent to host them Yeah One other thing I did want to mention is it also frees you up geographically a little bit more which is kind of nice So you can work as part of the team that's kind of globally spamming So If you're an individual that kind of frees you up to working areas you might not have access to or if you're an employer that means You've got access to individuals or working areas that you might not have access to otherwise You know there's there's like benefits to working from home Um, and so it's not too much of a surprise that we're working it's kind of grown a little bit over the past few decades Yeah, I think I think The dangers of working Okay, Chris So I was just going to say that uh, sorry Chris I just steam rolled it over you there so I was just going to say that it's quite nice because it also means that Where a company would normally dry up its pool of Employees say if they're hiring from local universities by hiring remote workers They actually get access to a whole new diverse portfolio of skills and abilities that they otherwise never would have for sure Absolutely diversity in the workplace always a good thing new ideas new perspectives on things Okay, so we just said like these are why work from home isn't such a bad thing So if you're forced to work from home at the moment, then there are some positives to take from it And if you are having to have employees who are having to work from home then again some positives to take from it though But I don't know despite all that I personally still prefer being in the office It's um, I still like the social interaction side of things Yeah, it's not always possible though, is it? No, no, absolutely.
I think ultimately it's a it's a personal decision a lot of people make when it comes to their career They happy with it. Do they have a self-discipline? Um, but yeah, I personally really like the the social side and being to annoy Chris whenever I feel the need to Don't even need to try Interesting so okay, then maybe we should get into some top tips for making sure that people are productive when they work from home I know you know much like myself. I have major issues with focus working from home and motivation So chris louise what what would you say are your top tips for say helping me adopt this new working from home mentality?
So chris i'm very glad to hear but you're being very forth right about your productive tissues. We'll talk about that more in your So yeah, you know productivity I guess is the the killer one and to me it's all about being able to curb distraction Now the ability to work from home is kind of the ability to be alone with your thoughts Which is pretty nice But then the flip side to that is that suddenly you know You might have your cat or your dog or your partner or your kids or your neighbor or the postman or the dishwasher All these things that can suddenly enter into your periphery in a way that you might not have at the office For me, it's it's all about having a dedicated space and making sure that you are in your mind Segregating the space that you're working from the space that you're not A lot of people for example might be tempted to work from bed But those are lovely it does But then there's strong argument to say that if you're working from a place that you associate sleep Then that means you're going to associate work and sleep The converse as well that you associate sleep with work, which means that you might be Less productive and it also might mean that you'll find sleeping harder, but if we use dreams about webinars anyway, then surely Well, then I mean just sounds like you should work from bed just the dream So I would recommend you know not working from the sofa in front of the tv Making sure that you've got a setup location even if it's a the end of the bed or even if it's a A specific part of the table. I know for now. I've currently got my office recreated on my dining room table Which is a bit of an unusual situation But it's just so that in my mind This is now my segregated workspace and when I'm in here I'm working and anyone else is in the house particularly my wife who is also in the same situation She has a different room that she's taken on as her workspace and we know not to disturb each other during that time Yeah, we've got a similar situation in fact actually doing all three of our partners my husband and your two wives all work at the same place Actually, yes, they did so we are all in the same situation.
Um, so yeah, Toby has recently started working from today So yeah, I've caught um because I was here first I've set up on the desk in the spare room And yeah, he is currently downstairs on the and with his stuff on the kitchen table I think you write Chris. It's one of those things that it's sort of been able to clock off at the end of day as you would work normally Close the door and say be able to put that barrier between work and life So you still try and keep that work life balance even though your work is is currently at home with you Yeah, for sure like it works both ways as well like you're curbing Distraction so that while you're in your workspace You're not going to be tempted to say do a household sure when you should be working But also going the other way making sure that when you're outside of your workspace You're not thinking about work just kind of 24 seven. Yeah, there's a great line that a friend of ours Luke he said to us which is that if your Uh, if your home becomes where you do your work, then you're going to associate work everywhere you are in your house Interesting. That's really interesting.
I think it even comes down to what you're wearing when you're working as well I personally found it quite liberating yesterday. I got this I got this tip from from Jeremiah in fact some wonderful tips from both Jeremiah and Kendra and In particular Jeremiah said that You should associate what you're wearing with with work as well So if you're going to I don't know change into a certain outfit for work don't work in your pajamas Okay Don't get out bed and work in your pajamas because it doesn't do anything for your motivation If you get up and you go through the motions like you were working get your work clothes on Go over to wherever you've set up your temporary office Workout everything that you need to do for the day and then when you're finished for the day clock out and for me yesterday clocking out men Literally dismantling everything moving the screen out of sight so that I know log had visibility of that workspace I see into a space that I otherwise associate with relaxing Yep, and uh and I changed into my huga clothes and of course we talked about huga before Uh the Danish idea of I think comfort is the closest translation But I very much have my huga clothes in the in the building so just jump into those two I want to ask what they are and partly doesn't want to know So I'm thinking I'm gonna go with my don't want to know My huga clothes are just some some jogging bottoms and baggy jogging jogging bottoms A nice comfortable t-shirt and the red gate jumper that is too big for me that I proposed in so So yeah, it's very comfortable and so like the key takeaway from that I think is that you should be doing what you would do as if you were going to go into the office Like you know if you were going into the office you wouldn't go in your pajamas. So getting up well, Louise Go ahead Yeah, well Get it get up have a shower if you have a shower in the mornings and maybe go outside and have a little walk to Synthesize your commute and then they'll put you in the right frame of work frame of mind for working And my personal experience is that the times that working from home has failed for me is the times when I've basically just Born whatever the hell I felt like it and got a shower at four o'clock in the afternoon as opposed my usual straight out of bed I think sometimes it does make sense to factor in things when you can so um this morning I was a little bit late up when I slept I was still able to do everything that I normally would I just wasn't able to have my shower But I had a meeting canceled this afternoon And so actually it really became quite pertinent that I was at home because I had this gap of 45 minutes That wasn't really enough to get started with anything new But I was able to very quickly jump in the shower jump out again and then prep for my next meeting which actually I found quite refreshing I guess it's you know, it's funny what works for you and but in general I would always favor Segregation in terms of your physical space at home and also mental segregation in terms of your you know, you know You're doing in terms of your routine as well. Yeah, absolutely Any tips from you Lou?
Um, no, I think the routine one is is key and everyone knows that that period between christmas and new year when you've got time off and You have no idea what day it is what time it is. You've got no routine and everything's completely out of all work Um, which most of you days is a nice sort of nice something to happen, but all of us drink as much as you do it It's great Um, but yeah, I think I say having that routine is is K and finding what works for you Whether it's getting up first thing in the morning going for run or doing exercise there Or maybe if some people going out lunchtime, I think it's finding your routine for yourself at work So you can still do the things that you want to do you can take advantage of the extra time you've got having to commute And what works around that your personal circumstance if you've got kids you might still have to do school run in the morning And and that kind of thing as long as the schools stay open obviously that would be something for a lot of people that if the schools do start to close Um, one of the have a big impact on people's routine and what is possible for them to work from home Um, given I say that the other is rain some people, um, but I think yeah Just finding what works for each individual and and stick into that routine as much as you can Yeah, I mean that's what your routine is on a week on a daily basis every week, right? Is that yeah Monday to Friday you do a certain routine and then Saturday and Sunday and Sunday? So if you're going to replace a routine instead of going from, you know, your house to your workplace You're going from your bedroom your living room to your makeshift office And it should be treated as such and and should have a similar routine put around it Just one that is more adaptable to it's uh to well, it's environment Absolutely So I think if I was gonna add a couple of tips as well, uh, I think it boils down to two things Um, I think the first thing is communication and the second thing is visibility Uh, it's it's really tough to manage when you're in a job role that involves collaboration So much collaboration talking to people on a near constant basis constant questions, you know, chris and I get asked probably A good hundred questions between us every single day where we are, you know constantly speaking to people within our organization answering various questions and being supportive and actually you're probably exactly the same thinking about it I mean, I'm probably asking you about 90 of those hundred questions But the thing is Yeah Chris, I can just see you wearing like affairs holding up an envelope and going Third floor marketing covered and then taking the taking the keys out But uh, no, I think it's really tough when you don't see people when you don't have those similar sorts of interactions And you've got to be aware that being distant from people physically can create friction And you need to do everything that you can to kind of smooth that friction over So top tip number one for me is everything goes in your calendar keep that calendar up to date That stuff is so important because that is well, that's the only thing that people have immediate access to to to identify whether you're free So making sure that that's open making sure you don't block it out And if you do have to block it out for personal or development purposes Make sure to leave it as free or attentive so that people know that you're still open to other things and then message people talk to people Use whatever tools you have available to you teams slack Scacks for business Yeah, that's a really great point.
Um, there's a friend of ours a mutual friend of ours He recently said to me that there's no such thing as overcommunication when everyone's got to be working from home You know having things like regular check-ins and regular ones or ones And just to make sure that people are using Oh, also using technology they have like you mentioned teams and whatever, but also just your webcam You know, we've seen so much more webcam usage over the last like oh so much Yeah, and i'm never on webcam. No one wants to see this face at 8 30 am but webcam it up I do yeah, and I think that really helps be able to see people and look people in the eye And the other point you mentioned there about how things can be so easily misconstrued When you're dealing, you know so much through text This idea that a lot of human communication is the nonverbal cues and the tone of voice and all those kinds of things You've got to always make sure that you're removing as many bad vibes to sound a bit heavy But as you possibly can from your communication and be very careful that you're not misinterpreting things and you're not letting things boil up inside you When it's so easily just to misconstrue what is a simple like slip at the time? Yeah, I think to to expand on that as well It's it's necessary to always chime in and always react as well just to extend on what you said about body language So much is lost. There's no nodding over slack, especially you know if you don't have uh if you're not in a meeting you don't have the Web cam on for instance you post an idea a thought you know feedback something like that If if you just get left on red ultimately, uh, then you know It doesn't give you that positive reinforcement that you're doing the right thing But actually what you're doing is communicating and as we know one of the key tenets of Any successful company any successful dev ops practice any successful anything is feedback feedback feedback communication and knowing that What you're doing is adding value and if someone posts something even if you have nothing to say even if you just agree with it You know a thumbs up reaction or some kind of uh some kind of enforcement Just chipping in and making sure that they they know they have been heard is just the right level of reinforcement to ensure people are still doing the right things Yeah Our team did this week in terms of comm so it's sort of taking that time out So we usually have a team lunch on a monday Um, so one of the things we did this week was we all called into a zoom call on our webcams Um and just sort of had like that half an hour catch up and sort of informal chat about what happened at the weekend or people doing And then just sort of seeing people face to face like within your normal team So you've still got some at normal comms and you're still having those sort of chats that you'd have around the office I think that's like you said one of the things that people miss the most is our social interaction And when you're in meetings about certain things like that's the time to talk about your projects this like what's going on work wise But it's also like say just having that interaction with your colleagues and catching up with people on things that aren't work related So it was actually it was really nice to see and um, yeah, literally see our team and just have a catch up as we normally were And I think it's something a lot of people found really valuable And even though it was any day one of us working from home a lot of people commented that it was great to It sort of felt like they don't waste got out on a little bit and it sort of got over there Cappin for you really a little bit so using technology for things like that for communication as well.
I think are going to be essential You have the technology there. Why not use it? That's a really nice idea like having like a virtual lunch Um, like me and Chris we our team we do like a 15 minute every day And we just talk about rubbish Just rubbish That is really good. We also we also do a we also have a slack channel like dedicated just for us to talk rubbish to each other And it's really important.
I think that we replace you know that idea of the watercolor chat What happened on that episode of whatever you were watching last night or cough car zylvania cough Exactly Okay And yeah, just avoiding cabin fever make sure you interact with people who aren't in the immediate house Yeah, I think that's why I like going out to the shop even if I only buy like a little thing You know it gives you a chance to I think going to pubs and restaurants. I understand that it can be quite Uh, you know, you're there for a long time. You use the bathroom facilities your potential tables are other people have been at glasses And you know, there's a lot of um zenars over whether or not it's actually a bit of a hazard to be there but um in terms of the You know in terms of like shops for instance as long as you're ensuring that you're washing your hands before and after you're leaving the house Not touching your face, you know these sorts of things in time of say, uh, you know the time that we find ourselves now Then actually can be really nice just going to the shop shooting the breeze with the person at the till buying some sweet potatoes for those Lovely garlic and chili sweet potato fries you're making later. Yeah.
Oh, uh, and also just generally taking a break and having a walk outside Isn't a bad idea. Yeah, we're we're recommended that we get about 10 000 steps every single day That's usually what people say is that there's a good amount and if you are in an office You usually get around about three or four thousand just by being in the office itself But if you're working from home that number tends to drop off So you've got to make sure that you replicate that and while we might be quarantined from kind of social interaction We should still be making efforts to go outside and have a wander around. Absolutely I actually have been doing this recently. So whilst I've been working from home and my wife has actually still been going into the office Uh, one thing I thought to do to introduce to my daily routine was to still take the same bus because it's a very short period of time And instead of going the whole way through and getting off at the office Getting off at the central point within my town and then just getting off the bus there I'm walking the 32 minute walk back because it replicated the commute because my commute was an hour It takes about 15 20 minutes to get the bus down into town and about 32 minutes to walk back And it's you know, it's about 1.7 miles And it was just a really good way to get the heart rate up in the morning and really kept me motivated throughout the day So it required a very short space of time on public transport But really got that walk up and it was a really nice way to socially interact with others But also to get my steps in and also a really good idea to do around lunchtime.
Yeah, I take a wander around lunch time um, obviously stay safe, but uh Yeah, just making sure that you get your steps in and have a breath of fresh air And even if you're just seeing people from uh from a distance that kind of level of human interaction is really good for your mental health It's also great if you've got a dog because obviously they need to go out three times a day anyway Yeah, for sure. Definitely not to shamelessly plug but uh obviously your lovely pupper who has got his own uh, instagram account I believe it does indeed. Yeah, I've got a small sausage dog or I believe in the u.s called wiener dogs And um, he's very small and yeah, he has his own instagram account called i think it's Frankie I should really like this should not Frankie tiny sausage dog Yeah, Frankie tiny sausage dog on instagram if you were looking at taking that five-minute break from your working from home process And you just need some lovely sausage dog in your life then naturally Frankie's the one that's way together. It is indeed Frankie I underscore tiny underscore sausage dog.
Just go home and I'll make sure I do some great uploads Wow How much walking does a sausage dog require? Well, I mean he's got very small legs like on a pain basis not a lot But you'd be surprised at the weekends. That's quite happy to do like a nine-ten mile walk every now and again Not every day, you know, you have no legs left lesson, but yeah every now and again You like so you like an extended walk usually the pupper pupper obviously that's been sort of amended these days So it's just a slightly longer walk. Wow, that's that's a long walk.
I think I would need a rest after that So Chris any uh as we're coming to a close on this special episode Are there any final top tips that you would offer to anyone listening to this special? Yeah, I guess so we've mentioned a lot of things to kind of be keep yourself productive and also I guess regular breaks to keep your mental health in check But I guess one thing that I'd like to round off on is that you know working from home should always be thought of as a marathon versus sprint mentality You know just because you can work now 16 hours a day really doesn't mean you should and while your boss might appreciate it in the short term I don't think there's a pre-shaying the long term if you burn yourself out. So making sure that you are You know managing to get in a good day's work There's always this idea that you should ask yourself at the end of the day Have you done a good day's work? And if the answer is yes, then stop Have you done work that you're going to be proud of and that you're happy to put on a virtual whiteboard and shout about?
Ultimately interesting You know, you've got a you've got to make sure that your work life balance doesn't now go flip the other way And again, this is a feedback that we got from a lot of people that we asked So shout out now to uh james to kevin to luke We specifically asked from the rec 18 because they are full-time remote workers And this is something that they all said that working from home is very intense And you've got to make sure that you have self-discipline in terms of Being productive but also self-discipline in making sure that you get the balance right for yourself as well All right. Well, two thank you for that Chris two final things that I will add then is number one Learn to use a mute button. It is ideal for those of us who sit on conference calls and listen to people Um, you know if you've got young kids at home, it's not your fault if people can hear them in the background But if you are not talking then it is your fault for not muting and i'm exactly the same I when i'm thinking about something really intensely sometimes I have the tendency to mouth breathe and Nobody wants to hear that on a conference call so be liberal with the mute button most headsets have some shortcut to Mute yourself. You can even press the spacebar if you're using zoom to unmute and remoot so definitely learn how to use that And number two is uh, definitely learn to use snooze on things like microsoft teams and slack and Um, you know any applications that you get lots of notifications from especially when you're working from home Um, I have a tendency to check slack on my phone even at like 11 o'clock at night I'll be responding to customer emails at 10 30 at night at five o'clock in the morning when I first wake up and actually That's not really great for your work life balance for your mental health as well So learn to snooze notifications most operating systems on phones for instance have a way to to do this as well Um, just find some way to either be away or to snooze notifications when you are not at work Don't be at work learn to separate that out and learn to not let the Or the get to you at times of the day when it shouldn't Loo anything from you any final kernels of wisdom.
I'm not sure about that. Um, but I think yeah, for me One of the main things is that working from home is is new for a lot of people at the moment So no one's expecting you to sort of have everything in line and like say like learning how to use your mute and snooze and snooze Yeah, um things like the backdrop So I obviously got something in the background and the sort of app you can use to um, sort of blur what's in your background or Or just make sure it's reasonably tidy, etc, especially if you're on customer calls Um, but I think for a lot of people it's a learning curve So just sort of take notes where you can like if something's not working for you reach out to other people in your organization Like what's working for them? What's not working for them? Because there's a lot of people obviously in the same boat at the moment And I think just sharing points talking to people having the opportunity to have those watercolor chats Um, as a way you can whether it's slack whether it's whatever it might be take those opportunities and learn from from other people because I say everyone's a lot of people in the same boat at the moment Absolutely brilliant.
Cool. Uh, one thing I'll say is um, you know, there's a lot of resources out there as well So while we've gone through quite a few kind of top tips, you know, this isn't stuff that we've just gleaned from our own experience We've asked those around uh red gate themselves as I mentioned and Especially with our advocates who are pretty much always remote Um, but there's a lot of blog posts and reading material out there Uh, one book that you see recommend the time and time again is uh, the guys from 37 signals who write the book remote Uh, so if you want to learn more, that's probably a good place to go. It's quite a small short read and a lot of curls was done So, thank you very much chris and uh, thank you both chris and always as well for joining us here today as well It's been absolutely brilliant, um on this 19.5 special edition of dbl now naturally anyone who knows us knows that normally there is a News section to dbl, but actually we're just going to take this opportunity to say stay safe Hope everything obviously goes well Make sure you're being as productive as you can be but put yourself first at the end of the day Nothing that you do at work can ever replace who you are as a person and your own mental and physical well-being So say as safe as possible follow all of the health advice that you have access to and from those of us at dbl from Myself from chris from louise. Uh, we just hope that everything continues going Well for you and if you have any thoughts or questions for us, of course naturally you can contact us the usual ways Uh that includes twitter as well.
So at plant-based sequel for myself at uh cuz well chris for chris and lu do you have a twitter? I don't actually know but you can it also email red dbo at red hyphen gate to dot com and it will be picked up by the wheeze so Chris any final fun words of wisdom from yourself I've already had a final words of wisdom. How many more fun words you want like talk about ergonomics if you like Or showing overlap and availability of resources Now we appear all day. Can you speak about something that involves the word synergy?
No, okay. Well in that case, it's goodbye from me. It's goodbye from mr. Chris kerswell Goodbye and it's indeed it's goodbye from louise.
So thanks very much everyone for joining us We look forward to seeing you for dbl 20 coming up hopefully next week, but for now stay safe and we will see you soon Cheers