De Palma-Rama: The Untouchables (1987)

Quick question, when was the last time a display ad changed your mind? Now think about the last time a friend told you about something they loved. Different feeling right? That's how podcast advertising works.

A host who's built a real trust with their audience talks about your brand and their own words and their own voice. It doesn't interrupt the experience. It's part of it. With Acast, you can access the world's largest podcast marketplace.

Choose the right shows, the right audiences, the right format. Then watch the data to tell you it worked. You're not buying impressions. You're buying influence.

Learn more by visiting acast.com slash advertise. Boofy brooch. Hello and welcome to episode five of movie brat bros, Japama Rama, where we are looking at the films of the one take wonder, the split die up to dude Brian de Palma. On this episode, we are looking at the 1987 movie The Untouchables.

And I had the absolute pleasure of being joined by Rich Nelson, the former host, sad to hear of the Betamax video club, but the current co-host of the Do You Want Me? podcast, which is a fantastic podcast, which looks at the relationships in movies, whether that is romantic, platonic, or anything in between. This was a lot of fun to record. It's been sitting in the bank for a while, kind of a little bit busy with the podcast.

And yeah, this one kind of got neglected. That's nothing to the quality of this chat. It was an absolute spanker of a chat. If this is your first time listening, if you've kind of joined the Patreon because you're a fan of riches and you wanted to check out because of this and what he had to say about The Untouchables, yeah, what we do here is we look at the films of Brian de Palma and see how they chalk up against the films of Francis Ford Coppola at the time.

And obviously season by season will be working through all the movie brats and all of those. So yeah, it's a lot of fun. But let's get down to it. Yeah, joining me in the split-dart of this week, as I said, is Rich Nelson.

So enjoy my chat and let's get movie-briting with the bros. I grew up in a tough neighborhood. Sometimes reputation follows you. Robert De Niro is Al Capone.

There is violence in Chicago, of course. And not by me, not by anybody I employ and I tell you why, because it's no good business. Kevin Costner is Elliot Ness. I've sworn to put this man away with any and only means it might dispose on him with this one.

Sean Connery is Jimmy Malone. When you get Capone, you'll show me you got him. He pulls a knife. He pulls a gun.

He sends one of yours to the hospital. He's in my ass. We just joined the treasury department, so everybody knows what the bullshits. The problem is we're finding it.

The problem is who wants to cross the ground. Somebody messes with me? I'm gonna mess with him. You got it, Badger?

Yes. Kevin, you're done. Your fellows are untouchable. Is that the thing no one can get to you?

Hey, everybody can be gotten to. Alright then. Right into the space. Anything happens?

You shoot first, you understand me? I'll tell you one more thing. You got it on our price fight, you wait till the fight's over, one guy's left standing and that's how you know what one. Just tell me how you've been careful.

Careful is mine. I want to hurt you man Malone. I want to start taking the battle to him. I want to hurt Capone.

Yeah, this man can finger Al Capone. This man can put Capone behind the wall. What's the matter? Can't you talk with Al Capone?

Enough to prove the methods. Yeah? Where you're not from Chicago? I want you to find the stands you boy, all these guys.

I want him dead. I want his family dead. I want you to find the stands you boy. Paramount Pictures presents a Brian De Palma film.

I first won myself. I have broken every lie, sworn in the film. I have become what I've held and I am content that I have done right. You got nothing.

Nothing. You want me to do it now? Never stop fighting the brightest gun. The untouchables.

On this episode, I'm getting the best men together to take down Brian De Palma. Look at his 1987 prohibition era crime film, The Untouchables. The man that is joining me today is the gym alone to my alien nest, Rich Nelson, of both the Betamax Video Club and do you want me podcast? How are you doing today, Rich?

I'm very well thank you for signing me up to this elite squad. I feel like I've been called up from the academy. So you'll treat to be taken on Capone. I mean, I'm in department because I can take Capone.

Yeah. Yeah. I think I maybe share some similarities. The part of my kind of is another heavy set boarding man who kind of, I don't know, I'd have a bit of a temper on him if things don't go his own way.

I'm not sure. I can't really speak to that. He's an interesting guy. All the thing.

Yes. I say regular listeners will know his history with all the other brat bros. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. It's a really fascinating and I always loved that story that it was him who wrote the the crawl that Star Wars, because he said to George Lucas, like, he needs something at the beginning. There's like kind of there's, you're missing something or he had a crawl and he's like, this makes no fucking sense, George. Let me have a stab at it.

And yeah, I like that these stories back and forth, I think like George Lucas suggested something commission impossible. And like, I don't know, I think this film is one that very much seems like it could be directed by other members of the movie, Bratz, but I'm sure we'll get into that a bit later. Something I've kind of put opinion definitely to kind of discuss later on in the chat. But before we get into this film, Rich, what was your introduction to Brian Department as a director?

I'm going to be honest, I think it was this. I think around the time when I was getting into films properly in my teenage years in the 90s, and this was one of the ones I kind of thought, I saw myself as this kind of film, not buff or anything, but you kind of getting into serious films and things like the Godfather and Scarface and all that kind of. And you're sitting there thinking, this was the one that kind of jumped out of me a little bit. It was, I think that the style of it, the fact it was slightly more modern and admittedly had the Sean Connery in it, which to a young James Bond fan was always a nice cross appeal.

Yeah, I mean, this was the one that kind of starts me. And then I think not long afterwards when Mission Impossible came out and in the subsequent years, it's seen that several times. But yeah, I think this one is, I'd go along with this. I mean, I've probably seen it a lot more than Scarface or Mission Impossible or Possibly Carry, but this is probably the first and definitely my favourite.

Is there other like department films that you've lived your toe further into the Department of Backcat and Logger Talkers? Obviously this film somewhat is a departure and kind of like almost like an outlier in his career in some way. I haven't as a kind of rule. I think I've enjoyed a lot of the films that he's done, you know, this and Carlito's way as well.

But then I think Mission Impossible, because of the kind of subject material, is kind of maybe the one of the more accessible ones. And it's on, it's probably on TV more. And I didn't really kind of get into it as much as I feel like I could have done or should have done. And when you go through his very long CV, there's such a lot on there that people talk about as being this big kind of, oh, you haven't seen that.

Oh my God, what are you talking? Call yourself film to it. No, I don't. But it's, it's kind of such a fascinating CV.

And when, you know, from your podcast and from reading other things when you see about the, the group and as we talked about, when we talked about the conversation, you know, the, the influence that this group of guys had on each other as that kind of, say, measuring of each other's genitalia, but they're very much pushing each other on. And, you know, the Palmer sometimes doesn't get mentioned in the same sphere because when you're up against Lucas and Coppola and people like that, of course, you know, third or fourth in that group is still third or fourth, but then compared to Ava's, you know, it's, it's quite a stellar run. He did. And I always love going back and the ones I do have favorites and I probably should broaden somewhat.

Well, what I found about something you said with my mission in possible is what I found from like looking at Brian DeParmis Films is rewatching that film through the lens of it being Brian DeParmis film. And like, because I think I grew up like knowing it as like a Tom Cruise vehicle. And like, I think even, even like getting onto the untouchables, I kind of saw it as like, I don't know, yeah, like a Kevin Costner and Sean Connery film. And it was interesting on this rewatch kind of looking at it very much through that Brian DeParmis lens of how like, what are the, what are the, the Palmerisms of the film?

You know, I mean, especially like piecing it all together from stuff that he's done before and kind of, there's, yeah, there's these ongoing tropes throughout throughout a Brian DeParmis film. And yeah, do you, from the DeParmis films you've seen, have you, have you picked up on any tropes like what do you think of when you think of Brian DeParmis? I mean, it's difficult to compare them because the styles and the way like when we're talking about the untouchables, it feels like he's made a film from a comic book. I mean, it's easy to kind of think about they've made a film without Al Capone.

So it's like a gritty documentary style or something like that, whereas this, it has so much, and I hate the term style over substance because there is so much substance behind this film. And it's so, the style of it is so distinct with the, the score and with the costumes and the fact it's tailored by Georgia Armani and everything like that. And it seems like it's like a homage to old styles of serial storytelling in the way that say Star Wars was. But you know, there's a lot when you look at how the music is quite heavily influenced, perhaps more so in like Scarface, for example, where the score there is quite not overbearing, but it's very there.

It's not particularly subtle. And here as well, I mean, it's fantastic. You've got that Morriconi music going on and it's really leading you along and taking me with it. I mean, it's hard to say a trope as such, but I think that there is a lot here that works, I think it is quite a close relation to Scarface in the style.

And the fact that it is quite larger than life, it's, you know, when you go to Mission Impossible and you compare it to what came afterwards, and I think they, that franchise seemed to lurch a little bit from the beginning, you know, you've gone from Brian DeParm in the first film to John Wu for the second, which is, you know, talk about your departures there. But I think, you know, and the first mission of the film, people go back and look at it as this kind of pure spy thriller. And there was, and there was, and it was very little of that kind of bombastic, very outgoing stuff. I mean, of course, Tom Cruise was still running a lot and he still had the great set pieces and the stunts, but, you know, boil it down to a lot of espionage stuff.

There was a lot of really sort of tight scenes in there, whereas in the others, they've gone away from that. And I think, you know, that isn't really here. You've got good police work, but a lot of it is fictionalized, a lot of it is dramatized and, you know, and you're hinging a lot on some of the really, really great performances in the film. I think like with that first mission in possible film, like those elements you're talking about are kind of from the Department Playbook, because it very much focuses on like, boyeurism and the choices of camera angles, like POV shots.

And the department's kind of known for split diopter shots. And this one's got like an absolute like humdinger of one when you get Kevin Costner in the foreground and Sean Conner in the background when they're talking in the church, like quite early on in the film. And it's like, you say, you saying about style over substance, I guess that's something that can sometimes be leveled at Brian Department. But like, I think it's one of his saving graces as well, because sometimes like having that style, whether it's, yeah, whether it's the split diopter shot there in the kind of low angle he uses, or when they celebrate their dinner, they'll have their celebratory dinner and he's like spins the camera around them, which other directors would just like fix the camera in a place or kind of like do some germane lights or one, two shots through the characters and stuff like that and close up.

So it's like, let's take something that could be quite boring or like, yeah, let's take something like exposition and make it a bit more like, just really amp up the style. Let's let's georgio and money suit this the way this film looks somewhat. Yeah, and in that shot in particularly, you know, you're framing a dinner which becomes something that he looks back on later as a cherished memory. So the fact that he's made that stylist, this isn't just a throwaway Polaroid.

This is something that means something to him when the job is done, when he's packing all his bits away. And you know, you see them all together, you know, this is a team that's the Untouchables, it's the 1930s, 80s, or whatever. But it's, there has to be that. And I think there is a huge part of why the film is so popular, is because of the way it looks and the way it is presented.

I mean, it's telling a story that a lot of people kind of know roughly it's all about Al Capone, how they got him into prison, but you know, a lot of this stuff didn't happen. A lot of it's, you know, very heavily made up. And they don't make any kind of claims to the otherwise. This is just, you know how we got there, but we're going to make this a story that you want to watch, the people that you care about.

So no shame. There's no, there's like, they're happy to lean on the like the scandalous as opposed to like, there's no title card at the beginning of this. This is based on a true story. It's like, from reading, it's like, you know, some of these, you know, these people are real, you know, Al Capone existed, and it's existed.

But yeah, we're telling you a fantasy of what, like, what could have happened? Do you know what I mean? If real life were a film. So yeah, before we get too deep into talking about the film, can you give us a synopsis of what the Untouchables is all about, Rich?

So essentially it's the story about prohibition in the US in 1930, or as we were getting to to 1930 and Al Capone, everyone knows, Elliot Ness is brought in from the Treasury Department as the kind of, I don't know, it's like a czar they call it these days, where he's like a specialist, they bring in to how do you bring a prosecution? How do you get all this? You're aiming at one particular guy like a task force, if you're using modern parlance. And he quickly realizes that the Chicago police at that time is heavily corrupt, as a lot of policing in film and TV is, and quickly realizes that he needs a very small group of officers to help him out.

And there's a lot in this of chance. He suddenly realizes that he hits upon Jim Malone, this very old, died-in-the-wool Irish cop, as his kind of, I know his conscience, he's like his Jiminy Cricket going through, he finds this guy and suddenly identifies as like, this is the kind of person I want to base my group around. What he even says to, I think he even, yeah, he even says to Jim, I'm like, what are you my mentor? And he's like, what do you say?

Like, he's like, the film isn't, isn't shy about what it's doing with these characters and the kind of like, like you're saying, like, there's no fat on it, I find, I mean, it's two hours long. And there's kind of, it just whistles through, and it's kind of, I don't know, it's a real flex on Brian De Palma's part that like, he kind of ends this film on a free just killer set piece, it's like, have this, have this, have this, and it's yeah, it's a, it's a real, it's a real like, you want a big blockbuster? Well, here you go, let's have one. Oh, yeah, let me rattle off some stats about this film and then we'll get into some of our favorite scenes and some questions I've prepared.

So this was released on the third of June 1987 in the US with a September 18th release of the same year in the UK. The film starts, Kevin Costner, as Elliot Ness, Sean Connery as Jim Malone, Robert De Niro as Al Capone, and Andy Garcia as George, well, it's surname written down, what? George Stone. Oh, par, but yeah, yeah, we've got we've got interesting cast, George Stone is the name of that character.

Oh, we've got an interesting cast character. The budget for this film was 25 million and made 106.2 million dollars. So did pretty well for itself. So, rich, yeah, what, like, is there some scenes early on in this film that you'd like to discuss?

Like, yeah, let's jump off and let's talk about how this film opens and some of the interesting stuff that happens at the start. I mean, the opening scene itself, where you're introduced to Al Capone, he's been shaved and he's giving this kind of briefing to the press, talking about how great he is and how he grew up and how he got into the business. And it's Robert De Niro in strange that this role doesn't often get mentioned as as he's great, even though he is great in it. I think that says a lot about him really.

I think when people talk about how he put on weight to play Jake Lamotta in Raging Bull, they always went, reference that was here. He's bigger. He's really got himself into the character. But he's still menacing.

We know we still know him from this with pretty good fellows, of course, but then he was Vito Corleone in the days as well. So he plays Al Capone in this really menacing way that he's quite believable, even when he is, you know, it's Robert De Niro. You can't escape that fact. But he's the way he's waving his finger around at the barber while shaving him for nicking him and doing it.

And you're expecting, oh, it's Al Capone. He's going to get up and cut his throat. And he probably did off camera. But you see this and he's holding court.

And this is the boss. This is the guy that everyone knows. You know, we're talking 90 or 20 years later in the UK. Everyone knows who Al Capone is.

And he is the big villain. He's the Darth Vader of the piece. He talked about Star Wars and was like their Linktons on one. But it cuts from him to a little girl being blown up in a bomb.

I mean, just to really get how villainous this guy is and how serious the organized crime industry was at the time. And it really gets you right at the beginning. There's no slow build up. You know, this is talking three or four minutes into the film.

And it gets you because it's so heartless. It's so violent. This is introducing you to a very, very violent film. And yes, there's some light moments and some gentle comedy.

This is a violent film. And you are introduced to that from the off. And it's really powerful. I'd like just like the way this film opens with the title credits.

I'm sort of playing a little bit of the music. I'm going to play a little bit of the music. I'm going to shut down with it. So it just grabs you by the throat.

Yeah, here's the opening. Er, any amoracone track corner. These strength of righteous kind of really sets the tone right rich of kind of like you're almost watching this like 1930s somewhat pastiche in a way, right? I'm like, I don't know.

It's got those interesting like melodic a bit. It's like that. Yeah, it feels like a Hollywood, like you said earlier, like a kind of serialized take on that era. Yeah, I guess this is a strange when you look at time shifting and then there's a lot of nostalgia there for people who grew up not necessarily during that time, but around the time and would have heard these stories and and seen things on the TV and heard the stories on the radio.

And a lot of those influencers would have built into, you know, in the mid 80s at this point. So you're seeing all that building and it is very much, you know, we're somewhat colored by it. But you think this is what people will have thought about when they thought about 30s organized crime starts the cops and the robbers kind of thing. And when you've got Morricone, who's everyone knows for a lot of the work he did around, especially around the good, the bad, and the ugly, but this is so iconic in the same way, but it just fits, you know, this, this, it tells the story.

You know, when those credits roll, they are, this isn't like, they're not introducing the cast as kind of the almost like the end of a British sitcom, like the end of Predator, but they're sitting there, they're looming letters the way it's building up, you're seeing all these names that you recognize, and this music is just playing there. And as it goes for the whole film, it just assists with telling the story. You don't need the visuals as much because it's an assault on your avocences as well. And I think, you know, as a kind of, when you wonder where ever films would have gone, if they'd taken ever turns, but this was a perfect one in keeping with the tone of the film.

And that kind of rose tinted view on how things were, and looking back because we know that it would have been very different. But this is telling a passion of story and that kind of not feel good. But you know, it's like if something good happened to the weekend, you go into work on Monday morning and embellish somewhat, and you'd have that score running through the tail is you're telling people at work. There's somewhat of an element of this being like an action adventure film as well.

I think it's kind of the score very much plays into that, but especially as a sequence when they're kind of going for that drug bust on the border. And it's like, I think this music could almost fit in like an Indiana Jones film somewhat. I mean, like to kind of mention another movie, perhaps film. It's like, and it's, I don't know, it somewhat feels like he's kind of going, it's cool what Stephen's doing with that franchise.

Like, I'll take a bit of that flavor and add it into what I'm doing, which could have, I guess, knowing, yeah, no brand apartments films could have gone so many different ways. Like, this could have been a really serious, like, thriller and done in like a homage to Nwah's almost like really, really, like kind of takes the the noir and the time period and kind of goes, let's just put some like sparkles and color into it and like bombast, right? It's like really, I don't know, I find it massively that the whole film from the score to the performance is to like the visuals, it's just quite a bombastic film. Yeah, I think if, you know, that there are, there's enough mileage in the Al Capone, the Alien-esque, the prohibition angle to go off and do it in all those other ways.

And of course, over the years people have. But this is memorable because it isn't that, it's because it's larger than life. There are characters in there that you, you remember because they are big, it's De Niro and Connery run away, they chew the scenery when they're on the film. And I think that you need that.

And I think when you're telling a story about true life and what happened, you know, it's important that the truth is out there and that people tell those stories, but you also need to have that little bit of romance and that little bit of creative license to do what they've done with this, because like you say, there's no title card saying this is based on the true story. The people are there, but that's about it. Yes, I have it in Chicago, if we're being honest, but yeah, I mean, if everything was a documentary, life would be boring. Yes, exactly.

Yeah, yeah, this is very much like you can grab some beers and a pizza on a Saturday night and like stick this on with a group of mates and have fun with it, right? Oh, I'll circle back to Robert De Niro and his performance, but before we get to that, I just wanted to talk about Kevin Costner in that central role as L.I.T.S. which I think is really interesting that initially De Parma wanted Don Johnson and after that, Mickey Rourke, to play the role of L.I.T.S. like, it's one of those things, I guess it's in hindsight, but like, I think Costner is perfect for this role of like a kind of goody two-shoes cop who's kind of like, he's obviously tested and does like, when we get to the end of the film, it's definitely done something that quite is to murder, I guess, like, yeah, murder, right?

When he pushes that guy off the building? Yeah, definitely. I think that's the thing as well when you transport yourself back to that time and you look at Don Johnson in 1987 was my advice and to translate him into this role where Elliot Ness is being portrayed in that way that he is supposed to be holier than now and very by the book and of course, over the course of the film, that does change because it's a film that happens. But I think if you'd put Don Johnson in from the beginning, I'm trying to imagine the audience would have had to suspend their disbelief somewhat that he doesn't roll up the sleeves of his suit before he goes into battle or anything like that.

So I think Costner and has gone on to portraying in other roles that kind of quantity that you see here. But I think when you do read about Elliot Ness and that he wasn't this holier than now, person who was all righteous and all good. But for this version of reality, he was then, I think, Costner was great. Yeah, I think that the untouchable is very much like Costner's before, but Costner's performance in this is very much like a blueprint in playing Jim Garrison in JFK as well a few years later.

Yeah, definitely. So, yeah, let's talk about Robert De Niro, who, like for my money, doesn't like if you really boil it down, maybe gets like 15, 20 minutes of screen time, if that, right? Yeah, I think when you kind of look at the way the film is structured, he's there, he's this looming presence. And I suppose when you look at the poster for the film, he is in the background overseeing that kind of, I'm going to say again, Darth Vader, but he's like that, he's looming in the background, he's omnipresent, he's everything to do with this, he's got his tentacles everywhere.

But when he's on, and I think kind of because he's playing Al Capone as a, almost like a Batman villain, a bit like a, that I think you can't overdo it. And I think you have to keep it and say diluted, but you can only have it in small bursts, otherwise it becomes the Al Capone movie and not the Elliot Ness film. And I think it's one of those things that if he was in it for too much, and if they had too much interaction, it would kind of spoil what you get, and it would disrupt the balance, I think. I think it's very much similar, because obviously with the Batman out now, everyone's talking about Colin Farrell very much looking like a kind of weightier Robert De Niro and his kind of performance is very much like from the De Niro playbook and very much like, from this film, I would say, he's kind of like, his version of the Penguin is very much doing like an Al Capone, like Kingpin style, like, ah, I like Joe Meing, like, I'll get you, I'll get you, you know, your arms.

Like, whereas like, nothing, nothing like Danny DeVito is kind of patrolling the film. I think like, I've only really interested as well again, just talking about casting what is, and there's an amazing story around this, but Bob Hoskins was basically offered the role, and then for whatever reason, De Niro managed to, to know, got out of a job he was working on, took the role and the Palmer mailed Hoskins a check for his contract for he had $20,000, the note that said thank you, and Hoskins contacted him and said, well, if there's any other time you want me to be any movie, if any time, like, you want me for a movie, you don't want me to be in, and still get paid, I'm more than happy to do it. I think that's, I mean, again, Hoskins at the time would have been coming off, I think Mona Lisa would have been the year before this, so, you know, he would have been great in it, but I think, I don't know, maybe for that, like, more authenticity, and I think Hoskins then went on to do Roger Rabbit, I think, I think, I mean, it was capable of such things and would have been very good in the role, but I think, yeah, De Niro here, you do struggle to kind of see this kind of portrayal of Capone, I think De Niro at the time was perfect for it, I mean, he was still, you know, he was doing a very eclectic runner films at the time in the 80s, you know, he did this and then went on to do, I mean, Midnight Run a year later, so I think it was good, and I, again, not that I'm gonna go back and change any of this film, but I certainly wouldn't change that, I mean, Hoskins was great, and but yeah, De Niro in this was, I mean, fantastic, but there was that menace there that I think, especially with the baseball that scene, that was, you know, peak De Niro and I think going into, you know, a lot of what he did afterwards before he did the Rocky and Bullwinkle, but we'll leave that there. Well, yeah, what I find interesting about that as well, as you said about that baseball bat scene, that was something that was emitted in the Belgian release of the film when they kind of like, that's released it, they're like, oh, it's too violent, and I can tell that point, you haven't really sinned the violence of how Capone is obviously mentioned by the untouchables, and you get a sense of it in that opening, there's that kind of sense of fret about him, but obviously, I don't know, it plays with the audience a bit, like it kind of puts you on the back foot somewhat by like, Al Capone's trying to deceive people that he is this kind of, just to help her to the people, right, he kind of said something to the degree of like, nobody in my organisation, like, has ever hurt anyone and stuff like that, but they've also said it's like, in my neighbourhood growing up, like, it was all the same, they were like, if you, if you want someone to help you, it's always best to ask for help with a gun and stuff like that.

Yeah, I think, I think, I think De Niro is, yeah, like you said, he's perfectly cast on this film, I think, Hoskins, I don't know, he's great, but like, it's that thing, isn't it, hindsight, you can't see it any other way. So let's talk about the, like, yeah, the, the team and the way that this film kind of assembles them, like, what do you think of those kind of scenes when, well, that first scene between Jim and Elliot Ness on the bridge and that kind of, I don't know, the way that they kind of come together and then, obviously, the ball really gets rolling once Jim decides to join the team. I mean, it is, I suppose in many other kinds of films, like, a Meat Cute, isn't it, where they, they just happen to meet by chance on this bridge, fate has brought them together in the way that they have and had they not met, it would have gone, that it may not have worked out, it may have gone in a very different direction, but the fact that Connery at this point has very much embraced that older, and he'd been doing it for a long time, but people were still looking at him as James Bond, and he had embraced this kind of elder statesman role, and a lot more, and that he was able to impart this old style, and we're talking old style in 1930 here, this practice, this outlook on life and policing and law enforcement onto Elliot Ness, who was this kind of young upstart in fantastic tailoring, quite frankly. I mean, it's the way that it happens, yes, it's random, yes, it obviously didn't happen in real life, but it works for the film because it brings them together and it shows this principled man who is willing to bend the rules, and as we find it that scene with the bookkeeper in the Lodge by Canada, you can have so many principles, but sometimes you're the bigger fish lie ahead, but the relationship between the two of them, it was fantastic, and when you mentioned Indiana Jones earlier, we see a couple of years after this, when Sean Connery then became the dad to Harrison Ford in Indiana Jones, and there was a lot of that in there, the kind of young handsome American guy being not mental, because he literally was the father figure through Indiana Jones, but the way that worked out, this was a very nice little kind of an appetizer for that as well, especially that scene with the horses.

Yeah, there's a great dynamic between those two actors, and it's always great to see Sean Connery having a lot of fun in the film, and obviously its final film was the League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, which for more reports say he had no fun making, but this film looks like he had fun with the character, one of the things I noticed when watching it again, it's just how many great whips he has, everything he says is great little turns of phrases, every says like, I wish I'd have met you 10 years ago and 20 pounds ago, I totally bought it on a Sean Connery accent because it got a bit bar out there, can you do a Sean Connery accent at the top of it? Not without getting myself cancelled, despite having significant Scottish heritage, I think unless you start adding H is the end of words and saying like 10ish, but then it's, he has, and of course he won his Oscar for this film, and he had some of the really great quotes, and I remember when in the 90s I think I got a PC for the first time and had that in Carter in Such A Peadio on a CD-ROM and it had these kind of movie clips, and back before you know, about the closest you can get the video on demand then, and it had like the, you're going to need a big vote from Jaws, and I'll be back from Terminator, and it also had the line in here about, they pull a knife, people a gun, and that was on there, and that's how big it was, because this, I mean for him, he was there and being able to look fantastic, dressed in his lovely hats, things like that, which of course the Irish cops then take a piss out of him for later on, but you know, he's enjoying this kind of later lease of life as an old style Western sheriff of sorts, but yeah, really chewing up, and I know people get sick about the accent, I mean they do it in all his films, I mean he's supposed to be, I think Egyptian in Highlander and still speaks the same, he is a very Scottish Irishman, but ultimately it was a great performance, he totally deserved the Oscar, and I mean it's a nice touch for yourself, that I think it was Nicholas Cajun's share who presented him with, said, Satsuet. Yes, yes, yes, I've shared that clip before online, it's, I absolutely love that clip, not just because of John Connery's speech, but share and Nicholas Cajun's raw sexual energy, like they have, as well, they just kind of, they look like they've just walked off the set of moonshructures straight onto that stage, and it's kind of like they're flirting with each other, and they're being playful and stuff like that, yeah, oh yeah, I love that, it's probably going to be flipped up, but in right here, he's mentioning the Oscars, what I find fascinating, especially like with, with very much the French in the current Oscars, and there's a lot of like debate, like you mentioned, yeah, film Twitter, and stuff like that, but kind of people like saying that, yeah, just film fans saying like popcorn fair doesn't really get appreciated at the Oscars, and I would say that like, this is very much like a kind of popcorn blockbuster, right? Like this is very much like, this isn't, this isn't a worthy chin scratcher, is it?

It's very much like a kind of playing to the cheap seat, it's kind of film. Yeah, I mean, you've got huge at the time, Hollywood names, and up and coming ones as well, you've got a director who's made huge films already, and you've got ingredients that make it memorable, you know, we've already talked about Morricone and, you know, the look of it, the style of it, and it's strange when you think about where we are with films now, and that there are either, and I'm oversimplifying massively here, but you seem to have either franchisees or said chin scratchers, and you don't have a much of a middle ground, and you've seen now the untouchables would probably be a Netflix six or eight-part series as opposed to a film, probably to fill that gap because you might not see it otherwise, but then, you know, you look back at those films that won big at the Oscars, and of course, you know, I mean, this one got the best supporting actor, but still it's, you're in a time when, again, we've not sounded, but looking and thinking, God, I love that film, wow, you know, and yeah, some of them were the kind of more thought-provoking, slower ones that aren't your average Saturday night fair, but I think if you look at the ingredients of this one, I think, yeah, there is perhaps a bit of snobbery around it because it's guns and violence, and you know, this isn't exactly a film that promotes equality in many ways, and some of the language Connery used towards Andy Garcia in their relationship was that, yes, he's with us. He speaks in like Jack Waltz speaks about Italians in the Godfather, I mean, he's like calling them like a dago, like, you know, like, you go, giddy whaps, like, you might as well be saying all of that kind of stuff, like, really, really despairing about it. Well, yeah, like, there's a couple of scenes I wanted to dive into, which I guess one of the, like, great set pieces in this is that first, like, bust they do on the, on the border, and like, you get to see the team kind of, you've already, well, you've already seen them kind of like, bust into the post office, but that's very, like, the small scene.

This is a lot more kind of, there's a lot more build up to it, we get to see the dynamics of the team. What do you think of the team and obviously, yeah, you've got Oscar there as well, and you've got George Stone as played by Ali Garcia. What do you think of that scene, what do you think of the kind of the team that they've assembled in those performances? I think the team is exactly what you would write if you were writing a Hollywood movie team.

You've got people of different backgrounds, you've got Oscar who's, I guess, the geek, the nerd who's looking at the figures, and he's the one who keeps suggesting about components, tax evasion and things like that. And you've got, sorry, Andy Garcia is the hot shot rogue, hot blooded Italian who had to fake his name to get into the academy, and then you've got Elliot and Malone as well. And it is this kind of, you've got to have the opposite to track, because there were four of them, but they all have very different personalities and strengths and weaknesses that coming together, they bounce off each other so well. And it is fun to see where a lot of them went on.

I mean, of course, Andy Garcia, he talked about in the God Father Part 3, and but here he was that kind of really rash, but he looked like a young cop who goes on to good things. He's keen to learn from, especially Malone, they have this, you know, we've already talked about mentoring with Elliot Nes, but there is a kind of respect there, and he takes on a lot of that, especially towards the end, and the end scene where Elliot gives George the, his whistle of his watch account, and it's kind of key. That was a hand-off key, that was it. Yeah, yeah.

That was a hand-off key, yeah. And you know, that's a significant momento because of the respect that they had. And I think as a team, it was great because, you know, they are like the 18. They are four very different people, and I think the dynamics between them work so well that I think it carries it off.

And I think if you've got a four-way team like that, it's only as strong as its weakest part, but they all play well together in Oscar. Yes, he's the geek, he's the one, and he has his moment with a shotgun where he drinks the whiskey out the barrels, and has his, you know, his triumph as well. So it's nice to see. And again, when you see the black and white picture at the end, that's that kind of how great they were, and having their dinner, and it was, you know, it was a nice scene to have, and they did work well together, and ultimately, in the end, going to this film, that's how Al Capone got caught.

Well, yeah, that, you say about that portrayal of Oscar by Charles Martin Smith. I think like, he's great because he gets to be the comic relief somewhat, whether it is that kind of segue drinking the booze, or one of the things I kind of know it is how like kind of rapidly horny, he seems to be as well. He's always like, passing comment, he's like, oh yeah, maybe it is better to be out of the field after like he sees a woman and stuff like that. And it's, I think all of them perfectly in the kind of conventions of a film like those architects well, but they're interesting, and you kind of know the film doesn't really mess about in kind of, you don't need the back story with them.

You kind of, you get it in their performances, you get it like very quick in that David Mamett script of just like, when it's introduced to Oscar, like you get like, I've got this guy's card marked, I know exactly, you get the same with Jim Malone, and you kind of like, you get the same with George Stone as well, where it's like kind of, there's an element of like a bit of a hot head in there, but like when kind of push on it, he will very much have the team's back, and like despite the kind of like, yeah, because I think it's when is it Malone kind of like, in front of him and he pulls like an iPhone, it kind of speaks back to it, like that's the respect, like he gains that respect, like in front of me, I'll fuck with you more, like kind of thing. Yeah, he pulled the cost on him when they first met at the academy and George has a little revolver up and up against his throat within seconds, you know, and again, they've picked this guy out, not for any quality of an investigator or an enforcer, he is a great shot, and of course, further down the line, that becomes incredibly important, but you know, that's why he's on the team and yet he brings a very important role and you do wonder what he goes on to in the Untouchables too, but yeah, that was a great team, I think, and you know, the fact that the film is about them, they are the Untouchables and you know, I think they got that perfectly right, and I think if you had, you know, Oscar being played by someone who would have been a much higher profile person at the time, again, you're losing that balance then between Elliot and Malone, and I think that's what you need, you still, even within a team before, you still usually have two who kind of carry it a little bit more and have that emotional weight, and I think that's what we have, so you know, if he is as a force, they work really well. I think having those bigger names as well, you always think like, oh, they're not going to kill off, like they're not going to kill off all of these guys, I mean, like there's obviously big checks going on, like obviously John Connery wanted that Oscar, so he's like, give me a death scene, on a death scene, like that's going to back be that Oscar, the nomination and win. Yeah, we get that scene where like Oscar's killed in the elevator, which, again, like, oh, it gives us like some real, there's a, I don't know, it's the real deparborisms in the fact of like the way that the camera is like focused on the elevator and then kind of swings around down the corridor, and it's like a really impressive like one shot because it's like we hustling and bustling, and then we see like Elliot and S and Jim Malone turn around the corner, and the camera follows them and like kind of it's almost like, well, yeah, in real time, we're with them as they realize like, oh shit, something about to go down.

What do you make of that sequence and like kind of, I don't know, I imagine you've seen it a lot of times like does it still pack a punch of like, I don't know, tension ramping? It does because I think at that point, the untouchables are kind of on the front foot, and they've got the bookkeeper or the original bookkeeper going to call, and this is where they kind of have to be reminded that that the threat is still there and Billy Drago is just a A-list bastard, isn't he? He's just this menacing evil guy in all these films he plays in. He just looks like a villain, like something out of a Roman Empire, he's that kind of lurking assassin, and that scene where Malone and Ness are virtually patting themselves on the back of a job well done that they're on the road, and you know, this is where it happens because there's still the corruption in the police, there's still where this is allowed to happen, and it does need, I guess at some point, they need to have some tragedy and some loss to kind of bring it back down to Earth a little bit, it is painful because yes, we see Malone's death scene further down the line, but this is more of a tense thing because we kind of get the suspicion that something bad's going to happen because we're what two-thirds of the way through the film, it's not going to wrap up that nicely, but it's difficult because he's had his moment with the shotgun and the whiskey and he feels like an integral part of the team, and then this happens and he's done by perhaps a bastard.

Yeah, and it's obviously his idea that was the kind of like, I mean, he set up the kind of check-offs tax evasion that eventually got our components, well, it's like obviously knowing what happened in real life, like the moment he mentions like, hey, I've noticed he hasn't paid any tax, like it's like, okay, I mean, it's like a kind of chubby home, like kind of moment, like in the film where it's like, okay, yeah, I get what you're doing, and I kind of, I like this, it kind of plays to that, like, I don't know, popcorn movie, kind of like, yeah, we're having fun here aspect of the film. So, yeah, I'm trying to think of other things that, um, it's still quite, I guess, well, one of them would be, yeah, let's let's jump to Jim Malone's apartment and his kind of death, like, which is the thing that I think is massively shut, like, obviously, Brian de Palmeau's, like, it's, yeah, many people said he just rips up, Hitchcock, like, tenfold, and I think like, this scene is probably the biggest homage to to Hitchcock in a way, and that like, there's a lot of like, POV of the guys, like, snorkeying them down the hall and stuff like that, and like, you know, you get that real sense of, again, like, I think Brian de Palmeau is a master of creating tension and kind of like, giving us really good pay-ups to it. What do you make of, yeah, what do you make of that kind of the way that Jim Malone's death is kind of that scene together? I mean, you can tell from the beginning of that, and as you mentioned, that kind of POV shot where it's the camera hiding from the window, I mean, things like that, it does put you in that position somewhat where, it's hard to say if you know what's going to happen, I guess it's more the journey rather than the destination, but the fact is how it's done.

I think you get that moment where you think that Malone has got it, he's worked it out, he's just the fella out, and of course then the nitty is then in the background, and the fact that I think towards the end it's interspersed with, with Capone at the Opera, where he's giving off his vibes of being a respectable cultured guy, and all the while he's ordered this policeman to be killed. I mean, it is very well done by Colory, and I think there is a little bit of ham at the end where he's dying, rather than grabbing the hankoff key, but also the pointing at the train timetable for when they're planning on doing that, they move. That's if I was like, who shot Mr Burns at the end, where they're pointing at the compass? Yeah, the sun died right here.

I guess that's a reference to this, right? Because I know that Simpsons are kind of famous for pulling stuff, I enjoy, and I imagine, I don't know, they did a whole episode that's based on Cape Fear, I imagine they would have nicked a bit of the untonged ones for who shot Mr Burns. Well, they did an episode of the Beer Baron, and I remember the name of the character who was essentially Eliant Ness, and Homer was the Beer Baron when they introduced Prohibition into Springfield, and there was that thing that I'm going to get you Beer Baron, and he said, no you won't. What is amazing, like, a shot I love in this film, as you mentioned about the Opera, is that shot we get to the Opera singing, and you can kind of see how Capone in the background, and then it kind of like, bathed him, or like just kind of transitions into a zoom shot into him, kind of like, almost like Monically Laughing, isn't it?

It's like, it's almost, I don't know, like, he can see, and I guess he's in the Opera as well, it's like the tragedy that we're seeing of Malone's death, right? So I guess like, thematic, it works perfectly. And for that moment, yeah, like you said, there's a lot of harm in Sean Godfrey's performance when he's really giving it, and it's death, but I don't know, like, I think that scene into what is, I guess, the most iconic sequence of this film, with the steps at the train station, into the like, chase, is a real like, flex of the muscle by the part, because all three of those, I don't know, like, well, that the steps could have easily been a, like, a genuine onto this film, I mean, could have been a perfect ending, whereas like, you're like that, I'm going to give you a little bit more. So yeah, what do you make of the, what happens in the train station sequence, and what your kind of views on it?

I mean, I think when you look at it now, and you see how integral it is to the film, but they've also added so many parts of it to add Jeopardy and Peril, and it's the end of that part where suddenly having the best shot on the academy on your team, oh, okay, that's just as well, he's on there. And I think it's just so well done. And it is overplaying again, you know, this is not a film for subtlety in any way at all. But when you've gone from Sean Connery's death to a slow motion baby in a bugaboo going down steps at the station, and you've, oh, it's just, you can watch it a thousand times and you still feel like whether you're, it's because now you're a parent and you've got, you suddenly now place yourself with a mum and not the cops or the robbers or anything like that.

And all these gun fires going on and people can shot in the head. They're on leave, they're there for a good weekend. And, and the way that it's done, it's not subtle, it's just laid out in front of you going, I'm going to make the most of this. And like you say, you know, when you stitch these scenes together, there isn't a lot of let up, you don't get a lot of chance to breathe really because you're going, you know, a lot of films like you say this would have been the finale.

And yet this is just one part of the bigger puzzle in this because this is a massive movie. And it's just so great. And I remember they, I think they ripped off in one of the one of the naked gun movies, I think, the train sequence. It's a homage itself to battleship, a tempkin.

And the, I guess, like, that's a step seen as well. So like, kind of he is borrowing from something in himself anyway. But yeah, it's done so, so well. I hear, I mean, it's just so good to watch.

I think that's, it's easy to take things either too seriously or go too far into parody. But I think it's got such a distinct style to it. The way it's shot. And I think when it ends with George having that kind of dead-eyed clean shot of the head of the guys taking the the dweeb hostage, it's kind of, it's there.

And it ends on that as it was like, that feels like a Bond film that feels like something that classic cinema, you know, and like a western or something like that. And again, that is just the tease up the next sequence where you go to the court. I mean, it's just nonstop. One of the things I noticed on this watch, it's just kind of like, how cleverly with like the kind of shot choices and the kind of in the tension building, because obviously, they don't know who they're looking for.

They're kind of looking about. It kind of like, really subtly like, gives the audience a geography of the place. So like, you're never confused as to what's going on. And I think like without ramping without kind of like being quite slow at the beginning with a lot of this, like looking about and like the kind of him helping the woman up the stairs.

It's kind of like, you need all of that. Like, could have just been a great sequence. I don't know whatever, if the baby had started at the top of the stairs and was let go. But the fact that like, you have all that preamble to the shoot out.

And yeah, again, it kind of, it's not spoon feeding because it's done so like delicately that like, when it happens, it's really satisfied. It's like, oh yeah, I know, I know exactly where everyone is kind of placed in this. Do you know what I mean? Like, it's kind of like, if really tested, you could probably like, given a, given like, an architect's view of that thing is going, Oh, well, any of this is here, George is here, that heavy's there, that heavy's there, do you know what's going on?

And I think like that is, that is real filmmaking, kind of like, at its fore, I think very much, like, let's see a film that we said, like we keep saying it's quite a popcorn film, but like, it doesn't treat the audience like, idiot, so I don't think. No, because I think the simple premise of moving the pieces into position. So like, like you said, him helping the mother with the pram upstairs, that both demonstrates that he's a good guy. But also, yes, we need that parody, parallel jeopardy, but he still has to think about this and still make that snap decision when it emerges that he needs to draw his gun.

But the fact that this buggy is going down the steps, it gives it that extra little thing that you're also invested in a child, because what sort of monster wouldn't be, unless you substitute the child for a puppy, in my case. But otherwise it's, it is, when you break it down to its core, it's very simple, but it still has to be done well, it's still executed really well. And, you know, ultimately, yes, we're, we kind of spoiled a little bit by the end, the headshot at the end. And the fact that they get this guy to court the next day, but I think, you know, and ultimately it means that Malone's death wasn't in vain.

He still gave the information that got this guy and, you know, it all, all feeds into each other. Yeah, what a satisfying kind of like dampener and then relief, like, and that's the thing, like, whereas other films would have gone, you know what, we'll, we'll string this out of it. This film goes, we'll show you his death and we will literally show you retribution, like, minutes later, Jeremy, it's like, we're kind of rolling from that sequence to this sequence. And you know, like, I hadn't, like, before rewatching this recently, I hadn't rewatched it in years.

And I kind of always imagined that, that thing at the steps being like the final sequence of this film. I don't know, I thought they just walked off into the sunset after that very much has that feel, but like, yeah, like, moving forward to the court, to the court case, like, yeah, what, again, what happens here and what your kind of thoughts on this sequence we get next, Rich? I mean, when you get the fact that Capone is in court, which is a victory in itself to some regard, but ultimately, he's looking so casual. And I think that's almost what gives him away.

And that's what they realize that why is he so casual, when all this evidence is presented against him, and it turned out that they've bribed, I think it was every member of the jury. And of course, being 1930, Chicago, they're all white men. And they have this scene where Nity, Billy Drago, has this list on him, of all the jurors and all the amounts that they've been bribed with. And when he gets seen having a gun on him in a courtroom, which is the worst thing in the world, he gets taken out.

And because he has the matchbook with Malone's address on it, that's what twigs Elliot Ness into this fantastic chase. I mean, it goes on a bit longer than I've remembered recently. For some reason, I thought, when Drago starts abseiling, repailing down the side of the building, for some reason, I had in my head, that's when Ness killed him. But of course, then he gets him back up and is then leading him down.

And as he starts making these comments about killing his mate, and that's when he throws him off. But yeah, I mean, that's when you really see that Ness is now like, this is what I need to do. But by letting this person live, other people are going to die. He's learned from Jim Malone's kind of like message, right?

That if you want to take this guy down, you've got to be prepared to shoot first. You've got to play by their rules. But unfortunately, this isn't about being by the book. Unfortunately, to get this job done, you've got to get hands dirty.

And I know the mob doesn't play by the rules. So the only way to get them is be prepared to shoot first. I don't know. I don't know if there's that beautiful moment that like the camera really like lingers on having cost there is he's kind of like got that decision in his head, like they were shooting him now while he's dangling on the string, basically, just like hovers, hovers, hovers, rages, and we seem like, but they, but they're not trigger, they're kind of capture the gun up, like, I'm not going to do it.

When he does throw him off, it is like a real like, well, fuck, that's pretty brutal. But at the same time, it's like, yeah, that is what you got to do to kind of get one up on these guys. Yeah, I guess, hopefully my boss is on this into this. But sometimes when, you know, like you said, you've got to play, you've got to try and play by the rules, but ultimately, the mob aren't.

And this is where it's all well and good getting component in front of a jury. But if the jury all bent, and to be honest, the judge also has, they have dirt on him as well, because he's so reluctant to to do anything about it. And I think the fact that Ness does call him up on that rope. And it's a great move.

Ness does in the court as well, where he lies about the judge's name being on that list, which obviously is like an enough guilt when he does what he does. And he's like, my hands are dirt. I mean, I think someone says like, it's like, what's on that list? And he's like, I know.

But it's like, you've sometimes, again, you've got to play by those kind of dirty tactics to kind of like, an equal piece into into into actually getting real justice, not kind of this, sometimes justice through the courts can be very like unjust in some way, right? Yeah. And I think, you know, the scene that we touched on earlier, where when they're in the the carrying or the lodge by the by the Canadian border and Malone intimates that he's going to shoot the guy in order to get him out to talk. Obviously, we know it's a dead guy already, but the mountain's facist fantastic when he sees that.

But you know, Ness isn't appalled by that. I think he sees the ingenuity of it, albeit, you know, sometimes the tactics are questionable, but you know, he sees it gets results. And I think, you know, they're untouchable to an extent, but ultimately, you know, we're not going to turn around and say, you know, Capone got put in prison for tax evasion because Elliot Ness threw a goon off a building. But you know, ultimately, justice was done.

And yeah, Kevin Costner saved the day, which I think he's contractually obliged to do. One of the like real, real tiny details I love in that kind of nitty kind of sequence, it's just right at the beginning of it when the camera just ever so slightly focused, like shift focus from any net is hand to the match, which obviously like on kind of like, deep rewatch and really paying attention to like the shots in this, like just beautiful seat, like, I mean, if you're paying attention, you pick up on a moment like that, then like, it's like a magic trick. And I think like again, very much plays into what I said earlier, I'm like, Brian De Palme using like the tricks of movie making and like filmmaking and not treating the audience like idiots. And it's like, I'm going to put these like really subtle breadcrumbs.

Obviously, like the payoff for that is quite quick, but like, it's a really interesting way to use the camera to just like kind of, if you're paying attention, you can kind of be like, oh, they're significant to this match book. Yeah, there's a lot of like slow gazes and shifty eyes and that kind of, again, stuff that's been done for generations and parody beyond, but it works well within the context of the film. We all know he's a Roman. And at this point, he's kind of realized that, you know, ah, the the caucus turned and the pieces will fall into place and suddenly realized, and I mean, this again, it's that could be another finale to the film, before we get another one with the the judgment.

And I mean, it's just such a way, again, finale to finale to finale. But yeah, it's um, it's satisfying because Niddy is there from the beginning. He's the one who takes the bomb into the the bar or the cafe that the little girl is blown up by. He's the one outside of his house as well.

Right. He kind of makes that passing comment. Like, hey, you live here? Like little girls birthday, is it and stuff like that kind of it's a boy motion for a next game is family out.

Yeah, and I think it says something to that thing of like, yeah, there may be like a big bad like an al Capone, but it's like, it's the people that go along with that kind of, I don't know that organization and stuff like that. And there's like, there'll be a real fucking psychopath to get involved, you know, I mean, and to be one of those, be one of those guys and that they're they're the ones actually carrying out the heinous acts. That's kind of al Capone. Well, most good.

Yeah, well, most good villain movie villains have a good henchman, don't they? And as henchman goes, definitely menacing. He doesn't have some of the tropes of a bomb something else, but he is menacing. He's got that psychotic edge and he looks like it as well.

And he's great casting to have him in there. And I think Billy Drago was typecast as evil goon, but even so he was fantastic. And I like to say that scene where he did pull up outside Ness's house, there was that hint of menace that you'd have got from something like that. You mentioned earlier, obviously by passing in, who frame Roger Rabbit?

Like Billy Drago looks like one of the weasel. Yeah. So yeah, like, well, basically, at the end of the film, obviously, yeah, the judgment comes in, it's not even a judgment, right? It's kind of, it's brought to their, their attention that they're going to swap out of the jury, like for another one.

And then Al Capone's lawyer realizes they're definitely on the back foot and decides to change their plea from not guilty to guilty. And then what I find great about this film is obviously we got that tender scene between and it's in George, but like this film ends on basically like a one-liner. Yeah, I think it's, it's a strange one because again, I mean, I could understand Al Capone being frustrated if your defense lawyer suddenly changes your plea without any consultation. It's, you know, you're paying big bucks for this and to go down essentially without a fight seems a seems like how would this but yeah, I mean, his outrage and outburst saying he's nothing but a gun and a badge to an elianist.

And you know, it's great. I come up and you know, he's, he's quite enough to jail and an elianist rides off into the sunset. But it's, it's a strange kind of, and it has to be done, I think, after all the excitement of the, the train station and the rooftop and everything and my loans death that, you know, ultimately your villain is convicted for tax evasion of the how many murders and frauds and stuff. But I mean, to tie that up, it's just so, so well done.

And yes, it is a bit twee at the end. But I think the, you know, looking at the photo and handing over the handcuffs, he's a George, it is poignant. And I think you need that at the end. And, you know, it does leave you with a little bit of wonder what happened after this, which all good films should do, I think.

Yeah, it ends on that line. It's almost like a kind of beautiful irony to the film where obviously he's like, there's that journalist who's kind of throughout the film, kind of, always happens to be there at the right opportune moment to get shot or whatever he kind of says to him, like, what are you going to do now? Like, Jim, like, Jim, we're going to do now, Elliot, now that the prohibition is coming in. What do you think about that?

Like the final line we get in the film is, you know what? I think I'll have a drink, which is like, right upon somebody who's not really known for comedy and his kind of comedies don't really work. But I think this film, I don't know, you feel like it's some great comedy within it. Yeah, I think a lot of it is the comedy from the camaraderie rather than necessarily the one liners.

And I think that kind of says a lot where it is the interaction between the team, the untouchables, but also between the protagonists. But I think, I mean, as again, as a final line, it's, I think I'll have a drink. You know, there's a lot of words there that aren't, you know, repealing prohibition. You need to have paid attention.

If they're going to repeal prohibition, what you're going to do? I mean, you know, you could think that's some kind of crazy dance craze or something like that. But even so, even so, I mean, when you do look into Elliot and you find out that he had more than one drink, he had quite the heavy drinking problem. So, yeah, the beer baron was caught in the end.

I just think it's fascinating as well that like setting something in prohibition era is like really sets up that thing of like somebody who is really by the book as well, like kind of as a moral tale. Is that thing that obviously, especially looking at it in the 1980s, like a decade that is known for its kind of decadence and opulence and then like looking at it from now, where kind of especially in the UK where like binge culture or drinking is kind of like the norm and stuff like that. It's like, and like even the film addressed it by being like, I know that a lot of you do drink and stuff like that because it's almost like a, I don't, it's a really arcane law. Do you mean that thing of like, it's a weird one, right?

Well, it is, but we also see that Malone has a bottle of whiskey in his kitchen when the Deaf scene. And so again, you know, not exactly white or the white, but this kind of shows how, and again, you could change that to a potential future where, you know, you start outlawing drugs or any kind of recreation where someone will always seek to profit. And how you deal with that is an entirely different matter. But I think, you know, the fact that Eddiness will take a drink if the law allows him to, it's, you know, helping to topic a little political, you know, it's nice that the lawmakers and law enforcers do stick to the rules and not think that they're far above it and everything like that.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I think it very like, because this film is all about painting him to be like white picket fences, you said white and white kind of like real like shiny barge law enforter in the fact, like you said, they fudged a lot of the troops about Elliot next. I think finally took down Al Capone, he was kind of like all his third marriage, like he never kind of had the nuclear family of two kids and the white and he never had an adopted son and stuff like that. It's not like he's like, I don't know, he seems like a lot more complex character than the film portrays him. Yeah, but I think for the purpose of the film, it was right, it shows him, you know, how do they get to, if this organization has tentacles, how do they get to him?

Are they threaten his wife and kid? And you know, at the time, things were a lot more gray than that. But I mean, he was very good, you know, he was always well turned out and shiny shoes and combed hair, armali suits, but then I think they all did. But even so, I think, you know, they make no bones about it and ultimately, you know, he did learn from alone, whether it was good or bad, but you know, ultimate at the end of the day, they got their man.

So, you know, maybe we should all be more like Elliot Ness, Kevin Costner version, of course, rather than the real one. Yeah, I don't know, the real one sounds like he's a bit of an ark, he's a bit more like a little more. Yeah, a lot more fun, we got a lot of night out. Yeah, exactly.

So, before we start to wrap things up, like, is there anything else in the film that we've missed that you thought we should talk about at the rich? I think the scene on the border, and I have gone back to it a couple of times, but there's so many elements of that, like a western, that again, you know, maybe that's where the Morriconi link, and I'm looking for things that aren't there, but you know, the horses on the frontier and all these mountains coming in and everything. And, you know, there's elements of that which look like a nice homage to, you know, again, in 1930, people were still having some nostalgia for there. And I particularly enjoyed the scene where Malone was fighting with the other Irish cop and he's sort of thinking, you know, from my family background, you know, seeing two Irishmen fighting in the rain, it's just like a homo Saturday night.

But it's, you know, it's just, there were a lot of portrayals of corruption in there, and I've recently watched the wire, so again, that's quite frustrating in my mind. But there's a lot of stuff going on there that there's a lot of layered stuff where if this was drawn out into a TV series in this kind of universe where they carried on with the larger the life characters and the slightly hazy truth, it would be fun to see where they go with it. You know, the script and the story are the way they are. And I think there's a lot there that without taking away from the film, there are a lot of things that you'd like to know more about, and I'm not saying go back and do that.

But yes, it's always nice when you come away from a film thinking, yeah, I wonder what happened there, or you know, there's more to that, in another world in a four-hour alternate cut, there'd be some kind of extra footage or deleted scenes that would really not fill the gaps but wet the appetite. Well, it feels like this is a perfect time to mention that there is actually a 1959 Untouchables TV series, which when you kind of look at, it doesn't really get too much mention like on anything about this film, because I guess they both they both hold from the same source material, whether it is the kind of any next novel or yeah, like there's a couple of books, there's a, yeah, Oscar Fraley and any next kind of book about it. But yeah, there's four seasons of a 1940, a 1959 series all about like the kind of ongoing exploits of the Untouchables. So, I know maybe that's where you get your feel of the more inventions with these guys.

Yeah, I have to go and track that down. I kind of imagine that's the sort of thing doing the way Amazon Prime, it's not a, not a C list enough for them, but yeah, who knows who Amazon Prime, they're interfacing, so super-wearing, that it's probably buried in there somewhere, probably next to the live tennis. It's certainly the search for them there, and never the ones that you have, that they get to you on your own page. Yeah, so if you've run out of live tennis to watch, it's almost there.

Right, Rich, yeah, as we wrap this up, I just want to put this in contact with the movie, Brad, I was like, didn't you think of any other movie, Brad, who did a film that kind of played in this same sandbox? I mean, I think this kind of works, and I mean, with the De Niro link, it would have been fun to have seen this in a Scorsese or a copula angle, I think. The version of it, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I don't think it would have been, I mean, you would have had differences in the techniques and the shots and everything, but you kind of imagine that perhaps the portrayals and the styles would have been fairly similar.

I think it would have been fenest differently and presented differently, but I think ultimately, if you've got a skilled movie maker who's got experience of dealing with certain cast members and very clear about what they want to put on the screen, I think, yeah, they would have worked. I mean, it was more so in their case, but I think, I mean, I was just saying, I don't want to decry what the department did at all, but I think it did a fantastic job and wouldn't change anything about it quite frankly, but I think there definitely a couple of tweaks with maybe some of the more signature moves of one of those other guys would have made it more interesting, but I don't think it would have made it any better. I think the closest director to this, if you kind of strip away the the department is, I could see a Steven Spielberg version of this film with me. Yeah, I mean, he's gone back, especially when you look at his kind of later, but, you know, once you've gone away from the, sorry, once you've gone away from the Indiana Jones and the Jaws and all that, he has gone into the past.

He spent a lot of time looking at, you know, films in different genres and with different styles. I mean, you've got a West Side Story, for example, and I think he would have put a flourish on there that would have been different, but I think if handled by someone that's killed a Spielberg, it almost only would have worked. Yeah, I think the Spielberg version of this would have been a bit more serious as well, like, which I think it's weird, especially when you think about, yeah, this film is written by David Mamett, who's known for being like, like, a, you know, like, a serious, like, playwright and fricwriter and then obviously Brian De Palma, who I guess if anything, it's kind of, or shocking, if anything, like, in his film. It's like the hymn really, like, at least his first dip of the toe into, like, a blockbuster somewhat.

I know that, um, Scarface did well, but that's still very much like a very gritty film, but this is very much like, I don't know, like, it's a summer film, right? It's a kind of, it could easily be like a kind of, I don't know, it's, it's kind of got this reputation, especially for me, it's like, it's a classic ITV2 film. That's the thing I think before I watched it, I mean, I own it on iTunes, but I think it was recently one of those that was offed on ITV2 that you turn on to, kind of, when you finish watching whatever you are of the evening and you turn in and you're halfway through here, it's probably around the scene of the Canadian boarding, okay, I'll give it another half hour then. Yeah, before you don't, you've watched the whole thing.

Yeah, that's easily done. It's an ultimately re-watchable film as well, so, um, yeah, let's kind of close this up and look, the way I like to do that is obviously my bread and butter is talking about the Coppola family and of course Francis Ford Coppola and I like to, I like to look at where Coppola was at his time in his career and how, how this film compares to what he was doing at that time. So 1987, the filming question is Gardens of Stone. Have you ever seen Gardens of Stone?

No, I haven't. I am, again, this, you know, my deep dive clearly hasn't, hasn't gone where it should have done, but I think, yeah, I think if we're talking a film that I haven't seen, and I'm not saying, again, I know Buff, but, you know, I know very little about it to be honest, but I would struggle to picture it as in maybe not the same league, that would be harsh, but I have such fondness for the untouchables that I will, I may have to sit down watch Gardens of Stone just to see how it actually compares because I do love the untouchables. Oh, yeah, so Gardens of Stone is one that until I started, like, looking up on the Coppola's films, I've no idea even existed. It's all those kind of odd buttons, very personal film, kind of, almost like his answer to Apocalypse now, it's kind of about an aging, like, guy in the army and like kind of dealing with grief and stuff like that.

So very much like, I don't know, yeah, in that way that some of these directors would revisit, maybe just kind of genres or subject matters that they'd played in before and kind of maybe give it like, I don't know, more of like a serious look and a more heartfelt look in the post and a big one-bastic thing. But, you know, the numbers, so we're sort of Gardens of Stone. Those of you keenly listening would have remembered the Un-Budgeon Box office, so let's see how they compare. Gardens of Stone is $13 million to make box office of $5,200,000 and $62,000, oh no, $62,050.

The untouchables $25 million budget with a box office is a return of $1.6, $106.2 million, I guess, on a financial basis, the untouchables is a better film. Yeah, without you seeing the film, I guess you can't comment on which one is better, but I guess the untouchables in the sheer fact that I hadn't heard about it, giving a deep dive on the copolysis and having never seen it, but it doesn't have the last impression that the untouchables does, right? No, but I'm tempted to give it a go just on that basis. It's very interesting to see, I mean, again, different filmmakers with different backgrounds, and if there is a personal element to it with the Vietnam side, but yeah, it's, I would struggle.

I mean, there aren't many films that I've kind of gone back to for the first time as an adult and been wowed by, and I mean, we're talking things like Blade Runner here, perhaps, but, yeah, I mean, it would have to go some, and I mean, I'd go in there with an open mind, let's put it that way. Perfect, so let's score this film, Rich. Yeah, how many, how many pendants of St. Jude out of five do you give the untouchables?

Oh, I'm going to give this five text of the drink for this. Five swigs of a whiskey that I keep in a record player in my bachelor pad, just like Sean Connery. Lovely, lovely. Yeah, I think this is definitely like a solid four start.

But yeah, this is a four St. Jude dependence at five for me. It's, I don't know, it just because I'm in the kind of very much encompassed in the department world. It's not one of my favorites of departments.

Like, at the moment, there might be some recent sea bias on it, but I hardly owe his way. I think it's last to be. So I kind of feel like I'm judging stuff against the last department film scene, but this is, like I've said, about the conversation, it's made some amazing, like fantastic set pieces. There's more, there's more than one, films get by on just one set piece, this film kind of, like, have that set piece, have that set piece, have that set piece, let's throw in another one just for good measure.

And yeah, it's fun. Like that's what you want from the film, a lot of fun. That's absolutely spades of fun. Yeah, I mean, every ingredient worked together.

And the way it was constructed, the way it was presented, and ultimately the directors responsible for that. And it just watching it again, several times before. And now there's nothing that I change, there's nothing that I get bored with. And like you said as well, there's very little found the film, you know, and for a two hour film, it doesn't feel long at all.

And I know by one, I was about down as two hours, probably quite short, but even so, you can watch enough of this and get something from it, whether it's a performance, whether it's an angle you haven't seen or a joke or a line, it's all just so good. And I think it's a very interesting thing. I think it's a very interesting thing, as a filmmaker and how he's bringing his stamp to the film. And I guess what this film does really well, in a way, is it has enough of the kind of the parma flare without kind of bogging the film down, with kind of flashiness and kind of his trope, very conveniently, just kind of uses them.

So his advantage and kind of uses them to build tension and kind of make things interesting, really fun, character. The parma is very much like a seasoning to all of that. So it's a solid film. Yeah, yeah.

I enjoyed it hugely. But thank you for letting me, okay, sorry, thank you for giving me an excuse to watch it again, not that I ever need one, but don't you sit down and not happen across it halfway through, but sit down with a pen, it's cracking. Always love it. No worries, Rich.

Well, before I let you go, like, where can people keep up with you? What is happening with the actual video card? Is it dead like the beta max itself, or is it kind of hyper-dating waiting for it? Long return, and obviously, tell us about what are these called best, like, where can people listen to them?

Yeah, so Big Mac's video club, I'll be honest, I think it's gone the way from alone now. I don't think it's coming back. It's how it's glorious, glorious finale. And yeah, so that was 1995 episodes in the end of all about 80s movies.

It was a week we talked about Lethal Weapon, and one of the early ones, one of the legendary Christmas movies we did. Yeah, it was a lot of fun doing that. That's still available. I haven't done a new one now for a year.

I think it ended on Flash Gordon. But yeah, there's a lot there. There's plenty of Sean Connery, don't you worry. So that's gone.

And don't you want me, which I do now with Katri-Lo, who was a regular on the E-M-X. We did the Moonstruck episode, which was a lot of fun because that was a great film. But we do a podcast now, which looks specifically at the relationships between characters within a film. And they're not always romantic ones.

So I've been, I guess, in this Untouchables, you're probably looking at a textbook idea. One for us would be that between Elliot Ness and Malone. We did one about Point Break, where it was between Keanu Reeves and Patrick Swayze. There's a couple where we're looking at kind of professional relationships or, you know, obviously romantic, but then, you know, family ones, too.

So we got to the series of that last year in a few bonus episodes. And Series Two, that will be coming very soon with that. Yeah, I've got a wide range of films, everything from back to it happened one night in 1934. And I think the most recent film we've done would have been Her by Spike Jones's film.

So, yeah, that was a good one. Spike Jones, somebody who has open connections was at one point. Indeed. Yeah, there's a lot going on there.

And obviously there's a nice link with Lost in Translation there with Mr. Hanson's presence. But I think, yeah, everything, luckily, because she wasn't on camera, it's quite obvious what was being said within F2L. Amazing, amazing, well rich.

Yeah, thank you so much for coming and moving Brat in and throwing with me. Thank you. So, yeah, you bought a knife I bought again. And there we have it, guys.

The fantastic Rich Nelson on the equally fantastic, the untouchables. If you enjoyed this little, this little, this little, this little dalliance in the, in the world of brand department, please be sure if you're on the Patreon and you know somebody else who might enjoy what we're doing on over here, let them know, guys. So it's fun, it's always fun to have some more people because we've missed some more money. But also it was, it was nice to know that there's a horde of people listening out there as well.

I like to think that this is a nice extension to what we're doing on the main podcast and hopefully get to go to some interesting and more bizarre places than we sometimes do on there as well. As for next time on this Dear Here, diploma, we will be looking at the 1980 Brantparma Paranoid Relax Classic, a low-out and I have two fantastic guests lined up for that. People who you may know from the main feed or I don't know, you just may know them from podcast land or Prince Charles Cinema Land. It is the fantastic Jonathan Foster of the Pod Charles Cinecast fame and the always lovely, fantastic and knowledgeable Becky Dart from the Point Horror podcast, the Evolution of Horror.

She pops up on loads of different stuff, she's still one of my personal favorite podcasts all the time which is the Not Just For Kids podcast. Yes, she always doing a russ on that. There's just always a lot of fun to hear and yeah, I can't wait to have this conversation, this one's not recorded yet but I already, I don't know, putting together these guest pairings, I feel like I'm mad scientist and I feel like this one is going to pay off and I'm going to have this beautiful beast of a Frankenstein monster of an episode for that one. I think Becky and Jonathan will get on well.

But then again, I could be horribly wrong. So yeah, as always guys, shout out about this, share it on the socials when I drop this episode, you know the score, let people know, let's all have fun. Remember to keep on movie, brat and bro in and catch you next time. You've got social dial then, search is doing its thing.

So why do your marketing results look the same as six months ago? That's because you're fishing in the same pond as everyone else. Podcast listeners are a different audience entirely, more engaged, harder to reach through traditional channels and ready to act when someone they trust makes a recommendation. We're ACAST and we put them right in front of you.

Browse thousands of the world's leading podcasts, book host reads or run your own ads and track every conversion in real time. Same skills you already have, brand new results. ACAST. ACAST.com slash advertised.

This podcast is presented by the breadcrumbs collective, home of the Podgehaws and ACAST, caged in copal connections, a trip to on Limerick Maine, franchise and many more to come. Our shows are all presented ad-free and made possible by listeners like you. Please support our shows by subscribing, leaving ratings and reviews and becoming patrons at patreon.com. If you'd like to learn more about breadcrumbs, head over to breadcrumbscollective.com.

Breadcrumbs is more than a podcast network, it's family.