Hello and welcome. This is the Parents You Think debate show. I'm Danusha, Danusha Melina Duban, and today is episode 1 of our first debate. Is having a favourite child, okay?
For the next three weeks, three parents will share their opinions on this question. Parents have been thinking about this old chestnut since well before you and I were born, and since before our parents were born. Parents You Think is the next expansive brand chapter of what was called the School For Mothers podcast, and I hosted that for five years. Because PWT is a new format, I'll explain what you can expect and I'll get on to the debate.
Now like any debate, there are standard segments to make sure everyone has their say in a set framework. What my three guests say in these segments is up to them, but I want them to get equal chance to put forward their views. I'll always have three guests. Whatever topic we're debating, I guarantee they don't hold identical opinions unless they switch how they think during the debate.
Each debate topic is cut across three episodes. Episode 1 starts out with an intro to the topic, followed by dishing the dirt in which I do what it says on the tin before my guests arrive. I share what I think about the debate topic. This week, you'll hear my thoughts on the OKness or not of having a favourite child and my experiences with this.
If you haven't listened to School For Mothers podcast, the legacy show PWT has grown from, you might not know that I'm mum to 10 brilliant souls, six sons, four daughters. Are they all my favourites? Ask a ground for dirt being dished on that one. Still, in episode 1, we move on to my guests, three parents from across the world.
First, they share their life story with you. It's not me reading a bio. It's them and their own words describing a snapshot of what they want you to know about them and their lives. After you've heard who debate guests are, we go to the say in six segments.
Now this is six words that sum up their opinion on the debate topic. Once you've got an idea of where they're coming from, it's the P that fits me segment. The P's guests choose from are predictable, progressive and polarising. When we get to this segment, I'll tell you more.
All you need to know for now is this part is like a decoration, a stake in the ground, which is why we close out episode 1 here. In EPTU, the same three parents who think we turn to Shenmoor. The bulk of this episode centres around a segment called Get Up On Your High Horse. This is the core debate, answering, is it OK to have a favourite child or whatever debate we're having.
Miss episode 1 and you won't get those who are in the context of their opinions. You'd also miss what my thoughts are on the debate. Having heard are three parents thoughts on what they believe and why, in episode 3, we get into a segment called If This, Then That. Which is based on the idea that if we let this happen, then that will happen.
Opinions are, can I say, not necessarily about the subject itself. It's often about our projected assumptions about what might happen in the future if we allow something to happen or be done. This segment is about why this matters and what the impact of this is on us, on our children and maybe on society. Before concluding each debate, there's a segment that zones in on the one habit guests have because of their opinions.
I'm looking forward to hearing all these diverse habits. Now, when I say conclude debates, that's not because there's ever winners or losers in PWT, by the way. Finally, I'm scheming about PWT Live episodes which I hope to put together over on the Parents You Think are sub-stack. Now, this will be a chance for you to get involved and have your say on debates.
Come join our sub-stack community where I'll share news on this and more. Put Parents You Think sub-stack into your search engine and it'll just come up and you can come over and join. I'll tell you a little bit about me in a mow, but for starters, it's enough to say that in my day job, people tell me their stories. That's corporate and deeply personal ones and I keep them secret.
Being a corporate secret holder is essential in our consulting company. In my night job, PWT, it's the opposite. I learn about and share people's stories and the opinions that come from these. At the other day, someone said to me, D'Nusha, I never used to worry about saying something that will be taken the wrong way.
But now, people are so careful and self-conscious. We've got to a stage, generally, where thoughtful, nuanced ideas get shut down. Hosting PWT is a test for me as I showcase voices with opinions that wrangle and probably even offend me. I'm not always going to be able to stay unhooked and untriggered when people share things I'm offended by.
The upstart in me, for instance, can't be predicted, but it's there. I mean, I'm sure it is. The right chis. I'm right, person, lives in all of us somewhere and can leap out from hidden places.
We thought we'd sorted or didn't know lurks. It's our attachment to how we think things should be. Now, you're going to hear opinions similar to your own, perhaps. And about my 10 kids, you'll hear from people whose opinions you find frustrating, confounding, and even obnoxious.
Including me. As I promise to show up as the flawed, disagreeable person I can be, whether you chime with or disagree with my opinions. Parents, you think, is a place for scrappy-edged, imperfect humans and our contrasting and contradictory views on hot topics, together in a diverse community. You won't agree with everything you hear, and that's exactly the point.
Now, we're last thing. If you're uncertain about what you think, you found home. I expect debates where I'll share my uncertainty and even indifference. We don't have to be sure of what we think.
Now, this might be the first time you've met. For those of you who know me, skip forward a minute. You just might not want to listen. Here's a snapshot of me in steps.
I've advised on strategy and leadership in 142 boardrooms over two decades across five continents. Spent more than six years pregnant, burning 11 children, 10 living. Consulted to more fortune global 500 companies than the times Elon Musk shed tears over a rocket launch. I've expressed milk in 17 company lose and restrooms.
Written two books in the last three years on parent identity. Changed 42,707 nachis. Recoded over 404 podcast episodes over the past five years. Lost 9,315 nights of sleep and still counting these.
One zero business awards, but supported nine others to clinch theirs. Tried every childcare solution known to humankind and still find it impossible. Mental five founders to secure more than 57 million pounds of series A funding. Battled with teens at least 2,688 times and received and given hundreds of thousands of cuddles just too precious to put a price on.
If you want to know more, pop over to read my whinydayjob bio on DanishaMillionADubbon.com or find me on LinkedIn to connect if that's your thing. For my night job, it's all over on the PWT substa. How about this? Is it okay to have a favourite child debate then?
Should we get to that? Now depending on who you listen to, favouritism is either likened to a form of cancer that runs in too many families or its special treatment that's a blessing helping ensure healthy kids and healthy families. The effects are perceived either as deep lasting and dire or as something undeniable because pretending favouritism doesn't exist damages whole families. We'll hear if favourite implies parents like one child more than others and prioritise one more than these others.
Then there's this. Do all parents secretly have favourite children and are kids know it whether we have admitted or not? Or the idea that no parent should ever use the word favourite? Or is it that what matters is that all kids have their turn at being the favourite?
That favouritism is fluid where all kids have their fair share of the special treatment? Now there's one occasion that especially brings to the surface the issue of favourite kids, will writing and reading. Now will as a person's final say in who benefits from their assets after they've gone? In some cases it's the final word from a parent to their child.
When a parent dies and they leave an estate, how they divide that estate can often show in concrete ways how they feel about their children. One child is left to commode at a set of encyclopedias, the other child, the two million pound house. Difficult to not come to the conclusion one child is favoured over the other, right? The dirty little secret of parenthood, if it's that, gets confirmed.
Point here is this, is it ok to have a favourite child? Ok as in right or wrong. Why are the consequences of having a fave? Is it so bad to acknowledge yourselves that you are special place in your heart for a specific child?
That circumstances mean you shared something together or you simply get along with them at a deeper, better level? That this child gives you as a human something another child doesn't but you like the child more than others? Of course this isn't the full, uncompleat list. There's a difference between internally acknowledging and accepting having a favourite child and acting on this.
How much is our behaviour affected by this knowledge? How does this impact our other children? It's all perception. We're not in control of what our children make of things and the conclusions they form because of their experiences with us as parents.
Having said all this, let's move on to dishing the dirt where I dish my dirt on the debate topic. Oh this is such a tricky subject. I just, oh I'll just get on with it. I was not the favourite child growing up.
My adopted mum used to say that my parents had their name to adopt a boy. They'd adopted one three years earlier and wanted a brother for him. They were in line for a particular boy baby and everything was ready for him. Everything, I mean I know it was.
Then a cool cane to say another family had been given their baby boy but they did have a bill without a home. Were they willing to take her on instead? Mum really counted my adoption origin story as if it was somehow good. My adopted family subscribed more to the You're an Orphan narrative than the other You're a chosen child one.
Beside my older three brothers I couldn't do anything to become favourite. It was a playing field I just didn't see as one I could enter. I mean if this sounds sad, honestly that's not my intended tone or my feelings. I simply accepted the faves lot was an open to me.
I was circumspect and undistressed. I got on with being the only girl. I made the best of less interestingly. I found freedom in doing me without what I saw as pressures and vigilance.
Although it's much more nuanced than this because I'm recounting my history as if my parents were aligned. It was my mother that was the one who spoke of her best affections for my boy siblings. My father tucked me under his wing quietly and while not outwardly showing disagreement with my mother, oh no, he secretly had a soft spot for our time together. He made space for me, just us.
Was I his favourite? I don't think he thought in those terms. I had his special place in his heart and that's good enough for me. Later I was married to a favourite child, Golden Boy, his mother's favourite and another four-child family.
He was the adult child with the most prominent successful career. I was painful to witness the advantages he got from being the favourite but I'd be lying if I didn't acknowledge it made life easier. I didn't complain. He wasn't disliked for it among his siblings but they vied for but never attained the top spot.
His mother, though, set Olympic standards for the woman who thought herself good enough to marry this favourite. It seemed like the sun shone out of her son's backside no matter how he behaved. But let's cut to my motherhood. You've heard me say I'm mum of ten in case you're wondering, they're my biological children.
I remember sobbing when pregnant with my second child. As I was so scared I'd never loved that baby as much as I loved to my firstborn. I had a fave child because my only one, until I conceived another. I was terrified there wouldn't be enough love to go around.
I was wrong. Love expands infinitely. There's no limit to it. At least that's what I found.
That isn't the cause necessary for everyone and I'm definitely not here to tell others that it should be either. But that's not the same as having a favourite. I love all my children. This is distinct from always liking their behaviour.
I hope my children know loving them dearly but not necessarily always liking their behaviour but not mutually exclusive. Being mum of a brood of kids means I'm bound to have some I gel with more than others. Some enjoy things I also like. Some share a knack for the kind of humour that brings me alive.
Some box me into the mother role and haven't progressed into knowing me beyond who I am to them. Some grew with me when I was barely out of childhood. Others as my fertility has been closing with my wisdom on the rise. In other words, I was immature with some wiser with others.
That's not to say that my older ones had a bad deal. It's not as simple as that. And because my mother who'd spanned from my teen years to my midlife it means I might answer this now from a different place than I might have done a while back. There were years when I had four sons in little over five years and never expected to be mother to a daughter.
I cherished the specialness of my sons. But when my daughter appeared I was astonished and ecstatic. That's Harriet by the way. It was different than raising my boys, intense and healing.
Luckily I later birthed three more daughters including Madeline my stillborn daughter and then a set of triplets two boys among girls. I would want a hell of a lot of practice thinking about whether having a favourite child is okay. Realistically is it in our control to have or not have a favourite? Are we yet to waste in our feelings?
Don't we enjoy the company or qualities of one child for one thing and enjoy different things in another? I think it's possible to cherish a door and treasure each child for who they are. But that ultimately we may find one child a soul match or a one child. I'm interested about my guess opinions on having a favourite child but also hoping to hear whether they were or are a fave child.
It sets the scene and back loss for how we are with our own kids. You've hurt? I wasn't a favourite so unsurprisingly I whisper John my favourite to my children a lot. It must be a past wound however much it's patched over for me to choose to do this for my own children.
I moved out some of my children would say I don't mention them my favourite. I promise you I have during their younger life. But some of my kids they just won't have been said enough or loud enough. Then those those who say it's not what they care about?
Are they masking or coping with anticipated rejection and say they don't care because of this? Or are they truly blase about the whole idea of being a favourite? In this debate you'll hear from four of my 10 children. Three of them tell you they're the favourite.
They explain why they know this. Recorded independently, no conversation between them. It's infow in the wall from my kids. You'll also hear from one of my children who thinks they're not my favourite child.
This child also says why and again this was recorded solo and is unedited. To my other children you might be listening. You won't hear anything new. I'm not sure all my children have experienced the favourite child slot in their lives.
Have I thought each one child is my favourite at some point? No. Do I have a favourite child? I'll reveal that in episode three of this debate.
Now that's enough from me. Let's meet my guests. You'll hear them introduce themselves. I ask them to record a short life story, not a post-op professional bio.
Meet Peggy in Florida, Darya in Athens and Jamie in New York. As you listen by the way, so my free guests think about what you would say if you were asked to tell your life story in 200 words. Hi, I'm Peggy Starndt. I'm 58 years old divorced mother of four children, two boys, two girls, all pretty much grown, 36, 33, 30, 27 almost.
I'm a seamstress, self-employed, I love being creative and sewing has always supported me when my kids were growing and allowed me to always be there to take care of them. I homeschooled them while they were young and I led homeschooling groups so that I could always be sure to get my kids everything that they need while they were getting their education. Thank you so much. In the Frosty backdrop of 1980s, Iberia, within a family transition from science to entrepreneurship, during the tumultuous britroica, my story began.
This unique upbringing shaped my path as a psychologist, an explorer of human psyche and an entrepreneur. Educational pursuits took me from Cambridge to the University of Japan, blossoming into a career with a leading multinational in London and Geneva. Amidst corporate achievements, I found love with a charismatic Greek, leading to marriage and three incredible children. Our journey we've through doctoral studies, offering books, developing courses and a gliders' scope of cultures across five countries.
Now settled in Greece, I'm dedicated to nurturing a world abundant in love and devoid of violence. A testament to a life both vibrant and purposefully lived. Hello, my name is Jamie Newton-Knight. I am a married mother of four.
I have two adult children and two young children, elementary school age. As a mom, I try to find different ways to find solace and peace. So I try to make sure that I incorporate some form of self-care for myself, which usually means I'm trying to find some quiet time in a corner so I can watch a movie or my favorite TV show. But as a family, we love traveling.
And so that's a little bit about myself. I live in New York and I don't do much other than spending time with my family and being a mom and wife and all the things. I'm looking forward to chatting with you and thank you for this opportunity. Let's move straight on to Satan Six.
This is where my guests share the numbers they're beliefs on a debate topic in six words. It sums their views up. You're gonna find some of my guests have trouble with math. So what's your Satan Six, Peggy?
I don't think you can help having a favorite. I think it's something you just can't resist. Of course you're going to have one that you're like, how did this happen in your miracle? You know, some straight talking from Peggy there.
Here's me talking with Daria. I'm very excited about having this conversation because I'm eager to hear your views on favorite children. And I know you have some strong views around this. So what's your argument in six words?
Like Satan Six for us. Inevitable favoritism subtly influences family dynamics. I think favoritism is inevitable in families. We are humans and we cannot not, you know, have a favorite.
Later we hear where Daria takes this as it's not where I thought we might be going. Jamie comes in strong next. My Satan Six is children shouldn't feel they're our favorites. My thought is just, you know, parents should not make children feel that they're our favorites.
Even if the parent might have one, just don't make them feel that there's one. On the surface, it sounds like there's two four. It's okay to have a favorite child and one against having a favorite child. Once we get into things, the wise and wise thoughts of this topic, you'll hear my guests are torn.
Some are not as absolute as their Satan Six suggests. Of course, that's not everyone. You'll hear how being fixed about an opinion sounds too. Give up with a P that fits me because we live in a time where it's becoming tricky to say what we think in public.
The widely accepted narrative is that we live in divided times. People are routinely described as polarized, while surveys compete to identify divisions of our time. Oh my god, there's so many of them, okay? But here's a few, whether that's a Metropolitan versus Traditionalist, People versus Democracy, or Anywhere versus Somewhere.
My interview with Katie Hopkins consolidated my thinking on who we platform, cancel culture and why this happens. If you've not listened to episode 170 in my Legacy School from others podcast, save up for a time when you're on a drive someplace, or when you can grab a copper and settle in. Who we give voice to matters. We need to hear the opinions of people we disagree with and our children need to learn to coexist with and respect those with differing opinions from themselves.
Do they? I grapple with this. I'm not alone. I know I'm not.
The P that fits me is where guests name, whether they think their opinion is predictable, progressive or polarizing. This is their view of their opinion, rather than how they think other people will perceive them. Got it? Even that's sometimes tough to disentangle.
You'll hear more of that in this first debate. Now before we hear the P that fits today's guess, let's cover how those P's are defined. It's really basic for here. We're not getting too scholarly about this.
I share them with guests before we speak, so they know. So predictable, a commonly held opinion by lots of people. Progressive, a forward thinking opinion that possibly expands, predictable understandings, and polarizing an opinion that's more extreme in relation to predictable thoughts on the topic, and probably goes beyond progressive ideas. These opinions might also elicit strong response.
Bear these definitions in mind as you hear, which P I guess choose. Here's what happened when it asked Peggy her P that fits me. Which P are you? Are you polarizing, progressive or predictable?
What do you think your opinion is? Polarizing, I think. Oh, you put predictable. I did.
Predictable. So in that pre-recording form, you thought your opinion was predictable. Now we're talking, you think it's polarizing. I think a lot of people resist this line of thinking that you have a favorite.
There are a lot of mothers who would be deeply offended. I'm curious about the fact that you've gone from one extreme of saying that your opinion in your view is predictable, not what other people will think about it, but your view is predictable. And now I think what you've done is flip it of what other people will think of you. Yes, yeah.
How others might perceive you, you've shifted it to polarizing. Yeah, I could see some people being offended, especially when it comes to the subject of motherhood. So many women will slide into this battlefield, you know, arguing and fussing about, you know, being more their ego than how they really feel. Or maybe some people hold close how they are really feeling, and then publicly present a different face.
So... Well, it's easy to lie to yourself. I believe I have in the past held on to some really crappy ideals as well. And it's easy to change your mind.
It can be hard to put a finger on or identify the people that fits me. It's about disentangling what we think, rather than what others would think about our opinion. I put it this way, to Darya, in terms of predictable, progressive or polarizing. What do you see your view?
Yeah, but it does progress because I think that looking at the family dynamics, my mother could just look at me with her eyes without saying anything. And that was a lot of the message that I received in terms of harshness. And, you know, looking at it from the multi-vacibes perspective, I think it's quite new. Why isn't your view predictable?
Is my view predictable? Well, it could be predictable for some of the advanced people, but I think for the majority of people, they would not talk about maybe the family dynamics. That would be just simple, like, no, it's bad for the siblings, it's damaging for the whole family, it's toxic. And that's it.
Maybe it adds a little bit of depth, but it's not too far from predictable for some, who are very advanced. Yeah, got you. Yeah. So far, we seem to have Peggy, who thinks her opinion is predictable, but also thinks other people will think it's polarizing.
And we've got Daria, who thinks her opinion is progressive. At this point, it still seems like they're both saying, it's okay to have favorites. Which P is a fit for Jamie then? I feel like my P is predictable.
And I think that it's predictable because I kind of feel like I probably have the opinion that most parents have, like, oh, there's no favorites. It's like that the correct answer, right, is there are no favorites. So I think that my answer is predictable. I really adore that.
You're saying it's predictable because it's the correct one. It's what people would think. Okay, cool. Right.
That's the answer that most people would say out loud. Ah, that's a nice distinction, isn't it? Mm-hmm. Jamie brings a clear cut opinion, but it's not okay for children to feel they're favorites.
But then she side-swiped me with this. Yes, I know people in my own friend's circle who say, you know, yes, I do have a favorite child. And I'm like, you're not supposed to say that. You know, like, well, I don't act on it.
I don't let them see that. I was left wondering whether Jamie has a favorite or not. Or is he that she's just good at not showing who it is? Oh, at this point, I have no clue.
So I'm curious about, oh, there's so much I'm curious about, actually. I'm curious about blended families. Mm-hmm. You are a blended family, yeah?
Yes. Yeah. So how is being a blended family and the favorite piece play out or not? How do you make sure that no one feels that they're the favorite?
Because that's the way you're coming at this, isn't it? It's another layer of, uh, a layer. I'll just go to the layer. In the end, two guests say their opinions are predictable and one progressive.
Join me in episode two to hear when these three parents get up on their high horse to explain why it is or it isn't okay to have a favorite child. I'll leave you with a clip from one of my own children. Here's Tom. My name is Tom and I'm fourth born.
How sure am I that I'm the favorite child? Well, 100% sure. Why? It's a feeling that I'm given to the love I feel.
It's the crown that I carry. Thanks for listening to this episode of Parents Who Think. If you'd like to react in some way to something you've heard, I encourage you to join the Parents Who Think sub-stack community or on our YouTube page, funnily enough called Parents Who Think. Thanks for being such a great supporter of this show and tune in next time for more valuable conversation from PwT.
Hello and welcome. This is the Parents Who Think debate show. I'm Denisha, Denisha Melina Durbin, and today is episode two of our first debate. Welcome back to is having a favorite child, okay?
This is your first time finding your way to Parents Who Think. There's something you'll want to do to get the best and full listener experience. Now trust me. Otherwise, it's the equivalent of diving into the middle of a Netflix series without any context and expecting to understand what's going on.
Now if that's what you enjoy doing, stick around for this episode. If not, then click back one episode and give that a listen. Then you'll know who's who and how debates on PwT work. You'll also hear my three guests tell you snapshots of their life stories, the knob of their opinion on this debate in six words, and whether they believe their opinions are predictable, progressive or polarizing ones.
Oh, and I dish the dirt on where I'm coming from too. I found that bit excruciating as I know my older kids will listen in and it's just Tara exposing talking about this stuff for me. And of course, for debate guests. And that's why it needs to be done.
Not to torture ourselves, but because knowing how well the parents think is good. This is debate done different. Let's see how. First, a quick recap from Peggy, Darya and Jamie with a smidge of me.
Then we'll move on to hear guests get into the core of the debate in the get up on your high horse segment. I think a lot of people resist this line of thinking that you have a favorite. There are a lot of mothers who are deeply offended. Why isn't your view predictable?
Well, it could be predictable for some of the advanced people, but I think for the majority of people, they would not talk about maybe the family dynamics. They would be just simple, like, no, it's bad for the siblings. It's damaging for the whole family. It's toxic.
And that's it. Yes, I know people in my own friend's circle who say, you know, yes, I do have a favorite child. And I'm like, you're not supposed to say that. And I'm like, well, I don't act on it.
I don't let them see that. In episode one, I shared how I wasn't the favorite child in my doctor family. I'm not saying that because I formed an impression or some kind of perception. It's because I asked my mother the hard.
Some would say stupid question. Who's your favorite child, Mummy? I didn't anticipate her brutal answer. It's not you.
When was this warm as a packet of frozen peas, especially about favorites? You've waited long enough. Here's a get up on your high horse segment. So my story is a very unique one because I grew up in a household with my siblings only for the first seven years of my life.
And then I moved to South Carolina with my grandmother, who was my mom's mom. So I grew up as an only child. That's Jamie. Let's get back to her.
I mean, when most people think of their grandmother's attention, they usually think, oh my gosh, I go to my grandma's house for cookies and she gets me snacks and she sneaks me all the wonderful things that my mom and dad won't give me. For me, it was different. I was raised by my grandmother. So it was a bit more start.
She was very strict. However, there was no shortage of love in the household. But I did have cousins who lived near me who I did feel like I was like, she's there the favorites and I'm not. And I felt like it was because I lived there and had to be like, I didn't get the grandmother grandchild relationship.
I got her almost like a mom. Being the only child will make a difference, don't it? Have you ever reintegrated with your biological siblings? Yes.
Once I turned 18, my siblings say I'm the favorite. Oh, fascinating. It's very interesting. It really is.
They all are like, you get treated differently. And I'm like, how? Maybe it's because I didn't grow up with you all. And now it's like, she's trying to make up for the time that we didn't get to spend.
I don't know. I said, but it just, I don't see what they see, but they say that I'm the favorite. I'm the youngest also. So there could be that too.
How does that play out then with you being the assigned favorite by your siblings? Sometimes it's some tension and yeah, it's the point of conversation often at family gatherings. This sentence, it's like she's trying to make up for the time that we didn't get to spend. So be it.
I was favorite. Unfortunately, I was the first child and my parents loved me so much that they aborted the second child who was supposed to be born a year after in favor of me because they could not afford a second child. So early on, they were both doing their doctor dissertations. So we trashed, they had no money and imagined the burden for me to carry for 10 years up until my sister was born where I really asked them every time, you know, I just want a sister.
Can you please give me a sister? And they're like, wait, wait, really trying. But you know, I told them and I was 10, I think, on nine or 10. So if you don't give me a sister, I'll have my own child.
It's like they were laughing at me. They made it happen and I gave her name. My sister is an amazing human, but she was a very different, very different character. I'm very flexible and she's the opposite.
She's very stubborn, but determined. She's been vegan for 15 years. I eat everything. Okay, I may try to be vegan, but I try not to be dramatic.
I like to be flexible. And at the same time as a first, I was the first one to live Russia. I was the first one to go to Cambridge. To do all this, you know, Korean multinational companies.
So as a set of leadership skills and first, I also have the same expectation for my first child. And he's not doing the same thing that I did. And I wonder why? Because we're both alpha people, me and my partner, we come from, in this alpha sort of families and we're the best and we're like, you know, let's go for the stars.
And she's like, no, I'm not interested in this. And here comes Adeleema, right? So knowing everything that I know as psychologists, I've tried so many different ways of thinking, how do I deal with that? And how do I balance that my experience as a child and my experience as a parent?
Yeah, that's quite the dilemma for you, isn't it? And there he is, upending it for you. It's obvious. In your voice, it sounds like it's obvious that he would be, you know, like there's except he's not.
Okay, I was just going to ask you about your growing up. Were you the favorite or not? No, no, no. Actually, I was one of seven kids and I was the second.
So there was my older brother, and then my youngest sister, the two youngest were twins. So, you know, they were amazing. And everybody had the twins. So that was a mutual thing.
My older brother was the favorite. And of course, I resented him ever so greatly for it. I still love him though. And does he know he's the favorite?
Yes. So this was common knowledge, commonly accepted. Yeah, but of course the baby twins, you know, I know they're not babies now, but the little twins had a special place. I love them.
I was eight years older than them. So they were my babies. They were my living babies. So I got to cart them about.
And yes. As I listen to these three parents, I struggle to stay fixed on who was a favorite and who thinks that having favorites is okay. It might be me, but here's a recap. Anyhow, Jamie was and is a favorite as far as her siblings say, but she doesn't want her kids to feel there's any favorites.
We'll come on to the blip she faces in a mo. Dari was also favorite and he surprised her eldest in the same birth position she was, doesn't have her alpha drive. In episode one, she talked about the inevitability of favoritism, subtly influencing family dynamics. I wonder what she'll say about having a favorite herself as she's been on the receiving end of this.
Penny wasn't favorite, but we heard in episode one, she thinks parents can't help but have a favorite. Let's return to Jamie and hope blended family. Right at the end of Ep one, I asked her how she and her husband make sure that no one child feels that they're the favorite. Because I'm the mother of all of the children, it still is the same standpoint that I had with my older children.
However, from my husband's perspective, he does it in a different way where he like spends time with them together, but also separately. So it's like, no, this child is not my favorite. This child just needs something else. He's the person that wants to be there to help with what they need versus like the way that I was doing it was playing on their strengths.
So he focuses more on like, okay, this child needs this, I'm going to be there for them for that. This child needs that I'm going to focus on that. So we kind of are night and day, but it plays off very, very well. Just out of curiosity again, what's his history with favorites and his family?
I mean, I know you can't speak for him. He would say his sister is the favorite. She's the youngest as well. We're all bringing our childhood stuff to our family situations is an emotional baggage.
Well, what happened to us as kids makes a difference to what we create as parents? That's obvious, right? But it's becoming clearer than I ever imagined the more we talk. I love looking at multi-factorial, multifaceted environment where it's not linear, A plus B plus C.
It's a very much an investigative job to find out what is really behind our behavior, our thought process and beliefs and how are we as humans towards our children and how's the relationship and how's that shaped by the try at the child and to parents? This is the most interesting conversation that shapes behavior on the future adults. Parents should not make children feel that they are favorites. So I have four children and as a parent, when you try to make sure that no one does feel it, some children still feel it in some way.
But I don't feel like children should have to feel that because then they start to carry this stigma with them of like, okay, that's the favorite. So then what am I? And then they don't only carry that in the household, but they carry that outside of it in life, in school. And it just has this negative effect oftentimes when they don't feel like they're the favorite, they start to do things that, you know, to make themselves be like, I'm here.
Look at me. That's a really interesting point because I noticed that you put it on the children. It's like children shouldn't feel that way as in they should never be made to feel that way as opposed to parents should never have a favorite. There's a difference, isn't it?
It's definitely a difference because the perception is everything, right? So even if the parent does have a favorite child, when that parent acts out that favoritism, oh, those children see it, oh, those children feel it. And so it's not the children's responsibility to have to figure it's the parent's responsibility to not make them feel that way. Great.
So the big distinction is it's the parent's responsibility, no matter how they feel. Well, my children heard about this debate, four came forward and said they wanted to take part. Three, feel their favorites. One, not.
I gave them a set of questions to answer, how do they know they're the fave child or not? What are the signs of being a favorite child or not? How sure are they? The pros and cons of this position and how they feel about their siblings.
We met my son Tom in episode one. Here's the full lowdown from him. My name's Tom and I'm fourth born. How do I know I'm a favorite child?
Well, it's just a feeling something you're born with. Not trying to like the royal bloodline. It was something I was born into, not something I asked for. Something I'm glad I have, of course.
How sure am I that I'm the favorite child? Well, 100% sure. Well, like I said, it's a feeling. It's a look that I'm given.
It's the love I feel. What are the signs of being a favorite? It's hard to tell. It's definitely, like I said, something I was born into.
The signs are just additional love, favoritism, and being bequeathed Barney Bubbles. Wait up? You all need to know who Barney Bubbles is. Well, my brother, Robin, who was an adult when I was growing up, went to France with his work and he brought me back this tiny plastic figure.
I would have been maybe seven at the time. I got some of my mum's wool and wound it around him as clothes and I called him Barney Bubbles. Over the years, I hadn't let my kids play with him or unwind the wool, although someone who will remain nameless told me they took the wool off once. I was asked who I was going to leave Barney to when I die.
My kids fun. And I truthfully can't remember what I said, but he's become synonymous with whoever gets left with Barney is my favorite child. Now, someone's running with the story and I can't tell you if I ever said he'd get him. He would say I did.
Here he is again. Well, there's none of them not being the favorite. I don't think that anyone has missed their own love or they are treated much differently, but certainly it's an awareness that they have that they're not the favorite. What are the pros and cons of being the favorite child?
Well, there comes a lot of responsibility. There's body bubbles, which is both a pro and a con. Well, I'm going to have to look after him and for all his life continues and he's looked after any other pros. Well, you know, it's the sensation, it's the feeling.
It's the crown that I carry, which is also a con of burden, you know, the jealousy from my siblings can be a con. They will tell you that they are the favorite. That's just jealousy speaking. How do I feel about my non-favorite siblings?
Unofable. They're wonderful. And everyone of Artella's special and I'm each arc is the most special. I have nothing but love for them all and they have nothing but love for me and that's because I'm the favorite.
I'm going to have to think carefully about Barney Bubbles and his future. Do you have a favorite, Peggy? Yes, yes. Of course, that's something I say out loud, but yes, yes, I do.
You do? Yes. Every time I hear a talk, I think, oh, how did you even happen? I think she's a miracle and all of my other children are miracles as well.
It's just in a completely different way in a different manner and my child isn't the same person that she was when she was younger and I love the woman that she's turned into. What I hear you saying is that there's a miracle above miracles. Yes, yes, there is. So they're all miracles, but then they might be this kind of, oh, yes, yes, there is.
I think it's natural. It's organic because that's something you could resist. You just love. It would be impossible to love each one in the same way because they're not the same person.
Why is it impossible? Well, because we respond in different ways to each one. I mean, you get a different, depending on the circumstance, you have a different unemotion or something that's struck or a different feeling or I think it's just sometimes you're just more magnetized in one direction. It doesn't mean you love any of the others.
At drop less, you just love and sometimes it's just maybe magnified in a different way or it's hard to really explain. It's just a feeling. So do you think it's like a romantic chemistry? I mean, clearly without the romance piece?
Yeah, it could be something in their personality or maybe you're just seeing something in them that lights you up because I'd love to think that my kids already have made me a better person, a better woman. Every day we're different and we change and if you see something that inspires you, yeah, it lights you up. It's just love. Love is love.
I don't think you can help who you love. But you make this sound like it's out of her control. Who she loves? Do you have a favorite?
I do not. I love like the four of my children are so vastly different that I love the different things about each of them. So I may have a favorite thing about each of them that I love, but none of the four of them are my favorite children. There are children that are more like me than the others, but still there's no favorite.
But I definitely love them all differently. Like they all have different needs. They all have different specialties and I love those things about them. What would you say to people that say love is love?
As you've just said, you love them differently, but love is love, but then still have favorites. Love is definitely love, but children will see it as you love that one more than you love me. Even though from us as a parent, it's like I just love you all. I love you all, right?
But that parent might be showing this extra attention or this extra hug cuddle time and the child is going to feel it from that perspective. So they're not going to see it as love is love. They're going to see it as mommy loves that child at the most. And there goes her favorite.
We connect with each one of our children in different ways. They're different personalities. They're different skills, they're different talents. And it's not that you love that one more than the other.
It's just maybe you're more drawn to them. You're more you're you see more of the reflection of who you are in their eyes or just something like that. You just see the beauty and the joy in each one of your children. Honestly, can't say that I see the beauty and joy in my kids 24 seven not every day, but I get paid his point.
We are humans and we cannot not have a favorite because the way how we are wired as parents, we have the first child who comes into our family and in the second and third or whatever. And then we have the system that is a hierarchy system. We are never the same parents as we are for the first child. We are always second parents for our second child and so on.
So the dynamics are shaped and they're subtle complicated challenges as we have more and more children. You're effectively saying that it's impossible not to have a favorite and that those dynamics shape us as adults. My position is that we should try to neutralize but it's inevitable that we have so it's a battle of our internal world with external expression and how do we freely balance it out? It's an art because the science tells us that yes, we should look at them equally because there's a lot of jealousy and guilt and shame and bullying going on if we are not careful.
If we just go with the flow and prioritize or support some and we don't support others but how do we do that? I didn't see this coming. It sounds like Daria is saying it's inevitable. We'll have favorites and she thinks we should neutralize the expression of this.
How is this for you? How do you neutralize this as a mother of three? Constantly struggling, I would say. It's particularly difficult for me because I come from a very Soviet kind of system of our brining that is black and white, good and bad and it's quite difficult for me to find variations of gray and different colors in balancing these reactions of mine because I do have very strong reactions to the behavior, to certain situation and context and sometimes it takes over me when I'm not careful.
If I do not pay attention to my own behavior and if I don't spend time to dedicate myself and learn new things, I just go on automation and unfortunately it's very direct and harsh. I become a very harsh mother and it actually shows in children behavior when they become jealous or they're playing out their emotions and they start bickering or fighting or it's pretty much straight away when they feel that there is some sort of favor it isn't going on. But it's a struggle on a databases. I really want to acknowledge the fact that you mentioned that if you're not careful, you can become that harsh, kind of abrasive, harder parent than you really feel but that you default into a position and that's really refreshing to hear because publicly so often we're trying not to say that as mothers particularly because we're meant to be all loving and all soft.
For good mother narrative, where's its head over and over? By the way, fathers will be my guests in other debates. I wonder whether they'd answer today's debate question, similarly and differently. Who's pegging with some truths?
I try to convince them objectively looking at them as just a human being, not just your child because we all have characteristics that are less than attractive and it's the way we are and the way we're made and who we are as people. But I guess we have a notion in society that we should expect our mothers love to be all given, all present, unconditional but your situation that your love for one of the four disrupts that idea, doesn't it? Yeah it does, yeah. Like tells the truth.
Yes, yeah, but I try to be with all of my children, I try to be honest and real. I'm still, I mean, yes, I'm their mother but I'm also human beings and I'm going to have flaws. Which one of us doesn't have flaws? This question of whether we allow mothers to also be human beings is something I covered in my book, Noise.
It's 2024. Why are we somehow surprised that mothers have needs too? It's time I asked Aria the golden question. Do you have a favourite?
I think currently it's definitely, you know, homonely, how a two-year-old and she's absolutely my favourite. She's a favourite for everybody in the family. But I wonder when they start becoming a similar age, similar age group, how that would pan out. But for now that's her and everybody knows.
It's just that's inevitable. Remember when we love the smell of their head or their hair or their, you know, sorry to say like poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo poo. It just sounds and smells so wonderful because we're little and that's how we are wired. But at some point and I have that with my 10-year-old for example, I still enjoy the smell of the hair and I like the cuddle and at some point where the puberty hits and when the teenage, who the adolescent starts appearing, we also have hormonal distance, especially mothers and boys, where that smell becomes repulsive almost like so point and so strong that I can't stand it anymore.
And you know, it's very visceral for me. So physical, I have a teenager and I constantly remind him to go and watch himself or to do something about it, right? And it's just biologically how we're wired. So this one thing, chemical biological part, but of course psychologically, there are certain traits that I feel very attracted by in supporting and this connect to my childhood and how I was awarded.
And I was the first. So I love the traits that show perseverance, hardworking, leadership, expression of emotions. And when I see those traits in my children, I think they become my favorite and whoever expresses that by the way, just you know, it's a car of lunch. But I do have a favorite based on that.
Yes. And whoever is not played by my rules, they become outcast and I try my best to love them hard, but it's a struggle. Do you think they know that? Absolutely.
Yeah, because they know you well. Yeah, I try to hide it. They feel it. Of course, everybody knows we have such strong intuitive center, right?
Our guts, which we call like a second brain. Now we know from science that our micro expressions from the Dr. Paul Ekman's research on facial expressions, we have micro muscle movements that we can't hide. And we read these nuances with our body unconsciously, subconsciously, and they get stored as messages and the influence of the behavior.
Our guts, if we listen to them, tell us everything. We disconnect from this second brain. But if these micro expressions can't be hidden, why does that leave us? Harriet, my daughter is here to tell you why she's favorite.
I know I'm a favorite child because I just know in my gut it's one of those things that you can just sense and it's definitely me. I think one of the key signs of being a favorite child is like a special bond with your parent and just being in sync in so many ways. It's the same kind of concept as when you have a friend where you meet them and you just click and like everything just like flows and you always fancy doing the same kind of thing. I feel like a favorite child and parent bond is similar to that.
It just works and flows not being a favorite. I don't think I'm the best person to answer that. There are many pros of being a favorite child. I think an obvious one is being, you know, a favorite is lovely for anything.
And it's a special bond. Who doesn't want that? A con might be that your opinion has a bit more weight and that could be more pressurising perhaps. I think it would definitely depend on your family dynamic and maybe how many siblings you have as well.
I feel a lot of love and compassion for my siblings who aren't the favorite child. I think over the years they have been very very good spirited about not being the favorite child and have had to accept that mum and I have a special relationship and we just favorite child. What can I say? Harriet never calls me mum ever.
Who is this woman she's talking about? F-Y-I? She calls me mama in real life. You might not be surprised to hear Tom calls me mummy.
I was going back to Jamie who's Adam and kids mustn't feel like they're our favorites. Yet here's the situation she finds herself in. It first was that I was the favorite and now it's that my children are the favorites. Oh so it's been passed down to them as well.
Yeah. You're not continuing this or even creating this favorite piece but it's coming through the family. Yes. I tried to make it a point that they didn't feel that and then it's so interesting that with my siblings and their children they still have to feel it but from a different spectrum from the grandmother's spectrum like you guys are grandma's favorites and they all feel like they have to over explain a lot.
It's like we lived with grandma so we have a different relationship. Mom and grandma lived together for a long time so we have a different relationship. We still reach out and call grandma. You guys don't check out grandma as much as we do so the relationship is very different but from outside I guess the other family members don't see it that way they just say you guys are the favorite.
Seems like having favorites seeps into families one way or another. Before this conversation I was just driving my sons to music school each of them separately and I asked them about favoriteism and my oldest son said well actually it's not too bad to have favoriteism because you learn early on how to survive how to have challenges and not to expect everybody to love you equally to others because the life is different. You know you go to the big world and you need to be equipped. Wow that's interesting.
And then the younger one said he almost cried and he was such in such an emotional state. He's like you are the mother you are a mother he told me. How can you even say that you could favor one child over the other? Of course it should be equal.
Of course imagine if I say that you all the favorite dad over you or he was like I never favor anybody everybody's loved by me equally in this family. So we have a difference in the opinion and we had a debate and I said hold on a second what about Athena? You love her more you told me she's your favorite. And she said but yes mama but she's so little you know because I killed her at express my real feelings to her she's just it's not fair of course.
You see it was very interesting kind of diversion and we haven't finished that conversation so maybe after our I'll go and continue our debate to make a lie. Yeah I think that's fascinating and of course our children have such different perspectives on the principle of having favorites as well as the actual experience within the family. Speaking of this here's Isadora my daughter. Hi I'm Isadora and I'm number six and I know that I'm not the favorite child firstly because my other siblings are so confident that they are.
I feel like I can't really argue with them. I simply just don't feel as confident as they do and it's possibly down to some middle child syndrome. I feel like being a middle child of 10 children is quite a rare circumstance and I've heightened this experience for me. I feel like the pros of not being a favorite child is less pressure to perform like the favorite child but of course I guess the corn is feeling slightly less visible than my other siblings.
I love my favorite siblings and they're probably other favorites. Actually heartbreaking to hear. In episode three you'll hear me talk about favorites. For the moment that's what I can say.
It's actually been something that was brought up in an argument with another one of my kids. It was something that I used to pride myself on that I loved my kids fiercely. I would give up my life and I'd throw myself down in front of the bus or whatever it needs to be to save them and protect them and to lift them up. I still feel like I would do anything for any of them but it's been pointed out that I prefer this one child and I actually realized that yeah I guess I do is just we had a lot of shared experiences.
I was I think around 42. I left my husband when I had been married to for 28 years and this child was the one that came with me and this one was the one that wanted to be free with me and she witnessed my journey into being an independent person and still being their mother and the mother to the other children. So my child she recognized she even sees that she is and she knows that even though at the time when they left with me they still were doing the teenager you know crappy stuff to me at the time. I hate you and the day I turn 18 I'm going to move out and I was like yeah yeah yeah I'll have your boxes ready.
It's fun and when it came to it they didn't move out till they were 22 so meh. How is the relationship between the ones that you prefer this one child? What's their sibling relationship like? That's the thing that saddens me though.