Debate 2: The Sharing Episode

Every time I hear a talk, I think, how did you even have them? You know, like, she's a miracle. And all of my other children are miracles as well. It's just in a completely different way, in a different manner.

My child isn't the same person that she was when she was younger, and I love the woman that she's turned into. Love is love. I don't think you can help who you love. That was Peggy in Florida from our last debate about whether it's okay to have favorite children.

She was joined by Dariot and Jamie as they did a shakedown on that hot topic. To end out, listeners love what they heard. Here's some words from one. I listen to your new Parents You Think podcast and I love it.

I already had two aha moments about the favorite child. The fact that it can be a temporary thing and each child can have their chance at it. But also that it's worse to pretend to not have one if you do. Awareness is always so key.

If you're aware, you can decide whether it's something you want to pursue or not. I'm confident your debates will give parents food for thought to make your own decisions. Well thanks for taking the time to write to me Angie. And here's Lisa who sent me this.

I binge listened to the three episodes of Parents You Think, and I've been needing to rest a few since then. Well done. I love them. I thought it was brilliant.

I left you a review, five stardry and left you a few. Really original format. I haven't heard anything like it before. And actually I think the sort of question answer format does need to shake up.

So yeah, well done to you. Perhaps I hope it's going well in the feedbacks good. I'd actually wondered if people would listen to all three in a row or listen to them separately. And then I saw on the weekend you'd release them all together version.

Love listening to your kids as well. I loved all their perspectives. You've done such a good job. I've been listening to the next one.

Well let's help. We're starting out on episode one of three in our next debate today. On are we creating Molly Coddle Kids. Now before I forget, for listeners outside the UK, replace spoiled in place of Molly Coddle.

So that's are we creating spoiled kids? I'm hoping this debate isn't going to be as emotional for me as the last one. By the way, all ten of my kids are still talking to me after what I said about favorites in our family. I'm Danusha, Danusha Melina Durbin.

And if you're wondering how PWT debates work, we follow a structure by the way so everyone gets chance to say their piece. And this is the first time we've met. See wondering who I am, etc. Then circle back to the episode called How PWT Debates Work.

You'll get everything you need in that ten minute mini episode. If you want to read something on me, instead, pop over to my Wanky Day job bio on Danusha Melina Durbin.com. Or find me on LinkedIn to connect. If that's your thing.

For my night job, it's all over on the parents who think sub-stack. If you put parents who think sub-stack in your search engine, it'll come up. Come for the content. Probably stay for the community that's building really nicely.

Now, anyways, that's that. Let's move ahead to the debate, shall we? I'm bringing you three parents with strong opinions on Molly cobbled kids. What's this topic about?

Let's try to understand why we're even debating it. Here's a quick intro. Historically, childhood was about limited autonomy with children occupying subordinate roles within families, and societal structures. Industrial Revolution brought a huge shift in perceptions of childhood as education and child welfare highlighted the importance of nurturing and protecting the young.

But it wasn't until the late 19th and early 20th centuries that childhood was romanticized and idealized, mainly influenced, by the emergence of child psychology and the increase in children's literature. Now, the notion of childhood as a period of innocence and purity became deeply ingrained in Western, white cultural narratives, perpetuating the myth of childhood as a kind of utopian stage of development. Well, that's part of the back clause, but it isn't such a simple picture. For example, black communities have always had their own visions of childhood.

Black thinker Frederick Douglass famously observed that to be a child in his time was to exist as a laboring thing, and that white children were allowed to mature out of servitude. Black children enjoyed no such future. Now, the political uses of childhood innocence in the cultivation of a racial order have been explored by many writers and academics. Professor Robin Bernstein talks about how American white supremacy is reinforced through what she calls the attribution of innocence and the capacity to suffer to white girls.

Whereas the pure, tender and innocent white girl is deserving of protection, black girls are disqualified from all those qualities. That's what she says. By the early 20th century, the presumption of innocence was more or less exclusively the province of white children. The relationship between childhood and innocence is not a given is it, although many speak of it as if it is.

Now, this P.W.T. debate doesn't cover the vast terrain of the privileges of creating molly-coddled kids. There are children who are denied protected childhoods. We don't attend to the question of who has been and can be molly-coddled in this recorded conversation.

I'm aware of this, and I'm committed to creating a P.W.T. community here and in sub-stat that includes more voices and perspectives. Trust me, when I say I'm working on this. Now, having said that, I'd like to think we can agree that children need security and comfort in this uncertain world.

By providing a nurturing environment where their needs consistently met in their safety is prioritised, parents instill in our children a sense of trust and stability. This foundation of security is a bedrock on which children explore and navigate this complex world around them. On top of this, most if not all parents want strong bonds between ourselves and our kids. Through caregiving and protection, parents demonstrate our unconditional love and commitment to our children's well-being.

This deep emotional connection lays the groundwork for healthy attachment relationships, which are crucial for children's social and emotional development. By feeling secure in their parents' love and support, children are better equipped to explore their environment and form relationships with others. Research tells us that molly-coddling involves shielding children from hardships or discomfort, because making sure they're comfortable and happy is the big aim. To I have mentioned the change concept of childhood as the context for this conversation for this debate.

Parents who molly-coddle kids intervene loads in their lives. They micro-manage their activities, they solve their problems and shield them from failure or disappointment. This approach comes from a wish to safeguard children from harm and boost their self-esteem. In episode three, my guests put the unintended consequences of this parental style through its paces.

We'll hear what these parents think the impact of molly-coddling kids is for the kids themselves, as well as for society. This phenomenon of molly-coddled kids reflects the shift towards overprotective parenting styles. By shielding children from pressures and allowing them to enjoy a carefree and nurturing childhood, our parents really safeguarding their mental and emotional well-being, or instead creating a next generation of entitled, workshine people. Does excessively sheltering children from adversity, challenges and discomfort promote resilience, problem-solving and independence?

Or not? Do we need to nurture a generation better equipped to thrive in our ever-demanding world? But how exactly do we strike a balance between nurturing and challenging children, empowering them to navigate life's complexities with confidence and resilience? Is this balance even needed?

This debate invites them into the nitty-gritty of three parents' lives. They share how they define molly-coddling. Their well-intentioned reasons why they do, or they don't, molly-coddle their kids, and the inside of how that plays out. These are parents who've thought a great deal about the ways they do, what they do, and the reasons for them.

It's raw, no fluff-sharing, and I can't thank my guests enough. Let's meet them, shall we? Now I ask every PWT guest to record their life story in 200 Words Max. That's a tough gig.

I can tell you. It's really tough to do that in 200 Words. My only other pointer is to steer them away from a career-bio-type thing. We get enough of that performative stuff.

Meet Nicola in the southwest of the UK, Tanya in Florida, USA, and Rosie in the southeast of the UK. So I'm Nicola. I'm 43. I'm a leap year, babies.

That means I am 11 in a couple of days. I am very strong. I'm a young, young, mum, and business owner. I had my first child at 19.

I was trying to be a midwife. I've got four boys, 25, 24, 14 and 13 and two grand darts to the eldest. I'm a wife, a doggy mum, self-confessed fitness freak. I love the gym, love working out, and a skin geek.

I can talk about skin all day, all night. Travel enthusiast. I love booking a holiday. I can get more fun.

I'm actually booking the holiday. Food day. You're not going to find chicken nugget, or beige on my plates or serve into my kids. I think my kid, he was at his first food.

I'm a stock for him. Was Kobe Beef. A bit of OCD. I love things in their own place.

I love to hear at least three times a day. I've got no patience whatsoever. As I've got older, it's got worse. That is why I've got my own business because I could not work for anyone else.

I'm so terrible. I just get things done. I don't faff around. I say it as it is.

I'm definitely a girly girl. I love pink. I love sparkles. I used to get dressed up all the time, but living in a little village in the West Country.

Not much opportunity these days. I give up my heels quite a long time ago for trainers. So, I detest tech. Absolutely detest tech.

Doing this was my worst nightmare uploading entering data input. Anyway, that's me. My name is Tanya Hackney. I'm a wife of 26 years to my high school sweetheart.

There are five amazing kids. Live a word sailor, cautious adventurer, ukulele player, award winning author, amateur artist, shower songstress, avid reader, nature lover, and Jesus follower. I have a lifelong love of travel, of seeing new places, meeting new friends, and eating adventurously. From cross country road trips with my mom, dad, brother, and sister, to solo travels in Europe during college and honeymoon in Mexico, the travel bug bit early and hard.

Born with our suburban lifestyle, my husband and I sold our house with the white picket fence outside Atlanta and moved to Florida to enact a five-year plan that would see us get rid of most of our stuff and go on to a 48-foot catamaran with our four kids under the age of eight. In the years since we bought sailing vessel TIC2, we added a fifth kid, traveled all around Florida, up and down the east coast of the U.S., across to the Bahamas, and all over the Caribbean, all while working from home and homeschooling our five kids. Am I crazy? Probably.

But sanity is overrated. I'm Rosie Sherry. I live in Brighton in the UK. I'm a mother to five children, aged six to 20.

If I was to describe myself, I would probably call myself a reckless mother. And I say that partly in just because that's what a newspaper once called me. But really, it's a phrase that I've embraced, so to speak, to show that actually I love being me and I love being a founder. I love having my business to run.

I love being creative with my business. I love being different with how I do business. And I do this through the love I have for the concept of community building, so communities at the heart of everything I do. In addition to that, we're home-edicating family, so that very much impacts how I want a business or even how I choose to learn as well.

Before we move to the Say it in six segment where guests sum up their opinion on the debate topic in just six words, shall we get my dish in the dirt part done? This is where I dish my dirt on the debate topic. If you listen to the last debate, you'll know I found that one agonizing to cover. It's one thing talking about a topic generally, and another talking about it from the inside of our family, right?

I say this a lot when I hear from people wanting to be a guest on this podcast. They're ultra keen, but then I stress that I'm open to people who will spill the tea on what's really happening, not what in principle they believe should happen when we raise our kids. It becomes a bit awkward when it's a parent coach who wants to come on to talk theory but won't open up about their own experiences. That's a no for me.

So one of the reasons for instance Dario's voice is so powerful in the is having a favourite child okay debate. She's an eminent psychologist who shared her real life struggles as well as her wisdom. First, you know I like to connect how we raise our kids with how we were raised. Even if that connection is that we do the total opposite of what we experienced, there's a link.

In episode three, I'll share on whether I mollycoddle my children or not. For now, it's a few words about mollycoddling and my childhood. I grew up on the edge of Darrantmore and to get to school I had to catch three buses. If I missed one of the connections it was a 30 minute walk across Bleak-Moorland in all weathers.

I did that walk hundreds of times because my parents left it to me to make the bus connections work. Even when snow hits or connections didn't mesh it was my job to make things work. Living in a place where transport was hard meant if I wanted to do anything much I either had to rely on my parents or get canny. My mother passed her driving test but chose to not drive despite where we lived.

My Polish father worked from early morning through to late night. His work ethic included little rest. Sundays were for church and a roast, sometimes an adventure in the car. There was another reason my father wasn't available to ferry me about.

I used his taxi and good will up because of my frequent dance lessons in the nearest big city. In order to get his buy-in on these journeys I promised him in a fit of naive optimism that I'd make him proud, which became part of an insane pressure that led to me securing a scholarship to the Royal Ballet. I now feel for my dad, who was never where he was meant to be at the right time. I hung about waiting for him, never quite knowing when he'd arrived to collect me.

He'd get there when he could, not a thought for the situations I had to resolve as I paced street corners on dark winter nights. To add to the jeopardy, I refused to wear my set-calls on account of being called specky four eyes too many times. And so I couldn't see who was who in which cars. I doctored a blind kid smile for everyone, just in case it was him.

You can imagine, it led to misunderstandings. Was that Molly coddled? No. My parents had dropped to me in their fifties.

They were grandparent-like and I wondered what it would be like to be one of my friends with their young fashionable parents. My mother was way more blue-rins than blue jeans and my father was making money and sipping vodka. Old-fashioned and of the ilk that you don't grow character by having anything given to you on a plate. A lot of freedom within limits, the moors were mine.

In the summers I'd build a secret house and the dark more ponies were my pets. I choked I could be trusted to walk across that portion of moore, umpteen times, and the news agents and the other small shops were there. My brother and I were expected to do chores, but it became obvious I was being scald into domestication in ways he wasn't. The assumption was that he would have a wife in the future.

It would take care of such things, whereas I needed to know how to be a domestic manager. My two oldest brothers had already left home, but my brother was given hobby or leisure time. Whereas I went to school, learned how to run the home, and my dance was my hobby. Except it wasn't.

It was an abiding passion. I worked hard at. I'd awed a rigor of it, plus the disciplines of crafting classical form and technique. On the plus side, my mother had a couple of secrets she shared with me.

She loved wrestling and horse racing. On days when her hot flushes needed fanning more than ever, and she fancied company because she was lonely. She'd keep me off school and we'd watch her race or two on the telly. We'd fake that.

On those days, she'd offer up the kind of molly coddling that suited her and gave me something like a holiday from archaic expectations. And all I can say is she became a different woman when that wrestling came on. I liked that a lot. And that was my kind of being molly coddled by my mother.

My father's life hadn't equipped him to ever consider molly coddling as an option. His escape from a war camp as a young boy left deep wounds. I'm trying to think what he'd say if I asked him now about this. His vodka drinking?

I was his way to cope with horrors he'd witnessed and taken part in. His bit of fibrill and if you like molly coddling was he used to lift me up, pop me on the kitchen side and say, D'anusha, your coconut munya, what are you? He'd make me repeat the word coconut munya, and we'd laugh. I used to ask him what that meant.

And he told me, it's a girl who's untamed. That was my molly coddling. Let's move straight on to Say it in Six with Nicola, Rosie and Tanya. So you say it in Six, say it for me Rosie.

Yeah, my Say it in Six is, who standards are we measuring by? So by this I mean, like, I guess everything about me is rethinking the status quo, rethinking my life, not being happy with the status quo to be frank. Rosie kick starts this with a first offical Say it in Six. Who standards are we measuring by?

Let's see where Nicola takes this. We are definitely molly coddling our kids. I believe the generation I'm now growing up, not my older children, but my younger children. I think due to me being older, I'm definitely molly coddling my children, so I want to pretend from the big bad world.

So you are molly coddling. I am now, I never used to. With my eldest, definitely not. My two young girls, I do.

Yes, unfortunately, I know that's not great for them. Well, that puts a different slant on things. Nicola never used to molly coddle her first two kids, but does her youngest two. Hmm, okay.

So you're saying in six. If you could tell me, Tanya, what's your say in six? Our culture is raising weak kids. That sounds like a really strong statement.

Our culture is raising weak kids. Yeah. Got ya. Yeah, I don't know if it's a popular opinion or not, and I think it's very old-fashioned in a sense.

I mean, in many ways I'm more old-fashioned than my parents. I thought it'd be interesting that guests often mention their own childhood when I ask them for their say in six. They volunteer this info, no digging from me. Maybe to you, that's not a surprise, or it's dull.

But I find it illuminating that people from different parts of the world refer to their roots so easily. Atanias are clear, yes, too. Are we creating molly coddle of kids? Nicola also says we're molly coddling, but brings new ones to this, and she hasn't always been a coddler.

Rosie throws the debate up by interrogating the premise of the standards by which we judge molly coddling. These parents plant their flag and say, this is my opinion, there are many, maybe like it, but this one is mine. Of course, even when people on the surface seem like one thing, or think a particular way, is it ever really that simple? Usually not.

I've got this feeling we're going to get a lot out in the open in this debate. Is that anything more yet? Let's get into the P that fits me segment. The P that fits me is where guests name whether they think their opinion is predictable, progressive or polarising.

This is their view of their opinion rather than how they think other people will perceive them. Even that's sometimes tough to disentangle. I mean, none of us are immune to considering what others will think of our opinions. You'll hear more on that later in this debate.

Before we hear the P that fits today's guests, a quick recap on how those P's are defined. It's basic, we're really not getting scholarly about it. I share definitions by the way with guests before we speak. So, predictable is a commonly held opinion by lots of people.

Progressive is a forward-thinking opinion that possibly expands predictable understanding and polarising. It's an opinion that's more extreme in relation to predictable thoughts on the topic, and probably goes beyond progressive ideas. These opinions might also elicit strong response. Bear these definitions in mind as you hear which P guests choose.

Tell me, when we look at the P that fits me, would you choose were you predictable, progressive or polarising? I said that it was polarising, it's a polarising opinion because I think I'm now so old fashioned that I'm counter-cultural. When I say that I raise my key on a sailboat and tell people what they were allowed or not allowed to do, they're usually shocked. We did a whole year without screens, for example, which is just shocking in this day and age.

While people in our, we might kind of look around us, employers might look around and say, they're having a hard time finding good employees who know how to come to work on time and get a job done. Or they're spoiled and they ask for things they shouldn't ask for. I think people might look around and agree that we're collectively molly coddling our kids. The alternative parenting styles that might prevent it might seem like a step backwards.

I think that is what they find shocking. They might agree with me, yes, we're molly coddling our kids, but if I start telling them what they should do not to do it, that part would be polarising. I put it to Aussie. In terms of the P that fits me, which P does fit?

Which P fits me? Yeah, for you. I believe I selected the polarising. Polarising, yeah.

Yeah. I was in between progressive and polarising. What's one of the words polarising then? I guess it's my strong opinions, strong need to do things differently, which causes friction sometimes.

Part of me thinks, well, I'm progressive because I raise my kids differently and I do my, I believe I do my research and I'm thoughtful about what I'm doing. So in that sense, I'm progressive. I'm like doing good things, but then actually maybe I'm a bit polarising because I almost lead the way and that can create friction or can create misunderstanding. People don't understand, right?

Two out of three guests hold polarising views. I can't wait to see what Nicola says. What's the chances she'll be polarising to? Ah, I think low, I'd have thought.

Do you believe your opinion is predictable, progressable, polarising, Nicola? So I thought I was polarising because I'm contrary to myself in my opinions. One instant, you know, I don't molly coddle, but then 10, 15 years later, I am a molly coddle. So I kind of polarised myself.

Brilliant. That makes sense. Yeah, because, yeah, you're polarising within your own life. But yeah, totally.

And it's like, how's that happened? As long as it's neat up its knee, isn't it about what do other people think of your opinion? No, well, God knows. You know, that could be anything, couldn't it?

But actually what do you think? And it's like you polarised. You cut across the extreme. Yeah, totally.

We have a hat trick. A polarising trio of guests. Did I know this was coming when I chose these guests? Not at all.

Nicola, Tanya and Rosie all mentioned their childhood and compared how they're raising their kids in similar or different ways to how they were raised. It's Rosie. And why living by previous standards wouldn't feel right for her. I look back in time and how I've grown up, how I've grown up with my family, for example, my parents, my grandparents or how other people grow up.

And obviously we don't live like how we used to, you know, compared to 20 years ago, 30 years ago, the world has changed. If we were to live by the standards of our parents or grandparents, people wouldn't feel right in today's world. So I guess like when I'm thinking about who standards are we measuring by, it's like I'm creating my own standards. And I have, I feel like I have every right to do that.

And I enjoy doing it. And I guess the more the world moves on in the current state is, yeah, I guess it's wild out there. And we're able to be more independent as human beings. So if we're talking about molly cuddling by who standards, I'm going to go with my standards and create my own.

Basically, it's how I'm thinking and I'm going to, as much as possible, be aware of other standards or, you know, stuff like that. But like, very much, you know, I care about what I think and how I feel as a human being. How were you based in terms of molly cuddling? Oh, good question.

Yeah, how was I raised? I guess like I was relatively free, maybe too free. I guess my parents were quite hands off, but they always tried to give me the best that they could. And the best that they could was, I guess, was varied.

It was very different stages of my life, just because of life situations, health issues, job issues, all of that. So, you know, I don't think I was molly coddled in that sense, but they definitely kind of prioritized us as the kids over themselves, I would say. But I don't think I was talking about molly coddled. I had a lot of freedom and that I think was a good thing.

Yeah, it's interesting. I had a lot of privileges, but I also just, I guess, as I got older, I had less privilege because of our life situation. So I kind of like just had to get on with stuff and it was fine to be honest. It's just like, I'm getting on and doing my own thing.

And I think like, as a result, I left on when I was 18, because I was like, well, I need to go do what I need to do. I traveled, I was across the world on my own and just made my own way. So yeah, I guess that's, you know, if we're looking back at my life, that's kind of like, my situation is like, I never expected them to provide for me. And that's, I guess, like, that's made me who I am.

That's made me strong, I guess, as I reflect on it. I do reflect on the fact that I'm grateful for that, but at the same time, life could have been so much easier. If, if, I would say it was molly coddled, but if they had like planned, they more had more, you know, like a bit of forward planning, but I also appreciate it in life. You can't always do that.

What do you mean by planning? We moved around a lot, which I would call my mum, Barry ADHD like, now that we have words for it. And now that I know more about myself, I'm definitely a person that likes more strong. So, you know, like we moved around a lot as a family because it's hard, like, moving around and starting, essentially over again, time again, new friends, new school or new, whatever it is, it's a lot to manage.

How does that relate to Molly coddling? Do you think that mobile hard, hard, starting to gain life as a child? It's, you know, the constant moving, I guess, is like, how can you focus on the child when he comes to moving around and constantly have all these things to manage and money, money worries as well, often come into it. And I guess like, when I was setting up my life, I always wanted to be the officer that I'm staying in one place.

I don't want to move around. I don't want to start again. It's exhausting for me. And I want to be able to have a life where I can give that structure to my kids or give that foundation that place.

Yeah, so it's interesting you swung the other way and made a pact with yourself to provide that static foundation for the kids, for yourself, but also for the kids. Rosie left home early to make her way to do what she needed to do and to settle in one place. My mom tried to Molly coddle me, but I think we busted heads because I was so independent on what to be grown up far too early. I'm out left home at 16.

But then because of the things I was doing, she really overcompensated really over three. They couldn't do anything. I think they were quite happy. They were totally different to me.

Whereas I was out in the world doing what I wanted to do. They were quite happy being at home and my mommy and daddy looking after them. So, you refused. I refused.

I was a big grown up girl and I knew everything by 12, obviously not. And I just saw my mom when she was being a bit over there and as being over there. So she was trained to protect me from the big world. I thought I knew and I didn't.

Even now, Nicola doesn't want to be Molly coddled. She says this about one of her siblings. My younger sister, it's not a nice thing to say, but she's went behind the ears. She's 33, only just passed a test.

If her husband's out of town working away, she has to beat my mum and dad's because she just can't cope with life. And it's like, grow some love. She is a baby, the family. I've been pampered to every whim.

I just couldn't be like that. What was it that made you want to escape that protection? Obviously didn't understand it for a start. But what was it compared with your siblings?

So, I was just so independent and I felt like I was being suffocated and everything I wanted to do. I was very daring. I want to think of consequences. If I wanted to do something, I'd just go do it.

My mum is totally proly opposite to me. She worries about everything. I mean, walking to the shop, you might get killed apparently, which you can, but you don't have to worry about that, do you? 12.

So, I was always sneaking off to Manchester City Centre. I'd go down to the bottom of the street, jump on a bus on a Saturday and have a great Saturday afternoon. In Manchester, about my parents knowing, then I'd get in trouble on return. And I couldn't see now.

I was fine. I got to Manchester. I had my phone. I'm home safe.

What's the problem? Obviously, as an adult now, I can't see that being a problem. I would have particularly liked it the boys sneaking off. Me and my mum were terrible.

As a little girl, I was fine at all hunky-dory. I was a little princess. And then as I got to teenager and I changed, oh, we had many arguments. I was grounded.

I can't remember how many times. Yeah, yeah, many arguments. Door slamming. I hate you thrown around quite frequently.

Screamed into the pillar. That was OK, though. I was that his little princess. So, Dad, he used to do nice things together.

We had a very similar personality. We could have a laugh, have a giggle. He respected my views. Whereas mum didn't.

She was clear. I cut. He was I say. And there was no room for an opinion.

That would ask me to do things where I was mama telling me. So, can I be in headstrong? If someone asks me, I'll try and do is they ask? But if you tell me to do something, I'll do the opposite usually.

I asked Tanya if she was Molly Kordold. You probably know the answer she gave me. Yeah, not Molly Kordold. Not at all.

My parents were pretty old-fashioned. And I would say they would probably be in the authoritarian parenting style. Definitely not the permissive parenting style. I'm a product of the 70s and 80s.

And so I think parenting kind of went in two directions as it does now. Probably we just renamed things every few years. Like there was the Doctor Spock book that came out and a lot of parents adopted the permissive parenting style. My parents had been raised in religious homes.

And so, you know, they were the if you spare the rod, you'll spoil the child's kind of parents. And so the expectations were very high. Although they themselves, I think, came from really difficult homes. Breaking generational patterns is something we talk a lot about these days.

Maybe it's hard to believe, but this hasn't always been seen as possible. So what I didn't like growing up was that my parents could say, because I said so. Like I hated it because I said so. Now I've used it on occasion, but only, you know, in extreme circumstances, I also hated that my dad said do as I say, not as I do.

Which just sounds like hypocrisy to me and felt a lot like hypocrisy. I now see that he was saying, I have screwed up and I don't want you to repeat my failures. Like I can hear as a parent now what he was trying to say at the time. I just thought like, well, then set a good example and then you won't have to say that.

So I actually didn't like the way that they disciplined, but I appreciated that they set the high standard. So I wanted to set the high standard with, you know, without the hypocrisy and without the silence, there was a lot of discipline and anger when I was a kid. So we've definitely improved on that. But I came from a place of high expectations, the expectation of obedience and risk and reward punishment and reward really.

I prefer the word correction in my own family, but there was definitely punishment reward in the family I came from. And so I kind of go in the other extreme. I do expect immediate obedience. Certainly when the kids are younger, as they hit the teenage years, you know, we're moving into a more equitable relationship.

So obviously the relationship changes and you're not threatening to spank, you know, 12 year old. If you have to spank a 12 year old, you did something wrong when they were to. So the relationships shifts, but when they're little, we said obey first ask questions later. We never said obey without asking questions.

I'll say this. There's been improvement in every generation. I would still call my core family pretty dysfunctional, whereas the family that I created is functional. I hope you'll join me in episode two.

I mean, here these three parents get up on their high horse on what they think about Molly Coddle kids. Here's last words from Rosie, Nicola, and Tanya. My education choices is very much about Molly Coddle. You know, you're not being hard enough on your kids.

You're not working hard enough. You're not pushing hard enough. And that's all related to Molly Coddle. This is a good example.

I was getting very stressed out. I had two months of invoices. I need to import and the computer wasn't doing what it should have been doing. So I'd have meltdown.

I cried, had a tantrum, went to the back garden and on the patio, obviously the dog had been to the toilet, where usually I would clear that up, just get on with it. I shouted upstairs and I went, can someone please help me? The dogs appeared in the garden? And because I was having this tantrum, Ben straightaway rundown and he did it, whereas normally I'd kind of be ignored unless I did have that paddy.

While we were not permissive and we were not authoritarian, the parenting style that sort of falls in the middle is authoritative. We've been on this planet a lot longer than our kids have. We feel that we have a gift to give them, that can steer them in the right direction, that we've made a lot of mistakes, that we can help them from repeating. And we have this authority.

We're perfectly comfortable stepping into our authority as their parents. But we also are not on a pedestal. We are also human and we make mistakes and we need grace and we offer our kids grace. So I think that's where maybe I would love to think that I've improved on the childhood that I had because we have an open relationship with our kids where we're able to talk.

It's not the old generation of you should be seen and not heard. It's definitely we want to hear from our kids, but after they will be this. Thanks for listening to this episode of Parents Who Think. If you'd like to react in some way to something you heard, I encourage you to join the Parents Who Think sub-stack community or on our YouTube page, funnily enough, called Parents Who Think.

This is the Parents Who Think debate show. Today is episode two of our Are We Creating Molly Colle Kids Debate? I'm Danisha. Danisha Melina Devon.

And if you're new to parents who think you could go back an episode and hear the start. If you do, you'll get to know guests and understand the dynamics of PWT debates. You'll also hear my three guests briefly share their life stories, sum up their views in six words, and discuss whether they consider their opinions, predictable, progressive or polarizing. But here's the thing, you don't need to do this.

Together just, let me help you. All my guests think their opinions are polarizing. That's right. We have a trio of parents with super strong opinions.

Just what we love. Nicola is a live wire with two older sons who she didn't molly coddle and two younger sons she coddles. Her mother tried to molly coddle her, but she wasn't up for it, running away from home to Spain as 16 years old. She runs her own business and says she does everything for everyone, especially at home.

But it never used to be that way. Rosie is all about questioning the status quo whether that's home educating her five kids or defining standards on her own terms. She's an entrepreneur who builds communities, thoughtfully. She wasn't molly coddled and found moving homes as a child, hard.

Leaving home at 18 to cross the world, she knew she wanted to settle in one place to give herself. And later, her family of five kids, the stability she would have liked. She identifies as a molly coddler, but not in the micromanaging helicopter kind of ways. Atania designed an adventuring life with her husband, for herself, and for her children, her five children.

You'll hear her describe how living on a boat shaped the way she raised her older ones as well as the remaining kids at home. She's certain we're creating weak children, so molly coddling is something she's against. She was raised with authoritarian parents in an environment in which punishment and reward was deployed, sometimes in anger. She wanted different for her family, and she's making it so.

Oh, and I dish the debt on where I'm coming from too. I share a bit about my own childhood and whether I was molly coddled. I talked about Longworx home miles across Bleak-Dartmore, and how my parents made me do that. Whatever the weather.

No tiny violins in the background, as I speak. My mother and father molly coddled me only as much as their own histories and resources allowed them to. It's exposing to tell our origin stories and our truths. It's the same for debate guests and for me.

And that's why it needs to be done. Not because we like wanging on about ourselves, but because knowing how other parents think, and how they experience things is good. It's nourishing. It helps us find more of who we are.

We need to hear different perspectives. Now first, a quick recap from Nicola, Tanya and Rosie with a smidge of me. Then we'll get guests, get into the core debate and get up on your high horse segment. This is debate done different.

Let's see how. We are definitely molly coddling our kids. I think due to me being older, I'm definitely molly coddling my children, because I want to protect them from the big bad world. So you are molly coddling.

I am now. I never used to. With my eldest, definitely not. My two young girls, I do.

I think people might look around and agree that we're collectively molly coddling our kids. The alternative parenting styles that might prevent it might seem like a step backwards. I think that is what they find shocking. They might agree with me.

Yes, we're molly coddling our kids. But if I start telling them what they should do not to do it, that part would be polarizing. The world has changed. If we were to live by the standards of our parents or grandparents, it wouldn't feel right in today's world.

So I guess like when I'm thinking about who standards are we measuring by, I'm creating my own standards. When debate won, we talked about molly coddling as if we share understanding of what this is. Each PWT guest in this debate said their opinion is polarizing. But maybe they're not comparing like the like molly coddling.

Take a moment. What do you think molly coddling is? Is it parents who do everything for their kids right up to when they say 40? Those parents who wait hand and foot on their kids like their offspring or little princes and princesses?

And is it parents who won't have a negative word said about their child because they're overprotective and blinkered about their kids? It's this and more or different. In the Oxford dictionary, molly coddling is defined as treating someone in an indulgent or overprotective way. Here's my guest's words on what it is to them.

You had to put what molly coddling is into a few words. What do you think? I guess in my head without jumping to Google, quickly, simply behind the scenes. It would be funny, wouldn't it?

She said quickly doing it. I'm not a girl. I'm just typing away. I'm like, what molly coddling?

It may be too soft, too easy when your kids... I guess I struggle with specific definitions, but being too easy on them and not giving them the experiences of life that they need to become adults or well-balanced, independent adults. As she defines molly coddling, Rosie names what her goal of parenting is. Well-balanced, independent adults.

Let's see how Nicola defines molly coddling. Will it be different? I would say it is pampering to someone's needs and whims of cubby overbearing. They might actually enjoy it.

It's going beyond that nurture in a bit and just doing perhaps more than what is necessary. It's time you take. You always get your own way and then you're disappointed or angry when you don't get what you want. If you were molly coddled, where we would use in America is spoiled.

If you're a spoiled brat, then you always get what you want and you put up a fuss if you can't have what you want. You make other people miserable because you didn't get what you wanted. One aspect of molly coddling might be that you give your kids too much freedom, but they don't have the responsibility to handle it. They haven't learned the skills.

They haven't earned it. Yeah, I've earned it. Yeah, I've earned it. So, yeah.

Letting kids get their own way being too easy, giving too much freedom and pampering them. Oh, then there's being overbearing going beyond nurturing. Without too much digging, guests seem to agree on what they mean by molly coddling. Rather than defining what I think is a parenting failure, a generation of weak, emotionally immature, anxious, shallow, independent kids, maybe it would be helpful to define the goal of parenting in positive terms.

No holding back. Let's do that, Tanya. Have my notes with me. Yes.

Strong, resilient, goal-oriented, capable, independent, mature adults who can solve problems in the real world and then pass the torch on to their kids. My mother-in-law said that you know you're an adult when you get into trouble and don't call your parents to get out of it. And to be emotionally mature is to have control of one's feelings instead of being overwhelmed or controlled by them. Mature people have tools for dealing with personal problems so they can heal and experience self-improvement and good relationships and have strength, logic, and creativity to deal with problems in the real world.

So my goal would be to raise, we shortened it to DHP, decent human beings. I mean, I would really like excellent human beings, but I told my kids I would settle for a decent. Rosie talks about well-balanced adults. Tanya's version is decent human beings.

What does well-balanced mean? What does being a decent human being involve? I'll make sure we find out. I had to ask Nicola about the way she's raised her four boys.

Molly coddling had two teenagers, but for her older ones in their 20s, zero, Molly coddling. Why does this matter? Because her goal in parenting must have changed. So what's really fascinating is that for you, the first two weren't Molly coddled and the second two.

Oh, you've changed your behaviour. I've contradicted myself. Obviously I've grown up massively. I've had two.

And with the two younger ones, I was on my own raising them doing midwifery. I didn't have a car, so I was public transport, so everything was just doing, doing, doing, doing, doing, 100 miles per hour. Even though now I've got my businesses, I'm still busy, busy, busy. I'm definitely more laid back and chilled and settled in my life and me as a person.

I know who I am. It sounds like maturing or finding out who you are. You couldn't be older than you were. You were creating who you were alongside raising the boys.

Exactly, yeah. I was a child having children and trying to find out who I was was trying to be the best mum I could be, trying to get my degree, trying to make the bills at that time. I know it was all hard back then, whereas now I'm in a happy marriage. I've got a nice home.

I've got this got that. And everything just goes along now, so I've not got them external factors that I had when I was 19. Nicola was a young mum, trying to make everything work back then with her first two sons. Did tough circumstances like studying and paying bills mean she wasn't thinking through what kind of adults she was shaping her older boys into?

The idea that we consciously consider the outcomes for our parenting rests on the assumption we've time, energy and interest in future shaping our kids. Many people get through just hoping for the best outcomes. That includes codlers and those who don't molly coddle. God forbid that my two older boys, I know they're prepared for the world and they're street-wise, they're savvy because of the way I didn't molly coddle them.

Whereas my two younger ones, I am absolutely dredging when they say, oh, I want to go maybe to a city to have a night out in the roller because we're in this little perfect quaint village with a stream and the brook. They go to a boys' school and they've definitely had different upbringing to my two older ones. And I can't see them being street-savvy whatsoever because I've just tried to put them in this nice perfect little bubble or try and make everything just right for them. Not that the two elder ones went without anything, they had what they needed.

Again, mum and dad did play big part in helping me out with them too. But the two older ones definitely think I'm making better spoils. They have more, but more in, we never went to Caribbean when Cameron owned me, it was New York, you know, Mikey and Ben, they go all over. But that's also because I've grown up, I want more.

And Cameron can now allow me to go to them places. Why should I cut my nose off to spite my face if I want to go there? I'm going to go and they have to come with me. That's it, they come along at a different timeline and it's lucky for them, it's all more comfortable.

Rosie puts more meat on the bones of her parenting goals. I want a good relationship with all my kids. I want them to grow to be as healthy and independent as possible. But the past we get in there, it's going to look different.

You know, we can feel guilty about that as parents or we can accept it and just say, well, he means it's really different. So if we go back to like, who standards are we measuring by? If our kids were at school, they would all be under the same standards. Everyone pretty much gets the same word.

It's hard if you have a disability to get different treatment, you can, but they still make it hard. And it's tough. I think it's tough. I want to pick up on something very quickly.

You said that don't we all want to have independent children. I'm wondering if that is actually the case Rosie with everyone, is what I mean, with all parents. Well, exactly so by who standards are we measuring by? To me, that's what plays in my head constantly is that I want my kids to be independent.

I want them to find their way in life. And that's kind of like an overarching goal of mine that I look for. When you have kids who are neurodiverse and have struggles with life, that's a very valid thing to be working for. It's challenging, right?

Because like every parent will have their own views of what their children should grow up to be. And perhaps as a result, they get molly cuddled because they're trying to make the path as easy as possible to help them get into university or to help them find the path that they need to go on. Whereas for me, that's not, of course, I say, I'm my radar that I want them to do well in life. I don't have goals for them to go to university.

I have goals for them to be comfortable in their own skin and to be able to get on in life. I guess that's a slightly different perspective than some people might have. But I also think the world is changing again and we're creating our own standards as parents and we're trying to create standards for our kids and we're trying to help our kids see they can create the world. Raising neurodiverse kids puts a whole new slant on things.

How do those of us with neurodiverse children define and need to redefine what molly cuddling is in this neurotypical world? Being comfortable in their own skin and to be able to get on in life. I hear Raising saying she's helping her kids see how they can and must create worlds that work for them. It's Tanya on decent human beings.

And there were definitely my opinions about what makes you a decent human being or not a decent human being, but they all knew what the expectation was. And I allowed them to have an amazing childhood. I'm not like a dictator where I'm like, okay, we're practicing for adulthood now. And you know, you pop out of the woman, we're going to start adulthood training.

Although childhood is the period of time in your life where you're learning what it means to be an adult and what it means to be a human being in the world, there's a fair amount of play that needs to go into that. And I didn't like rob them of a childhood in order to teach them how to be adults, but they're watching everything that we do, everything that we say, how we work, how we play as they're growing up. And my kids knew what the goal was. Tell me a bit more about decent.

I am above and beyond proud of a kid who has good character and good character is defined by when you do what's right, even when no one is watching. When you do what's right, even when everyone else is doing the wrong thing. So I really, I really want our kids to grow up with good character and that would definitely make you a decent human being. I mean, other things too, like a decent human being doesn't slurp their soup and burp at the table.

They exhibit proper table manners. Now, where we dip tutorial about the table manners, not at all, but there were some basic table rules, things like that. I mean, common courtesy, which is not that common anymore. We're starting to call it uncommon courtesy.

My kids are always complimented on being exceedingly polite. It's because I told them that please, thank you, and I'm sorry, are keys that open all the doors in the world. And so far that they've found that to be true. So a decent human being is polite and hardworking and has good character and does the right thing even when no one is watching.

And is also compassionate to others and doesn't participate in bullying when bullying is happening. They come to the defense of a weaker person. I mean, you know, I could go on and on. We keep varying into differences among our kids, as well as the way we parent them.

Each of my guests talk about this. So you parent differently with each child because of birth order, because you're growing and changing, because each kid's personality is different. We deal with them as individuals and they know that. Tanya mentions personalities.

Nicola talks about timelines and resources. Here's Rosie. And I guess like, you know, without getting too distracted is that that could be different for each child or each person. If I were to consider the diversity that each child or human needs, I don't think we should kind of look at it as a one fits all kind of scenario.

Does that mean to say that you would have different standards for different children around Molly coddling? Because you've got five. So do you have different standards of Molly coddling? I think I probably do.

I think I'd be lying if I don't. I think overall we have general standards that we want the best of our kids and we want the kids to be independent as quickly as possible. How that actually happens looks different for each child. It's hard when you've got five kids, right?

And you have to almost treat them differently sometimes. And sometimes the kids don't see that. Or if you don't communicate the reasoning behind things and it can easily cause friction between the kids, you know, kind of like if they see that someone's getting preference over another or someone gets more than the other. And they don't have to understand why then it can cause a friction.

Yeah, so I don't know if it's different for each child, but I definitely treat them differently according to their needs. But my goal is the same. I need to hear examples of different treatment to understand how Molly coddling plays out or not. Listen to this one.

So a great example from this morning. The baby, Ben, he's in his room having a lovely sleep. So I'm doing all my cleaning. I go into room and I find plates.

Now, is that allowed plates? But it's plates in his room upstairs. So rather than tell him off, which I usually would do with the old ones having plates upstairs, I wake him up in a nice manner, tickly's back, telling his rooms a bit of a mess and he needs to address it in his plates. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

My mom can't get to it. I walks out the room and now a later he's still in his pit. The plates are still there and they're now irritating me. But instead of telling him off, I just take the plates downstairs and put them in the dishwasher myself.

So yeah, he gets away with murder. Then is the team in that respect. I'm Molly Coddleam. Obviously they've got the mobile phones.

If they do leave the house, I want the mobile phones on. So I can track them wherever they are. They can get into it through me. I'm constantly stopping with the young going definitely.