Welcome to Cybersecurity Insights, the podcast for the CyberEd.io learning community. Our goal is to bring Cybersecurity practitioners, the latest and most relevant education and training to upskill and dive deeper into topics that matter in today's modern Cybersecurity world. Good day, everyone. This is Steve King.
I'm the managing director at CyberEd.io. And with us today on our podcast is Alistair Faulkner, who is the co-founder and CEO of a security and fraud prevention startup called Verwinium, and was the co-founder and former chief product officer of Threat Metrics, later acquired by Alexis Nexis, who risks solutions for all a bunch of money. Alistair is based in Sydney, Australia, and has more than a couple of decades of experience in the cybersecurity space, very much focusing on financial fraud, analysis, and prevention. Verwinium, services large B2C organizations and marketplaces, dedicated payments providers, e-commerce shops, banks, and FinTechs in an era of really increasing fraud.
And I want to emphasize that. I've never seen it like this before. So I've got a few questions. Why don't we just jump in, Alistair, if that's okay with you?
Yeah, great to meet you today, Steve. Okay, so there are a lot of cash transfer applications around, like Venmo and Cash App and PayPal and so forth. They've become active channels for frauders to scam thousands and hundreds of thousands of dollars. And the US Fed is preparing to launch a thing called FedNow this month, I think.
And since it's so terribly unregulated space, doesn't it come with a lot of security risk? Yeah, absolutely. The experience that we've seen in other markets where faster payments has been introduced, such as the UK and Australia, for example, faster payments became the go-to way that scams defaulted to. So, both in Australia and the UK, the largest form of total losses, so the majority of all losses were due to on the faster payments rail, which is kind of staggering.
And there's multiple reasons for that, I mean, the most obvious being that the faster you can get money out of an institution, obviously, the less time they have to implement fraud checks they might do, or might done previously. And then also the game has changed in terms of, rather than process moving to synthetic identities and selling credentials, which is obviously part of the remit, part of the game plan, it's mostly become about how do you engineer the end user, how do you scam them effectively, into doing something against their will, or against their needs. So, for example, romance scams, crypto scams, any number of scams that are proliferating out there in order to extract money from good customers. Yeah, I've used some of these apps before.
What can you describe, you know, kind of characterizes a conventional hack? I mean, how would... I mean, traditionally, what happens, what we've been experiencing by and large, till now has been processed using some kind of stolen identity, or perhaps getting access to the customer's account, either using malware, something that's running on a machine, maybe someone's called them up and said, hey, where your telco service, we need to install something on your machine, those types of scams are using the dark web to look for stolen passwords and accounts for bank accounts. So, illegitimate users using either illegitimate identity, synthetic or stolen, to create accounts, which they then use to send money to those accounts and then use those accounts as mules.
There's one attack back to the other, it's taking out legitimate users' accounts and then using that for fraud. So, what happens with fast payments and as banks have implemented stronger two-factor authentication, essentially, what scammers have figured out is that rather than trying to use these stolen identities, let's just go for the victims themselves. And so, it's more about social engineering attacks has been the biggest issue, targeting vulnerable parts of the population. Interestingly enough, when it comes to these scams, particularly those that are put on on fast payments or rails, there tends to be a bell curve trading towards the millennials or the digital natives, perhaps because they're younger, less experienced, maybe more naive.
And then on the other side of the bell curve, you tend to have retirees or older folks who might be more susceptible to two scams. Yeah, it's almost an oxymoron, right? I mean, digital native is more naive, you would think that the digital native would be tougher, not the crack because there would be privy to kind of what goes on. I mean, if you're not digitally literate in this day and age, then, you know, you probably shouldn't be.
Yeah, no, it was the challenge. Yeah, it is interesting. It's kind of surprising. It makes sense from the perspective that there are certain schemes that can appeal to the younger population that may, you know, for example, crypto scams or, you know, get money rich, or they might be digitally native, but they're not financially or, you know, scam native in the sense that, you know, they haven't grown up.
Yeah, obviously, that makes sense, sure. You know, I'm thinking about, you know, if I'm not, I think that Zell is a, if you log in through, what I'm trying to say, if you log in through your B of A account or your Wells Fargo or whatever you account and you go to your Zell app, that actually presents itself then as a separate app and you actually leave the Wells or B of A site. Is that not the case? I think, don't you, aren't you then interacting directly with Zell?
The underlying, like the challenge that you'll have, or any of these applications have, and the challenge that FedNow will have, is that while it's providing the payments rails, a lot of the actual authentication intelligence will still be up to the banks and there are, you know, on the FedNow website saying in 2024, you know, some additional security controls will be put in place, but they're actually, they're actually going to be limited by the fact by the amount of intelligence that you're able to share between FedNow and the banks and the underlying consumer. So it's a big challenge when, let's say, for example, PayPal, right, PayPal has no patience, saying money has been doing for a long, long time, you know, has, you know, like any payment systems has had challenges with fraud, but the advantage that something like PayPal has is that they control the entire user experience from onboarding within the application, you know, any of the identity intelligence fraud controls can be tightly coupled to the payment. Any time when you have a bifurcation between, you know, who does the verification authentication of the consumer and the authorization, and if that's separate from the actual payments that are actually being monitored, it can be a real challenge in using that just within the credit card, you know, system where, you know, having even channels between merchants and issuers to resolve a fraud has been, you know, an ongoing challenge. It has been getting better, but we've had the credit card, you know, online e-commerce payments for over a couple of decades, and, you know, we still see the fraud is a major challenge, and this is only just going to be exacerbated with a FedNow faster payment system.
I don't think to say anything particular about FedNow is just essentially another system that frauds will quickly figure out where the gaps in the chain of armor, if you like, between the bank and the FedNow and the consumer breakdown. Yeah, and it's kind of where I was going with that. I thought, you know, PayPal is a great example, as you said, of a self-contained. I mean, once you're, you know, there's no verification there at all.
My experience with Zell and Wells has, you know, pretty much presented that, and I've often thought, well, gosh, you know, I suddenly felt not quite as secure once I was in the Zell app, but nonetheless. FedNow, some folks think that's kind of a camouflage institutionalized step toward a central bank, you know, digital currency. What, you're right in the heart of this stuff? Where do folks come down on whether authorities can be trusted to, you know, strike the right balance between protecting privacy and fighting illicit activity?
Yeah, it's a delicate balance. Ultimately, you know, it's the consumer, in theory, can vote with their wallet. Now we know that switching banks and those sorts of things can be, you know, can be challenging for many, but if they don't get the balance right then, you know, they can't really be competitive now. It's today, you know, many of these banks are regulated to make sure that they are doing, you know, following the right procedures when it comes to things like anti-money laundering, know your customer, et cetera.
So, you know, FedNow doesn't introduce or take any of that away, but it's really about understanding what are the loopholes that something like faster payments, and it really comes down to the implementation, you know, whether loopholes that can be exploited and at a scale that they haven't been able to previously based on, you know, the current infrastructure. And so, FedNow, it's just a challenge, even just from a bank, a bank's perspective of integrating kind of another, another, another payments array also, you know, they've got checks, they've got, you know, credit card transactions, you know, your typical ideation in ZEL, and now you've got just another, another piece. And even when FedNow introduces some more security controls, it'll still be up to the banks to take a holistic view of that payments and risk, and I'll give you an example. So, you know, one thing that I should be looking for is the breaks between the visibility gap there.
So, for example, if we're also might be getting illicit funds from somewhere and getting convincing someone to do a deposit, you know, via a check into an account before using the faster payments round to quickly disperse that for your bottom gains, in terms of the, in that sense, the FedNow won't have any idea, natively, that, you know, there's been some unusual deposit behavior for this account, perhaps, you know, they're a senior or what, I don't know, maybe they're a millennial, they've got a large deposit amount has come in that's been, you know, unusual for this, both this account and perhaps this account profile, and some, then some unusual, you know, disbursement to perhaps accounts that haven't been seen before, haven't been, you know, transacted with by this user and so those types of holistic view of this account hold and needs to be taken into place, and FedNow, you know, itself isn't going to be able to combat that kind of scam alone. So, the banks, my understanding is that FedNow will be part of or operated by the Federal Reserve, and then each bank will be like a participating member or, and then so if I'm at, you know, city bank, for example, and I've got, you know, $20,000 in the bank and that gets converted to digital currency, if I want to spend 5,000 of that, who has the, who has the determination over whether what I'm spending that $5,000 on is okay or not? That is an excellent, excellent question, and the answer, unfortunately, is complicated in the sense that even, you know, so one of the advantages of FedNow or if you have a system where it can analyze transactions in aggregate, means that, you know, you do get some insight into anomalous transaction patterns that each individual bank would not be able to detect, right, it stands, it stands to reason, but the challenge is that the banks have intelligence that FedNow have, as the FedNow has intelligence, that the banks don't have. So, for example, a receiving bank might know, through its own fraud detection, perhaps it's monitoring a neural network or something like that, and it might know within its own fraud detection systems that, let's say, 20 unrelated accounts are all operated by the same computer, the same device, right?
So, it might have some of this insight in its banking fraud detection systems. Now, someone who's standing that money in FedNow has no idea, because let's say that the FedNow has no idea this device or, you know, these accounts are related, you know, it's only seen the transaction data, so it doesn't have the benefit the bank has, knowing that, you know, a single device, obviously, it frauds that they're monitoring its control of these accounts. Now, the risk of some of you standing this account doesn't have that intelligence. Now, if you had broader intelligence sharing, there are ways that you can, you know, share intelligence anonymously, obviously, that's how a lot of these systems need to be built in modern day era.
None of the parties have the whole kind of picture of the elephant, if you like. So, it is very, very problematic and challenging for banks, and that's one of the reasons why in the UK and Australia, why scams have just, you know, effectively been unstoppable, essentially. And from my point of view, as far as the Federal Reserve's concern, that's not regulated, there's no oversight, isn't that true? Well, it's, whether it is or it isn't, I think there would be, there's plenty of healthy discourse that needs to be had about where liability lies, you know, in a credit card transaction, you know, the schemes have figured that out.
If it's an online transaction, a merchant is liable, let's say, someone's using a stolen credit card. If it's an in-store transaction, the bank is liable. Now, what's happened in the UK is just because scams have just gotten so out of control enabled by the fast, fast payments rails, not caused by, but enabled by, you know, the fast payments rails, that it's, it's become a hard problem, a hard problem for banks to address in of themselves, and it's hard for them to get the necessary capital and internal momentum without, it's proven to date in these environments without some regular, regulatory oversight. And so that's what they're moving to there is, when you're sending money, the receiving bank is as equally liable as the sending bank when it comes to recovering stolen money or scams, scams to money.
So in the US, which tends to be very biased towards anti, anti-regulation, it behooves banks to get in early to ensure that the public has confidence that there are appropriate protections and controls in place holistically, you know, regulate their customers. So you would think, you know, if you're a customer of Bank of America, surely Bank of America, you know, receiving money from a customer from Bank of America, Bank of America, you know, should have full protection controls in place. Therefore, you know, should be out of, should be out of process transaction. The challenges with these scams is that you're dealing with individual consumers and, you know, often these consumers themselves are so embroiled in these scams, you know, which can be very convincing and with the advent of AI going to get even more convincing.
It becomes even more of a challenge because normally if you're investigating, let's say unusual activity, you know, you might call that person to verify that that consumer, hey, you know, we see you want to send money to a crypto scam account, you know, you've, you know, you're in retirement, you know, the average amount of money you spend in a month is $3,000, you know, $3,000. Why are you sending it to this crypto exchange, you know, that we've had some challenges within the past. You know, when you call that a consumer who's in broad in a scam, they will, you know, absolutely try and convince you why this is a, you know, a legitimate request, why, you know, this needs to be done and, you know, following whatever plain book or script that scammers have been given. So it's, it's a real pernicious problem.
And, you know, so, and companies like PayPal have it hard enough, but when you buy further cake, the authorization authentication and fraud intelligence from the actual payments, right, right. That's when you, that's when you can introduce, you know, vulnerabilities that scammers and forces are quickly able to exploit. Yeah, it's all very interesting. You know, it's, it feels the more you talk the further away from, you know, centralized digital, you know, whatever you want to call a banking system that we, it seems that we are in the public trust.
That's a really hard nut to crack, especially under the circumstances, you know, we saw in the COVID relief program where we gave, I think, over a half a trillion dollars away based on, you know, little or no verification on the PPP program. And then, you know, the COVID disaster relief program and then, you know, how, how, I mean, the prevention issues there are not going to go away with you when you have a digital program, but I guess my question is the point that you raised. How do folks have any confidence at all that they're going to be able to sort of do whatever they want with their own money. That point you made about looking into a transaction and because it's out of, you know, it's out of a, it's a novelistic behavior, right, it's that you haven't done that before.
And so now somebody wants to know why you did that and you're trying to explain to them and they don't like that answer. It's a slippery slope. Is it not toward, you know, the ultimate sort of use China as an example of the whole social credit rating determinations that come out of the way you spend your money. Yeah, I mean, I think I'm less on that side of this conspiracy theory side.
I mean, I think it's, you know, all the technology and look, the US, it should be embarrassed that it does not have the facility for you to send money instantly, you know, and it should be embarrassed that they hold consumers deposits, you know, and basically make money off the time it takes for you to, you know, clear, clear a check, you know, they should be embarrasses, you know, one of the world's leading powers. Don't disagree with that at all. No, you're right. From a technology perspective.
And so, you know, the concept should be, you know, how do we, you know, it's very, it's similar to the AI one, you know, which is, you know, there's a good piece of technology. We just have, we make, you know, it's hard to, you can't put technology back in a box. Once it's out there, you know, it'll either be used by adversaries against you, you know, so you need, or, or, you know, you can put the right rail around the place on the palm to make sure that consumers can benefit from it, profitably, and not criminals. And I think it's that last point which people have question marks about is, you know, when the Fed now says, you know, we're going to release.
A broad, you know, additional security measures in 2024. I mean, the reality is that you cannot, you cannot one kind of exist without that unless you have trust, safety and consumer confidence, you know, that cannot. That cannot exist separate from the underlying the underlying scheme and has to be thought through it has to be very clear about where the liabilities exist. And we already know the battles that are already going to come and the conversations that you know going to come and that's going to be around regulating, you know, where liability for scams.
who's responsible? That's the other part of the conversation. I got scammed. It seemed legit to me.
I used the banking app, as I was told to. I paid them via this method that I thought was provided to me by my bank. Now I've basically been scammed out of my entire life savings. And the most is the recourse is there's no guaranteed protections for the consumer.
And that will be one of the battles that will be fought out unless banks get ahead of the curve and start implementing and looking at other markets. And so other controls, compensating controls that have been put in place, and other faster payment schemes are things like being able to, based on discretion and based on a risk management process, be able to slow down the payment to provide additional checks and controls and balances. So if everything just gets treated equally, then you're not going to really have much hope to be able to come back to some of these gains. I've had to say that they're introducing controls or blocks so that you can potentially selectively block based on some anomalies.
It'll be interesting to know for the details about how that will work, what kind of intelligence these anomalies are based on, how much of it is to be done by the bank prior to putting something, allowing someone to do faster payments. So for example, do they graduate consumers from one payment system to another based on their level of risk? There are multiple things that banks can be doing. One is obviously a lot of it.
They should be doing already, but it's tied to screening around on boiling of accounts, but we do know this synthetic identities, the plethora of stolen identities you mentioned, the COVID loans, perfect example of that, where Scammers are able to set up multiple accounts, businesses make businesses, et cetera, to get themselves paid for us to do that day in, day out. But really what it means when you move towards bus payments and the fact that the consumer now becomes a weakest link, it's not necessarily payments to rouse itself, it's the consumer that becomes a weakest link, you move towards things like education. But when it comes to education, what we do know is not effective, it's just a default, be aware of Scammers. Any default message that you've plastered to your customer base, one will be interpreted by Scammers and then their scripts will update their Scam methods to, you know, warn customers, hey, they're going to ask you this, don't worry, ignore it.
So you need to be able to do things like tailored messaging based on the demographics of that customer, you know, their deposit behavior, and in addition to their transaction payments behavior in totality to be able to be able to have a chance. The other thing that does do that on a positive is that it reinforces the fact that 99, I have a saying that 98% of fraud prevention is good customer recognition. And that means, you know, understanding things like what computers do they transact with, you know, what devices, you know, what what are their behaviors? How do they normally navigate through a site?
Is there evidence that someone might be coaxed? So some of the things that you can do, for example, is, you know, partnering with telco networks to know, hey, is this customer on a call? Or you can actually, within your mobile app, many mobile devices will actually tell you that information. Hey, someone who's doing this banking transaction, you know, to a new beneficiary with a large amount amount, you know, with some money that is out of balance, not only with their payment behavior, but also their deposit behavior.
You know, this is a reason why we should slow down this transaction, introduce more friction, or, you know, perhaps, you know, change it, change the channel by coming into a branch to complete this transaction. Yeah, no, I think you probably, though, no matter what we do, it's, you know, folks hate giving up convenience for security. So that's always going to be a bit of an uphill struggle. It will be.
And, you know, there are obviously trade-offs, you know, that, for example, customers with, you know, credit card transactions, you know, with your travel, anytime you travel, you have to tell your bank, you know, call them up, you know, you already have some of these controls and challenge you talk, you know, how galling was it, whenever you had to travel, you had to ring your bank to tell them, you know, may I travel to another country and please have access to my money, please. Yeah, yeah. And that took a while to get over. Right.
And now we are, you know, now it's kind of, customers don't even do the thought with it, you know, they're doing a transaction while they're on the train. And then, you know, app is collecting your location data. It's, oh, yeah, you know, this is the commute between X and Y, you know, looks legit, you know, let's make that transaction go through seamlessly. So things like location data and others as an example where convenience, you know, often does, you know, win the battle.
And so it does also put emphasis on the fact that, fundamentally, what has happened in the forward game is it's moved from authenticating a device and authenticating an identity to quote unquote authenticating intent, you know, it's about moving the game or your from venture strategies to a whole new level. Right. And intent means, you know, this might be this, you know, a value consumer, this might be their money. But you know, and by the way, there will be no happier customer than somebody, you know, who you stopped, you know, their lives being ruined from it going to, you know, a scammer, you know, and let's say the money being facilitated by, you know, the fact now it's, you know, it's gone, you know, almost instantly, you know, and potentially impossible to recover, you know, they're definitely going to be, you know, definitely might be on the right side of that human tragedy, because it is a human tragedy, you know, there have been folks that have, you know, killed themselves based on, you know, being scammed, you know, some of these crypto scams, you know, they're, you know, it's really awful, the amount of tragedy that these scams can do, because it's not like, you know, a credit card transaction, okay, you know, you have to fight with the bank, you know, maybe it's tens of thousands or however big your, you know, your credit limit, you know, is on that card, you know, if you're able to move tens, hundred, you know, $1,000 at a time, the impact can be devastating.
So it's going to not just create a large, a larger pool of scam victims, it's going to damage the damage to that consumer is going to be even more devastating than what we've seen in other, in other financial tools. Yeah, indeed, you know, yeah, you're absolutely right. Folks will certainly get used to increased difficulty, if you will, in, in arranging to get their own money, get their hands on their own money, but it's so it is a long game that you're involved with here. Yeah, and certainly the fit now, you know, the way, you know, being brought up, you know, bank by bank and things, it will be, it will be a long game, and I guess the counting on the fact that more security protections and features and things like that introduced, and you know, there is, there is power in shared intelligence for sure, but it definitely will not be the complete picture.
And so, you know, it's that, it's that cooperation between that, that triumvirate, between the bank, the consumer, and, you know, the intelligence the Fed now has, being able to orchestrate those various different levels of intelligence and being able to respond in real time dynamically without the consumer even necessarily, you know, being impacted, you know, that's where the game's going. So essentially what it's saying for banks is that they have to really upgrade the level of visibility of that customer. And the big challenge that you have now with these fraud detection systems is that they're all pointing time, looking for a specific set of criteria, you know, so that now might have some of its some intelligence, you know, based on its aggregated, you know, the view of accounts and transactions through its network, but it doesn't have intelligence of, you know, any other payments an account has done or any deposits that account has done, then you have your transaction monitoring system, which is looking primarily at outbound payments, you know, there aren't that many banks are too concerned about people putting money into the bank, but they're very concerned about money that leaves the bank, that that's going to change and has to change that banks actually need to have a full view of the positive behavior in addition to the transactional behavior. That's irrespective of the fit now, it just makes good sense, good business practice.
And the reason why they need to do that is to get out of the head of the curve to provide better intelligence sharing within FIs themselves outside of the fit now, which gives them, you know, better controls and better agility to be able to say, you know what, this looks fine. You know, we know this customer, we've seen them before, you know, the behavior patterns, their location, etc., suggests that this is something that should go through and that should be the case for the vast majority of the transactions. But where you do need to interdict, where you do need to slow down that transaction, maybe send them into a branch network, perhaps, you know, ask them, challenge them with some, you know, hey, here's what your scammer might say to you next, those types of in situ having an awareness of what's against being exploited against this customer, and then what is the language and the words that, you know, are going to most effectively counteract that illusion or delusion that that that consumer might be under. You know, all of this says that you need to revamp your visibility to be able to take into not only fit now's intelligence, your transaction monitoring accounts, but also, you know, what's the account usage, you know, does this a dormant account, does someone normally accessing this account?
Or are we seeing, for example, someone from another country looking at this account, the same device or looking at multiple different accounts, which, accessing multiple different accounts, which might suggest it's a new meal account, and someone's just checking to see whether the money, you know, has finally hit the bank, and then, you know, so that they can immediately send the money out. So it's a game of intelligence, and as we move towards AI, where digital interactions, synthetic digital interactions, will be almost imperceptible to a human being, you know, a different, the difference, you know, from a real human being to someone who's had a synthetic voice, or even video, and certainly, you know, the dawn of the day is where we see that, you know, the phishing message, which is incorrectly spelled with bad grammar, you know, it will be perfectly pitched, you know, to AI, I want you to target a mid-America, you know, create an outbound, you know, email that will, you know, a password reset email that will appeal to a middle America, you know, in terms of language and grammar, and, you know, target this at senior citizens, and then use this, you know, set of Instagram accounts of, of scrape, for example, maybe Instagram is a bad example, Facebook account, that they've scraped, they used to share, you know, their kids' photos and such. So the combination of faster payments and AI means that, you know, we need to be able to make split-second decisions at every interaction to secure that train of trust from the consumer to the bank, to the payment system or facilitator. And is it fair to say then that that's kind of what Darwinim does, or can you describe just in a few words what you guys do and how that makes people like me feel more confident?
Yeah, so what Darwinim does is join together the disconnected silos, security account security, and raw prevention and AML silos to give you a complete picture of that customer, their behavior, and, you know, and enables you to make real-time interdictions based on every interaction. So not just looking at your transactional intelligence, which gives you some information, either payments or the money flow, but, you know, what devices, how do they behave? You know, how do they navigate through the application? Do they go straight to the beneficiary, you know, to add a new beneficiary, for example?
Or, you know, does this account, all it does is log in and look at the, you know, account balance, and then, you know, every so while, as soon as we see a deposit, then there's an immediate payment. You know, all these are views of a customer that you can't get from one singular control. And so Darwinim makes it super easy, you know, it's all this once and we can shake every interaction. So it's different about Darwinim is that we actually implement on the digital perimeter.
What that means is that we're not having to tangle with some of the messy legacy infrastructure and all the challenges that that has for banks to upgrade. We think of us as a layer that transparently goes across all of your existing systems, effectively with the press button. Well, I, you know, back to the long game, we'll be at this a while and I, I, you know, have found this conversation and really interesting, Alistair, and I'm glad you got a chance to tell us kind of how Darwinim works. I will look forward if you're willing to have you back in about six months to have another 45 minutes or so to talk about what's changed and kind of where we are in that space because it's highly active and there are a lot of people that have to make a lot of decisions here at various levels.
And before I let you go, I have one last question. From your point of view, as you look out on your audience, your global audience, which country has the most advanced banking systems in your estimation? I would have to say, I mean, it really depends on the use case and, you know, where that, I mean, the UK actually does have very strong controls, you know, one of the first kind of Western countries to move to faster, faster payments, you know, they have, and it's come from, the advantage they have is, you know, a more concentrated market and, you know, stronger regulation in the sense that they can, you know, edict certain behaviours and so things like strong authentication when mandated, you know, open banking, which enables facilitates competition, you know, so a lot of the UK really is where a lot of, also where a lot of full prevention technologies are often start as well, just because of their willingness to, what they've learned is investing in stronger authentication and then also better intelligence. So I'd say, I definitely say the UK is one of the leading, but still, and this is, and this is what scares me about faster payments with the US, which is overdue, is that, you know, the UK had the benefit of mandating strong authentication on all payments.
And so good news is that, you know, that's a better security posture to have your consumers under, the bad news was that because of the authentication seems being so strong, that kind of pushed process towards scamming the individuals themselves. So, you know, there's going to be some bumpy roads ahead. Yeah, indeed, indeed, that's right. And that, and yeah, and that's a key point, and we'll have to see how that evolves, but, but listen, I really appreciate you taking the time today to spend with me and us and our audience and all that.
I'm sure they enjoyed it as much as I did. And again, I'm bringing you back in six months, if you're willing, and we can talk some more about kind of what happened between and where we're going at that point. Right. Thank you.
Appreciate it. Well, thank you, Alistair. And once again, this is Alistair Faulkner, the co-founder and CEO of Dorwynium, a company that is going to make a huge dent in the fraud prevention universe as we head into the next generation of digital banking. I hope you guys enjoyed it.
And until next time, this is Steve King, your hosts, signing off. Thank you for joining us for another episode of Cybersecurity Insights. You can connect with us on LinkedIn or Facebook or send us an email at social at cybered.io. For more information about the podcast, visit cybered.io or slash podcast.
Until next week, stay safe and secure, and we'll see you on the next episode of Cybersecurity Insights.