Hey there, before we start today's episode, I wanted to share something I'm really excited about. Hidden Brain is now on YouTube. We just dropped an episode exploring a strategy that can help us to solve problems and save time, but it's a strategy almost all of us overlook. I hope you'll check it out.
You can find us at youtube.com slash at hiddenbrain or just follow the link in today's show notes. Okay, here's today's show. This is Hidden Brain, I'm Shankar Vedanta. In Shakespeare's play, The Merchant of Venice, Portia is a beautiful wealthy woman and she is looking for the right man to marry.
Her father has decreed that a successful suitor must pass a test. Each of Portia's admirers is presented with three caskets made of gold, silver and lead. Portia's portrait is inside one. Suitors have to pick the right casket.
The gold casket is inscribed with the words, who chooses me shall gain what many men desire. The Prince of Morocco selects it and discovers it's the wrong choice. On the silver casket are the words, who chooses me shall get as much as he deserves. The Prince of Aragon opts for this casket.
He too loses out. Finally, the noble Bassaneo takes a turn. He picks Meled Casket, which bears the sobering warning, who chooses me must give and hazard all he had. It turns out to be the right choice.
Having picked correctly, Bassaneo gets to marry Portia. In Shakespeare's time, tests like these may have seen odd but charming. But if you set up tests of devotion like this today, it would strike your suitors as puzzling, even preposterous. But that doesn't mean many of us don't devise our own tests of love.
We hold off texting someone we met, hoping they will reach out first. We drop hints about what we want for a birthday present to see if our partner notices. We act distant in the hope it will prompt another person to come closer. Just like the tests in the Merchant of Venice, our tests of love can easily be seen as manipulation.
If finding love is about connection and intimacy, tests create distance and suspicion. What is the hunger inside us that drives us to test the devotion of others? What are we really looking for when we hope our partner selects the ideal anniversary gift? What do we really want when we dream of the perfect proposal?
New psychological research suggests that many of us do not really understand our own needs. How surprising can it be that we reach for the wrong strategies? What we truly want from our intimate relationships? And how to get it?
This week on Hidden Brain. We all want to be loved. It's one of our deepest longings, a need so fundamental that we are willing to twist ourselves in knots to satisfy it. Yet psychologists say that many of the strategies we rely on to obtain love are either ineffective or counterproductive.
Instead of bringing us closer to the warmth we seek, we often end up pushing it away. At the University of California Riverside, psychologists Sonia Lubomersky studies what we do to feel loved and what we ought to be doing. Sonia Lubomersky, welcome to Hidden Brain. Such a pleasure to be here.
Sonia, you're a fan of the TV program Couples Therapy. I haven't watched the show. Can you describe it to me and tell me about some of the patterns you've noticed? Such a great show.
These are real couples in New York. They forget that they're on camera and they have major problems. They're all very diverse. I just feel like over the years, so much resentment and so much disappointment has built up.
It's very hard for me. What I love about the show, it actually makes me feel very smart because you hear them talking and it's like the wife is saying, oh, you never bring me to the gym. You don't do this. You don't do this.
The husband's saying, oh, you haven't done this for me. And then you see the fighting fighting over here on this level, but really underneath it. It seems so obvious that they don't feel loved, that no matter what the guy does, she still doesn't feel loved. No matter what she does, he doesn't feel loved.
But I really feel like at the heart of a lot of problems and relationships or even breakups, it's a lack of feeling loved. No matter what the other person does, you still don't feel loved by them. I understand, Sonia, that you've recently separated and not long ago you went on a date with a man who tried to win your affections. I understand he spoke a lot about his car.
It was really funny. So he had just bought this really brand new high end, like the highest end, Tesla. And so the whole ride to the restaurant we're going to, he was showing off the car. And it was actually really cool.
Like he's showing off all these features of the Tesla. It was like all this self-driving stuff and like really cool features that I had not seen before. And I enjoyed it. And at the end of the drive, I said, I'll just call him Patrick.
Not his real name. I said, is it Patrick? You've persuaded me. I'm going to date your Tesla.
I'm impressed. And he's a funny guy. He actually said, you know, in a few years you probably can. But he was trying to impress me the whole time with how great his car was.
And did you think he noticed that he was doing so? Do you think he was doing so consciously deliberately? Had he given some thought to this? You know, maybe after thinking about it, he might have been aware of it.
But he's a smart guy. I feel like he should have been aware of it. But I feel like it's so human. It's part of our human nature to want to impress others, right?
It's evolutionarily adaptive for us to impress a new potential date or a new business partner or a new friend. And so when we talk to each other, especially towards the beginning of relationships, we want the other person to think that we're kind and interesting and intelligent and funny. And we might succeed in impressing the other person. But what it doesn't do is it doesn't really forge a connection, right?
So you don't really leave that interaction feeling like, ah, I really am connected with that person. I understand that another day turned into a full fledged relationship, but this one had something of a fatal flaw. Tell me what happened. I had a relationship with someone who really did love me, who I knew loved me, but I actually broke it off and it's going to sound almost crazy about what the main reason was that I broke it off.
And the main reason was he just didn't text me like often enough or kind of speedily enough. You know, he took so long to respond to my messages. And you know, I often think that the texting is like the currency of modern relationships, right? That's what a lot of us are doing in relationships is texting.
And I realized later it's just the lack of texting, that lack of responsiveness did not make me feel loved. And that was a part of it. What did you hear when he did not text you quickly enough, Sonya? What went through your head?
It's like, I don't care enough. Yeah, like the worst interpretation is like something like, I don't care enough about your feelings. Like I know you're waiting. And it's like this thing, this idea that if you really loved me, you would care, you would know how important it is to respond right away.
And you still are not doing it. And so that's what's going on in my head. Did you have a breakup conversation where you actually told him the reason you were breaking up with him? Yes.
And we actually have had that texting conversation repeatedly before the breakup. And you know, he would apologize and he would sort of do better for a little while. And he would explain all the ways that he did show love to me, just not in not through texting. And just in the end, I just wasn't enough.
One last story, Sonya, you have four kids, the oldest of whom is in her twenties. You've seen the same patterns we've been discussing when it comes to your relationships with your kids. Can you say more? So I realized one day that I just wasn't feeling as loved as I wanted to by my adult daughter.
She doesn't sort of share that much with me. And I just realized that I just wasn't feeling as loved as I wanted to. I think it's a fairly common situation. I'm wondering how this perception came about when you felt like you were not being loved by your oldest daughter.
What was she doing specifically that made you feel this way? Or what was she not doing that made you feel this way? What she was not doing is that she wasn't sharing very much about herself. She wasn't showing so much affection, physical affection as much as I like as I'm a very physical person.
So I was sort of focused on what she was not doing enough or thinking like what should I be doing to try to get her to be more responsive to me? And what was wrong with me that I wasn't feeling this love coming from her? In some ways it's a variation of what happened with the guy who wasn't texting back quickly enough. It was sort of a lack of responsiveness in some ways that you were perceiving as a lack of love.
Yeah, that's exactly right. It's so interesting because we often don't feel loved for a variety of reasons. And sometimes the person really, really does love us. And they might even show love in different ways, but it somehow isn't registering with us for a variety of reasons.
Maybe because that's not quite our love language or maybe because we don't even see it or we don't think of it as being very authentic or we don't think it doesn't apply to us. So it's a very interesting problem. Whether it's our children, our friends or our partners, what we want most from relationships is to feel cared for and appreciated, to feel loved. But achieving this is much harder than it looks.
When we come back, how we go about trying to feel loved in all the wrong ways? You're listening to Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta. This is Hidden Brain.
I'm Shankar Vedanta. We all want to be loved. We want to feel cared for and appreciated by our friends and by our partners. We want our parents and our kids to tell us how much we mean to them.
But many of us walk around with what you might call a love deficit. Because Sonia Lubamersky says we don't realize there's a difference between being loved and feeling loved. Sonia, let's start there. I think most of us assume that being loved and feeling loved are the same thing.
Aren't they? I think often they are. But I think the interesting case for me as a psychologist are the times when we are loved but we don't feel loved. And it could be that we're not even seeing whatever the other person is doing to make us feel loved.
We're not perceiving it. We're not somehow taking it in. We're not internalizing it. That love is a big felt.
How common do you think it is? This discrepancy between being loved and feeling loved? Do you think it happens a lot? I think it happens a lot.
You know, Harry Wiese, my co-author and I did a survey. We asked people, are there relationships in your life that you sometimes don't feel as loved as you would like to be or as frequently as you'd like to be? And something I think like 70% said that yes, there's at least one relationship, which I don't feel as loved as I want to be. I actually think that number is an understatement.
I actually think it's a lot higher than that. But 70% is a lot. And so maybe it's your colleague, it's your romantic partner, your mom, your child, your friend. I think it's very common.
People also told you in the survey, this was a large survey with almost 2,000 individuals, but they didn't feel loved by their communities. So it wasn't just the intimate relationships in people's lives. It was the larger social settings that they found themselves in. Absolutely.
And there's this lack of feeling, you can also call it a lack of feeling of belonging, which I think is very much related to feeling of loneliness, is very much related. You can argue that being lonely really is basically not feeling loved by your community friends. You know, some people argue this is an epidemic. But this really raises an important point, which is that most people when they think of love, they think of romantic love or passionate love, they think of love between romantic partners.
But there's love in the workplace. And by the way, I think the word love is not used often enough at work. You know, I think we should bring it back to the workplace. Love among friends, neighbors.
My friends and I often tell you to say, I love you to each other. And so when people are confused, like, I'll be on the phone. And I'll say, I love you so much. And I hang out with the phone and my kids are like, who are you talking to?
And like, that's my friend. I love my friends very much. So we need to find love very broadly. I understand that one of the areas that had the largest gaps between being loved and feeling loved was romantic relationships.
So there are lots of people in romantic relationships. These are people who ostensibly are loved because they're in a romantic relationship who feel like they're not. That's exactly right. It is very common to not feel like.
It is, I mean, maybe even during a period of time during a romantic relationship, maybe in a particular domain of that relationship, maybe external activities you do together that you sort of don't feel like by your partner. Maybe when they don't do chores in the house, you don't feel loved by them or they don't respond to your texts, you don't feel loved by them. So I do think it's extremely common. You asked respondents to describe moments when they did not feel loved.
Can you give me some of the examples that they shared with you, Sonia? Often it's not being invited. Actually, that was a very common one, not being invited to something, sort of not being included to maybe a social event, not remembering something important to you. I think feeling loved is very highly related to feeling understood.
I'm not really seen or understood that this person never asks me about this passion of mind, forgetting a birthday. Often it's those kinds of events that really drive it home. I don't feel loved. I know also when people were suffering or sick, you really want people to check in on you when you're suffering or sick and some people reported that wasn't happening.
Exactly. The time that you really, really need to do, that's when you learn who your two friends are, is when during periods of illness or adversity, who are the people who are coming in helping you and bringing you food or driving you to the airport or the doctor's office. Yeah, so those are kind of events that really sort of, as I said, kind of illuminate or telling, but not feeling loved can come in any kind of moments during the day. So it doesn't have to be only during sort of important events of our lives.
You found that the ways people go about trying to feel more loved are often misguided and sometimes counterproductive. One thing we do is try and manage or manipulate the other person into seeing or doing what we want them to do. I want to play a work clip from the movie The Breakup. Jennifer Aniston plays a woman named Brooke and Brooke is involved with Gary played by Vince Vaughn.
Now in this scene Brooke talks to Gary as he plays a car-themed video game. I'm going to go do the dishes. Cool. It'd be nice if you helped me.
No problem. Get them a little bit later. I'm just going to put the streets there for a little bit. Here, come on.
I don't want to do them later. Let's just do them now. Take 15 minutes. Oh, I am so exhausted.
I just honestly want to relax a little bit. If I could just sit here and we will clean the dishes tomorrow. You know, I don't like waking up to a dirty kitchen. Cares.
I care. Alright, I care. I busted my ass all day cleaning this house and then cooking that meal and I worked today. It would be nice if you said thank you and helped me with the dishes.
Fine. How do you do the damn dishes? Oh, come on. Let's see.
That's not what I want. You just said that you want me to help you do the dishes. I want you to want to do the dishes. Why would I want to do dishes?
Why? See, that's my whole point. Sonia, why do you hear what you listen to that exchange? First of all, I'm so into that situation.
Mostly it's Brooklyn. I think I'm on both sides. This is so similar to that show couple's therapy, except it's fiction. So it's like Brooke is not feeling loved because he's not seeing her.
He's not seeing how important it is for her to sort of get the dishes done and so that they can really go about their evening and then it's her. It just seems like this is so easy. It's just 15 minutes of your time. She's like she's not feeling loved by his response.
And of course what Brooke is really asking in this case is actually not helping with the dishes. She's actually asking for something else altogether. She's asking really to be seen and heard. She needs him to kind of yes, pick or feel up as that.
As she memorably says, she doesn't want him to do the dishes. She wants him to want to do the dishes. I've told him to do that situation while I'm complaining. And my husband used to say, and he's like, look, I'm helping you do the dishes.
Like literally with the dishes. Like I'm doing it. Like I don't need to be happy doing it with his response. And I'm like, no, but I want you to be happy doing it.
Which is really the same kind of thing. Another way that we go about trying to make others love us is by making ourselves as physically attractive as possible. We think that looking good will win us the love that we seek. Talk about the strategy and whether it's effective.
Right. And I like to broaden it, not just physical attractiveness but other characteristics. But we think like if only I were more physically attractive than I'd be more loved. If only I were more successful, I would feel more loved.
And these are called extrinsic goals, right? Which is like beauty, fame, power, money, popularity. If only I had those things, I would feel more loved. I would get more love.
And then we try to show that off, right? Sort of broadcast as positive qualities. And it doesn't work. It might work to impress a person, but it doesn't work to actually make us feel more loved.
And if you're kind of broadcasting this, you know, if you're just about physical attractiveness for you or about your accomplishments, it doesn't really show the person your kind of true self, you know, if you will. It's just showing them the sort of outside little positive shiny part that isn't really you. And this is the guy who's telling you all about his test car. Exactly.
I had another date where the guy just went on and on. And he's a story, he's actually a storyteller by his, by professional. So it's a great storyteller. And he went on and on telling all these funny stories.
And after 45 minutes, it impressed me. It did impress me. I thought, oh, he's funny. He's smart.
He's charming. He's witty. I did think that was true, but I really didn't feel a connection with him. And after 45 minutes, I stopped him and I said, do you realize that for the last 45 minutes, you have not asked me a single question.
I remember one of our previous guests on Hidden Brain talked about how, you know, we know about IQ and some of us know about EQ, which is, you know, emotional intelligence. But it's also what they call ZQ, which is the person who has zero questions. And so how, where are you on the ZQ scale? Are you somebody who has zero questions or a lot?
Well, I think question asking is one of the most sort of underestimated social skill. In fact, I tell my kids, you know, like, if you want to make friends, ask people questions about themselves, especially questions about things that they, you know, that their friends care about. And so, in fact, Nick, I believe he was a professor in the University of Chicago, has done these studies that show that people think that, like, if they ask personal questions, that they're going to be perceived as kind of intrusive or too pro big, too personal. But actually, on average, we crave to be asked, like, we want to be asked about our lives, our inner lives, you know, what we really think about something, what our childhood was like.
So, not only do we try and present ourselves as very beautiful or try and, you know, talk up our accomplishments or our skills or our talents, we also go to some lengths to hide parts of ourselves that are unappealing or might be unlovable. Talk about this strategy. We often hide our blemishes in order to feel more loud, but does that work? Right, because we think that that person wouldn't love me anymore if they kind of knew about this weakness of mind, this fault of mind or this bad deed that I made.
And, you know, we're not always wrong, right? I mean, sometimes people really do just like others for certain traits or behaviors. But we do it, we sort of overdo it. We do it too much.
And so, what he's to feeling loved is being known to the other. And if you're hiding, you know, your vulnerabilities, your contradictions, you're sort of messy insights from the other person, you won't feel loved because you'll always wonder if they really knew me, then they wouldn't love me. And it turns out that we often, when we disclose or show some of those contradictions or blemishes at the right pace, right, we don't sort of dump them all at once, when the person already knows us a little bit, we often actually better like, you know, there's this famous case of when JFK after the Bay of Pigs admitted to making a mistake and his approval ratings shot up. So sometimes admitting failures can actually increase people's liking of us.
And of course, in interpersonal settings, Sonia, you know, I want you to like me, not just for my accomplishments and my talents, but I need the love in the places where I'm actually vulnerable. And if I'm not actually sharing the places where I'm vulnerable or where I have blemishes, then as you say, all I experience is that you're admiring me for my talents and my qualities, not for what, you know, what makes me me. So you feel admired? You feel, yeah, like you're impressed, you're impressed with the other person, but you don't actually feel loved when you think about the definition of unconditional love.
That's basically what unconditional love is, is that we're loved despite our blemishes and some of our flaws. Talk about the idea that a lot of what we're doing when we are engaged in relationships really falls under the realm of performance rather than connection. Because when you talk about all the different strategies that you're describing here, talking up our money, our cars, our wealth, our talents, our abilities, how well we tell stories, you know, how well we can tell jokes, all of this is performance. Yeah, it's performance.
And, you know, it's very human, you know, we all do it. And maybe that's part of the kind of social lubricant that is part of a conversation. But really, by the way, I think conversations are really the key to feeling loved. You know, we think about a relationship as really a series of conversations.
So changing those conversations is the key and to make them a little bit less performative and more about like deeper connection, really having deeper conversations. It's really the deeper conversations that make you make the other person feel like. When I show genuine interest in you, Shankar, and ask you about, you know, maybe something, has anything been worrying you, you know, the last few weeks? What's been on your mind, you know, what's, you know, tell me about a relationship, a family member that you are worried about or that you're really happy about, you know, those are the kinds of questions that make us feel more connected to each other, you know, not just trying to impress each other.
I'm wondering what role of social media might play in these habits and preferences, Sonia, because now increasingly, you know, people talk to one another across these digital mediums and they're presenting a face to other people. You're presenting yourself. I'm someone who likes this kind of music. I'm someone who basically goes on these kinds of vacations.
I'm someone who wears these kinds of clothes. And I would imagine that in some ways social media is amplifying our drive to perform. Absolutely, absolutely. People are posting sort of their most positive, positive moments in their lives, right?
This is me on my vacation, looking really great. They're not posting so much about the sort of the fullness of their life that feeling loved requires really kind of a dance. And I'd like to think of it in terms of two people talking, although it could be more than two people, but it's just easier to think about a dyad, where you're really reading the room, you're really reading the other person and sort of asking them just the right level of deep question, where they feel like they're really seen and heard, where I'm showing them I really care. You can't do that on social media.
It doesn't come off, you know, that's why, like, if a friend shares a really funny joke on social media, you know, I might appreciate it, but I really appreciate it. They email me or they text me with that joke because I feel like they are, you know, they're thinking about me. They think that I would really appreciate that and that that for just a connection between us. Dropping hints and fishing for compliments, trying to look good and appear impressive, striving to present a polished and perfect image.
We think that strategies will bring us the love we seek. When they don't, we double down. We try to come across as even more perfect, be ever more impressive, hide the tiniest flaws. When we come back, how to feel loved for real?
You're listening to Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta. This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta.
Have you experienced moments in your life when you felt unloved? Did you feel that way, even when you were around people who were sensibly loved you? What was it specifically that made you feel uncared for? If you have a personal story you'd be willing to share with the Hidden Brain audience, please find a very quiet room and record a voice memo on your phone, two or three minutes is plenty.
Email it to us at feedback at hiddenbrain.org using the subject line, Feeling Loved. Again, that's feedback at hiddenbrain.org. Psychologists Sonia Lubimersky and Harry Reese are the authors of How to Feel Loved, the five mindsets that get you more of what matters most. Sonia, we've been talking about the strategies people deploy when they're trying to feel cared for by others.
We try to make ourselves more beautiful or more accomplished or flawless. And these approaches are based on the idea that in order to be loved, we have to become more lovable. You say that this usually doesn't work. Instead, we are more likely to arrive at a state of feeling loved by creating the right relational conditions.
What do you mean by this? What I mean by this is that we think that to feel more loved, we need to change ourselves, sort of make ourselves more lovable and also show how lovable we are and hide our blemishes. Or we maybe we change the other person. Maybe we try to get them to love us more to somehow see our positive qualities more.
But actually, it's good news. The conclusion that Harry and I reach is actually good news, which is that you don't have to change yourself. You don't have to change the other person. What you have to change is the conversation.
And a relationship again is like a series of conversations. And it's a lot less overwhelming to think about it that way. And actually another huge insight that we had in writing the book is that if I want to make myself feel loved, the first step is trying to make the other person feel loved. That's really what comes first.
And it's counterintuitive because we think like, again, we're focusing ourselves as very, we're getting evolutionally adapted for us when there's a problem to focus on ourselves, figure out what's wrong. But here's a situation where really the focus needs to be on the other person, is to get the other person to feel loved by getting to know them better. So let's unpack some of these things. But let's start with the basic idea.
You argue that by demonstrating interest in others, that is one way, in some ways, of eliciting interest from others. So there is a norm of reciprocity that is at work here. Exactly. And the reciprocity norm of reciprocity principle is really one of the strongest principles of human social behavior.
It's very, very powerful. This is why if I want you to do me a favor, you know, I do you a favor. It's very, very hard for us not to reciprocate, not to return the favor. And so we're talking here in the context of conversation, that when I show genuine curiosity to you, Shankar, and I really listen to your answers, and I'm asking you questions that show that I'm listening to take what you said maybe to a new level, it's going to be very compelling for you to return that favor and to sort of direct that attention back to me.
That's me questions about my life, my inner life, and listen to me. And so it's kind of a dance or sort of dynamic that goes back and forth. Now, of course, a lot of people are going to say, you know, Sonia and Harry are telling me that precisely the point that I feel unloved, precisely the point that I feel like this other person is dropping the ball. They are telling me I need to pay attention to that person instead of demanding that person pay attention to me.
You and Harry came up with a metaphor to explain your idea that you called the relationship seesaw. First, explain the term seesaw. You have an interesting spelling for the term and how this metaphor works. Yes.
And I want to also, I'm going to do that, but also want to validate that, yes, it is. It seems so counterintuitive, kind of at the lowest point where you really want to feel up to sort of advise people to show it to a person, but it's exactly what is needed. And to really ask the person, why is it that they are responding the way they are, you know, showing curiosity in them? And by the way, I do also want to add a caveat, which is that once in a while it's not going to work.
It's going to fail. The other person is not going to respond. They're not going to reciprocate. That is going to happen once in a while.
And maybe that means that you need to walk away or you need to pause or you need to try something different or you accept the fact that's how it's going to be. And so I don't want, I'm not a Pollyanna and I don't think that's going to work at 100% of the time, but I think it's very, very powerful what we're talking about. So the seesaw we spell, see like the underwater. And the reason we spell it this way is this idea that there's a seesaw underwater and we sort of partially submerge and sort of say you and I are sitting on opposite end of the seesaw.
So most of us are submerged, but maybe the top of our heads or the top of ourselves are showing. And that's what's going on in most of the world. Like we're showing just like a little tip of ourselves to one another, just kind of maybe the shiny parts, maybe the positive qualities, right? Most of us, like it's kind of the iceberg, right?
It's under the water. We're not really showing to each other. And the idea is that again, we're sitting on the seesaw. And then when I show genuine curiosity and interest in you and I ask you a question, what has been on your mind lately and I show warmth and acceptance, you feel a sense of warmth and trust and safety.
And it says, though I'm pressing down on the seesaw and it lifts you up a little bit, it lifts you up a little bit. So you're able to show a little bit more of yourself to me, right? You're able to reveal a little bit more of your inner self, a little more of your full self, maybe some vulnerabilities. And then as you do that, as you talk about maybe your childhood, how difficult it was, I listen really well to you.
I'm really listening. I'm asking questions. And that makes you even more, you know, feeling even more safe and trusting and even more comfortable, you know, sort of lifting more of yourself out of the water. And then that's that the reciprocation happens, right?
And then you ideally that reciprocate and then show interest in curiosity in myself. It lifts me out of the water. So it's kind of a process of I lift you and then you lift me in this lifting and being lifted. And I love the metaphor of the seesaw because initially, when you are lifting effectively the other person out of the water, you're actually doing more to submerge yourself.
You're putting more of yourself under the water so that the other person can be lifted out. But of course, if you think about the natural movement of a seesaw, yes, it goes up on one side, but then it goes up on the other side. And that's what happens. It goes back and forth.
When you show genuine interest and warmth and listening towards the other person, it helps them be comfortable and helps them open up. It helps us to know each other better. And then they reciprocate. In your book, you describe a very talented listener named Marco.
Tell me what Marco does and how it really shows the power of listening in helping the other person raise themselves out of the ocean. So Marco was the best listener I've ever met in my life. And I don't know how he became such a great listener if it's just like genetic. I do think we can learn to be better listeners.
But he also had a great memory too. So most of us listen to respond. So we're kind of like while we're listening ostensibly, we're really rehearsing what we're going to say next. And we're kind of waiting for the mic to be given back to us.
So this guy, Marco, was not doing this. He was listening to learn. Listening to learn is like listening like there's going to be a quiz tomorrow. And you would remember everything.
You would say, Sonya, remember that time you were telling me about your mom and this happened and you were wearing a red dress. And you were sitting over there. It's so incredibly compelling. Because you feel like, wow, he really cares about me.
He's very thoughtful. He's paying attention. By the way, I don't have that kind of memory. So we can't remember the red dress.
It doesn't mean that we're not a good person. But this guy really was a prodigy at listening. I can't remember who told us the story. But someone told us the story on Hidden Brain some time ago about former president Bill Clinton, who famously was able to make every person in a room feel like they had his full attention.
But they told us this wonderful story about Clinton when he was governor of Arkansas visiting, I think, a middle school, and talking to the various kids there and asking, what do you want to be when you grow up? And one of the kids who was a little cheeky said, I want to be you when I grow up. This is a middle schooler. And so everyone has a good laugh.
And then Clinton leaves the governor's ship of Arkansas. He becomes president of the United States. And at one point he goes back to the South during a natural disaster. And there are thousands of people who are waiting to see him.
And there's a rope line with like, and he's greeting thousands of people and shaking hands. And after doing two hours of this, he's in an intersection. And he looks over the intersection three rows back. And he reaches out and shakes this guy's hand, who's now eight years or ten years older than he was in middle school.
And Clinton asks him, do you still want to be me? That is such a moving story. I love that story so much. And I've heard that too.
Like he'll remember like your cousin's wedding happened and how did that go. And you know, most of us don't have that kind of memory. So we don't feel like we need to feel bad if we don't. But charismatic people like Bill Clinton, he's really like a prodigy.
They make you feel like you're the only person in the world. Like you're the only person in the world when you're talking to them. You know, there's a story. And again, I mean, I even get it right.
And maybe a puckerful there's a story about when Gladstone was running for Prime Minister against Disraeli. And a woman sat next to each of them in sort of consecutive fundraising nights. And after she sat next to Gladstone, she was asked how was your dinner? And she said, oh, it was such a lovely dinner.
I had such a lovely time I had with him. He's just the clevers man in all of England. And then the next night she sits next to Disraeli and the same question and they ask her how was your night. And she said, oh, that was such a wonderful time with him.
I feel like I'm the clevers woman in all of England. Right? And that's exactly what Bill Clinton and charismatic people do. So they, instead of making them feel good about themselves, they make you feel good about yourself.
And again, it's curiosity listening, asking questions about yourself. And they draw out your wit or your kindness or your intelligence. That's the key. You also say it's important to genuinely keep our hearts open to the other person.
In other words, it's not just how we look, what we say, how we listen. But inside, the other person can't see us at all to actually keep our heart open to the other person. Describe what you mean by this, Sonia. You know, and this is in some ways, this is actually the most common attribute of relationships is, you know, most of us in relationships that are sort of intact, whether it's a friendship or a mental relationship or a collegial relationship.
You know, we tend to have an open heart toward the other person, which means we have warmth towards them. We wish them well, we want them to be happy. We're kind to them. We care about them.
So actually, it's pretty common to have that open heart. But it's important to sort of maintain that, because that sense of warmth, it helps the other person as we talked about to open up, right? And that's more of a warm and kind and our eyes show sometimes, I have friends, they look at me with loving eyes. It's really one way to think about it.
It's so wonderful. And that warmth gives us a sense of safety and trust and helps this to open up and become more known and so we can become and then to feel more loved. You know, I think many of us look at people who are good communicators, good listeners, and we say, okay, I need to do these four different things. I need to look the other person in the eye.
I need to ask them questions. I need to show interest. I need to ask follow up questions. And yes, you can do all of those things.
But at some level, if you're not actually interested in the other person, we are very good at picking up, you know, facing the other person. You know, fickery, very good at picking up people who are not sincere. And in some ways, when you talk about keeping an open heart to someone, what you're saying is it's not just what you're showing on the outside that matters. You actually have to, at some level, feel it on the inside.
Exactly. Exactly. Actually, the definition of what's called high quality listening is kind of the psychological term for really good listening is basically you're paying attention. I'm paying attention to your words.
I'm understanding your words. And also I care about what you're saying. And that last part is really important. Like, I actually, I actually care.
Right. And so that warmth, that kindness, it's so critical. It's kind of a symptom, right? But the other person really cares.
And as you said, like it's, we can tell it's, you can't fake it. You know, we are very good. It's a evolutionary adaptor again for us to be good, you know, fantasy detectors, right? Because those are maybe people that we don't want to invest a lot of time with.
I understand that when you and Harry were writing your book, you spent some time in a coffee shop talking about this notion of keeping your heart open and other patrons in the coffee shop overheard your conversation and came over on their own on their own religion to share ideas with you. Describe for me what happened. It was actually incredible. So this was like in January, last January, in Brooklyn, New York, it was sort of a dark, like a cold day.
And so, and this has never really happened anytime because I'm often a coffee shop talking to people. I've never been sort of approached so consistently by others. So we were sort of brainstorming ideas for a book. And I would say at least three different people just came up to us and started talking to us.
Like, you know, some of them were one of them was really shy and so I'm really starting to interrupt. But I want to tell you. So they heard we were talking about feeling loved. And so they gave us different stories from their lives.
And sort of one woman, maybe 28 or something, her boyfriend, I think, lives in Mexico, she said. And so it's really hard for them to sort of maintain that relationship with long distance. And so she mentioned how they have the shared Spotify list. And so on a regular basis, they will add songs to the shared list that are meaningful to them.
And that makes them feel loved. Another person said that he and his partner have a picture frame that has a picture of the two of them. And it lights up kind of randomly throughout the day. And when it lights up, they send each other a word.
It's just one word that expresses their feelings. And it could be love. It could be yearning. It could be curiosity.
It could be loneliness. Right? And that makes them feel loved to feel like they really feel connected to the other person. And it was so beautiful.
It was so beautiful that people kept like they wanted to share, which made us think that like, wow, this is really hitting a nerve. People really think a lot about this, about feeling loved, not feeling loved, what maintains, feeling loved, what gets people to fall out of that feeling loved. It's really on people's minds a lot. One of the things that I think happens in long-term relationships, especially Sonia, is that we start to forget how complicated people are and how much they change.
Can you talk a moment about how being open to another person means sort of accepting that they are complex people and that they're not fixed in stones? So just because someone goes out to a party doesn't mean that they're an extrovert. They could have different sides to them. Talk about this idea that our embracing of complexity, both our own complexity and the complexity of other people, helps us forge closer relationships.
Yeah, I think this is so important. We've been talking about the importance of sharing and listening and getting known and being known. Well, some of that might involve me telling you a story that might involve a contradiction or something that's maybe not so positive about me or something that you don't really understand. Why did she do this?
And so I think it's important for us to respond with, I guess you would say, with acceptance, that you really accept the other person, that the idea that we're all acquilt or tapestry of many, many qualities. And I have this trauma, yes, but it doesn't define me. I have sometimes I'm kind, but you know what? Sometimes I'm selfish and sometimes I'm loyal, sometimes I'm a little narcissistic.
And we all have that. We all have that. And how do we sort of turn off that sort of judgmental tendency is when we hear someone's story that sort of doesn't quite make sense. How do we respond to that?
And I think that's actually one of those challenging things to do. You told me that there were times when you didn't feel loved by your daughter, even though you knew that she did love you. I'm wondering whether your research has informed how you went about seeking love from her? You know, when I did feel loved by my daughter, I thought, like, I should talk to her and ask her, you know, what is it?
And somehow I thought that I don't know, like, I could change something about myself or about her. But what the researcher behind the book taught me is to start with showing interest in her and showing interest in her in her life and sort of what makes her tick and start to ask questions about the things that are really exciting to her, which may not be exciting to me, at least not initially. And so I started to spend more time with her, I started to ask her more questions and sort of to listen more and then to follow up too, right? So maybe follow up maybe a week later, a month later, say, hey, I remember when you told me that you were interested in that, you know, what is happening there, you know, sort of to follow up because then she sees that I remember the things that really mattered to her and to make her feel loved first.
Did that work? Did it change her behavior? Yeah, you know, it didn't have some kind of immediate miraculous, you know, result, but it led her to open up a little bit more to me. It led her to ask me more questions about me, which is, you know, not as common children often don't ask their parents a lot of questions.
They made me think like, oh, I should go call my mom and ask her more questions. I'll do this after this episode. Call your parents and ask them questions about their inner lives or about their childhoods, about what really matters to them. And also it led us to be more affectionate with each other.
I'm a huge fan of physical touch. You know, it's like I just feel so loved, you know, when we're cuddling, you know, and so we've been cuddling a lot more lately. As Sonia Lobe-Mersky notes, when we don't feel loved, our thoughts often turn inwards. We ask ourselves, what is it about me that others don't like?
When a classmate in school doesn't want to be our friend, we may tell ourselves we're not cool enough. When a potential employer doesn't hire us, we fear it's because we're not smart enough. How do we prevent these sorts of thought patterns from becoming self-fulfilling prophecies? Recently, the psychologist Greg Walton told me a story.
He works at Stanford University and also went to school there. At an alumni event, a woman approached him with an anecdote of perseverance. She said, when she was a kid, she loved soccer, and she told her father that she was going to try out, and she'd walk on to the Stanford women's soccer team, which is a very good team. Walking onto a college sports team is never easy.
Most of the players are recruited by coaches. The process is highly competitive with lucrative scholarships on the line. Joining the team as a walk-on would require a ton of hard work. The woman's father didn't believe she was capable of that.
And her father said, you're not going to go there three weeks early and get up every morning at whatever hour, like I don't believe you. And she told me that she did do that. After the woman received negative feedback from her father, she couldn't have let it stop her. She couldn't believe that she wasn't good enough or dedicated enough.
Instead, she chose to focus on a positive compliment she'd received years earlier. And the reason she did that was because when she was a kid playing on a youth soccer team, she overheard the parent apparent on a different team saying, hey, like that number 23, which was her number, she's really good. And she held that in her heart and in her mind. As she came to Stanford, as she walked on to the Stanford women's team, and as she made the team and made a career out of the soccer business.
When we consider our own abilities, how do we keep fears and doubts from turning into beliefs? After the break, Greg Walton answers listener questions and comments about the science of self-fulfilling prophecies and how to avoid negative thought spirals. You're listening to Hidden Brain, I'm Shankar Vedanta. This is Hidden Brain, I'm Shankar Vedanta.
When we realize that we've failed at something, it's hard to focus on anything else. Our minds tell us over and over, that we are weak, we're lazy, we're stupid. This negative train of thought can lead to painful questions. Why am I not good enough?
Do others hate me? One fear bleeds into another. Soon, we don't even remember where the negativity started, down we descend into a vortex of doom. How do we find our way out of such negative thought spirals?
At Stanford University, psychologist Greg Walton studies how our minds can entrap us and what we can do to avoid these traps. Greg is the author of Ordinary Magic, the science of how we can achieve big change with small acts. He joined us on a recent episode of Hidden Brain titled, You 2.0, Stop Spiraling. Today, he's back on the show to respond to your questions and comments about that episode.
Greg Walton, welcome back to Hidden Brain. Thank you for having me. Greg, I'm going to start by playing you a story of a listener who called in. Her name is Sherry, and she shared how she struggled with negative thought spirals as a young woman.
It really escalated quite a bit as I grew out of my teens and into my twenties, that it started to become so bad. You know, all of these thoughts about how I was living up to who I should be, that was stupid, you shouldn't have said that. Why did you do that? Regrets about the past, these kinds of terrible, looping thoughts that at some point had me thinking about suicide quite a bit.
Because I just didn't think that there was a way out of all of that. I'm going to come back at the end of the show, Greg, with more of Sherry's story. Sherry tells us how she got out of her doom loop. But for now, can you start by talking about Sherry's experience of spiraling?
What she went through is, how do you nique is it? No, of course not at all. So that experience of having one bad thought kind of prime the next thought. So I did something bad, I'm bad, I did something else bad, I'm really bad.
That vortex, as you describe it, makes a lot of sense. And I think it's something that everybody can relate to. You talk about some of the reasons we might spiral. We heard from a listener named Lucia, who writes, Our 16-year-old son is in a downward spiral because of a hiccup on his schedule this year.
He's a junior in high school. He's given up on school. He thinks his life is ruined. He has a very fixed mindset and it is very difficult for him to get unstuck.
We're having a hard time supporting him through this and would love some insight. We talked, Greg, in our previous conversation about how people often overreact to setbacks in their lives. We blow small pieces of information out of proportion. You talked about the idea of something called a tiff bit.
Can you remind us what a tiff bit is? Sure, of course. A tiff bit is a tiny fact that you have a big theory about and then you react to it in a big way. So the teacher maybe says something unkind and she thinks I'm dumb.
I'm not checking out. I'm not participating in this class anymore. That would be an example of a tiff bit. So when it comes to a young person, somebody who is in high school, it's hard to imagine the kind of setback this person could have that could justify them feeling like their life is ruined when they're a junior in high school.
And yet this must happen all the time. People in high school must constantly feel, my God, whatever happened this past week in school, it's so huge that it must mean the rest of my life has no future. Yeah, well, I think the thing to think about there is we're talking about adolescents who are in the process of developing from being children into the adults they'll be. So suppose you're a kid, you're 15 years old and you want to join maybe it's the newspaper club and maybe you get excluded from that.
You're in your mind. You might be thinking, now I can't be the newspaper journalist that I wanted to become. You might not have that thought fully consciously, but the rejection from the club might feel like a rejection from the future self that you are aspiring to. Lucy writes that her son has a fixed mindset.
What are fixed mindsets and how do they lead to these kinds of thought spirals? Yeah, a fixed mindset is the idea that you have a certain amount of intelligence. That's what you have. And you're either smart or you're not smart.
And there's not much you can do to increase that. And if you have that fixed mindset and you approach a learning situation, maybe you take a math test, if you don't do very well, that fixed mindset tells you you're not good at this. You're not a math person. You shouldn't try at this.
And it leads people to become unresilient when they're faced with learning challenges. You've done research looking at how students can avoid spirals and cultivate what's called a growth mindset. So for a parent like Lucia, who is basically dealing with the 16 year old son who feels like his life is over, how would you recommend she deploy this idea of a growth mindset to help her son Greg? Yeah, so I think one thing to say is that Lucia's role is one important role as a parent.
And there's other people around that child too, including all of the educators around them who are playing important roles and all of the peers around that child as well. And what all of those actors want to be able to do in that circumstance is really talk about the value of learning and growth and the opportunity for learning and growth. So when you make a mistake, it's not a sign that you're dumb. That would be a tiffit.
It's a sign that you haven't gotten something yet. You know, just in the same way that a toddler who falls down is their learning to walk. They're not a non walker, right? They're just a child who hasn't yet gotten the competency of walking.
So in math class, if you fail a test, that means you don't understand that material yet. And the parent's role and the teacher's role and the peers role is all to come together to support that learning process to play their roles well. So if you're a parent, that might be about encouragement for the teacher. It might be saying, I'm going to be with you every step of the way as you work on this material and it's hard and I'm going to give you the right materials.
And when you ask a question that's helping me become a better teacher because you're helping you understand what it is you don't know yet and how I can respond to you in ways that will support that learning growth that you're on. We heard from another parent named Melissa who writes, I've noticed that young kids these days, including my own, seem to treat every small bump in the road as a large catastrophe. I try to talk to my kids and encourage them not to see it like this. Now, as we discussed, Greg, adolescence is a dramatic time in our lives.
Do you know if teenagers are more prone to negative spirals than younger kids or older adults? I don't know of data that has asked that question directly. I would not be surprised though. I had an opportunity this past fall to do a couple of different events for Stanford alum talking about people's experiences in the transition to college.
And in these events, I talked about how it's very common to worry about whether you belong when you come to college and when you have an initial difficulty, maybe a conflict of a roommate. That can sometimes seem if you're 18 years old, like maybe that's a sign that people like me don't belong here. And what was so interesting in doing these events with alum, people who are now in their 40s and their 50s and their 60s and their 70s, is they all recall back to that time and said, absolutely yes, when I was 18, it felt like the world was riding on that. Like the world was riding on whether I was going to have a good relationship with my roommate or what did my professor say to me when I asked a question in class, or did I get a B plus or an A minus on that chemistry test, right?
From the perspective of a 45, well that's in the distant past, right? And nothing is really riding on that now, but they could recall back to what that was like and how important that felt for the student at that time. Sometimes negative thoughts, by those can be triggered by what we think is happening in the minds of other people. We got a message about this from a listener named Linda.
She writes, When I worked as a nurse, there was an on call administrator I needed to call maybe once a month. Whenever he'd answer, he sounded negative and perturbed. I always felt like he didn't like me because his tone seemed like he was saying, great, it's you again bothering me. One day, I was standing with an earshot when his phone rang.
I heard him answer in the exact same tone he'd be answering when I had called. This is when I realized that it wasn't me, that that was simply how he answered his phone. So Greg, in previous episodes of the show, we've explored the errors we make when we try to read the minds of other people. Talk for a moment about how these faulty assumptions can shape our tendency to spiral.
Yeah, right? So the listener is learning that this person she's interacting with is actually just a grump, right? So it's actually about him. It's not about her.
All of us kind of look out at the world from a kind of self perspective, like you're reading the world from the perspective of yourself. And so you're asking the question kind of, you know, what does this have to do with how I'm seen? What does this have to do with me? What does it have to do with my abilities?
What does this have to do with how they're evaluating me or what my prospects might be? And sometimes we can neglect the fact that it might be about them. It might be about their own stuff that's going on inside of them. And then when something negative happens, like a brusque interpersonal experience, you can think very easily.
They don't like me. They don't believe in me. They don't respect me. And that can kick off a downward spiral.
I'm wondering if this is also magnified when we're dealing with people who in some ways have power over us. So if you're thinking about a small child interacting with her parents, for example, or a kid in a classroom interacting with a professor, you know, it's understandable that we pay a lot of attention now to the affect and behavior of this other person because this other person has power over us. And now perhaps we're even more likely to over interpret their moods, their attitudes, the way they speak as being somehow referential to us. Yeah, absolutely.
Right. So I'm reminded of an older French movie called the class in which there is a teacher who's teaching a group of students, many of whom are immigrants, and there's an African immigrant student in the class. And the African immigrant student finds out that the teacher who he believes most in, who he thinks believes in him, has said something about him. And there's this classroom confrontation that elicits what that thing is that that teacher had said about that student.
And what the word is that the teacher had said was limited. And the student, the immigrant student hears that this is the word that his favorite teacher has said about him. And he physically deflates. He collapses in his chair.
And maybe 30 seconds later in the film, he erupts in an incredible display of anger. And you can feel how devastating that is, how absolutely devastating that is when someone you look up to someone who has power over you, someone who might know something that you don't know for seas for you, a future that is limited sees in you a lack of capacity. It is absolutely devastating. And the inverse is also incredibly true and incredibly powerful.
So there is, I don't think anything more powerful or more special than when you're struggling, when you don't know which way to go, when you're lost or you're confused or you're getting into college. And somebody believes in you and they see in you the good and the successful person that you can become. And they share that image for you. And they play their part to help you realize that image.
I think that is that's bringing ordinary magic to your life. When we come back, how are framing of negative events causes us to spiral downwards or upwards? You're listening to Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta.
This is Hidden Brain. I'm Shankar Vedanta. At times it feels like bad things come in threes, fours, even tens. One setback leads to another and another.
And soon this destructive snowball has gathered so much momentum, it feels like it will crush us. At Stanford University, psychologist Greg Walton studies how these avalanches grow and how we can stop them. Today he joins us to answer your questions about his work. Greg, we heard from a listener named Suzanne.
She says she has struggled with spiraling almost her whole life. It started when she was very young. When I was 19, my sister was 21. She choked to death.
And so of course now I have a fear of choking. If I come down late at night, my husband is sitting in front of the TV eating peanuts, I start worrying that he's going to choke on the peanut. And I'm going to come down in the morning and find him dead. And it's something that I get a little bug in my mind about it initially.