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This podcast is being brought to you by WXAV88.3 FM and WXAV.com. WXAV, bringing the best podcast to you. Hi, I'm Peter Creighton, and welcome to a very special birthday celebration for the world's greatest fictional detective. The character of Sherlock Holmes has lived in our collective imagination for over 130 years.
During that time, he has conquered print, radio, television, and film. In fact, it's safe to say that he may be more popular today than when he was first published in the Strand magazine in 1891. So to celebrate Holmes' birthday, I wanted to explore his popularity, and why he has never really left the forefront of our collective imagination. If anything, he's gone on to inspire countless other great fictional consulting detectives, while essentially giving birth to modern fandom.
To find answers to these questions, I recently spoke with a Sherlockian expert. Donald Terris is master of the Hounds of the Baskerville Sick, a Sherlock Holmes Society located here in Chicago. In our conversation, Donald discusses how he first discovered Sherlock Holmes, how the Sherlockian societies were first created, and why Holmes is such an endearing character. Here now, my conversation with Donald Terris.
My full name is Donald J. Terris, and I am master of the Hounds of the Baskerville Sick, that qualifies the Hounds of the Baskerville. Can you share with us, Don, how you first discovered the Sherlock Holmes stories? You know, it's far back in my memory, but I remember in grammar school, we had a librarian come into class which would sit and read stories to us.
I was probably in third or fourth grade, and I remember during the holiday season, the time of year, she read the blue car bonkle to us. That is the case of the blue car bonkle. And it's a fascinating story. Holmes methods are exposed very well in the story, this character.
It's a great holiday story, and that really got me started on it. But I really didn't get involved until some years later when I think I was in junior high school, and the WGN-TV here in Chicago was running the Bazzle Rathbone series of Sherlock Holmes movies that he did during the 30s and 40s. And they were on Sundays, and I never missed them one of them, partly because I like Bazzle Rathbone, and two, I just love the stories and the characterizations that they did back then. It's really funny you mention that because that's kind of how I got introduced to Sherlock Holmes as well to my dad's a big fan, and we used to watch the Bazzle Rathbone Sherlock Holmes together all the time.
We still do in fact, and that was very similar in one of my first introductions to the character. Do you have a favorite story of Sherlock Holmes at all? Well, I'd be remiss if I didn't say my favorite story was the Hound of the Bazzleville. It's got characterization, it's got mood, it's got just a great storyline to it.
It's a terrific mystery. It's got all of the elements that really made Sherlock Holmes and the Sherlock Holmes account. If you're a die-hard Sherlockian, you don't believe they're just stories. They are accounts of actual investigations at Holmes undertook.
But the Hound of the Bazzleville really has all of the terrific elements that made Sherlock Holmes so popular. Since you mentioned it, do you have a favorite Bazzle Rathbone movie? Outside of the Key Adventure of the Robin Hood, which takes us off of the interview topic here. But it's the Captain Blood, there's just a fascinating actor, Hollywood actor, a fascinating guy.
But it's not sure why Holmes goes. I think the Hound of the Bazzleville again is one of his better outings as Sherlock Holmes. Yeah, that is a great one. We would have also accepted Son of Frankenstein because he is in that one as well too.
That's right, yeah. You mentioned earlier that you're a member of one of the Sherlockian societies of the Chicagoland area, which is called the Hound of the Bazzleville. And can you just tell us a little bit about how this organization came together? Well, it was started in 1943 due largely to the efforts of a very prominent writer, Chicago writer at the time.
Actually, his name is Vincent Therat and was actually born in Toronto, but made his home here in Chicago. And he was a writer, war correspondent, poet. He did all kinds of writing at the time with good friends with Jack London and a lot of famous Ben Hecht, Hemingway, the friends with all of the great writers of the period. And he was a Sherlockian.
And it was due to his efforts and those of Charles Collins, a colleague of his at the Chicago Tribune, Vincent Therat, also with a columnist for the Tribune for many years, writing about books of course. And really those two, along with Stanley Pargillis and Horace Bridges, a couple of other Holmes-Davo-Piv, they started the hounds in 1943, January 7th. And it was due to their efforts that the hounds really got off the ground. And the hounds were the third oldest society, so-called Sherlockian society or scion, which is a subgroup.
They're superseded only by the Baker Street or regulars in New York that were formed in 1934 and the speckled band of Boston. I cannot remember the date they were, they were established. Now, in doing my research for this interview, I, you know, write up a little bit about the Baker Street or regulars and their famous dinner parties in New York. Now, with the Sherlockian societies, are they all like a part of the Baker Street or regulars?
Is that like an umbrella organization or is each organization like its own separate entity? Well, the Baker Street or regulars being the oldest Sherlockian society in the United States act as kind of a mother group to all the other groups, which are called science or subgroups of the Baker Street or regulars. The hounds, however, at one time, because they had a very prominent figure in Vincent Therat who helped form the Baker Street or regulars, the hounds are our own chapter here in Chicago for many years before they just finally became a scion or subgroup of the of the Baker Street or regulars. Now, can you kind of explain what takes place in these organizations and these societies?
What do members do? Well, they study the canon for one reason or another. I mean, people are very taken with the stories, they're very taken with the characters, or they're taken with the times. I spent 24 years in higher education in the Department of Anthropology at Northeastern Illinois University.
My particular interest is not only with the writing the mystery, but also in Doyle does such a great job of creating the atmosphere that the accounts took place in. I look at these stories, kind of as social documents of the Victorian era. So people are interested in them for a lot of different reasons and look at them in their own perspective and light of those likes. So you almost see the Sherlock Holmes stories as a window into our past then.
Yes, that's a very good way to put it. I think that his writing is definitely a documentation of the times. Now, what do you think Doyle was able to capture that? Do you think it was just his ability of being a writer or do you think there was other external?
I think he wrote what he knew and he knew the times very well, you know, the Victorian era and there's a lot of the Victorian era in his stories. You can't really have the stories without having the era in there. A lot of these organizations, they do a lot of research and and published materials based off of the accounts of Sherlock Holmes and that. Can you talk a little bit about what the Hounds have done in research of the characters and that?
The Hounds Act is an honor society, first of all, for other science around the country. The membership is not open. It's by invitation only. So, you know, our membership is comprised of people who have been Sherlockian or Doylian fans for a very long period of time.
And in their own right have contributed to the corpus of Sherlockiana or O'Meevian writings. So we're a little bit different than other organizations. As far as publishing goes, we do have a publication on the history of the Hounds. A nice hardcover book.
There's a 75th anniversary edition that was published just last year. And I wrote, I updated an edition that was written in 1983. So it was a combination of myself and what I got by the name of John Aminski did really, really starting or wrote the first edition. And that's what we have.
We have the history of the Hounds of the B.S. Reville and the rest of us that our members have contributed to other writings, for example. I was a member of a group here in Chicago that's called Hugo's Companions. For those people who were wondering how that name came about, Hugo's Companions were the friend of Sir Hugo of which the Hounds of the B.S.
Reville came about. So the Hounds and Hugo's Companions are very historically have been very close knit. But I was President of Hugo's Companions and I did a book on their 50th anniversary. I acted as contributing editor and manager of the project when my title was Sir Hugo or President of Hugo's Companions.
I also edited a book, Sir Arthur Code and Doyle and Sherlock Holmes for the Newberry Library was to dedicate the contribution of a significant collection of home museum artifacts to the Newberry Library by a tremendous collector C. Fred Kittle. I mean it's called the Kittle Collection of Doyle and Anna which is now at the Newberry Library. There's another name I want to bring up for you before we move back to Sherlock Holmes himself.
And that is Vincent Starrett. And I hope I said his last name for it. What was his impact on Sherlock Holmes culture? Well as I said before you know he was a very prominent individual.
He had written all the private life of Sherlock Holmes, the unique Hamlet. He wrote a poem called 221 B. He helped start the Baker Street A regulars. I mean you're talking about a Chicagoan who was really I think arguably could be called the spark plug of the Sherlockian movement in this country.
The Baker Street A regulars of course were the first group that were formed in 1934 but with the help of Vincent Starrett and you know Chicago holds a very coveted place in the Sherlockian world because of Vincent Starrett. And Vincent Starrett is one of the stars of the fandom if I can use that word. It's comedy. And you actually had a perfect segue there with mentioning our city that we live in Chicago.
What are some of the connections between our city Chicago and Sherlock Holmes the character to Conan Doyle to the myth to the fandom? Which Chicago's role with the character? Well Chicago only comes up a couple or three times in the stories themselves. Holmes makes reference to Ape's Laney, notorious crook in Chicago.
He may mention the other of the Randall gang. Doyle himself visited Chicago on a couple of occasions. So Chicago is there but it's not a point of focus for the stories. I mean it's Chicago is really more known more for the science societies that are here.
At one point in time there were eight or nine active Sherlockian groups in Chicago. I know that's dwindled now to probably three or four but even three or four is a lot have in a even in a large metropolitan area like Chicago. When we had eight or nine there wasn't any city in the country that could touch Chicago. That's how popular Sherlock Holmes and Arthur Conan Doyle were in the city.
Let's go back to Sherlock Holmes himself. The character, the man if you will, is approaching 132 years old and we're still drawn to him. I mean there's been major movies with Robert Downey Jr. that's been produced over the last decade.
You have the Benedict Cumberbatch series from the BBC. You have new radio dramas that are being produced out in Seattle. The character is still as popular as when he was first published. This is two parts.
One what do you think Holmes' impact on literature is? Then the second part is why do you think we're still drawing to the character? Because he's not the most lovable character in all of literature. I think it really starts with Pulp Fiction, the generation of a lot of publications which really took place during the 1800s.
There were the stories about the old west that were serialized and largely the term for it is Pulp Fiction. It really began during the 1800s. That's when people started following these characters. It could be looked at as an early form of shared fandom, which we call just today.
Fandom social media really helped create the few other flames of the shared fandom today. But it wasn't so much Sherlock Holmes to begin with. The character, and Doyle was very clear on this. He was influenced very much by the character of C.
Auguste DuPinn that was penned by Edgar Allan Poe. Doyle took off on that. Sherlock Holmes really is partly DuPinn. It's mostly Conan Doyle.
Conan Doyle really took off with the character and the idea. Without Sherlock Holmes, we wouldn't have the great characters of Nick Charles, Sam Sade, Charlie Chan, Philip Marlow, Spencer, or TV shows, certainly like CSI or House. There are almost too many to mention. The impact of Holmes has really been tremendous.
The impact of Holmes, I should say, through Arthur Conan Doyle has really been tremendous. As far as Holmes' character being popular, I think people resonate with somebody who says what he thinks and he has a great conviction in what he knows. We're living in a time period today where people see an awful lot, but they don't observe. The difference being that when you observe something, you have the time to absorb and understand what you're seeing.
People today move so quickly through time, through the day, through their lives, that they very rarely are able to really take a good look and understand the intricacies of life and certainly with Holmes, it's put in context with mystery. I think they have a good deal with why people are taking with this character. So just two more questions for you. One is just a fun one.
Who do you think has been the best portrayal of the character Sherlock Holmes on movies or television? Is it as a Rathbone? Is it Jeremy Brett from the 80s? Is it Benedict Cumberbatch?
Who do you think is who's been the best and do you have a favorite? Well, my personal favorite is Jeremy Brett. I think he did just an incredible job in portraying the character. I put the asshole Rathbone a close second to Brett.
I think what really what kept the asshole back was he did not have the writers. These stories weren't as close to the original as Brett did. Brett did. He had this tremendous production company behind him whereas the serialization of some of the stories by the production company that Rathbone was working with.
They were more interested in entertainment and you have to remember when you and I saw those on WGN with commercials. They made a 90-minute segment for themselves out of a movie that was only about an hour and 10 minutes long. So there's that part of it as well. I don't know.
I upset a lot of my contemporaries by saying I like Cumberbatch. I do. I'm not real crazy about some of the ways that they've translated it into contemporary times. But I think it's very well done.
I think the productions are terrific. I think some of the writing is just outstanding. But having said that, I have some problems with it. But I think I am for these translations into contemporary times.
I like the old ones as well. I just like Holmes. I like Arthur Cohen Doyle. No matter who you like the best, it's interesting you ask that question because I had a newspaper interview with John Cass of the Chicago Tribune a couple of years ago in the same topic, who was the best.
He wrote about it and I think he came up with Brad being first at Rathbone. I don't know. I think someone that is not appreciated fully is Peter Cushing. Oh yeah.
I've seen Peter Cushing's version of the Houndo Daskerville. It's a tremendous, very edgy kind of production. I think he got William Shatner in it, we were not. Really?
Yeah. Isn't that from the 70s or the 80s, correct? Yeah. No, no, I was good there further than that.
I think it's the 60s. Oh wow. They may even be the 50s. Christopher Lee is in it as well.
Oh yeah. It's a very early version of the, but it's color and it's very well done. Outside of the, you know, Bay of the Rathbone version, I think that one has a lot going for it. It's a little bit more edgy than the Rathbone and it's got some qualities that the Rathbone one doesn't.
Seems like each generation had their William Gillette going way back to the early 1900s back then was, and Phil in many circles is thought of as, you know, the best portrayer of Sherlock Holmes. And didn't there, there was a silent film of his that was just recently, it was rediscovered and put out on Blu-ray too. I didn't know they put it on Blu-ray, but yeah, it's the only version that people had been looking for for years and years and years and years and they found it in a copy of it in France and some film vault and they were able to restore it and it's made the rounds. It was played here in Chicago.
I think it was a couple years ago. What a treasure. So I got one final question for you. For those who have never read Sherlock Holmes, where do you recommend they start?
What would be a first good story for them to say? If you want to get into Sherlock Holmes, read this one. I say start at the beginning. I mean, you don't shaft the start at the beginning, but I think it's always best to start at the beginning.
And you can find a study in Skylitz, which was his first novel with Sherlock Holmes in a compilation of Holmes called The Adventures of Sherlock Holmes. That I think would be the best way to start it because you get the the novel there, you get the short story from the first third, there are three of these compilations that were created and start with the first one. And I'm sure if you're any kind of fan of detective fiction or Holmes at all, you're going to be hooked if you haven't read it. Don, thank you so much.
I had such a pleasure talking to you. This was a blast. Thank you for doing this. Okay, my pleasure.
And that was my conversation with Donald Terris. To learn more about the Hounds of the Baskerville Sick, please visit their website at houndsofthebaskerville.org. I hope you've enjoyed this conversation on literature's greatest consulting deductive, Sherlock Holmes. I hope I've enticed you enough to go and pick up and read a Sherlock Holmes story.
If I may be so bold, I'd like to recommend the Five Orange Pips. That one's my favorite. I'm Peter Creighton, and thanks for listening. Thank you very much for listening to this WXAV 88.3 FM podcast.
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