Dragons

In the dead of night as people sleep that is when the spirits creep as the bell tolls three dark things take power we like to call it the supernatural hour and now so welcome to the supernatural hour podcast on your host Raven I'm Rogue this is doc and Chad's here I should be called grumpy Raven today maybe I'm grumpy maybe seeing no everyone's speech we don't even want to say anything girl scared yeah I'll go and we've got doc I can be grumpy oh there you go wow I need to grumpy I'll be happy happy happy rogue grumpy Raven I can be sleepy doc and then sleepy Chad probably we've got him so scared everybody now we're the dwarves supernet for more of us it works that's that's probably a good thing I had to I went Karen on somebody today I had a Karen moment we're okay it's not a Karen moment though if it's deserved she's moving through it okay slowly I hope so very slowly yeah I can do a pretty good Karen yeah I did actually said may I speak with your supervisor I'm like oh my word I'm Karen now okay we got it we got it figured out I'm not good but I'm not good so for the business we had our summer event for insiders at Rock Canyon Park and that was a lot of fun thanks for everybody that participated and brought things for the meal we had some delicious chicken everything was delicious yes everything there was not one thing there that was not delicious and I tried everything and I'm now like a beached well and there was lots of everything there was so much and then let's talk about what wrote to come with her crumb cookies and they were delicious a whole dozen okay you know how this works though right the correct way to eat a crumbal cookie is to eat the whole thing in one sitting holding in like 10 minutes then you feel sick for five hours like you want to die and then you recover that's the proper none of this cutting it in the forest and eating it over the course of oh yeah when you have 12 you do that and then you recover and then you go eat another one so you're doing it properly you can get like for a day down so I'm fully I shared thankfully Nicholas took the took one for the team the team didn't want to take no like four he I think the Nicholas ate his fair share yeah so if you are not from Utah and you've never heard of crumbal cookie you need a Utah friend oh they've been expanding man they're all over the place they haven't been Texas now really good okay find your local friend to send you and just imagine the biggest softest most delicious 25 bazillion calorie cookie you've ever had in your life this episode brought to you by crumbal we are not I should be yet as much as I buy I think I'm sponsoring with them you know what they're gonna do they're gonna send me cookie yeah probably 12 of them the sugar cookies the best one I'm gonna give you eating instructions whole thing just a few minutes you feel gross the rest of the day and then you survive that's a proper way for it all sorry so we had a great event we'll probably talk a little more about that when we get to the investigations but it was great to everybody out and spend time with people and we had a great time getting together you to get eat crumbal cookies with us if you become our patron maybe and we got to use our new mic for quite grumpy I wasn't grumpy that night though I'm not grumpy often it's very rare that I'm grumpy you're karaoke machine yeah and the pictures helped by that you'll never hear me sing on that thank you you're welcome to that too I had a little listen of my singing moment on our last podcast that was terrifying I will never do that again that's really yeah you sing on our last one just like one little sentence it was painful I apologize we're working on a September event we have a date we have a location we just need to jump one more little scheduling snafu so we will have that up on the website soon and that's looking towards the end of September that should be September 25th and as soon as everything checks out we'll get you more details and then we do have one that we did get scheduled so we can give you some actual information and that's petite neat school in pacing Utah it's my great school and that is on October 15th 15th and those are both Saturday nights the 15th of Friday okay the 15th is a Friday and the 25th of September is national ghost country did you know that that's why we want to get it on the 25th right exactly so did you know that today is national black can't date I actually saw something about that did you yeah we've got a striped cat does that count or do I need a loop cat let me halfway he's a fliffy yeah so October actually is looking to be really busy we're gonna be at the Paranormal Convention up in Logan October 9th then we will have a teeny school on October 15th okay so we've got things going with some upcoming investigations check out the events Paranormal dot com events page upcoming events page and it'll be there there'll be links to event right for tickets but spooky season is coming and it's always fun yes autumn is in the air for sure that brings spooky season I love it so let's talk about investigations all right so let's go to our rock Canyon investigation because that's about the only thing we've had going in the last week time flies we actually have two residential in the works I'm just waiting for them to call back and schedule it but rock Canyon I've been there twice now and it's not disappointed those times what did you think about how it went when we were there Friday Saturday Saturday in compares to being there in previous times I think it was a little bit better this last Friday Saturday really whatever day it was and what about this time was better than the last because this time so the first time we went we'd never been there before and you know so we had some stories that we found online of you know this this happened here that happened there but when we actually investigated it we wasted some time in areas whether this wasn't anything now and like as most go something maybe there was nothing there that night and maybe the next night it would just be freaky crazy haunted with rocks floating and twirling in the sky but instead this time we went to the same places that were active the first time we went right and just kind of got right into it kind of avoided the places where there was no activity so when we go again because we'll definitely go again you know I wouldn't mind trying out some of those other areas again I'm gonna wear better shoes just so you know because we're gonna go again and she really bombed me on the shoe thing don't wear tennis shoes at rock Canyon well she has to wear hiking boots it's like it's not hardcore hiking it's not work close to shoes and always started walking in stream beds dry stream beds right but you didn't like stilettos right no I just came in vans which no ankle support like no nothing and we went we went doing some natural hiking like they're wearing better shoes so what did you think of a canyon I thought that it was very interesting I think that we learned quite a bit using the SLS yes we found a spirit that needed or wanted help crossing over which I always enjoy helping that's something that I'm here for I liked being in an outdoor venue I've liked it in the past I like being outdoors with nature doing our hunts it's always enjoyable for me we ran into a type three this time that we did not run into the first time we were there okay so that's new yes it was new it smelled like urine right in that little alcove that we found yes and I think it was the same one that was messing with us when we were in that that big area where we talked about the car being parked right I think it was there messing with us and then Chuck and Kelly were at the pavilion and he was having his back with her knee a little bit that night so he had to sit down and rest for a minute and he said that while he was sitting there he felt rushed and well circled we like someone was circling him assessing him and then he felt rushed and I think it was that same spirit I think that type three was checking us all out what are you doing here and you know right with my space but it's kind of a wimpy type three right just kind of nosy you don't and Chuck got some very interesting SLS images in the pavilion when we were there next to the urn that's a god about the urn we have an urn where is the urn oh here on the desk right there just right with us so let's tell you about this urn so the member of our team her husband bought one of those mystery pallets you know just one of those pay five hundred dollars and you get what you get or 52 46 from Amazon and you just get whatever it is right I don't know how much you paid for this but as they're going through their pallet there's an urn short to it's beautiful I saw it you brought it to my workplace if you remember correctly right they were that excited they brought it in gosh yeah well no they brought me chicken I wasn't able to go to the rakania event and so I snuck out real quick over by the helicopters and I was like what the hell is this okay look at urn we got that's got human remains in it but we don't know anything else about it right yeah pretty sweet actually so I have gotten in contact with a couple different morticians and I know we're gonna take care of this appropriately but for now she's sitting on the desk what is the process is there a process um so the process is if you can't figure out it's you know where it comes from basically it's do what you want with it and I mean I had one guy say you can throw it in the trash if you want to that doesn't feel right because that's someone's loved one I mean that's the person you know they lived and had happiness and sadness and probably had their care and moments like I did today yeah I'm sure they didn't want to end up in a garbage can so right and so that's not what I'm planning on I mean it might happen but that's not what I'm planning on I mean it might happen but that's not what I'm planning on that's not your dying wishes please dispose of me in a garbage can so you know the answer was you can you know take the remains I guess you can unscrew it they just script really tight so you can't casually you know accidentally you know grandkids don't come over here so I guess we could really well open and go scatter the ashes somewhere or we could go take it to a mortuary and just say hey we found these don't have to do some you're down but they might say well I guess a lot of mortuaries actually have a little bestuaries with unclang dashes that people don't come and get and so but a mortuary they could say a mortuary could say yeah we did our job we don't want so worst case scenario will just go just scatter somewhere or bury it or something yeah it sounds respectful enough I give it a little ceremony give it a little I can play a nice and grace with my back oh my gosh yeah we're pretty sure it's a woman based on now's in rods and the fact that it's a floral urn so yeah and I don't know how much you know ashes the average human body produces but it seemed a dulfish that's my thought anyway yeah so anyway that's our urn story but by shaking it it seemed adult is it felt adult is because our other team member felt that it was youngish and she was freaking out that it's not dark care I don't know I mean oh so I'm like just not an educated guess there it's a good size urn it is not like a little one you know I thought like a kids are in would be a little smaller but yeah this is all conjecture okay all right specialist anyway so how do you have hacks right yeah it's only one of the morticians that I called actually has called me to do several funerals and I thought process was called to our three and you know get lots of answers and kind of triangulate on you know what is it like the internet you know you tend to put articles if it says something on all ten of them you figure it might be you know the best thing so I called this one who calls me a lot to play for funerals and I said hey when you have a second I have a question for you and he goes well that's a strange turn of events you calling me and I said oh you have no how strange this is going to be we came into position of an urn that was about online I just want someone's in trouble where's grandma seriously hopefully somebody's in trouble oh anyway but the SLS that Chuck got was a spirit touching the urn and you have to be careful we've talked about this a little bit before you've got to be careful with SLS because sometimes it likes to try to focus in on a chair or a light or something or the bushes the bushes but this one wasn't on anything yeah it's on a picnic table it's on a picnic table but the head was above the picnic table the feet were below the end the hand was reaching I mean you can if you work with the SLS a lot you can start to tell when it's trying to make a chair no person or when there's actually something there so did we capture it yeah excellent do we have that photo up somewhere or anything not yet not yet I have not seen it is a good one to get a touch absolutely oh yeah so what else was wrong anything else I got some interesting pictures but I need to look at again before I send them out to make sure that it's not bugs but I've got some some interesting streaks on some photos we had people that were getting touched yes we have one of our patreons that gets touched almost every time he comes out and rock Canyon was no different right and it's not just attention thinking it's I mean you can tell oh yeah he's sensitive it's legit yeah he's legitimately getting touched so yeah so we had fun kind of a midnight hike and it was breezy it felt cool yeah it was it was a great night it really was nice once we got rid of the chicken with the wasps there's a lot the wasps like the chicken the wasps were bad and they really liked crumble anybody likes who doesn't like you right they were bad though those were terrible so next time we go we'll bring some hospice yes or something some spray but they just hung out by the food so if you could if you could dodge them to get your food then the rest of the night was pleasant today we're talking about dragons and I'm actually super excited about dragons yeah you look prepared you got a stack of notes there I have six pages of notes thank you I'm really dragging this thing up oh jeez dragons from again those 10 websites I think are by far the most mythical creature yes someone what's a mythical creature I think the likelihood of someone saying dragon yeah unicorn dragon mermaid right maybe those three I mean if you think you're gonna start getting things like hypocrites and manicors and stuff like that but I think dragons gonna be one of your top two because they're on the flags of British Isles countries exactly it's dragons and uniforms well the thing I find interesting everywhere else in the world matter I was just gonna say the thing about dragons is it's everywhere every culture has them on the Americas Europe India China everybody everybody has dragons and so that makes you go that might mean something why does everybody have dragons and they're not even like going back to a medieval invention or medieval they go clear back to the beginnings of Samaria and Babylon and you know all the way back some of the very earliest things are dragons servants and dragons yeah from what I could tell they couldn't really say it started here but like you said you know the Greeks and the Sumerians is as far back as it goes and I would almost wonder China China goes back way back way back so I would just throw China now I did see one thing that said that was quite interesting is with like the cave paintings and things like that dragons aren't included in cave paintings in any of the cave paintings so right primitive man that it hadn't evolved into a dragon lore there where you'll see you know eagles and snakes and you know rhinoceros and elephants and different things in the different caves buffalo those kinds of things but dragons are not found in cave paintings from prehistoric man you can surmise that as you will so because the dragons died out for cave paintings if cave paintings come after dragon right one of the one of the theories that I came across was that some of these cultures discovered dinosaur bones and weren't quite sure what they were they just noticed that they're these giant lizard things with teeth and I don't know that primitive man doing cave paintings were doing like mining or anything like that where they would have encountered fossilized bones later with more civilizations for war and stuff that they would come across these right and the word dragon or dragon the word dinosaur didn't even come about until like 1921 or something like that much more modern term for sure modern dinosaurs a very modern term however fossils have been found going quite a ways back and like you say people may have found like triceratops skulls and things like that the only way they could explain those would be dragons some giant lizard monster something I found interesting was dragons it ran the gamut sometimes they were useful protective sometimes they were harmful and dangerous but when Christianity really started to blossom they were the ones that took on or assigned dragons you know sinister role you know it's being evil and it came to represent Satan and in medieval times most of the people in the Bible and it said that at the time medieval time that a lot of Christians probably believed in literal actual dragons and this could go I think that my personal opinion is that dragons were dinosaurs and people can argue with me people can think I'm crazy but if you read about Leviathan what that they talk about in the book of Jacob chapter 41 sounds like a dragon listen to this and I shall I shall quote it's back has rows of shields tightly sealed together each is so close to the next that no air can pass between they're joined fast to one other they cling together and cannot be parted it's snorting throws out flashes of light its eyes are like the rays of dawn flame stream from its mouth sparks of fire shoot out smoke pours from its nostrils as from a boiling pot over burning reads its breath sets colds ablaze and flames start from its mouth now that doesn't sound like the King James version of Jake of Job to me I don't know what version this is no real translation or something probably doesn't say which which version of the Bible comes from but that sounds like a dragon to me sounds a lot like a dragon absolutely and another biblical reference was the behemoth which is been ascribed as a dragon also and there's you know more about Leviathan is in relations to right even in relation they talk about the the pit to hell is basically the mouth of the dragon as well right I dealt a little deeper into the religious aspect for just a minute I mean Genesis it tells us that on day five of creation God created great sea creatures and Hebrews use the word tenonim and so this particular person that wrote this decided that this would have included swimming pleosores the flying pterodactyls which we might have called dragons if you're kind of on board with me of dragons being dinosaurs it says God made land animals including dinosaurs and other land dragons on day six the day he created man so this line of thinking has men and dinosaurs and dragons being created at the same time and so men living with dragons which would lend to believe how it got spread over the world if you're living within your children stories about them you're passing those stories down to your children and then it gets crazy there's a lot of a lot of symbolism of dragons in general and a lot of that ties back to these Christian references you know when we think of dragons we just think of this raw natural power right destroying power and when you start looking back symbolically you know there's always man being at war with dragons you look at the painting or famous picture of St. George who's over the top of the dragon painting we're slaying the dragon one of the things that you'll see preconistently is that dragons represent the dark aspect of feminine nature and so you look at for example when in play role as creator but you can also see them in the role as destroyer and so there's kind of those two sides to the feminine aspect the the natural aspect the ability to create life those kinds of things that is the power of creation but they also have the destroying power so you kind of see those two things together this plays out a lot throughout fairy tales and it plays out a lot throughout like biblical references to that the dragon is kind of our natural inclination that that natural raw power to to be dangerous to destroy etc right that goes back to the word Tannen where in Hebrew it says the Hebrew word Tannen is defined by the enhanced brown driver Riggs Hebrew and English lexicon that's a mouthful as serpent dragon sea monster says it probably likely refers to certain reptiles including giant marine creatures but it can be translated and denoting a dragon which can potentially refer to dinosaurs but most likely it means serpent which is often ascribed to the dark forces well in when I'm referring feminine energies for example you see this in fairy tales if you go back to the story of sleeping beauty and Maleficent what does she turn into she's fighting Prince Philip a dragon if you look at the name of thrones and you have Daenerys who starts out as kind of that like positive gentle tinted feminine nature and it develops into this powerful raw physical nature becomes the mother of dragons and spoiler alert if you haven't seen Game of Thrones yet that nature that she eventually gives into that destroys her as well that makes sense she ends up she ends up caving to that power that raw natural power and it's interesting to see these references because generally where women or the feminine nature is kind of perceived that way as being either positive creative gentle and loving or negative destructive and dark that would be me today yeah Karen's by the way you want to talk about dragons we got Karen's usually the masculine energies which are you know more geared towards enlightenment and adventure and pursuit are the ones that usually come in and are involved in teaming the dragon in all of these stories sleeping beauty for example is a really good example it's just an incredible archetypal symbol that I don't think people get the whole story of sleeping beauty is about parents that are being overprotective of their daughter they refused to let her see the bad things in the world right that's why Maleficent wasn't invited to her christening right because Maleficent was dark and bad and so the family the parents were trying to shield her from the dark forces of the world so she would know nothing about them in return when she becomes old enough to become adult age to have to deal with adult problems she has no exposure to these things and she essentially becomes sleepy she falls asleep and is like she can't handle it so she checks out and that's the curse that Maleficent put on her right was essentially she's cursed to have basically ignorance to this whole idea that there's badness in the world and it's Prince Philip who represents the enlightenment right that's to come and awaken sleeping beauty that the mind to the realities of the world and it's that that that pushes the pursuit into the dark that leads to overcoming the dragon and leads to the right term for this growth and advancement and so you know you see that play out in sleeping beauty from start to finish and whole moral the story is you need to teach your kids to deal with hard things because if you don't there's gonna be problems they won't be able to function they won't function with adults and so kind of an odd thing but the dragon there represents the dark aspects of nature of reality of the things we have to deal with they don't want you sometimes so I actually ran across something similar ish says we're dragon came from the ancient Greek dracota which means to watch you know suggesting that he's a guardian something and you think about it in the Hobbit you know the dragon is guarding you know guarding his stuff but they're so powerful well and even Harry Potter you know Harry they put the dragon inside Gringuts right so protect but they're so powerful why would they need to protect these coins and gems they don't they're not any money right what do they need to pay for you know dragons gonna come walking up and hand you a few coins and say I'm like no they're just gonna fry your face off right take it why do they need to do that so it's probably more of a symbolic treasure not hoarding for the dragon but a reward for the brave knights that go and slay the dragon right reward for slain evil slain that serpent slain Satan that's absolutely right it is that willingness to put yourself at risk to do things you haven't done to attend things that are big and scary that lead to you in the end finding the treasure or being able to to get the treasure you have to go through the dragon that is a life lesson as well and if you think of all the mythical creatures out there dragons are one of the few maybe a man of corn and the names of the ones are escaping me but dragons are one of the few and I think if you were to put a hierarchy you're gonna put dragon at the top because they can fly and be fired oh yeah you know powerful but a lot of these mythical creatures like trolls elves fairies I mean they will interact with humans but you're not usually trying to vanquish the fairy you know right we have a flash flip warring today so that was a little kaboomaboom that was intense but right and you know for the most part when it comes to dragons most of the time it's an individual that goes to slay the dragon right it's not necessarily like oh happenstance I ran into a dragon it's usually some type of planned event where you know there's that pursuit where you prepare and you take on a really big challenge and you get the reward at the end right and it's usually an individual situation it's not like we sent the armies out against the dragon and sometimes they will unsuccessfully well I mean it takes an individual to actually pull it off in most of the mythology like even in Shrek it was donkey that's right the dragon all by his onesie also feminine by the way so we talked about it a little bit earlier but one of the most chronicled that we hear about is Saint George the dragon Slayer and what does he do he comes up on a town the town's threatened by a dragon he rescues the fair maiden he protects himself with a side of cross because you know the dragon is representing Satan he slays the dragon gets the princess and symbolically there too you can talk about if the dragon represents nature Saint George represents culture and this like this battle between Saint George and the dragon is basically culture versus nature spirit versus for physical however you want to view it that way it's about being able to overcome our nature with things like culture and you know by overcoming it's not necessarily about slightly people use the term slang the dragon a lot a lot of us about taming the dragon because every one of us we have a dragon inside of each and every one of us whether you want to call it you know your shadow person or whatever we all have your demon whatever you want to call it we all have that same potential so when we were talking about dragons representing that raw natural power that destructive power we all have power to destroy right and by slaying the dragon or by taming the dragon that's what gives us power as well because we're able to overcome our natural state we're able to overcome our carnal wants in pursuit of more virtuous things I suppose but at the same time you still have that potential to be dangerous and that's what makes you effective and the thing I think is interesting about that is the descriptions of dragons very so dramatically you can cater it to whatever works for you I mean some have wings some don't some can talk some can raise fire some are huge some little some of the oceans some little volcano I mean there's such a variety right depending on what aspect you're trying to convey they'll focus on things like the ones that breathe fire a lot of times people will see that symbolically as passions right fire breathing so when I was looking into all of this though there's five videos that I ran across on the infamous YouTube of actual dragons of videos of like ones that's slithering just in a cave I don't know maybe it's maybe 16 inches to ones that are flying away that are landing on a wild post so as you're talking about dragons you're putting them in a theory of it being the symbology of it yes but in action I mean some people out there believing that there's a physical right so did you come across any of those videos what do you think about so that because I mean the one that's in the cave of a little slithering thing that's like 18 inches I don't know what that thing is I guess I have little arms and legs right I guess it depends on what you're gonna define as a dragon right I mean we have Komodo dragons right and that's the other thing is we do have dragons if that's how we wanted to find clothes right I guess it depends on a matter of definition well it's interesting you know people say oh you know fly everything dragons you know nothing very star that's that's garbage but it's interesting there are there's certain beetles that shoot out a burning chemical you know and whether that's an actual visual they light up or if it's you know just hot it burns when it touches you right I mean you know things as lore gets exaggerated and you know if you're a big tough guy and beetle comes up and spits on you hurt you know it's going to be a dragon that's fire the story is getting embellished right giant people so something I think is is interesting on that along the same lines of fire breathing those elements come from a lot of medieval depictions of dragons there's an arc by Dutch painter named I'm gonna butcher this here row here Ronimus Bosch here Ronimus Bosch that's what I'm going with my story I'm sticking to it and a lot of times he's dragons to pick hell and the way he draws these entrance to hell is depicted in the monster's actual mouth with the flames and the smoke you know being the characteristics of Hades belching out from the bowels of those dragon these aren't sound effects by the way this is real thunder maybe it's dragons it could be it could be just because that would be weird that would be Chinese culture with the dragons bringing the rain exactly yeah there's a big focus with water from when I was reading as well and kind of the Chinese dragon myths as well they're not quite as not viewed in quite the same negative ways you see in a lot of the western world or in you know the Christian view yeah there's two different real cultural trains of thought there with the Chinese and the eastern dragons more representing wisdom luck positive attributes they were that the emperors associated themselves with the dragons as a positive thing people believe that to be you know wisdom and all the good qualities you know you're not the other dragon the different things in the Chinese culture and East Asian culture with dragons is a lot different than the western culture with the slain of the dragon and the dragon representing evil yeah and if you were to say to me you know what are the top three cultures of dragons that you think of I personally would say China whales yeah western Europe you know castles and jostles and then Aztecs South America yeah yeah with their dragons yes yes yeah as they're always down right because if you look at the Maya in Mexico and then down into Guatemala and even further south to get more of that Central America absolutely cross cultural you know with diverse groups of people that had no contact with you know may have little different representations it's not like they were hopping on airplanes you know talking about it with each other I mean they came up with these all on their own right well and you know we were talking about with you know Eastern or Chinese culture you know that's they had a very positive view of dragons and then if you look at Aztec and Maya culture same idea right they these are symbols of wisdom these are simply these are their gods essentially and even I mean I go to a lot of backpacks competitions right come back there and you don't see this very often but every once in a while there's somebody that dresses up in a red dragon custom to represent whales and they walk around to the sky that's the Scottish festival yes so you know like backpacks it doesn't play backpacks you just won or so I see just whales representing a Scottish festival that's all you know the story behind the red dragon no I think I've heard it but I don't remember it you know it's a Merlin story and Merlin was working with a king and they didn't say the name of the dark the penderagor which but he was working with the king and they were trying to build a castle the foundations of the castles that really kept going apart Merlin was called into trying to determine what's going on and he determined that there was a lake under the castle and there were two dragons there was a red dragon and a white dragon and the red dragon represents has become to represent whales and the wilt's people the white dragon represented the English accents or what became English and they were in a constant battle and be at the beginning the white dragon became predominant over the red dragon but they said that would only last for a while and the myth and the story is that the red dragon will prevail eventually and that's why they have the red dragon on the watch fly okay I'm gonna go off the subject here for just a second so the Welch their national animal is the dragon and the Scottish national animal is a unicorn oh and they're both represented on the Scottish coat of arms I don't know if it's on the Scottish flag is a queen flag I think it's a queen flag I didn't research flag but I've seen the image of that I don't know if it's the queen's flag it's not the Scottish because the Scottish flag is the blue with the white cross-ex right right they don't have their unicorn symbol on their flag but it's their national animal that's interesting since we were just talking about you know unicorns and dragons are probably you're right well it's there's there's a joke where England you know because England's is the rampant line right now like okay you pick one and well says I'll pick a dragon it's really then Scotland says unicorn England is like oh guys come on goes with a lion and they go there haven't been any here for two thousand years yeah okay back to actual dragons I was gonna add with the you know the focus with Central America and that when I went down to Chichen It's in the Mexico one of the things I mentioned is the conquistadors were coming through and they saw these temples that were dedicated to servants their first thought was oh there's evil there's a mechanic this is devil worship and so they basically enslaved the natives forced them to dismantle their temples and build cathedrals in their stead and one of the big driving factors to that was the fact that they did have all these carvings of serpents and you know when we were just talking about that Christian view of dragons or serpents conquistors instantly associated with something nefarious or something evil so they forced them to dismantle their temples for that reason yeah and for a while you know people use the dragon as neither good nor bad but as a as a rally call you know for armies and they had they're used in his decorations they have you know they possess protective and terror inspiring qualities you know who wants to be the you know the mosquitoes you want to be the Mardi dragons right and so they were used as warlock emblems so in the story of King Agamemnon from the Iliad on his shield he had a blue three-headed snake and you know what's the snake well you know we talk about the snake being the serpent dragon has been the serpent and then the Norse warriors would paint dragons on their shields and dragon heads on their ships right this kind of goes back to that idea of teaming the dragon or slaying the dragon it still has to be present right if you eliminate your potential to cause harm as an army you're not very threatening but when you can control the dragon and you know when to unleash the dragon you become a very dangerous thing because you can take your raw power and you can apply it with focus and discipline and you become a much more formidable foe when people know this guy's going to unleash the dragon on me holy crap and in addition to that there's the psychological work aspect of that of not even doing that I mean it got to the point with the Vikings that they'd pull into port and people just bring the money down and here you go not worth my time don't don't kill us here's here's here's the money see you see in a yard but they adopt that symbol because it's like hey I I control my dragon and I can unleash my dragon when I choose and people respect that because guess what if they if they didn't have that dark side to them they wouldn't give them money they wouldn't win the war they wouldn't have the respect right so you have to learn to tame your dragon I kind of wanted to train your dragon had it seen how to train your dragon guys come on what happened after that nobody's gonna screw with you when you got dragons come on so I kind of interesting going back to you know the dragons being the feminine little tidbit that I found was in the Chinese dragon lore lung which represents the Yang or the principle of heaven and the maleness in the yin Yang and Chinese cosmology is actually the dragon and the one that was on their flag until 1911 that makes a lot of sense to me when we were speaking about Eastern cultures having more of the alignment with royalty and those symbols of good fortune and luck and all that is that they may associate dragons with masculine energy instead of the you know the natural energies or the darker energies that's interesting and then an interesting thing I found out I said both Chinese and Japanese dragons even though they are regarded as powers of the air are usually depicted wingless mmm-hmm you're not gonna see wings as much on the Chinese or Japanese dragon if at all again I'm not a dragonologist not a dragonologist we're right they seem they tend to be more slender at least from what I've seen in the depictions the serpent like with claws and legs but not so much wings right where I think except for in the lawn where they put those little eating wings on it you watch so many movies every single movie you've referenced today you have no idea I have not watched them but I trust you all you're telling me the truth okay so I'm gonna give you a little I wrote this down because it's interesting sometimes people get really out there so what happened to the dragons if you like me and you think that dragons was just how you explained dinosaurs then they died I think they died in those flood people believe they were killed by stuff I'm going to the best really we're going with the media I go for fun but that's what I think but that asteroid made a big flood I'm sure it did not ripple effect was pretty intense yeah we're not here to argue theology but it says there's one fellow who had a theory that land and air dragons would have been taken on Noah's Ark and probably existed for some time afterwards based on the descriptions we've seen the Bible and artifacts and legends worldwide they died out due in the they died out due to the curse of sin the rogues face right now is priceless like what I don't think dragons are on the arc I'm just gonna start that out there yeah me either people say well how did they get the story as well Noah land dragons what were those little dragons we were talking about earlier today moto drags maybe it was a couple of those that's right bearded dragons but this fellow decided that they died out due to the curse of sin did they because they were carrying the sins of others that's a that was just like simple like sorry dragons you're no good here you're out of here the curse of sin be done yeah so just sin so I wanted to touch just a little bit on that most most civilizations have a dragon culture we kind of talked on that a little bit but some of the some of popular stories along those with the cultures is you know we talked about Zeus he has a dragon story related to Zeus and him winning the drag you know beating the dragon with the use of his thunderbolts Jason and Jason and the Argonauts and the Golden Fleece and the there with the Greeks you've got Beowulf with the Norse and the fighting of the dragon there where he was killed by the dragon and Sigar the game with the Norse that we've got lots of dragon stories that are that are still very popular in culture in our cultures across the you know across the world in different places and they're almost always almost always an individual like you said it goes in pursuit to fight the dragon right and most of the time they'll like it's just involically it's an idea of culture versus nature yeah and it wasn't until the early 1900s that dragons started becoming child literature child-friendly being there and you think you know a little bit about that he's dragon like Pete's dragon like Pete's dragon have you seen a rogue have you seen Pete's dragon I think maybe one is younger tough that's a magic track don't make me sing the song I promise I can say I don't know I don't don't don't do it but yeah and then there was a book and I didn't write down the thing but one of the very first ones that came out in like 1919 or 1910 about the dragon and it was a little boy about and the dragon and Saint George and a little way you know explain to Saint George that the dragon wasn't really bad this dragon like poetry and was a good dragon it's nice and Saint George actually they they worked it out with the dragon and the dragon faked his own death because the pounds people wanted the dragon killed of course because you know he's he was demanding human sacrifice I mean I probably want that thing eliminated as well this was a friendly dragon but anyway interesting because that was the beginning of more of that where dragons become things were you know do any of your kids have dragon plushies where they have a dragon dragons have become very giant dragon plushie and the ownership of this plushie is debated often debated it's almost like that mentality of you know taming your dragon or controlling your dragon is kind of shifted there which like not about under destruction and again a movie how to try your dragon you know again the dragons have moved from that that sinister right they're causing a problem for you to now being right it's the same thing about our natural desires and our natural potential right it can if you succumb to it you are gonna make bad decisions it's gonna be damaging they're gonna be damaging to you you know so that dragon is gonna be harmful to you until you learn to control in which case you become empowered you become stronger it's interesting I want to throw out just a little thing we've kind of talked about you know dragons being serpents and dragons being Satan and dragons being dinosaurs there is a thought process out there that dinosaur or that sort of dragons are elephants or hippopotamus I guess in some translations of the Bible in the footnotes of joke 40 is listed elephant or hippopotamus when I was dragon but it says let's look anyways like let's look at the hemat right and talk about behemoth and it describes behemoth as eats grass like an ox and moves his tail like a cedar with bones that are like beams of bronze and so some people say that that describes an elephant a hippopotamus or even a brachy source so we just jump from those two third though I can't support that theory so I can't either I can't accept the brachy source theory but not the elephant I read once not in the last preparing for this podcast and I don't it could have been on the history channel I really don't know where the source came from but it came to mind today when I was thinking about this that way back in the day that a comet was going through the sky and the Greeks seen this comet and they were the first to call that comet a dragon because of the fire in the flames shooting through the sky that's a good right it flies it breathes fire exactly how's it tell so you had a little blurb about gargoyles and dragons yeah and so did wrote you cover that road go ahead okay there's one of one of the dragons and this is in in Europe there was a community that was building a church and in this area there had been a dragon that was getting the problems and and it was called dark the dragon was named Gardel but they did and I don't believe it was St. George but it was a saint you know someone that had come through and I came through and actually you know defeated the dragon and killed the dragon and so when they built the church they used the the gargled dragon for the downspouts of the water and that's where the gargoyles come from that's where the idea of the gargoyles on the medieval churches of all was from this tale of the the dragon being slayed and then representing right being represented on the church and and gargoyles now they use them as a protector protector to ward off right I was just gonna say that we were at the Rowlands Museum last summer we took we took a trip out to South Dakota we stopped at the Rowlands Museum in Wyoming on the way and in one of the backgrounds now a couple of several years ago our whole group just as a group went out and investigated there and I didn't notice this there at that time but we noticed it just taking the regular job load tour and in was it the cafeteria they actually had a gargoyle there because and I asked the gallibatic I knew that it was there to ward off evil spirits I'm just like what's what was it what's the gargoyle I wanted to hear her story and she said they had a lot of activity in that room I mean I don't think we investigated in that room but I did the reactivity of the building so they put up a gargoyle there's a gargoyle in the Rowlands Museum I'm going through my pictures of the Rowlands Museum right now looking for the kids to see if I have a picture of it so here's one more because I like it when Rogue makes that face is kind of awesome that's that really yes so we talked about what happened to the dragons and Noah's Ark that didn't go over well drove the person who wrote this bluster heart and you know it's gonna be bad if you have to say bless your heart right but he said or she I don't know who wrote this actually but it said also man most likely played a role in the demise of dragons as we read in the legend of dragon slayers oh just all those guys going out just even on the dragons there it is they'd still be here as St George wasn't such a jerk exactly well he honestly back to that you know this idea of chasing out the dragons or slaying the dragons the story St. Patrick chasing the serpents out of Ireland is a very similar arcist to cat it's this idea of reading yourself of the bad evil dragons well and the same fellow kind of he ended his little little blurb kind of on that same thing he says we have a very real enemy who was called a dragon you know you give script reference history led the human race in the sin and he's still deceiving and devouring today he's referencing Satan I presume he says you cannot defeat the dragon of your own you need Jesus I mean however it is you are going to defeat your personal dragons works for you serpents they're not always negative I mean yeah the Garden of Eden you got the serpent there who tempts II the telekalgamesh back in the Sumerian stuff same thing there was a serpent right but they like mice your gardens right but if you look at other symbols I mean even in the Bible you got the brazen serpent which was a positive symbol that he can look upon and not die and be Satan right you know what my favorite snake is what's your favorite snake in Ohio they have the mound builders what are they called the Hopewell people and they there's one called serpent mound and they don't know really why it's there what it's there I've got my theories but it has no place on this podcast bad theory so this gets back to the ancient American you know right but it's a it's just a to really see it you have to kind of climb up in this little tower that they've got hmm how is a word no it's a tower it's it's gonna be 40 feet tall platform platforms we just climb up this ladder on this platform and you can see it it's just this wiggly little snake and he's eating a nake and there's all sorts of theories of what it is and light is and I've been there yeah back to serpents to which is kind of interesting part of the reason that some people you know have a hypothesis of the dragons and snakes is that early primates have always they developed a lot of their motor functions to be able to identify snakes to protect themselves from snakes because that's one of the snakes were one of the very very earliest predators along the timeline right threats to mankind right and we're even talking back even before mankind like you know just right after the dinosaurs with the little furry ancestors with evolution that evolved into mankind but the idea of that they built into that and our people have a fear of snakes that's one of the primary phobias almost everybody has right is a there's a fear of snakes even if you like snakes a lot of people will shut her a little bit when they hold them and handle them even when they're their pets and this goes back to it it's it's an action that your brain clicks into and recognizes that threat even before you think about it it's like blinking when something's coming that you're right it's a reflex essentially and that's one of the standard things that most people have and it gets really interesting because when you look at this in Madagascar there are no snakes and lemurs like while all of the other primates have these kinds of reactions with snakes lemurs don't right because there was no evolutionary reason for them to fear snakes right and they didn't develop the eyesight acuity of other primates because of that so it's really interesting so if you go back to the story of the garden of Eden okay back to your point about not having the eyesight to acknowledge to the other sea it's the serpent who opens the eyes of mankind right to help them see the difference between good and evil or good and bad and you know from a deep deep way back reference the idea is that the primitive man learned to see and understand and acknowledge good and bad through that exact same development that reflects so I thought that was a really interesting thing where they talked about it and the other one is the idea of the dragon and what it is because the three primary predators of early man would have been snakes raptors and when I say raptors birds and holes and carnivores like lions and tigers and bears and what would a dragon be hey let's see a lot of those look like flying snakes with wings and claws and some of them sometimes have bodies like lions and it's an amalgamation of these of our fears yeah of these threats yeah absolutely and and it's pervasive in all cultures because it's a pervasive thing for everybody because those are the things we're freaking scared of scared of spiders yeah we didn't get that one in there we probably were eating spiders back we didn't care that was probably lunch yeah I'm so gross way to put that all together we're not scared of spiders all right I think we're gonna end on that no all right um it's my turn for bucket list I went to the bucket list in forever I took a hell last time so so this bucket list though is a little more ambiguous I want to stumble upon something that nobody's found before and I'll give you an example I knew somebody who knew somebody it's gonna be one of those friends yeah it was actually the uncle of an ex-husband so a little more even more distant than friend of a friend oh my goodness but he lived in the Roosevelt doucheini area and it's called doucheini not doucheini not douche shasney not douchezny and the story goes that he was tooling around out in the desert out there where there's a lot of it yes where there's a whole lot of nothing out there and dinosaur bones there are dying sore bones so maybe there's dragons but he found this little cave and inside the cave and he swears up and down to do I don't know if he's still alive but to his dying day that the last time I knew of him he swore that this was true but he found a little cave and inside the cave were some old baskets of rolled up parchment and some of this I don't remember everything there might have been like a couple baskets of coins and stuff but he left it and he thought I'm gonna come back here and you know when I've got like a wagon or a car I don't know what you take out the desert horse you know and bring this back in and you know delve into this a little bit more but then he can never find it again and I don't know if he actually couldn't find it again or if he just told you he couldn't find it yeah I don't know but that would be cool that would be cool to find King Tuts to him would be the first person to find that or to run into that cave that nobody has found yet did he get any of the parchment and you open it up right now so someone in Duchain is a cave is a cave with a basket apartment points and coins isn't it like the Dutchman's gold and Duchain I think that I've been flying for that superstition mountain yeah Arizona yeah the Tucson area yeah Tucson and even kind of south and Phoenix kind of down through those superstitions are basically on the way down to Tucson so that would be my bucket list because I think if you found something like that they would probably be paranormal activity to investigate not bad so a little ambiguous but that's that would be a lot to it outside of just the paranormal activity I mean finding something that would be really cool yeah so I'll give you a little example not far from my house is a cave called Timpanoagus Cave and I hike it with a friend regularly and it's a steep hike I mean you can take it but all the time you see people look at you know with their moms it's there's there's some drop-offs it's a paved trail I mean there's a lot of switch national monument you have to get tickets they're sold out you got to get them away in advance it's a doable but it's not an easy hike it's about a mile one way and switchbacks like crazy in this one mile you're gonna go you're gonna raise like 2,500 feet in elevation it's up there it's a good workout which is why I do it about once a week but I got up there one day and there's a ranger there and we got chatting with him and I said how on earth did someone find this who just decided I'm gonna walk up the steep mountain and look for a cave and he says well the story is that he was looking for wood and I'm like and there's not wood wasn't what two thousand feet down in the canyon and the the ranger look at it and he goes well that's the story because I think there might have been a little treasure hunting going on in real life apparently so my wife's I don't know great great great grandpa was the guy who discovered to the Nogas cave table he was looking for treasure he was not looking for wood no there's not a wood right up there well there are like down further yeah if you know what I'm saying you know what would stay down the canyon go up cut it down and then drag it down the two miles I can understand it if all the wood below is already gone yeah but it was still there I don't know the wood story seems suspect just saying so something handsome I remember his last first name was but I heard he was looking for a cougar not a girl no I think like man I need someone let's go late 40s cave woman late 40s cave woman that's what I need all right so jumper last time it was kind of serious so today I found something a little more light hearted down he only who Charles Dickens is yes and we know that antique mirrors can be kind of creepy even mirrors can be yes and I have a mirror issue yes one of these days we need to do a new mirror episode we did one ages and ages ago what we do mirrors because mirrors are fascinating there is a haunted mirror and it is in the tree Mont Temple in Boston and it's haunted by the ghost of Charles Dickens okay how did we know that was the tree Mont Temple in Boston there is a rock temple possibly a curious saga I'm listening to you like to your research I'm gonna Google it's really quick for me so it's a it's a floor-length mirror and it originally hung in a room at the Omni Parker House Hotel and we have been there we have been there and they have really good I'm chowder chowder rolls Parker House rolls that's where they were invented and that's also where Boston Green Pie was invented this has the tree Mont Temple Baptist Church okay so it's a Baptist temple did not know the Baptist had pimples it's a Baptist Church but they called it okay so apparently Dickens stayed in the Omni Parker House Hotel in 1867 and 1868 he was you know doing a tour and you know doing public readings of his work right and he was particularly kind of caught up in the Christmas carol at the time and kind of pushing that a lot and people said that when they walked past his room they could hear him practicing and reciting and probably I should do more of that before I podcast but a lot of people think that the ghost of Dickens is still there and is embedded in this mirror so Omni Parker House Hotel is one of the more haunted places in Boston and we didn't actually go stuff there and we couldn't get in on the haunted floor as far as staying there but we went there and produced the halls surreptitiously and ghost hunted we had our K2 meter yes we did we go something on the slide and people say that the part the Omni Parker House was the inspiration for Stephen King's 1408 and it's a very no-so-tell right I would recommend it if you get the opportunity and rumor has it there's quite a few famous ghosts which it doesn't really name because this is about Dickens but the most famous story that involves Dickens is the hotel elevator there's a lot of guests that say that the elevator stops mysteriously on the third floor of the hotel and that's the floor where Dickens would you know paces room and do his practicing but it will stop there even if nobody hits the elevator will just go there so a lot of people think that the ghost is just heading back to his room they say if you say the words to the Christmas Carol out loud that he will appear in the mirror and then if you talk to him if you're like hey Chuckie then he disappears so he appears in the mirror the haunted mirror actually stayed in the suite in the Omni Parker House hotel for several years oh here it says and then it was transferred a few blocks away to the three-month temple and Baptist Church so if you go to the three-month temple Baptist Church in Boston make sure you go to the second floor if you walk to the very very end of the hall you'll see they say it's a really kind of an unassuming mirror floor link that's hanging on the wall with a plaque that reads mirror from the rooms at the Parker House occupied by Charles Dickens look closely and see reflections of Dickens as he practiced at Christmas Carol in the church they're like hey sweet ghost right here this chair is haunted by the spirit of pretty young it was I hope that our church it should probably shut it would bring in more but the the writer of the article says here's hoping that one day the mirror will find itself back in its original home at the Parker House so it can be reunited with the famously haunted suite on the third floor but apparently it's happy at the dream that temple Baptist Church I mean they owned it like I said it but a plaque up so yeah I mean they did do a plaque that says come see the ghost so I love it just as I say if you want to visit with Charles Dickens just go stare at the mirror don't talk to him though because they'll disappear look but don't touch you'll come but you watch out that's very interesting hey thanks for listening get your supernatural hours away I get advanced paranormal calm it's cool time getting up oh my goodness that's right my kids go back tomorrow so yeah you 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