Hey, Ontario, come on down to Bet MGM Casino and see what our newest exclusive, The Price Is Right Fortune Pick, has to offer. Don't miss out. Play exciting casino games based on the iconic game show, only at Bet MGM. Check out how we've reimagined three of the show's iconic games, like Plinko, Cliffhanger, and the Big Wheel into fun casino game features.
Don't forget to download the Bet MGM Casino app for exclusive access and excitement on The Price Is Right Fortune Pick. Pull up a seat and experience The Price Is Right Fortune Pick, only available at Bet MGM Casino. Bet MGM and GameSense remind you to play responsibly. 19 plus to Hager, Ontario only.
Please play responsibly. If you have questions or concerns about your gambling or someone close to you, please contact Connects Ontario at 1-866-531-2600 to speak to an advisor free of charge. Bet MGM operates pursuant to an operating agreement with iGaming Ontario. I'm not ashamed to say that Pick My Brain sessions are helping you all, the community, the listeners, the women that I intended to help when creating these sessions.
I'm also not ashamed to say that every single session, someone walks away with a ha moment. Sometimes you just need that extra little bit of information, that extra little push to get you on the other side, from where you are to where you want to be. One of our recent Pick My Brain sessions was with Katherine Hall. Okay, a Katherine underscore on Instagram.
Now, Katherine was asked after her session, during your session, that you gained insights, knowledge, or tools that you didn't have before. Katherine said, yes, the session with Ayanna made me feel relieved and inspired. Her questions made me realize what's most important when deciding to take the next step. It wasn't just the advice that was great.
Ayanna also gave me steps to take. These clear and concise steps will foster the goal that I want to achieve. There's absolutely nothing wrong with enlisting a little help to get you to the next level. If you are interested in learning more about the 60 minute one-on-one Pick My Brain sessions, head over to SwitchPaveterQuit.com now.
Hey, girl, hey, and thanks for dropping into the Switch Paveter Quit podcast. Candid combo for the girl needing a lifestyle plot twist when she's deciding if it's time to switch, pivot, or quit. I'm Ayanna Angel, a former sports entertainment publicist in New York City, turned traditionally published author with Simon & Schuster, who quit my old life to write a book, live in London for a bit, and explore my dreams to find my happiness and fulfillment. I'm here to help encourage and guide you through your plot twist years as your chief and carrager and host of the Switch Paveter Quit podcast.
Be sure to rate, review, and subscribe on iTunes if you have enjoyed listening to this podcast so far and check out SwitchPaveterQuit.com for even more personal and professional development resources. But for now, just sit back, open your mind, and enjoy the show. On today's show, we're chatting with Heather McCollum. She is the founder and chief facilitator at BetterHR, a firm that works to translate and simplify human resources protocol for emerging businesses and employees.
BetterHR believes that HR management, when done well, is an essential component of a growing business. Likewise, employees who are aware of how HR management works in an organization can enjoy a greater sense of control in their work lives. With a strong background as a principal corporate HR professional, Heather is well-versed in delivering straightforward advice and practical tools for employees and employers. She began her HR career in a leadership development program with Sigma.
From there, her journey has taken her to large and mid-sized companies such as Pepsi Botlin Group, The Walt Disney Company, and more. Her experience with those companies centered around HR business partnerships, working to make the company more profitable through efficient and effective people management practices. Heather is a consummate employment coach and partner to business leaders who see their employees as an investment and recognize how talent impacts business strategy and profitability. Born and raised in Grand Rapids, Michigan, Heather holds an undergraduate degree from Spelman College and received her master's degree in industrial and labor relations from Cornell University.
Get ready to get your notebook out whether you are in need of HR services for your own small business or entrepreneurial endeavors or you are an employee trying to navigate the world of corporate climbing up the ladder and needing to use HR as your strength, let's say, partner maybe even because from our discussion with Heather, you're going to find out how you can better utilize HR within your career. Welcome to the Shell, Heather. Thank you very much. I'm excited to chat with you.
We're going to be talking all about HR, which is your specialty, right? Yeah, that's it. To get us started, can you share a little bit about your transition into better HR and sort of like what it looks like, what better HR does and what made you decide to do your own things better HR? Okay, well, I want to say that the name of this podcast is really applicable to me.
It was definitely a situation where I needed to pivot. I had worked in corporate HR for a long time and made my career there and was very comfortable with what I know. I liked the role, I liked the companies that I worked for, but I felt like I needed to be doing more of the parts that I enjoyed, which was the coaching for mid-level management and then also coaching for the masses. So non-executives.
And so that's really what made me leave corporate America and pursue my own business with better HR. And so better HR is twofold. It's in development. I'm just launched in March of 2018.
So it's a baby. And originally I was thinking it would be focused on helping small employers to build their HR strategy or to build some infrastructure around how they manage people. You know, you hear a lot about small business owners complaining or you see the product of their hiring decisions when you go to the store or that restaurant and people that work there aren't necessarily the most attentive, right? And I'm sure who are entrepreneurs who just put out a Facebook post saying they need to hire an admin assistant, for example, right?
And so that's wonderful, but that's usually not what's necessary. They need a little bit more help thinking through organization design, how to design a job, how to write a job description and how to select the best people. And in small businesses, it matters so much more because there's no one to cover. You know, there's not a buffer.
People really have to be talented. And so I started better HR with that in mind and I would start building out toolkits and training for managers or people who are entrepreneurs to build their HR infrastructure. What I found though in talking about the business was that I was getting a lot more calls and questions from people who were working, whether they be managers within a company or if they are just individual contributors, you know, for whatever employer, whether they're nonprofit or working for profit. And so I decided that I would switch my strategy a little bit to include what I call coaching for the masses.
So people who aren't necessarily trying to be executives and need executive coaching, but instead just want to have a trusted HR voice to help them guide or to help guide them through their employment decisions. So that's the work of better HRs in its infancy stages. I'm working a lot on content, but that's what I'm hoping to do. I love it.
I love it because there's a lot of us, especially in the switch pivot or quit transition space, that feel like HR is not our friend. That's right. I remember I can remember going to HR when I was just, I was desperate for answers for something to help me switch my situation. And I felt like HR was there to sort of pacify me.
That's how I really felt in the situation. I did not feel like I was working away with any answers, any more tools or clarity. And I remember my HR rep saying, maybe you should try, I can't even remember what she said with some bogusness, some nonsense that I was like, that doesn't even apply to me. So anyway, what I'm getting to with you is, you know, I'm sure you experience situations where companies have certain protocol and certain things that they want, you know, you to do with employees, when employees come to you.
What's their advice for people that are in those switch pivot or quit situations right now? When they're looking to HR to be their voice or to be a support system, would they're advice to people in terms of how they should navigate that situation? Yeah. And I hate to give the business a little answer, but it does depend on things.
I want to call out a couple of things. And one is let's break down what HR is. Okay, good. You're in HR and you already know there are generalists and there are specialists, the larger the company, the more names you have to deal with recruiters, compensation, training and development, leadership development, employee relations, right?
So that might sound familiar to people who work in big companies. You know, HR business partner or your HR generalist, that's the person that you would go to for an employee issue, right? So I wanted to explain that because I've had, you know, heard people talking to the recruiter and it's like, no, that's not really the HR person that you would want to talk to about that. You're right at eyes, but their function is a lot different than the business partner.
Right. You want to clarify that. Yes, my role was the business partner role. And I think about that in with three hats.
That's how I usually explain. One hat is, yes, you are a partner to the business leader. So you help that director or manager whomever that manages a team make decisions about people and that might be around labor budget, that might be around layoffs, how much we're going to reward somebody with a bonus, how we think about raises, who gets promoted, we do all of those things, right? The other part of a business partner role though is as a change agent.
And that sometimes includes what the manager wants, but it might not, you know, and you've seen it where managers too can be impacted. They get laid out too. They get out too, right? So the business partner should be able to switch that hat on too and think about what the business goals are at the time by the board of directors, right?
So at the higher level than just that on the ground dynamic. And then the third hat I'd say is what I call an employee advocate. And that's what most employees know. And I think that requires a lot of navigation.
So to give to your original question, what does how to navigate, you got to really have a good HR business partner. And I don't know a better way to say it because all HR departments aren't created equal and some HR people really don't think of that employee advocate role the way that I do. So if I were to give advice, one, I'd like to know what the situation is, I'd like to know what's happened. And if I go off and found that by the time someone came to me, they'd really messed a lot of stuff up already.
Oh, interesting. Okay. My advice then would be very different than someone who is proactive who sees a problem, can take the look at themselves and be a little self-reflective and say, hey, Heather, I I cannot talk to you about something. You know, it's no tears, they're not upset.
You know, they're really sad and thought about it. The first time that coworkers said something that sounded crazy. Yeah, it was weird, but I just went out about my day, but this was a second time. So I'm going to talk to you about it.
Right. That's when I can help you when you've already sent your message to that boss, you know, accusing them of being racist. No, because this is what you get, right? I just told them that.
Or when you have attendance problems, or when you perform with those below and you didn't want to sign the feedback form or the performance improvement plan, you kind of push us into a corner. And so now we don't have as many options available. The sooner that you engage as a partner and as an owner and a responsible party in your own employment, the better able HR is, especially if you have a good HR team or a good HR business partner, the better able we are to help you navigate. Okay.
It does depend. Okay. Okay. I love that answer.
That was that really worked us through what the scope of the situation can look like. So now I'm gonna, this is, this question is gonna go, what may feel a little less. Quick, I like it. I like to dig deep into people's real issues that they're dealing with.
So all I can do is reflect on things that I'm familiar with and things that I know have happened to me. So one thing that I think about is you have a manager that you don't exactly click with, right? And a lot of those situations, and I've heard people on the show tell me this too, you know, a lot of that arises from situations where that manager did not hire you. So another manager did, and you were acquired by this manager.
So maybe your work styles don't quite mesh as well. Things of that nature, things start to come up. And in your mind, you start feeling like, well, I like this company, but if I could just get rid of this manager, you might be great. Right.
How realistic is it for people, when they think that if they go to HR about management, that problem will be solved with management. Okay. Let me, let me get a little bit more nitty gritty. Okay.
So I think that you want to be done with this manager, rid of this manager. If you go to HR, you can get from underneath this manager. How realistic is it that that type of situation happens? And I guess the real question behind is, can you get a manager fired?
Okay. So I'm glad you asked exactly that way. Cause I'm beating around the bush. That's really what I wanted to ask.
And as a HR business partner, lay it out because we can't keep talking about things theoretically, right? So, you know, I'm glad you lay it out that way because I know, I know, because I've been here, I'm an employee too, right? Right. You're myself.
I think that there's a couple of things that I would want to frame up. One, you're always in control of what you do and how much you're willing to take. Right. So I think there's a sense of once you're in an employment relationship, you're the child, the company's the parent.
Right. And the manager's the big sibling and HR is supposed to come and be mom and thank the, you know, give them punishment or timeout. And that's not the reality. The reality is the job is part of the job.
You know, how you manage yourself in that space is the job. You know, you're doing the marketing or the research or whatever it is that you do is just what you're doing, you know, but you got to think bigger. So especially for really smart, high potential employees, I just can't there because are we going to get tied into this manager? Because I thought you wanted to be a VP.
Right. Right. So why? So this is part of the strategy.
And this is always going to happen. Right. You might be on a succession plan. And I don't want to move you off the succession plan that you have to be in this role for.
But you're so impatient about this manager who, guess what? He's not on a succession plan. Right. So you got to think about it bigger than just the situation that you're in.
And then the second thing I would say is don't go into it with an outcome already established. I do think that folks attract or attach being fired or disciplined to HR. That's not how it works. Unless it's something egregious, right?
This person slacked me in the parking lot and videotaped to prove it, right? Or this person called me, you know, everything but a child of God and everybody heard it, right? It's got to be something like that to be fired immediately from misconduct. If it's a matter of your communication style, I mean, think about that.
Right. What if you're a manager one day and somebody doesn't like your communication style and they think that you should be fired. Right. If you want to have a conversation or dialogue beforehand, that's what adults do, right?
So you got to think about it in terms of I'm an adult. I don't have to be here. This is, you know, this is part of a longer journey for me. If it is, right?
Part of the longer journey. So hey, I want some help on how to navigate that situation. If you approach HR like that, it's a world of difference. Now there have been situations though, and I think it's appropriate to say in this current climate, there'll probably be more where I have had people come to me to tell me about sexual harassment.
Okay. I want to make the point because it's very important. There's not, you don't have to second guess yourself. You know, don't let it happen long.
You know, I've had women come to me and they suffered with situations that had gone on for so long as they tried to figure it out. And they, you know, talked it over with their sister and they just didn't know what to do. And I was so upset because I thought, it'd meet that wouldn't even been a problem. You would have had in 72 hours, the whole situation could have been resolved, you know, right?
There are times where you don't want to overthink it. When it's something like that, it is important that you report it right away. But for most other things, where it's communication, you've got a perception, you just don't like each other, you know, you got to let HR help you in navigating it and then be willing at times to stick around and be patient while that manager learns. You know, they might not be a conversation.
It might be a skill. Maybe they, you know, don't have the skill that you're looking for them to to demonstrate. So you have to be able to work through a performance improvement plan with them. So, you know, my advice in most of those situations is let's look in first, what is it that you want?
And let's think about that big picture. And then how do we, what do we want to do? Maybe we need to escalate or elevate your, your potential and think about getting this experience in a layer of move under a different boss, right? There's a lot of things that we can do, but come to the table with an open mind and having thought through the bigger picture.
I love that. I'm getting the feeling though that some HR teams and situations are a lot more involved with the employees than others, you know, because I definitely got the feeling that in past situations, HR just served as sort of like the, hey, we're here holding up our flag. Yes. I really feel like they were a partner.
So I like that you use that word partner. Yes, I definitely like that. So a lot of our listeners have side hustles. They are trying to figure out if they're going to work their side hustle, how they're going to work their side hustle, and things of that nature.
There's two questions that I have. But the first one I'll start with is if you have a side hustle, how likely is it that you need to tell your employer about your side hustle before you keep going with it to avoid some type of potential drama or trouble? Yeah, I'm glad you said that because I think it touches on something bigger for me, which is there's a way to be open and friendly. I know a lot of us have met coaching, if you know the accessible at work, you guys, I won't go over that.
But there is such a thing as oversharing. When you are telling all about, you know, you don't have to get into so much detail. If it's not a direct conflict of interest, if you know you're not selling insurance on the side when you, you know, are working for a healthcare company or something, read your confidentiality agreement and your non-compete agreements, it's in your handbook, you can go to your internet site and download it. Probably, but don't do that, but go back to that.
But if it's not something that where you're competing for the same type of customers or you're using information from your company to inform your business, if it's something where, you know, like for me, with HR, me giving advice to small businesses didn't conflict with the Fortune 100 companies that I work for, right? They're not competing for the same customers. But if it's not a conflict, then I don't think that you need to bring it up or what, right? Remember, work is, there's a point in work.
It's not your family. And it's not going to be your last employer most likely, right? So it's like, for a purpose. So when you think about what you're sharing, what purpose does it serve?
Maybe that's the way to give some guidance about that. Now, if it is something where, you know, you might want to change hours, for example, or, you know, there's some changes in your schedule that you need or maybe need to go to school to pursue a certain skill set for your side hustle, then I think that's appropriate to talk to your manager about, and I would do it in the context of your goal setting for the year. So, you know, and that way you structure it so that it's not just fodder for a discussion. You know, this is a, this is professional.
So use the tools and those forums professionally. That's what that time is for. But you know, I wouldn't even bring it up unless it's something where you can see yourself potentially leaving the job. I think any employer would appreciate kind of a heads up that you really want to be doing something different.
We'll be considering you in terms of succession planning and you, you know, are saying, oh, I want to go be a teacher now. That's important. And so I think that's fair. But remember that there's a purpose in what you reveal.
Right. Yes, I love that. There's a purpose in what you reveal. You actually answered both questions within that.
So that's perfect. I love that. In an economic situation where, you know, things are not looking as promising. And I know, you know, I've been having conversations with people lately and I feel like this, I should bring this up.
Everyone is predicting some type of economic downturn. So I want to talk to you from an HR from a hiring perspective, sort of, what are your thoughts on some of the things that people can do to protect their careers, protect their jobs when entering the situation where things get tricky in the economy and competition seems to maybe be heightened because there's this sort of scarcity mentality that's created. What are your, what are your thoughts on how people should approach that and maybe what they can do to protect their skill sets, their jobs, their positions, all those things? Okay, I'm glad you asked that because I do think we'll probably be seeing some of that soon.
But I would say the first thing is calm down, calm all the way down, even if you see the writing on the wall or you've been notified of job elimination or, you know, I get it, but you are no good to yourself. Thinking about a job search or talking to people about what your needs are from a very fearful place. It just does not work out. So your energy has got to calm down and you have got to expect good things.
I know that sounds really new thought age-ish, but it makes a huge difference. I think, again, on the line of thinking about your career or thinking about your job as more than just the job, the job isn't the destination, right? The destination is usually a lot further out than that job. It's not a VP.
That's not a destination either. A level is in a destination. So you need to be very descriptive. And then you can see that mobility or transitioning from one employer to another or from one manager to another isn't a bad thing, but that's the way it's supposed to go.
So if you have that in mind already, then you should be networking already. You know, I used to apply for a new job or two every year. Whenever I was writing my performance appraisal, I started building myself. You know how you do that self appraisal part?
Right. I hate it. Oh, I thought that is my opportunity to just, you know, this is it. I'm flexing.
I'm writing out everything that I've done. Look at this. I felt myself in a brain. Seriously, I say my resume and I love it.
Right? And then you see who likes. And every year you need to do that. And that's not a I'm on the ground.
I'm on the hustle type thing. That's just why not, you know, you're you're thinking about what's next, see what opportunities go on the interview, see what happens. See what you know. So if you have that mindset, then you're not going to be as fearful.
You might actually look at it as an opportunity to keep moving. So I would say networking is essential. Get real definitive about your destination. And not in terms of not this job, not just the contrast or what you don't want, and not just the level or just the field, you know, you hear people, I want to get into public relations.
Well, that's nice. But public relations is a big field. Right. What specifically do you want to do?
Do you know anybody in there? Yeah. People ask me, oh, I'm looking for a new job. I go to their LinkedIn page, crickets.
It's nothing. It's not always my time. You've got it really thought through and you haven't really been about and had the presence of mind to think about what you want to do next. And yet you're going to be nervous.
There's nothing I can say to make you not be nervous. You should be nervous. People who are really about it and who are thinking about their their lives and have some vision about their careers. Or even if it's just, you know, what I want to do for the next five years while I'm building up my my side hustle.
Right. Even that is important. So they'll network and always be able to have that income and not be afraid. But at the same time, know that what they're doing is to fund their dream.
That's the best advice I can give. It's it's very general, but I think it has to do with your state of mind more than anything. I like that. Yeah, it does.
It does. Being prepared. And you say, what do they say? Stay ready.
You don't have to get ready. It's not like it becomes overwhelming. I think to people because they start when there's a problem. Right.
Start when the coworkers are in the food or the manager changes or there's hours change or now they require a different skill or somebody got promoted. There's always a trigger. Right. That's what happens in a business.
That's that always happens. And you know, you have a babysitter for your kids that here, she graduated from high school and now they moved away. Yeah, you got to change things up. So be prepared and be thinking about things changing and how you need to respond to that with your destination in mind.
My version of new in your version of new are probably a bit different. But let's be clear. We're talking about shoes. Rebecca Allen has a line of shoes for savvy women that come in five skin tone shades offering a perfect nude for you.
I've been rocking the new Sleece 20 so flat a.k.a. the skim and I love them. I'm a flat kind of girl and these are perfect for dressing up for a meeting or zipping around town. These all leather shoes are not only comfortable, but they're combating colorism and breaking boundaries exemplifying what it means to be color brave in fashion.
Head over to Rebecca dash Allen dot com. Select your version of new and get 15% off. Check out when you enter the code SPQ 15. Follow up Rebecca Allen and why on Instagram.
What are some tips that you would give to potential job seekers like insider tips that maybe people just wouldn't even think about it could even be the simple thing that you're just like people keep missing this every time. Oh my god. I'm so glad you brought that up. I actually wrote a book about that.
Again, when I when I started to think about my business on the employee side, you know, this concept my friends told me about it. Like you know, you're my girl in HR. And so I wrote it from the perspective of if I were talking to my sister or my brother about what they need to do and how they would navigate the workforce, that's the voice I wrote it in. So it was from the employer.
You need to wear a suit and you should cut your hair and you should straighten it. It's not from that perspective at all. It's from the perspective of I want you to keep your edges. Right?
You don't need to be stressed out or you know, I want you to be in a place that's welcoming to diversity or I want you to be in a place that you feel good about going every day. So it's written from that perspective. And I wrote a book that I think is going to be a series. So it's a long name.
It's called Where's Like a Pro? And your guide to finding, accepting and starting a new job. And it walks you through how to think about your job search, a destination in mind, and how to network, how to do your LinkedIn, you know, just all the steps that you need to take. And then how you interview, you know, what are the best interviews to be prepared for?
Really, I think in that lesson alone, the biggest takeaway is be focused. Don't apply for everything. It compuses you. You know, you'll get calls for things and then you'll convince yourself that that's what you want to do.
And I'm not a recruiter. You know, recruiter is wonderful. And this is nothing against recruiting. I have great respect because I can't do that job.
It's a hard job. But they're trying to hire the, they're filling the wreck. They want to hire someone. It makes no sense when I hear people say, well, they didn't post it.
Why would a company have openings that they really do want to fill, but not telling them about it. That doesn't make you sense. So recruiting, I'm trying to get what they call a repload, a requisition load. They're trying to get that small.
So they don't want 30 open positions on their desk. So they're trying to hire, right? So they're looking for the top five people to show to this manager, and that manager can make that decision from a business partner perspective. I live with the results.
So when I'm involved in that process, I'm looking at something different. I'm looking at, you know, it's this person a right fit. And so insider tip would be be genuinely interested in that job. Know why you want it, because I can tell when somebody has just memorized what they thought were good questions to ask me, what I do, they don't, you know, they start asking me questions about benefits.
Why? Why are we talking about this? Right. Right.
It's not an awesome, you know, a better question to ask me would be, you know, what are some of the, and it needs to be legit. So I, you know, I'm not even going to tell the questions because I would hate for somebody to use that when they don't really feel it. But you, when you're interested in someone or something, it's natural. And you have real questions and you can discuss your experience from a position of, I really want this job.
And I know I'm the greatest person for it, because I've done X, Y, and Z. I have an interest in this. I have a friend who works over here. They told me about this.
What's this company doing? I read this in the Wall Street Journal. I read this magazine. Right.
That's a very different type of feeling in an interview than someone who's just there to try to get a job. You know, it don't apply for everything. I've had situations where this was back in 2008. I was working for a big, big company in New York.
We had this guy who was notorious for applying for just about every position. He wanted a job. He applied for security guard. He applied for Chief General Counsel everywhere.
And the bad thing about it is he was probably right fit for maybe two or three different jobs. It was a huge company. Right. But because it was so foolish, no one, we couldn't even, I never even looked at it as me.
It was a joke. Internally, when you apply for a job, no one takes you seriously when you send blind emails to Heather McCulloch, who's an HR business partner, I'll link in and you send me something saying, I'm looking for a new job. Let's break that down. You think that I'm going to stop doing what I'm doing and look for a job for you?
You don't need to have a title. You haven't looked at our career site. I'm not a recruiter. You do nothing except for CHR and then toss out help me.
And that shows a lack of lack of responsibility and honestly a lack of maturity. That's very focused. I would apply for, maybe 10 jobs, but a very focused on a certain industry or within a certain segment. A certain level look for things that you want to do.
Maybe things that you haven't done before, but you know you can do them that are very close to your skill set and make you get candidate. It's going to help you throughout that process. So you made me think of it with everything that you were saying, you made me think of communicating your value to a prospective employer. What are some ways that people can, what are some ways that people can go about communicating their value to a prospective employer?
And maybe it's even, it starts with something that they do on their own from your opinion. I don't know. But how do you think that people should go about doing that? Because if everything is so competitive, right?
And you want to stand out and you want to shine and obviously you want to be an asset to a company. So what are your thoughts on how people can go about communicating that value? Yeah. Well, in interviews that I have, I can usually tell by the resume.
You always want to go, when you go into an interview, kind of tension to whether or not that interviewer has actually read your resume. Okay, how would you know? How would you know? Because they're reading in front of you or they're asking you questions or you know, they're going through that you're, oh, well, I see what you're working on.
Tell me about that. You know, it's very, it sounds like they're winging it. Okay. Okay.
And you'll know the difference. Sometimes it's quick. I got, you know, I'm pretty good at reading them quickly and questioning things that I think are interesting or I might want to understand the walk of why you, you know, walk me through the decisions that you made. So I think if you go about demonstrating or communicating the why as to why you did certain things and being honest, talking about lessons that you learned are always good, thinking, talking about accomplishments, what something was and then you got there and you were able to do this and oh, well, you know, I worked on a team that wasn't just me.
Oh, that's always nice. But here was my contribution in that team. And then here's what we got. And in that experience, I learned XYZ.
And so the next time we did it, I was able to do this and then we, you know, and show your excitement. It's again, it's that natural conversation that's a genuine dialogue versus name-dropping. I hate that. I did this and this person knows me and I worked it with them.
And that's wonderful. But we're talking about you right now. Right. So I think those are a few things to keep in mind.
But always remember, if this is a two way interview, you're also interviewing that company. If you're with a hiring manager who hasn't read your resume, you know, a year or two later when you've had that job and they're not interested in helping you get promoted, you kind of have some insight to them. That's a really good point. It's so you who they are.
So you should say an attention. Yeah. And I think a lot of that is because we are so focused on getting the job and their scarcity mentality, especially with within like these larger companies that it makes you feel like you should overlook anything that they do. And you have to be on your best behavior.
You have to perform. You have to show your value, all those things, instead of also leaving some room for them to prove to you that this is a company you would want to work at. That's right. Yeah.
It's a just along the river. This is not the job is in that destination, you know, the job is a part of the puzzle. And so you might say, okay, this manager is not that right. And that's fine.
But I'm here to get this name on my resume. And while I'm here, I'm going to while I'm in this role, I need to accomplish three things at my resume. A person like that, they don't ever have employee relations issues because they're not there for out of foolishness. Right.
Right. They need to get what they came for. They're checking off their boxes and they're moving on. Yeah.
One of the things that I think would be very helpful for us. And I don't know if there is a specific answer that you can give for this, but I'm going to try you. When you're in an interview, and you're looking at resumes, and you're talking to someone, what are the types of things that come up as red flags? Yeah.
And the reason that I ask this is because I know that there are times when you go into an interview and you think you nailed it, you think you killed it, you're like, I got this, only to be disappointed to find out that you didn't get it. Now, obviously, there could be a number of reasons why. But for you, from an HR perspective, when you're sitting in an interview with someone, what are some things that maybe have come up for you before that have seemed like red flags and you're like, no, I can continue this conversation, but I know that this person is not going any further than this point in the process. Yeah, you know, because I'm a business partner, and I live with the results of that hire, I often look for things like, is this person going to be happy here?
And that's not, I don't want to say that broadly, because you can be discriminatory when you say that. I don't think they'll be comfortable. I don't need to take that in regards to this person has so much promise and intuitiveness, and they have, they have a lot of interest in this field. And I know, as an employer, we are not going to be able to to nurse that.
So it might be something like that. But if it's, and usually in those cases, I might keep that person in my own contact and then let my friends at other companies that I think they're a bit more know. So we like to hear HR people. We're helping network because we know our friends need to feel right.
Right. But when I, like to me, are things like, are you likable? You know, sometimes the people who work here like working with you, and you have some people who come in that are so buttoned up and they have their interview, you know, they know what they're going to say and they're going to drop this name here and they're going to make sure that you see what everything that you ask them, they're like the best at it. And it's like, okay, this is great, but you're uber conservative.
And while I appreciate that, you're here, we've already made a decision to see you. So now you can bring that down a notch and we can now you're in person. So use this time so that you're asking, you know, we're being genuine now. We're finding out if we like each other.
Right. I think that's one thing that to me as a red flag, when somebody just can't turn it off or dial it down a notch, that's a big red flag for me. Another one is when they are skittish about why they left employers. Oh, okay.
I can't get a straight answer. I don't like that. And that's just because you're again, I'm living with the results. Are we ever going to be able to get a straight answer?
You're going to make mistakes. But if we talk about it or asked about it, it's always going to be some defensive deflection story. Like I think about that. I do appreciate it when someone's like, you know, I at that time in my life, I was going through XYZ and I wasn't making it in on time.
And I get it. You know, they needed to make the decision they made, they let me go. I was able to, you know, whatever it was. But now I got that situation under control.
I'm 100% committed. Show me the flip side because now you're a real person. We can engage, you acknowledge mistakes. That's fine.
Another red flag is when someone can't answer the question about their weakness and the development needs and they say something like, well, I just worked too hard or whatever. You know, the article tells you to say, and tell and that just sounds real rehearsed. And for my lower level jobs or my entry level jobs, that will be okay because they'll learn. But when someone's a hard one, when you're a director, if I'm interviewing someone who's a people leader, that doesn't work.
And the third thing is when you are a people leader and you have an interview with a business partner, so I'm not a recruiter again. But when I'm on your slate of interviews and you come into me and you don't take advantage of my knowledge of the business partner, that's you're not asking questions about the team. You're not asking questions about the performance of the team or, you know, the workforce planning for the team. Then I know that you have never worked with the strategic HR business partner before.
So that's a red flag to me because I would have to teach you that and you would be coming to be with a benefit question, which is not, you know, what I do. So, you know, those are just a few things that come up for me. Wow. I think you just, you just really enlighten me and touched on something that makes a lot of sense.
Your role as the business partner, working with, let's say, senior management, people that will be people leaders and that will have teams, if you're coming in, the conversation with you needs to be more about, not more about, but it needs to include elements of what are they going to be walking into? Why would they take advantage of that? Right. And if you don't, then I see with someone who maybe isn't as resourceful or you don't do a lot of, this is about you getting a job and you getting a title, then about you leading a team.
And guess what? That's a broken relationship for me because if you, your head's not even there and I'm your business partner, I take it very seriously that good people leaders lead, I call them my people, you know, I'm a real HR, like I see the folks that I partner with as an asset, you know, this is how we all get paid. You come in and you're half stepping and it's all about you and you don't have any questions about the people that you're in here. You know, I know I can tell kind of what we're going to do, what we're going to get with you.
Let's switch gears a little bit to the business owner side because I know that being a business owner is a complicated thing and there's a lot more business owners now. There's a lot of small businesses and people are in the process of hiring people and sometimes that can be intimidating and there's a lot that goes along with that. So first things first, does one really need a job description to fill a role? Yes.
Okay. Why do you say yes? We want to know why? I say yes because often what I find with hiring managers, whether they're in a big company or not, is they have an idea of what they need, but they haven't quite figured out what they can sell to a person who wants to work for them.
Right? It's two ways. So I might have an employer who says something like, I need somebody who's an accountant who can do this and who can make sure that my taxes are filed correctly and I had all these problems with the center that I had and I need somebody inside to just provide advantage of the whole thing from an accounting perspective. Right?
So they might say that. And that's what I'm going to put out into the world. Okay. Well, let's talk about that.
Where should they have worked before? How long should they have been doing it? What kinds of audits would they have been through to be effective on your team? What's your budget?
Do you still want to work with this vendor? Right? And what I end up doing is really defining that they don't need an accountant. They need an accountant project manager and accountant, accounting coordinator.
Right? And so by writing it down, you really crystallize for yourself what it is that you do need and then you can get into, okay, are you as a manager really going to stay out of it? Right? That's the biggest thing.
So entrepreneurs, they don't stay out of it. And so what will you not trust somebody else to do? And that's okay. You don't have to trust them to do it.
But let's be realistic about what we're searching for because you might oversell. You might be paying somebody more to do a lot less than what you plan. And then let's get into now what would be attractive about working for you? And so a job description, if you look at them and I would encourage anyone listening to just, you know, when you get to your desk or whatever, just look at a couple job descriptions.
So go on indeed and put in a title and just see what comes up and then compare them. And you'll see that the better job descriptions talk about here's what we would want from you. Here's what you can expect versus just a list of we're looking for one sidedness, right? So a job description is necessary.
It also provides, and this is the most important part, I think it provides a baseline for expectations. So when I see entrepreneurs all the time, actually, I'll tell a story. I had a friend of mine who was a marketing person and she was on a project and needed a graphic designer, or I'm sorry, she had a graphic designer and she needed a coder. And she hired this guy, a millennial young guy, and he, you know, was not doing what he needed to do and was missing deadlines.
And she invested in this software to help them schedule things and be still with them getting it. So we were talking and I asked her, well, you know, when you guys, when you, what was it in his job description, you know, when he applied for the job, what he, the silence, okay, okay, that's fine. But in your interview process, did you silence? Okay, so you had no interview process, you had no job descriptions.
He thinks he's doing you a favor. Right? He doesn't see this as a job. There's nothing about this.
If you don't have a job description, how are you going to tell somebody they're not doing meet next vacation? That makes so much sense. Are they in your imagination? Yeah.
It's not even about the legality part, even though that's probably what it's at some point, not with just one person, but at some point, that would be an issue. But you want to have some documentation about your expectations so that you can, I call it a meeting of the mind, you can have a meeting of the mind about what you need at a minimum. Right? And then you can build guess what, I would say next is important is your onboarding plan.
You know, what are the steps to help make sure this person can be successful? Right? The front book that I wrote gives employees a lot of information on how to do this themselves in the event that a manager doesn't. Okay.
But on the employer side, I will have another toolkit for them where it walks them through. Here's a job description, and here's what you need to ask yourself to build this out. Here's what an interview looks like. People think they're interviewing, and then the manager, the employer is talking more than the person being interviewed.
Right? This is what you're going to have to do. And I told them they need to do this. Okay, well, what did they tell you?
Did they say that? Give me, tell me an example they gave you of when they did it. And I found that these entrepreneurs don't really know how to do interviews, which is why, because that's why I'm here. Right?
And then when onboarding, they don't know how to set up a 90-day onboarding plan. You don't have to micromanage someone if you did a job description, that person applied for your job, you did some interviews, you didn't go into the interview expecting to say yes, that's another big one. Interview is a set. It means yes or no.
So you can interview someone and make a decision not to hire them. You know, that's what it's for. So don't go into an interview so hungry and wanting a warm body that you just, you know, this is just a formality. So you're really seeking and asking them questions and hearing their answers.
You're asking all these questions. What's a good interview look like? Right. You know what, you're making me think too, in terms of working with smaller companies, how should small business owners look at or approach the development side of things in order to retain good employees?
What are some of the things that business owners should be thinking about or looking to do or implement or aware of so that they can retain and develop that good talent? Yeah, because it's expensive. Yeah, you know, to rehire and train and do all that over. Nobody want to do that.
Right. A friend of mine brought this up because she was complaining about the millennials. I'm a big fan of millennials. I'm like a millennial envy.
I am a zenio. I'm on the cusp, but my mindset, I think, is with the millennials. I love it. They hustle, they're not scared, they got four dogs.
I love it. It's a wonderful mindset to have, and I'm really happy for all the innovations that are coming from the millennial generation. So I will never hate on millennials. So I told her, I said, well, I think the biggest thing to retention is you're not giving them a lot of authority.
It's not about them not being loyal. It's about you as an entrepreneur and not seeking growth. Oh, you know, like you, why would they want to sit with you doing the same thing for 17? Yeah, exactly.
Right. I wouldn't say either. Right. Right.
Those people are not going to want to sit around. And so I think the main thing is as an entrepreneur, what's your plan and get ready to delegate? Like nobody's trying to sit with you while you stir around in place and take everything on. So that's one key to that's a very important key to retention is give them increasing responsibilities because they want a piece of your business.
Mm hmm. That's a good thing to have. But you have to be in a position where you're ready to let go and move on. That's the second thing is I hate to say it, but it goes back to that job description.
One of the things that I put in my templates are what are some things that this person can expect to do after a year, right? And so then you have two things. You're teaching them how to do the job that you need right now. But it forces you as a business leader to strategically plan for your workforce going forward.
So, you know, in 18 months, I'm working on these two big deals. If I get this contract, I'm going to need to add to my team, I want this person and I'll be an operations manager, right? Because they know the accounting. So now I need to make sure that they have a people management course.
And I need to sign up with a better HR so they can get trained on doing interviews, right? But that's where that starts. And people management is so much easier if you spend the quality time on that front end. And the same thing goes for employment relationships when you're an employee.
If you spend the time on the front end thinking about who you are and what you're looking for and going about it in a very methodical way, the rest of it will be a whole lot easier. Wow. Heather, this has been one hell of a conversation. I love this conversation.
I love it as well. Like this was so good. You just you brought out so many things for us to think about and consider in our professional journey. So I appreciate you.
Thank you so much for joining us. Thank you. Okay, before we go, make sure you let everyone know where they can find you, find out more about you, keep up with you, or potentially even hire you for their small business. Yeah.
Well, I have a company. It's called Better HR and my website is MyBetterHR.com. I actually just wrote a book. You can find it if you're a Kindle user, you can find it through the Kindle app.
And it's your I'm sorry, it's called Work Like a Pro, your guide to finding, accepting and starting a new job. And then I have a Facebook group that I'm growing and will be making private. And that's MyGirl and HR on Facebook. So you can look for me there.
So cute. I love that. Thank you again, Heather, for this conversation. You are a wealth of knowledge and information.
Thank you. All right, you guys, as always, keep killing it.