Elan Lee — Building Exploding Kittens, Marketing as Design, Retail Pitches, and Playing to Sell (#91)

About ElanElan Lee (@elanlee) is the co-creator and chief executive officer of Exploding Kittens, a leading gaming and entertainment company. Under his leadership, Exploding Kittens has expanded its portfolio to nearly 30 different games with more than 60 million games sold in more than 50 countries since its founding in 2015.Before founding Exploding Kittens, Lee was the chief design officer at Xbox Entertainment Studios, where he led the Interactive Entertainment Portfolio. Prior to that, he was the founder and chief creative officer of Fourth Wall Studios and co-founder of 42 Entertainment. He began his career at Microsoft Games Studios as a lead designer on the original Xbox.Lee has won a Primetime Emmy for the series Dirty Work; Game Innovator of the Year for Exploding Kittens; a Peabody Award for the world’s first alternate reality game, The Beast; and an IndieCade Trailblazer Award for a distinguished career in interactive entertainment, among others.In this episode, Elan and I discuss into how his company built their rigorous playtesting culture, why marketing is inseparable from product design, and how pitching to Target and Walmart is just another kind of game. Whether you’re trying to break into retail, sharpen your viral marketing instincts, or simply design games people can’t stop playing, this conversation will give you both insight and inspirationAh-ha! Justin’s Takeaways* Execution is the Superpower: From manufacturing to social media strategy, Elan’s team treats execution as part of game design. Elan explains why 80% of his company are marketers, producers, and logistics experts, all aligned around making games irresistible to discover and play.* Marketing is Product Design: At Exploding Kittens, marketers have veto power. A game might be hilarious to play in the room, but if it can’t be captured in a five-second social video, the game never makes it out of the room. Elan shares how his team tests hundreds of games at design retreats, then filters them through a marketing lens to ensure the product is not only fun but also instantly communicable and shareable.* Play to Sell: When pitching to Target or Walmart, Elan doesn’t “sell” games—he plays them. He gets buyers into the experience, proving the fun directly. This approach yields extraordinary success rates, with most of Exploding Kittens’ pitched games picked up for retail. Elan reframes pitching as playing with new friends, making joy the ultimate sales tool.Show Notes"She said, ‘I just want you to take a moment and take a breath and realize you built this thing.’" 00:04:46It’s easy as creators to focus on what’s broken or what needs fixing (I know I fall into this mindset myself) but sometimes the most powerful thing you can do is step back, practice gratitude, and recognize how far you’ve come. Elan’s wife reminded him of this during a board meeting, and it’s a lesson all of us can use to cultivate more joy in our creative journey."It doesn’t matter if it’s the best game in the world. If they don’t know how to sell it, it is not worth wasting our time on." 00:15:15Sometimes as game designers, we feel like the job ends once the mechanics click. Marketing can seem like an afterthought, but the truth is that it’s part of product design. Elan bakes this into his process by giving his marketing team veto power at design retreats. It’s a powerful reminder: if you want your game to succeed, you must think not only about how it plays but also about how it will be discovered. For Elan, that means asking whether a game can be sold in five seconds on social media. He shares stories of projects he loved that never made it to market because his team couldn’t find a way to sell them. This strategy is tied directly to reaching the casual gameplay audience, which demands this very specific approach."All I do is I talk to my friends about how much fun they are about to have, and then I prove it." 00:32:25Elan’s approach to pitching games is radically simple: instead of talking, play the game and let the experience do the work. Whether you’re pitching to Target or teaching your prototype at a convention, the best way to win people over is to let them feel the joy for themselves. Hearing this made me rethink my own approach, as I’ve often been guilty of trying to “sell” too much instead of simply playing.“[Poetry for Neanderthals] is, in its purest form, a tool set to let you talk to other people in the room." 01:04:01Elan describes his games as tool sets that let players entertain each other, which is why games like Poetry for Neanderthals or Codenames can stay fun even after dozens of plays. My philosophy takes a different angle: I aim to design games that last a lifetime, so my team thinks deeply about what the 100th play will feel like, something Elan admits he never has to think about with his own games, designed for his casual gaming audience.Whether your players stick around for ten plays or a hundred, the real secret is the same: Whether they’re crushing their opponents with clever plays or laughing together as they stumble through ridiculous challenges—great games create space for players to shine. This is a public episode. 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