Elseworlds Exchange: A Chat with Scott Snyder

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Alright, let's get on with the show. Weeding down upon the underworld to smash gangland, come a friend of the unfortunate enemy of criminal. In a serious, powerful character, a problem to the police, but a good state of law. Hey, everyone, welcome to the House of Exchange.

I'm Sal, and I'm joined today by Scott Snyder. Thank you so much for being here again, Scott. Man, I really appreciate that you will come to me and just be like, Hey, you want to do a show? And I'm like, dude, I'm thinking that all the time.

Let's do it. Yeah, I worked with Glass. Yeah, it's a good time with you last time. And I was like, I've been looking forward to doing it again.

I felt last time it was warm out. I was like ready. I was outside. I think even this time, it's like snowing as we speak out here.

So I'm hiding in the basement where it's nice and warm away from my kids. But not doing it anytime. Well, thank you very much, man. So we got a lot to cover, kind of, in terms of like what you've got coming out.

I know we definitely want to plug and talk about your new arc on Justice League 19. Sure. First of all, Oregon Minnes's art. Oh my God.

Holy shit. I know this dude. Also, like, he's so funny because I met him a couple of years ago. I saw his art when he was starting on Super Suns and a couple other things and realized like, I wanted to work with him and, you know, I got in touch with him and then got to go through a few cons.

And not only is he like one of the nicest guys and one of the most talented, but he's also like, unequivocally the most handsome person in all of comics. You know, I never seen a picture of him. I have to assume. Dude knows, dude finds the beauty in everything.

It would stand to reason that his like, his visage is that of like the people of the program. He is like, he is basically like a Spanish Superman. He lives in, in Spain. He is incredibly social and wonderfully personable and we become really good friends.

We have like, the way I like to work, you know, I get to know an artist first and then see if we click as people. And, and honestly, like the goal is always to try and develop a relationship that's going to extend beyond the book that you're on. So Jorge, we're already talking about creator on stuff post-justice league and we share a lot of interest. He turned my whole family onto manga, which, you know, I've always read it in a minutely.

I'm like the first old generation, like Akira, and Battle Angel, Elito, and, you know, all that stuff. And all the kind of anime of like, Macross and that stuff. But he turned my kids on to like, my hero, academia, and now they're reading Naruto and, you know, everything. So we become really close.

But I can't say enough good things about him. And one of the things I impress like, anybody watching this is like, the dude just has an inspirational energy about him. He, you know, he posts like, he posts a lot, every time I like send him something, like, I love this page or how you're doing. I was like, an amazing picture of him, like in a tank top where he's like, strong bro.

And he just motivates you when I'm like, wiping the shit out of my eye at like six in the morning. And I'm like, all right, this guy, he's getting me out. We're going to do this together. We're superheroes today.

Yeah. Well, he's a great guy to follow. And, you know, he did the first arc and then he did issue nine. But if you think about the span, he's actually been working on this arc ever since then.

So we wanted to do six issues consecutively to make one big book, like our most kind of epic arc that we could do so far on the book where he was the artist throughout the whole thing. And so he's been waiting to explode. He's up to issue. He's doing she 24 right now out of 25.

So this will be holy me and him. It'll be one region of doom with Francis Mattapal in the middle with, which I can't wait for you guys. You with that? We just went to the next game together and he was showing me the page.

We're doing crater on together, too. So I really is like, I don't know how to impress upon people enough that like, if you're an aspiring writer out there, you're aspiring creator to like develop relationships with your artists because just doing the book, you're on is half the fun. When you get to know them and you see what their interests are, it sparks creativity for you. And for me, I made up a crater on just for me and we're based on the stuff that we love talking about.

And you know, say in Francis and I are doing, they're going to do one of these all like crazy spoilers, stuff. But you know, the idea is to cultivate relationships over time. And then you get the best out of your artist and the best out of yourself. And this issue, honestly, like 19, as much as I'm crazy proud of what we've been doing on Justice League, the first arc second arc, I was in metal brain.

I wanted to show you everything that we were going to do. Then I slowed it down a bit. Now, this one really is kind of, I think the best, the best sort of blend of both where it's deeply emotional, but also crazy, which like Mr. Blake and Batman is in it, all kinds of crazy stuff.

So it's funny. I was one of the things I was thinking about asking earlier was, like, is what we're going to see, Batman? But having read issue 19, there is like a casual like line about Batman. Like, I fall Superman, the other guy falls Batman.

I'm like, okay, well, I know we're going to see. Oh, yes. You might be well spoiler. It's really is like, so what this works about just to give people a hint, like if they want to pick it up.

And honestly, I like, I swear, so I like, I get honest to be like, I'm going to talk to some topics, like I don't come on to hawk my stuff. But this happens to be a moment when I am really excited about the stuff we have coming up here and other stuff I can spoil for you too. Totally. But it's an arc that I wanted to design as something that anybody who has not been reading Justice League can come in and just see that it's the fun of the series, the kind of bombast of the series, but not feel excluded by the stuff that's happened so far.

And yet at the same time, if you have been reading a series, this arc is key. It really is like one of those things that everything that we've been building towards is revealed at this point, and all of it kind of comes into play. So this arc, what it's about is at this point in our series, essentially, the superheroes have realized that Lex Luthor and the Legion of Doom are secretly unlocking this cosmic goddess named Perpetua. Who is essentially the creator of our whole multiverse.

She created, she's the mother of our big celestial beings in the DCU, like the monitor, the anti-monitoring, and the world forage array from metal. And she was imprisoned in the source wall because she did something very bad in the way that she initially started our multiverse long, long ago. And so now that the source wall broke, which was all the way back in metal in 2017, she's free. And Lex Luthor is trying to revive her and empower her by unlocking these different forces.

And so the heroes are really at a down point when this arc starts. They realize this goddess, this cosmic goddess is almost awoken. The multiverse is falling apart. And they decide that the only way to stop this is to go to the sixth dimension.

Or that they think it's to go to contact Mr. Mixoply, who's a fifth-dimensional MP, he's like, you know, a classic character with the hat. And I'll show you, I'll show you, you can see he is, you know. No, no, no.

He's this guy right here, Mr. Mixy. He's awesome. He's like an imaginary, imaginary, lord of imagination.

They contact him to be like, we've gotten clues that the only way to save the entire universe, multiverse, is to go to the dimension you're from and reimagine it. And he's like, actually the map and the clues that you've gotten don't lead to my dimension, they lead to something even beyond the sixth dimension, which is what's beyond imagination. It's the control room of the entire DC universe, essentially, and it's only accessible moments of intense crisis. So this arc is like, it's super fun, you know, like, Mixoply, animates all of Metropolis and Metropolis attacks the Justice League and the Daily Planet Building has teeth.

And it's super, you know, like, out of control, kind of bright, I think. We also have a lot of gravitas. Like, this is the penultimate arc for our saga. The arc after this, spoiler, is going to be our big finale for this sort of, this segment of Justice League, this whole kind of first year and change, called Justice Do More.

That's going to bring in a lot of characters all across the DC, from the JSA to villains you don't expect to heroes, you don't expect all that stuff. So this is kind of the moment where if you haven't been reading series, you can totally pick up this one for the fun of Super Friends, for the fun of the Hall of Justice, characters you love, you won't be excluded. But you haven't been reading it, this is also the one that's the keystone. And it also not to keep going on and on, but it also sets up DC's Big Summer event, which is called Year of the Villain, that we're doing.

And we're doing a 25-cent issue in May that comes out on Free Comic Book Day. You can pick up for a quarter and it's like 30 pages or something long. It's a good deal for you guys. Yeah, it's not the usual Free Comic Day fair where it's like, okay, you got maybe a 5 page, 15 page original story, it's like a full book.

Oh yeah, I wrote it. I think we wrote, James Tynan and Brian Bendis wrote it and it's 24 pages, Jim Chung, just terrific, terrific art on the book. And essentially what it sets up is at that point, Lex Luthor, because of what he's been doing in Legion of Doom, realizes that the way that he's going to win, the way that he's going to energize this goddess he's been trying to raise, who's our kind of Galactus, this woman, Repetua, is to get everybody to believe in her. That's the last step.

Once people kind of worship evil and worship Doom across the world, she'll be fully capable of reshaping the entire multiverse the way she wanted it to be in the first iteration, or with Luthor as her kind of chosen son. And so it's called Year of the Villain and essentially what he does, I can't give away too much, but he makes a tremendous sacrifice so that all villains can rise and kind of do their best, biggest attacks on their respective heroes ever. You'll see it happen across a lot of books. Luthor kind of offers people things that will make their kind of attacks on their heroes really special and really definitive and big.

So it'll kind of give a big steroid boost to a lot of the kind of normal villain hero interaction where villains for the first time have the memes to really take down their heroes because of Luthor and all of it builds towards kind of whether or not he's going to be able to get people to side with Doom. And if he does, then that might engender something even bigger come fall that I can't talk about yet, but would be a continuation of some of the stuff that we've built in Metal. So it's one big plan, I'm really excited. I feel like all my time at DC, when I was on Batman, I was really terrified all the time.

I always thought, okay, they're going to let me do one arc and then kick my ass off because I'm doing quarter vowels, new villains, and joke over this face off and whatever. So what about doing one special story, put it on the shelf, the best thing you can do, swing for the fence and then assume you're going to get fired. Now, at this point in my career, I realized we can build things that are architectural over two to three to four years, the way Hickman did with the Avengers. Or they did it in general at Marvel when Bendis was doing Dark Rain, Dark Avengers, all that kind of stuff.

But this is that format. This is kind of when we did Metal. It was like if Metal works and people don't kick us out of the building for it, it will engender or birth just the goddessy, just the goddessy, just the dark. Those books will then swing around to Batman who laughs, we're going to announce another book soon, ties into some of the stuff that they're doing over in Superman, Batman, other things like that.

So it's one big plan and to see it come to a head now because we're in the production of it right now. I'm working on Summerfall. And with the announcements of Year of the Villain and that stuff, it really solidifies a lot of it. All of these things are going to come together in a way that I think I really believe this is the joy of comics.

Like the singular great story that you get to pick up and read in a modular way if you're just starting. But if you really are a deep fan and you're a DC crazy and you just want to pick up everything, it connects. You're not out in to pasture with like, oh, this story's out in the middle of nowhere. That story's out in the middle of nowhere.

I mean, there are always books that are outliers, but this thing we're trying to build from Metal to the end of 2020, honestly, is one giant epic saga. You'll see it. Like the second you see what Year of the Villain changes into are November stuff, December, January. Like that, I think you'll see, like they've been planning this a long, long time.

It's kind of remarkable. We were talking about this in a previous episode about stakes in comics and how it's like, it's a hard nut to cross. It's a hard nut to crack because everybody in comics has seen it, done it, been there, done that. And it's hard to say like, the universe is never the same and this happened and, you know, like, we took Wolverine's that man to me and everyone's like, oh, that was 20 years ago.

Now it's like, oh, this character died. Everyone's like, okay, well, sure, whatever. How do you read and integrate that kind of excitement and stakes when most of your readers are kind of like meta reading your comics, like they're reading their creators tweets. They're like reading the trades.

They're looking at the forwards. What's happening next? How do you do that? And I think what you're doing here with Justice League and what Hickman was doing with everything that he was doing back then, is the new way to revive that kind of feeling of gravitas in comics where you're like, things matter.

Things are changing. Things are actually happening. I hope so, dude. I appreciate you saying that.

I mean, it took a lot of learning for me too. When I started out, if we're going to just talk frankly, Jeff Johns was the real sort of showrunner at DC. And the way that he was able to do that was so impressive and inspiring all the time where he would take a lot of the kind of undercurrent story in DC and then sort of make it materialize into something that made sense, like rebirth or flashpoint. All these things that kind of were building, he would see that math and say, here's where the company where the line should go, what fans want, but also let's surprise them with things they don't know they want.

And now that he's kind of in a different role, you know, doing more special projects like Doomsey Clock and Three Jokers and the stuff, it's going to be great. But it's a little bit more less of like line driver month to month and more of a book that's going to sit on the shelf forever. That role has kind of weirdly fallen to me and the people that I've been working with in terms of metal to now. It was a really interesting math to learn.

And by the way, that doesn't mean like I'm the head, you know, I'm the head. Don't you know, don't you know, don't you know, don't you know, don't you know, don't you know, what your complaints and questions to Scott being like, yo, what are you doing at the DC Universe? Like, well, no, I mean, even more like I'll defer to Bendis or to Brian to Tom to I'm not like, hey, I'm, I just mean the story that I pitched when I did metal was a meta story. It was kind of, you know, I've been doing this the superhero comic thing now for this would be my 11th year coming in, you know, I D.C.

And the mantra when I teach, right, the thing I try and sort of impart to my students are the writers that are emergent writers coming into super hero comics in general simply that you have to stay the most exciting writer to yourself. If you're not your own favorite writer, even for all your flaws, but like for your ambition, then it's not worth it. And so I try every time, you know, it'd be very easy for me at this point. I think I said this to you last time.

You'd just be like, hey, I know how to write a Batman story at this point. It would be fun to just do, and there are a lot I have, like a small mystery with Penguin, a small mystery with, you know, a Roxy Rocket. But that would be playing it safe. And for me, the math of trying to create something that was universe shaking, not because it was an event that would get you to buy a million variant covers, but because it deeply re-investigated or explored the founding method.

And the founding mythology of DC Comics, that's exciting. You know, getting to be like, I created with my friends, the creators that I love, Josh Williamson, James Tynan, you know, the artists that we work with, Tom, Brian, Kelsey, like, get to re-create sort of founding mythology in folklore of DC so that now there's somebody who's behind the modern and anti-monitoring world forgery got to make up for metal and all that. That stuff is the challenge. And to make a story that makes you feel like they're not just trying to get my money.

They're not just trying to be like, look at the death of a character, or, you know, it's the 52nd variance of instead to be like, the reward is, no, they're doing deep dive building and it's 50 issues to get there. But when it gets there, it doesn't just kill somebody or do something that's going to be in the news. It does something that makes you look at DC differently, or look at your heroes differently, or look at, you know, the purpose of the DC universe differently. And so, what I mean is that to me is, you know, that's, if I got to tell my 10 year old self that, I mean, that's a golden ring.

So that's what we're trying to build to, sincerely, not just just as you, but with the DC you right now, you know, and I take the role of getting to do anything that stretches beyond a single book, very, very seriously, at DC, you know, and I want to make sure that kids coming in, adults that are long time readers feel like this stuff rewards me, you know, and I mean, like, if I read that many laughs along, great, you know, please do, and I hope you love it. You know, a book I can talk about that's going to be announced next month. We read it alongside Justice League, the next arc of Justice League. You say, oh my God, their seeds from that that are actually, you know, growing narrative over here in this book.

And what are they building towards? And then when we get summer fall, you'll say, oh, see, it was a giant. And then I can actually show the, I have a picture of the initial board from 2017 where it all goes to be like, see, they did have a plan. And the idea is that comics is one of the few things.

And I think the Marvel extended universe, the way they've been able to build a shared tapestry of story in their cinematic universe has been so impressive. But that's that they took it from comics. Like comics is the one, that was what we have. That's our thing.

And we do that better than anybody as well as they've done amazing under Kevin and all the stuff that they've done. I mean, I'm the biggest fan. That said, it's our job to make you feel as a reader that that's what we have that you go to comics to go to get to a place where it's one giant shared immersive universe. It's the same reason I love Dungeons and Dragons growing up, or you love, you know, so many of the things that my kid loves right now in line.

Like, you want to go someplace where you're transported to a world where everything rewards you because it's one immersive and developing universe. And when we do these stories, I want you to feel that way. When you get to the end and you're like, holy shit, what I read all the way back in metal one in 2017 just paid off here, even though that story is standalone, or what I read in Batman laughs or what I read in Justice League number one, because there's teases by the way in Justice League number one, when Martian Manner has his vision of the future of that, that will play out literally at the end of this year in February of 2020, you will see some of the things he saw in issue one payout. And yeah, so anyway, I'm totally, I'm totally, I'm like down a million different rabbit holes, but my thesis, if I could say one thing is that our goal is basically to make you feel as a reader that's not a reader.

And if you feel as a reader that whatever you pick up, whether if it's in our kind of wheelhouse of books pays forward and that we're not taking your readership for granted. And instead, we want you to feel like we're architecturally trying to build something that rewards you with each singular book because we want each one to be good, each arc. But that said, we want you to feel like you are the DC universe. And if you keep reading, all of it comes together in a way that makes you feel like, wow, you know, it's one tapestry that I'm a part of.

And my investment in it paid off exponentially because I understand every little facet of this massive story they've been telling. And if you don't, that's fine too. You just take one story, take one and leave it totally cool. But we don't need to feel like, hey, I picked up all these things and they don't come together.

It's all each separate. That's the Netflix model. You go there, a million different shows, glad I went to DC Comics, but every comic is separate. It's important for us to feel like we have really special things like Mr.

Miracle or some of the YA stuff we're doing or Black Label, which I'm working in as well. But in the superhero universe and the DCU, it should feel the way that the Marvel Cinematic Universe feels right now, which is that each story pays forward to the next story as much as it's a great thing alone, like Spider-Man Homecoming or Black Panther. The next thing also feels like, wow, connected and built on that. So anyway, that's my kind of giant, that's my last, I'm sorry, my last dump speech.

No, I think, well, I'm sure we'll get to other places that we have to feel passionately about that we want to sell. But in this case, I'm not hearing the chatter that you hear normally when it comes to a tentpole book like Justice League. But the chatter is basically just like, there's a cool story and I can see they're actually building towards something. And there's no, I don't really catch a hint of cynicism about it where they're like, add a building towards action figures or posters or movies or whatever.

They're just telling a big story. I'm hearing Hickman-esque, I'm hearing all these other things. And it's like, I can see that the care and effort is put in to tell a story that is coming from a place of originality and genuine desire to tell a story as opposed to like some, just to sell varying covers, like you said. I promise, I'm bad in the way that I don't give a shit about varying covers and I don't...

Neither do I, so it's rough. I'm not the target audience for that kind of selling. Yeah, I feel bad because that's not the stuff that I put my energy into and honestly, there are things that I feel like I should put more energy into to sell the book in that lexicon of factors. Like I should be able, I should do more of that.

But the thing that I'd say to fellow readers is just what you said, which is, to me, the payoff is as a kid. I remember what it felt like to go and read X-Men. I was at my parents' house for Thanksgiving and I went and I still had my old blonde boxes back and I just seen the volume of books I bought. Not for some cynical sales reason, but to see my investment in years-long story from Claremont, all that stuff, it made me realize the importance and the power of loving a narrative universe.

Loving something that pays forward and is cumulative and propulsive and feels like it's one thing, even if it's structured in such a way that you can jump on a different point. The one thing I'll say is if I had a compass in this role or whatever role it is to do Justice League and to try and build towards event stuff, it's that I don't want you ever to feel like we're taking you for granted as a reader. I promise we're not, like, to create a move on the side. I'm never trying to do something flashy to get you in the door.

I'm trying to be like, I want every issue to feel like I got more than my money's worth. That's always been my thing. I certainly screw up in that way too, where I think I sometimes shove too much in because I don't want you to feel like you got ripped off. I remember when it took me to the comics store, everyone went to Forbidden Planet, when it was the old Forbidden Planet on 11th Street and Broadway with the upstairs in the downstairs room.

I had my allowance and I went, if comics were $299, $399, $499, I'd be broke. I'd buy one comic. I try to be sensitive to that and make sure that you guys out there know that we're building something that pays a narrative not in speculation or not in a sensational one story bombast. Right.

It's interesting because comics have kind of, the more things changed more than they say in terms of how comics are this place that is unlike anything else and yet when movies and stuff happen, you'll see the comics reflect those things, which is always frustrating as a comic reader because you're like, I know the difference between this and that. You don't need to make this look like that just because that is bigger and where people are watching it. Just proportionally speaking. But the joy of reading an interconnected universe of characters that have been around for 75 years, who all know each other or influenced by each other, even born from each other's books, you know, characters that have found new life or their own autonomy but were born in a Superman event where they were for Superman.

You know, like all this stuff is part of a cohesive living organic world that you are rewarded for reading and enjoying and loving. And there's something to be said for like exploring and celebrating that the way that you guys are and the way that like DC fans and I think Marvel fans as well, but like people come with fans, particularly with the big two, like love to read about. Like that's what we're in here for. I remember it's really weird when that happens in like the big two and you're like, when you know that things from outside media are influencing the zeitgeist and you're kind of like, okay, well, why did you do that?

Yeah, it sucks. I remember, I think we read comics around the same time. So like, remember when chapel killed spawn, and then life failed got kicked out and everybody and they had to change it and you went like, well, that's the nature of your independent characters. That's what image is.

Then you see it happen and you know where that'll never happen. Marvel DC. They're all on by the same company. They all do their own characters.

That's kind of like at least some kind of security when you're reading those kinds of stories. You're like, these characters are all here. They're not going anywhere. At the same time, I think we can be really callous sometimes with our characters and as somebody now who's in the room at least when we're making some of the decisions as a team with characters that have 70 or 30 year histories, whatever, five year histories, I think the important thing is to make sure that we're growing a universe that both invites new readers and also honors the legacy that older readers like myself, you know, really hold dear.

It's a really interesting balance. It's a very volatile moment. I understand that, you know, well, that there's a real push because, you know, print itself is difficult for books. I'm from a book background.

I always wanted to be in comics. That was always my goal. I had art portfolio through college. I went to a college in Providence because RISD was nearby and that was my goal.

It was to be an artist writer like Frank Miller, Mike McNuller, you know, that would be it. But I wound up getting into prose more for logistical reasons and that stuff and loving that and but the same things that you see happening anywhere with a form like, you know, print. It's difficult. They're challenges because readers are picking things up digitally as well.

And, you know, there's there's opportunity and expansion and, you know, strange kind of lateral opportunities that suddenly appear out of nowhere that you don't expect. It's a really interesting fluid moment. But, you know, in terms of, I think that the the cynicism that kind of sets in about, well, the reason that this isn't working is X or the reason isn't working is why when it comes to a single thing. It's a real constellation of things that we have to fix, some of which I think are sales initiatives and different kinds of priorities about the way we sell comics to retailers.

But ultimately, I think the thing that we should look at as well, in addition to, you know, sort of looking at all of our problems with a very pragmatic and clear eye, is looking at the possibilities and the excitement around some of the potential that comics have both in print and in digital and what you're saying about that kind of long form immersive story. We had that, whether it's in print, whether it's in digital and or whether like the Marvel Cinematic Universe has kind of reminded us what we're supposed to be. That sense to me of being transported to a place where everything winds up being a positive feedback loop of story is so special to comics. It's, it's born in comics, you know, in that way.

And that, that's something that we can't not only avoid taking for granted, but we have to maximize. We have to maximize it because it is important to have special projects. It is important that, you know, they're creating our own comics that are individuated things that we find because we consume things so differently now too. I mean, not to go down another rabbit hole, but I think it's important to consider the fact that like my kids, you know, or consumers nowadays that are coming up in this world, it's Netflix kind of model.

They don't look for a central kind of funnel of entertainment. There isn't like a, you know, whatever it was, total recall or MTV, you know, whatever that what we watched or top 20 with K.C. K.S.M. or, you know, Thursday nights, cheers, there isn't that thing.

No. You know what they watch? The Simpsons, like 20 year old episodes, The Office, they find manga, they find games they love. Like they're, they're all about creating their own communities, but those communities themselves are immersive.

And I think that what we need to do to kind of combat is not lean into the sense of well, let's make extremely individuated projects. So we only have things that are like a special book for somebody to find over here, a special book for somebody to find over there. And we do have, we have means of doing that through Black Label or Vertigo or Prestige Format. The way Mr.

Miracles with Fantastic Examble with that. But if we use that as a model for our comics in general, I think we throw out the most powerful sort of, you know, element that, or, or, you know, benefit or sort of attractive feature that we have for the medium, which is beyond just being this amazing, you know, format visual storytelling format. It's built on an idea of a tree of story, a universe of story where these characters know each other and have relationships and histories and interact. And that doesn't mean you can't change those things and take them directly.

It's going to happen. Well, like everything that I've done, you know, I know that I'm now kind of in a position where people look back and, oh, you know, Black Mirror, A Quarter of Alle's, 10 years ago, or whatever it is. But at that time, creating a son for Jim Gordon, I got a lot of hate. You get a lot of hate all the time.

You know, a lot of things that you see about people saying, I'm going to find you to con and view. You know, we all get that. If you're on a major character, you're going to get it. You know, no matter what, if you do anything daring.

You know, from go, we have good or bad, and I made my mistakes. But like, you know, you'll always have fans that get upset at you that way. So my feeling is mostly if you're going to go out there, it's important to be bold and to tell stories that you're passionate about and not be afraid to upset, you know, longtime fans. If you are a longtime fan yourself as a creator and know that the direction you're heading in is going to eventually reward readers in a way that's better than whatever existed that you're usurping in some way.

But that said, it's also important to understand that the book that you're working on has a legacy and is not only sort of a singular legacy, but a legacy of connection and communal storytelling. It should be influenced by and influence other books. So that's kind of my new, that's where I am now. Whereas, you know, again, when I was on Batman, I was like, I always was scared of being fired, or, you know, I was very, the pressure of that book and the immediacy of it.

When I started it, never thinking I'd ever get to write it. And I was young as a writer. And I was like, you know, that I was always like, let me do one story that's 11 issues and then if they fired me, that's fine. It's much more about trying to do stories within the DC Universe that longtime fans and new readers feel like are built in a way that invites them in are inclusive, then honor the past, but take them to places that are completely new and unexpected, which is what this arc is literally, it literally is like, it takes you, it's Mr.

It's Mixie, you know, he comes in and he's just the villain you've always known him to be with his hat and his little pork pie thing and all that stuff. And yet the place they go to the sixth dimension, reinvents a lot of the history of the DCU and that that's what I want. Justice League is about giving you comfort food. It's saying like, here is the JLA, the JLU like animated, you know, line up.

At the moment you come in the door, the Legion of Doom does something that says, whoa, the story's bigger than I thought. Yeah. So, you know, that's the goal. So anyway, sorry, I'm like, no, this is like the, I'm on the couch about comics now and sort of telling you all my, all my thoughts and feelings.

That's what I want this show to be like is just talking about comics. I mean, like, so often on this show normally it's like one topic we just hash out, but like, this is the topic is comics and we're going to talk about it through your filter. So, you know, because you're here. You're like, what do you do?

Because it is, it's a challenging moment. You know, what do you do? Like, you know, print readership is difficult. You know, it doesn't mean that it can't swell again.

And my hope is that the kinds of stories that we're trying to do now with the kind of, if we really try and wrap a lot of stuff around that narrative and also give everybody room to do special stuff and really make sure everyone's stories good. We can bring more people in for print and print can grow. So I'm not, I'm not like some, you know, I'm not fatalistic or, you know, a naysayer or some kind of like doomsday person about print at all. But like, what's that said, I think it's also a moment that gives us opportunities to sort of reinvigorate print and also explore different avenues that are outside of it to be able to bring into readers so that we grow our audience, you know, and that means not just looking backwards, looking backwards, honoring all that stuff and then going, trying new characters and if they fail, they fail, trying new storylines, if they fail, they fail, you know, you try new things.

But I don't know, I just, my trajectory has been so surprising to me. Like, you know, I came in and was very, very much not rebellious about it, but I mean, I came in in a way where I was so sure that the way comics worked was that, you know, I would get one chance to do one story and then they would never call me again or call me a year later. I never thought there was going to be a consistent opportunity for me, just because I wanted to do it for so long. I was just, so I guess, I was defending myself against getting my heart broken.

I was like positive. You got one shot, you can do it, you're gonna get out. And that's it. Like, now you're gonna leave, but they're gonna fire you.

It was always about trying to make that dark night return to do something that was special, each arc. And, you know, each one creating a son for James, for Jim Gordon or creating a possible brother for Bruce and a quarter of apples existing for many, many years, Joker, you know, having maybe been in a cave and cutting his face off. When I pitched those things, there was, you know, it was always resistance. It was always like, you know, it might fans might react poorly, but the idea was always you try and show them in the DNA of the book that you're doing that you love these characters so much that you would never do anything.

It would be sensational or that would be at odds with the core values of who they are. You're trying to push them forward because the books that made me want to read, you know, or be a comic book writer in the first place. Now they're so ensconced in like the glass case of whatever, but I mean dark night returns was wild when you read it and I love reading the hate mail from it. I still have some of them posted on my computer screenshot of like some of the letters that came in to DC Comics about I'm never reading Batman again.

You've ruined it with that book. No thing. I know that up because that's, every, it's so great to look at the media and the fan reaction to like pivotal shit that comes out. Oh, this is, I remember when Kingdom Come was coming out and people were.

I feel like my original issues were issues of that. Right, exactly. And like I remember like just reading Wizard Magazine and Wizard being like, there's this thing. I don't know if it's gonna shit the bed.

It looks kind of cool. I guess. I don't know what Magog's all about, but whatever. And I'm like, okay.

And it's, you know, and just seeing the critical reaction of that being like, I don't know if it's gonna work. And then of course knowing what it's gonna become dark night returns. I'm sure Year One got as much flack as anyone else. Oh dude.

And remember like, you know, there's things that are problematic about that book and difficult and challenging and growing up in New York City. You know, for me, those two books dark night returns and that made Batman immediate and relevant and real to me. And yet at the time I was, I was unsettled by them where I was like, is that a villain that has her breasts out and Nazi? And then like in Year One, I was like, God, is he really, is he that dark and inept?

And like, but it really works. And you read it and you realize it's in service of something greater, which is to make the characters matter, to make the characters resonant and to revitalize them for a new generation. And you know, that's what's exciting is to see my son, you know, we just, I could hear, I don't know if you heard him, but I can hear him off the bus. I mean, like, it'll probably come down and want to play, you know, Fortnite or whatever Apex or whatever the new one is, like on this TV.

To see him discover, you know, a new version of the character or a version of the character that's not radically different, but it's his. And a lot of the goal with zero year things that we did on Batman was to try and be like, we wanted it to feel diametrically opposed to Frank Miller, the things that came before, not because we don't love those things. I love them more than anything. You know, I have a Frank Miller sketch and it's my, it's been framed right now where I bring it out to show you, but it's like, literally my, you know, my, if I had to come in and save things from my house other than living beings, like my children and my car cats and everything.

Yeah. It would be like my thing, you know, but the, but you know, those, those at the time, those books are also really upsetting. And I think we have like a really great moment in front of us, which is, there's a lot of, a lot of volatility, a lot of opportunity, a lot of, you know, worry and concern and anxiety. But there's comics right now where the character is in a culture of comics is more popular than it's ever been.

And we have to find a way of remembering, I think, the most essential strengths of what our sort of medium offers and leaning into those. One of those things is this immersive, giant universe. One of those things is telling stories that are bigger and have a bigger budget than any movie ever. Right.

So the other thing, you know, passion, personal passion, it's really, you know, going in there and making sure that you're telling a story that matters to you. It's about something. All of that stuff is, you know, just re, I think kind of, you know, reaffirming the core things that make comics popular when they began and, you know, trying to, trying to go back to our roots now in that regard. Exactly.

You want to give them, you want to give the reader something they've never seen before and something that like, you're giving them like a $600 million action movie. And it's more rewarding because it, you can take bathroom breaks, you know, it's, there's no actor that's going to like have an ego and ruin what you're doing. Like you just, you just get to play in this universe and tell the biggest or the smallest stories you ever want to tell. And as long as they come from the hearts and as long as you care about how the story is, it's going to be rewarding.

It's going to be, yeah. I mean, look at something right now, like a mortal Hulk, right? I mean, they're killing it on that book, dude. And, or, you know, what Donnie is doing over with Venom.

Yeah. Like, I read those books and I'm like, yes, because they're doing something bold and different with those characters. And yet they're so in love with everything in the DNA of those characters that it feels true. And that's what you need.

And then the way that, you know, not to go across the aisle, but I'm good friends. I love Donnie. Like, we're friends, friends. And what he's been able to do, Donnie, Kate's with Venom and the way they're building to this carnage event is just great because it does what we're talking about.

It does something bold and different and yet it honors the past. And then it also kind of builds outward towards the rest of the Marvel Universe in a way that feels organic. Yeah. You know, and that, that's what comics has.

I feel like it has this, it has this wonderful sort of appeal of fans are so, we have the best fans in the world in my opinion. Like, because it also takes an active imagination and dedication when you pick up a comic book to just complete it. I mean, you know, it's panels. It's, you know, you pick this up and I'm telling you a story.

You know, I love this one by the way. You released that picture. I think ahead of the, like, the previews of this book. It was like such a rewarding image.

It's just bad. I think you mentioned it up. Basically, Batman is, I'll tell you that in the very early part of the book, like Perry White says, this Superman, um, she says Superman is kind of in his office. And Perry White doesn't want him to leave before he finishes writing his article.

And at one point he's talking about Bruce Wayne. And he's like, Bruce Wayne has like a kind of weather station. He's set up in Metropolis, which is obviously part of the Justice League plot. And he's like, ah, that damn Wayne.

He's like Wayne's running into town with his damn muscles and his damn muscles. And he's like, I told him he pads his suits. And then I love this moment. Like later on when everything comes to a head and Superman is about to go into the sixth dimension and they never, they don't know if he's going to die or he lives.

He's going to live Batman's like, you know, the only one more stubborn than me, Clark. And then he's like, by the way, you know, I don't pad my suits. I know Bruce. I know.

I know Bruce. I know. Yeah, there are. But anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that, you know, when we have stories like this, I think like what Donnie's doing or what Al's doing or what Nick is trying to build on Spider-Man.

Well, we have over here, too, with what Brian is doing over at Superman. I mean, between Leviathan and if you're not reading that, it's basically about the Leviathan organization, this villain organization, eating, kind of taking down all the other villainous organizations and becoming our really big bad, like our Hydra, you know, our Cobra in the, in the VCU. And it's a great story. You're offering fans that sense of, wow, I haven't seen this before.

At the same time, it feels inevitable because it incorporates so many elements of the past and honors the past in a way that feels like it's just building on it. So, I love those aspects of what's going on right now. And we have a lot of challenges. And I think there are things that we need to fix about DC and Marvel.

And I'm a part of that problem in some ways. And I'm here to help with it as well. But ultimately, I just think there has to be some optimism about where we're headed, both because so many of the books right now are so strong. And on top of that, fans love these characters.

And you see it happening across the world, where they're in love with geek culture. And as much as we have all of these different opportunities that are disruptive in some ways, but also exciting, like indie comics, which I'm completely in as well, outside of DC and Marvel. Or the Netflix, the idea that so many different platforms are now looking to comics for IP, for intellectual property. So, the second we do an indie comic now, it sells for TV and stuff.

I'm like, there's so many things happening that we don't talk about, I think, online, or talk about the conversation about comics, because they're, I don't know if it's because they're more internal things that creators talk about, or if it's because it's easier to talk about, oh my God, Princess dying, or oh my God, they need to do this with the line, or that with the line, or whatever. That's where media is. You can't simply say something nuanced. You can't say, oh, this is a problem that has a lot of different facets, and it requires a subtle approach that will take about five to 10 years to fix.

You have to say, everything's dying, or it's all gonna be destroyed. You gotta burn it all down. You can't just say, this is a problem here. It's not all broken.

That problem that you're pointing to often contains some of the potential growth of the industry as well. You hear people, certain corners here, yelling about comics should be this. Other corners over here are saying, no, no, no, no, they should be that. When in fact, this sort of problem, some people point to about variant covers, that they point to about the line being sort of scattered in terms of having different sorts of books all over the place where this one looks prestige, this doesn't connect, this, those are problems.

And yet at the same time, we're learning from those that their audiences that suddenly want things that are disconnected, that are special prestige books, like Mr. Miracle or Doomsday Clock, where they do really respond to brand new characters, suddenly you never know. And so it's just the thing that I'd say to everybody right now is that instead of looking at the things that aren't working by way of looking for people to blame for it, whether it's, and we should, we take the blame, like, you know, publishers created for things that sometimes put retailers or fans in bad positions because we should never do that. Also look at some of the things happening as, I think almost signals for different directions that we can go in for opportunities and comics while still making sure that the things that are sacred to us and need to be protected are protected in ways that are important, you know what I mean?

So that we're always bold and we always take risks with our characters and we try new characters, we try new narratives, we're always doing it because that's the way comics is always been. But we also have the right way of making sure you as a reader know this comic that isn't in continuity, that is special, is that. And this comic that is going to drive the line is that. And this comic that's a way a comic is that.

And this comic where we're trying to appeal to kids is that and in that way we're always trying things and being bold and being inclusive and diverse and progressive, all those different things. And yet there's a sense of purpose to it and there's a sense of invitation and not a sense of chaos, you know. I think you see, I really am proud of how DC has been the last, you know, I think, I'm not saying that by way of criticizing what we're doing, because I'm really proud of the way that we are now, but I just think the point I'm trying to make is that it's a really fluid time where there's so many interesting opportunities for comic book readers, comic book companies, all of it. And the challenges, they're logistical, they're a constellation of issues when it comes to distribution and we sell comics and the amount of money that goes to print and all of it.

And we need to figure out a way to make sure that the industry is constantly respecting and rewarding long time readers and inviting new ones in the print and other medium. And that's it, you know, for me. So. I was just talking about you.

I feel like I'm. No, I gotcha. It's funny because we're seeing more comics than ever and more comics for everyone than ever, which doesn't mean that there aren't comics for you. You know what I mean?

People aren't being robbed of the books that they always have wanted to read for 30 years, nor are we only making books for long time readers. And when I say we, I mean you, but I mean like in general, the industry itself is like making books for everybody. And the only issue that I see in terms of like getting those books to people is the new model, which is to say there is no model of content, like aggregation. Because I was talking to Mike Cozy the other day about how like CBS All Access, a long night nerd is.

And I was like, oh, Star Trek Discovery just got renewed for a third season. And he's like, yeah, that's the only thing they have. That's how, that's like the only thing that people, they need to get CBS All Access working because they've invested millions of dollars into this thing. And you need the show people are using the service to watch.

So obviously it'll be renewed until they cancel the entire thing. And it's like what CBS and many groups don't understand is like you don't, you're not like a channel anymore. Like you can just make content and make it available to the aggregators out there. Right.

You know, disperse that content. But the flip side of that coin is that no one knows where to, there is no TV guide. There's no way to know where to get your content. And it's interesting because like the burden of responsibility of like making sure that the right readers know there are books for them falls on the creators themselves, the publisher, the audience fans, like some of us like over here on YouTube, I know people are like, what am I supposed to be reading right now?

And I'm like, dude, I don't know. You know, like I know what's out there. Yes, if there's so much. And it's just interesting because like it's not unlike like the destruction of the source wall in the building of something new.

Like the destruction of the concept of a network and how like all content is just free flowing out there and there's some amazing stuff that like you won't even know it's there because there's just so much stuff. That's exactly what I mean. I mean, I think that we're in an era right now where, you know, there's just a very subjective model of consumption where you essentially make your own, my kid takes pride in finding things that other people outside of his friends don't see. So they all watch the office from the night, you know, and the offices I love it.

I'm happy to talk with it. His friends and he, their collective sort of pop culture memory of this moment will be that they watch the office and stand by me and these things they found themselves. And opposed to what we had, which was like a funnel of central entertainment that came at a certain time from certain networks and whatever. I think those are things that comics are dealing with right now, the model of consumption because think about the opportunity right now, right, with image, right?

With indie comics, right, and there's such a robust and rich landscape of creator-owned comics. And creators, I can go over there, right? And if I do an indie comic at this point, it usually it will get, you know, some interest from TV and film, not because I'm so amazing, but because they're so aggressive right now because all these different channels and platforms, YouTube, Hulu, Amazon, you know, Netflix, all of them are desperate for intellectual property, whether or not they make the show or movie or not, they're after it because that's the model is use our thing because we have things that shows that other people don't, that are specific to our model or our platform, our channel. So that whole world has just blown up, you know, whereas before, when I was starting on comics even just 10 years ago, it was beginning, but it wasn't the same at all.

And you couldn't, you know, you made a living in superhero comics and your passion for your indie comics, you kind of, you did as you could, you know, and it was different than the original image model with, you know, life out with Rob and Todd, those guys, it was really like, you could go over and hopefully make a living doing indie comics, but then it changed. And when I was doing witches, all of those things, it was surprising where TV and film, they swoop in and you have money from those things. And so that not only is it like a viable avenue suddenly for creators to be able to do their own stuff and to kickstart things or do them self-publish, which is a wonderful thing to go out and do your own career, however you want. But it also influences, I think, the model of Marvel and DC in a way sometimes because they'll see that and say, well, how do we create singular things that people want to pick up and feel are special just to them?

Yeah. The other way that an indie book is, you know, because indie books are not interconnected, it's, you know, it really is like, if you get witches, that's your special book or you get, you know, wicked and divine, that's your special series. And that stuff, and that's the model nowadays, is you find Piki blinders, or you find you, or you find whatever that show is, and you're like, this is my thing. Right.

And I think we have to balance all those things. Like, that's where we are, is that the thing that I guess I'm getting at is this, like, I wish there was less anger and blame for the things that people feel aren't working in comics, but there should be all those things. And I think that we're trying to fix the things that we don't like, whatever it may be, whether it's being too beholden to the past or being too radical with the ways we change our characters in terms of their histories or their story, whatever, you know, whatever thing that we're upset about, because we try everything on both sides, you know, all the time, meaning of the ways that I think that we try and take advantage of old time readers or longtime readers, such as myself, that sometimes don't pay off. And there are ways that we try and grab new readers that do a disservice to the stories that have come before in terms of erasing certain stories or saying, oh, that didn't happen now.

It's all brand new, you know, in some way that dismantled readership from a while ago. And the key isn't just trying to please everybody. That's not what I'm saying, but I'm saying that if we look at the landscape, there are ways of doing both now that are bold and different and interesting, where if you bring in creators that are passionate about these characters, which we are, you know, I'm really proud of our lineup from everybody, from, you know, Tom and Brian to Willow and Kelly Sue and Josh and James, and I'm really proud of who's at DC right now. You know, we were Lando, like we have a really good team, you know, Brian Hill, like, you know, that by means of their own passion for these characters, they will find ways of both honoring the past, like to do an inventive, but also trying things that might shake you up a little bit, and also invite you in so that it doesn't feel that they're just isolated single books that someone is doing to do and get out the way I used to.

That we're all in it together and the idea is to build these stories, grow them out of the soil so that they have deep roots in kind of the past, go places you wouldn't expect, and then also enter Twang with stories that you didn't think that they might, to build one cohesive universe. I mean, that's the goal. So I just, I wish there was less, you know, resistance in some ways to con exchanging because, look, I go to a con nowadays, I remember what it was like to go to a con when I was a kid and, you know, when you work with my father and they were tiny and it was just, you know, a bunch of kids that were buying comics from a long box from old guys, you know, and now you go to a job at center and there are people from all over the world and they're young people and old people and people from all walks of life and genders and races and ethnicities and orientations and everything. And that's tremendously inspiring.

You know, it's all these different opportunities to not only tell stories for a new audience, but bring in new people to be able to tell stories for themselves that are brand new and reinvigorate these characters in ways that are exciting. It's almost like to me, the audience and the possible pool of creators and readers is more robust and diverse and interesting than it's ever been more rich than it's ever been. The creative opportunities in terms of the different ways that we can make comics distribute comics, all of those things are again more more sort of multifaceted and changing and fluid and interesting than they've ever been and their challenges with those things as well. But it's such a great time in that way in my mind as much as it's scary because things are all over the place and who knows that I get really hopeful about it.

You know, when I go to a con, it just makes me really hopeful to see people discovering comics, to see different different audiences than there used to be in different ways in terms of kids from all over the world finding comics through manga or TV or cartoons or whatever they find them through. You know, it's, I don't know, I like to think of it as a moment that has so much opportunity and potential for ways of doing comics that both fulfill all of the kind of deep history and and sort of legacy of print and the stuff that we should do really well and the characters and their in their kind of, you know, in all their glory and yet at the same time offers us opportunities to push boundaries in new ways as well. So I don't know, maybe that's, it's, I sometimes I worry about it where I'm just like, am I, is that, does that sound insane wrong? I mean, or, I think it's a, Oh no, I think, I think anytime you're like, you know, I'm excited for the future and I think that like getting tools that allow more comics to be disseminated throughout more groups of people, that's always going to be a good thing.

There's no version of that where that's like hurting the industry. That's it. We have to find ways of reaching a new audience and making sure that the audience that loves the books feels, also feels like they're being treated well and not being taken advantage of for financial reasons sometimes, you know? Yeah, the industry has been sensationalizing, like the industry's been dying since I started reading comics.

This before death of Superman. Exactly. As a kid, you know, it's dying. It's ruined the new crop creators doesn't respect the source material, everything's being destroyed.

I mean, like when Marvel and Bangriff, that was kind of a surprise. That was a little bit of an actual thing to be concerned about. But I, even when Marvel and Bangriff, I was never, I mean, like, I was pretty young. So it was hard to like really articulate those feelings.

But like, I was never like, they'll go away. There was never any concern of like, I'm never going to read these comics again. They're never going to be here again. And the fact is like, comics are so essential to the human experience that there is, there's no version where they won't be there.

And the industry, while it does stumble and make, and sometimes forgets to see the forest with trees. Like, it's, it knows how to protect itself, I think. Yeah. And I agree.

And I think it's the enduring nature of these characters and also the appeal of the medium itself that immersive, transport of amazing, passionate, you know, way of storytelling that is resonant. I mean, about that people are able to convey things emotionally, intellectually, politically, all those things that matter to them on the biggest stage possible with the craziest sort of tools at their disposal, that make you feel like you're in a completely different place in a way from your life or immediately in your life, depending on the comic, you know, it's, it's incredible to me. And I think, you know, going off of what you were saying about it, too, I just think, you know, I read a lot of things, for retailers, points of view, I talked to my, my local shop, Fourth World, I'm very close to them. I've been going to this since before I broke in.

I remember the day that I got my first opportunity at Marvel to write a one shot for the original human torch, like the robot one, and I ran in and was like, guess what? Guess what? So, you know, I've been going there forever. And we talk a lot about some of the things facing their side of the business and all of that.

And as much as they get worried about it, they're, they're also hopeful because their audience has changed as well and grown and they see more kids and all that stuff too. And I just think, I wish, I just wish people were less resistant to change and thought about more, how do we grow this industry for everybody? Growing it or doing things in new ways doesn't mean that we're suddenly throwing out the baby with the bathwater, you know, all of us working in it. Like, do you think that I'm going to be like, fuck Batman, let me, you know, kill him and kill him and I want to kid Batman now for a new, you know, if I had a great story that honored Batman and brought him, you know, sure, I mean Gordon Batman, you know what I mean?

But the, but I'm just saying, none of us are in it just screwing anybody over. Like, you know, do you think you go into comics for money? Because you don't like, you know, I say that every time, like anytime anybody talks about like how, whenever we like show, we enjoy a movie or we really like when we push a big book or a Marvel or DC book, people on both sides will critic, like the criticism I love the most is like, you're in DC's pocket or you're in Marvel's pocket and I'm like, no, I'm not. That's what I mean, like the, like, you know, we're freelancers, you know what I mean?

Like, I go to my high school reunion and people have real jobs. They have the doctor or lawyers or whatever. They just go, you know, they just go to work. I mean, I'm lucky enough at this point, you know, I've done well, like I'm good.

I have a library of stuff for royalties that we do have. And that's the trick. I was talking like, my response is always like, do you know how many books Bendis wrote for Marvel? Right.

Like, exactly. At that one time, that's how he was able to like, make a library. Like, he was able to pay bills. He just took on more books.

Yeah. And I mean, I believe me, there was a period where I almost got divorced because I was writing, we had a kid and I was desperate and my wife was a resident and I was writing six books, I think at one point. And it was, I was up all night. I was drinking too much.

It was a mess, you know, and you, but I'm just saying nobody goes into comics because they're like, that's where the money is. No, yeah. Nobody's in it. The thing I just, you know, some people, they think that people come in here in their moonlight or they're in here for the wrong reasons.

I'd say that's just so not nobody that's writing a comic regularly does it because they're doing it for a payday or they're doing it for glamour. I mean, they're doing it out of love for the character and they're taking a risk with their livelihood, usually for it. So they all have the same passion you do. Like, we're all in it together.

I don't know how to express that more that you might not like what somebody does on a book for whatever reason. It might be too boring or classic or it might be too progressive. Who knows? Like, but they're not in there to because they're like, you know, ha ha, I'm here to make a, they're not carpet bagging and no, you know, they're saying like, so, you know, I just, I just, I just, I try, I mean, that sounds hokey, but I just, I just wish sometimes, especially the most vocal contingents that are so opposed to risk taking and change, I think in comics would be able to see that the people they think sometimes are taking too big risks or doing things in ways that are, you know, trying medium or or trying to move characters into stories that they might not expect or whatever it is that we're trying it because it's an incredibly exciting and fluid and different time and nobody is in it to hurt characters or to do things to characters that they think will get them a quick book, you know, I mean, like, that's the last thing any comic creator wants to do for love of character, love of medium and the day you're there to tell a story and to sell the book and exactly like, and you know what I mean, like half the time most of most of us, you know, most of us you struggle all the time with where's your next paycheck and we don't have health insurance from comics or whatever it is.

I'm, I'm spoiled rat at this point because of a long history with DC and whatever, but I'm just saying, when I'm large, it was three years, I was not and that's, I was a writer before that in prose and when I got married to my wife, I remember saying I'm never going to make any goddamn money ever. I just want you to know that upfront, like, but I love what I do and I really enjoy it and I'll always be happy doing it, but you know, and, and I've been very fortunate with the way things have gone, but I promise like at every stage, I've always been ready to be fired for Passion of Story and that goes back again, like Black Mirror, I mean, there was a lot of resistance to that story internally and Court of Elves, there was a ton of resistance to that story, but it was always like, all right, well, if you can't do it the way you want to do it within reason, taking notes, go within reason, but rather not do it and that's not because I'm in it because I want to get money, it's in it because you want to do something that matters for the character because you love the character and that's all I'd say is that at the end of the day, I wish there was a sense of, you know, we're at a really interesting crossroads that's challenging, but it's full of opportunity, I mean, you figure a way out, we need to figure a way that moves forward that grows, grows superhero comics, indie comics, invites new people in, celebrates the new voices, honors the past, all of those things and yet I look around, I see so many people, I think, or not so many, but it feels like some people, so adamant about just talking about the things they hate, you know, the things they don't like and to me, I just am like, you know how much more power there is in talking about one or two books that you love, like, why not go out there and say, hey, I love this thing, indie, Marvel DC, whatever it is, I mean, you know, most of the time these books need it, you know, even books you think are okay, usually are not okay, just go out there and say, I love this thing, why waste, you know, I just, I get no joy out of reading a comic, I don't like, even when it's by somebody who has bashed something I've done or any of that stuff, like it gives me no vindictive pleasure, and we think about the wasted effort for shitting on comics and talking about comics that you think are shitty, and making shitty comics as opposed to, you know, talking about stuff you love and celebrating stuff that you think is great, because that's the way you're going to grow it, not talk, because the stuff that doesn't, the reason is, like, believe me, like, I have a, sorry, we're like, we're so in the weeds, we're like, a 10-minute interview where I'm like, Justice League and Batman U.S. and my creative room, and, you know, like, out, oh, I love doing this, like, well, and I'm not interested in just being like, yo, here, pick up this book, I mean, we did that, like, and listen, like, and if I didn't read the book, I wouldn't want to do it, but, like, I like the book, and so, like, it's the same thing with anything we promote or talk about, like, if I didn't like it, I wouldn't do it, so. And the thing, yeah, you know, and I mean, the thing I'd say, though, also with what we're talking about, like, you know, with, with sort of going out and promoting the stuff that you love, like, you know, half the time, those things, you think, you think they're okay, they're not okay, like, they're, it takes so much effort to find an audience, when you're doing a small book, whether it's at DC or Marvel, or it's your own book and that stuff, and it's, you know, you're not making a lot of money from it, either way, you know, and it's just, I just, I wish there was a way of going out and being able to convince people that it would help things so much more to be able to celebrate the books that you care about than trashing the books that you, you dislike, or it doesn't mean we don't talk about criticism, because the thing I was going to say is, like, I love getting criticism when it's constructed, believe me, I have a pretty thick skin, I'm not at this point, I'm not, you know, if you tell me I suck, I'm not coming after you, it'd be like, right, because I've heard it all at this point, and, you know, if you don't think that most of us are called everything under the book at some point, when you're working on a character like Daredevil or Batman, Spider-Man, you are, right, because when I did, like, I was called, when I remember when I, we were working on Duke and for Thingam, and you, you know, you take it on one side politically for, for decisions that you make with a character where you feel like you screwed up, and maybe you, you have fans yelling at you because you think things are inorganic about the character, then you get it from the other side about you're trying to force characters that are new into a world that doesn't need them, and so I've been, you know, you've been called, most of us have been called everything, from like, you know, the right, the left, up, down, everything, so that is, yeah, and that is just by way of saying don't call out the things that you think need help and comics or need work, because we need to hear it, but- That's totally put it too, not to interrupt, but just like, just to put it that way and to think of it in that way, because I think rather than just calling attention to something that sucks, it's more like, call attention to something that you think needs help.

And how do you fix it? And how do you fix it? I mean, I swear to God, it's like, it really is one of those things where, of course, like, if you think there's something wrong in my book or not just my book, but with the industry, like, from the smallest things, the biggest, you should talk about it, and you shouldn't openly critical, and you should feel like you're heard, and all that, because we do. I look at a lot of criticism.

You know, I find it myself, you know, in that way, and I want it. I try and seek out things that are going to make me better. But that said, if you're giving criticism as just unconstructive, it's not only just like, oh, I don't like this, this is what's wrong with it, but not. And here's how I hope they do it, or here's what I think would fix it, you know what I mean?

Or, and if you're doing it in a way that's gleefully mean, or cruel, or you're taking pleasure in what you don't like about something to me, that's an immediate signal, I'm not really listening. Like, not just like, if you make something about my stuff and you're vicious in a way that's constructive, my first editor that I hired, Andy, was David Brothers, who was the first person when I just started on Batman to call me out on his blog and say, Scott Snyder always repeats the same kind of opening in his narration, and I say, it sucks, and I'm, but this is why he pointed it out, and he was right. And he went up hiring him as my editor on witches, because it was like, I want somebody that's going to be rude about the thing that I do wrong, and then helps me be better. But, you know, there was no gleefully mean shitty attitude about that, where he was like, this guy sucks, because blah, blah, blah.

The second you open with that kind of a feeling, or, you know, these people in the industry, this is why the second, it just shuts a conversation off, because you, when you make it personal or you attack in that way, for me, it just, nobody wants to hear the thing that you're going to say that's, you know, resonant, and it's about trying to have a conversation about like, hey, you know, if you're talking about me, Scott, I didn't like this in your book, because X, Y, and Z, I wish you would try to do, you know, A, B, and C, or I might not, I might not write you back and be like, thank you, and I promise, I'll never write you back and be like, I'm angry at you for that. I mean, I'll be in the mood to hear it at that moment, it might just like, see it and be like, I can't listen to that right now. Oh, yeah. I promise, the last thing I would ever do is be anything but grateful in some way for the criticism, if it's constructive, if it's not constructive, then you just kind of toss it out.

You know what I mean? But I would take that as a kind of model for the whole industry, you know what I mean? In terms of not just about talking about a comic book, but if you're devoting your time to trashing things or talking about what doesn't work in a way that doesn't A, offer solutions, B is personal or cruel, C is just gleeful, like taking pleasure in the, in the, you know, or humor. Yeah, like taking humor, like always remember, like, somebody, again, nobody goes into it for whatever, for money and somebody spent a lot of time trying to make something they care about.

Maybe it didn't work. I certainly don't comment on it, maybe it's because editorial made some changes, maybe it's because you screwed it up as a creator, who knows. But you know, nobody goes in there to be like, man, I don't really give a shit about this, I'm just putting it out there for whatever, very rarely. I don't know anybody that says that.

No. So the idea that you're going to come in and take pleasure and be mean about it, there's no, to me, there's no value in that. I mean, I understand that people love the idea of roasting things and saying, oh, there's an entertainment value in that. But even when the criticism is constructive, but I think there's a way of being really constructive with books when you're critical, when you're critical, it doesn't celebrate failure.

When you're celebrating failure, to me, it crosses a line and then you should be able to do it. Go ahead and do it. I'm not saying, you shouldn't, I'm just saying that it winds up falling into a territory that becomes unconstructed because the creator isn't going to want to listen to it. They're not going to want to hear what you have to say the minute they think that you're happy that they failed.

Do you know what I mean? Yeah, it's just down to conversation. Exactly. When you're yelling, if you yell, DC Comics sucks because I hate this book, there's nothing to take from that.

You know what I mean? If you're like, listen, I think that I really care about this book. I wish it was like this. They might take it or leave it, but there's a much better chance that they'll listen and we can have a conversation.

Exactly. The other and there's just so much of the former right now. It's like, and the former goes from a place of like, it's interesting because it's not just trying to tear something down. It's like, I'm, I personally feel like I put steak in, I have steak in this thing, but I also have no way of articulating.

I don't know how to make it better. It's hard, dude. That's hard. Right.

And that's, well, that's, that's a thing. It's like, I don't know how to make it better, but I know I don't like this. And because I have 18 different avenues through which I can directly reach out to a creator and tell them that they disappointed me, I'm going to take it because that's what that's, that's what I've learned. I can do and it's, I remember when, I remember, I'm guilty of this as well.

And I certainly was earlier on in my, before I had a career in his well, never worked for Marvel. It's because I remember when one were to happen. And for some reason I had jokes outside his email. And I wrote him an email, a big, long email.

And I think it actually went what you were going with where I'm like, I really don't agree with what happened here. And here's why. And he wrote back and he wrote this long email back where he's like, I really appreciate you said that. But like, here's what I learned working at DC Comics and here's why I think it would apply to this character and here's what I think you need to do level up.

And I was like, right on cool. But like, yeah, I can't. But like that, but like being that, that's what I'm saying. Like that happened with me.

I can name many times that as a fan, I reached out before the days of the internet and back at cons or things. But I thought people walk up to me and say, listen, I really didn't like this because this is, I know you're going to hate me. Like, I don't hate you at all. I appreciate you saying that.

And it's why. And I thought people come up and be like, I think you suck. And you're just like, thank you next, you know, I'm trying to initiate a conversation and say, I think you suck and I swear to God, like a guy with his son did that to me at one of the last cons. My son thinks you suck.

And the kid was like, I do. Thank you. Thank you. Father, son, day out at the thing you read.

You read it. You're setting up an example. And then I was like, well, why? And you know, there was a line I couldn't really get into it too much.

But I'm like, you know, why do you think that? And it was just, I don't like your stuff. Okay, well, that's all right. You know, for why, you know, it's like, well, I don't know if that happy I said my piece kind of thing and I want to move on.

And I'm fine, but that's fine. But you know, that that stuff just drives me crazy, where I don't feel personally insulted by it. But it's a wasted opportunity. Right.

We didn't line for two hours. You know what I mean? Access to your creators online to extend it out beyond that experience. Exactly right.

We're all in it together. And we all want the industry to excel. You know, why do you waste your time making, you know, a thing about you hate something and you're happy it sucks. Like, for me, it's just so counterproductive.

It's actually where it's like, I get that your thinking might be, I'm letting them know how bad this is and they won't do it again. That's not at all what happens. Because what happens is they're like, okay, it's an asshole. That's never going to be that asshole.

And they'll just be like, I'm not listening to that. So the more you think that you're like yelling at Marvel or DC when you do something that's just yelling in terms of your tearing something apart, they just same way. Like if somebody came up to you and was like, you know what? Fuck you.

And the second you say it, they're just, you know, I'm like, there's security where you know, if you came up and you're like, listen, I really care about what this and this. This is how I hope you might. That's a different situation. But there's so much kind of how do I build, how do I get people to listen to me or build an audience, you know, in my blog or YouTube, wherever I think sometimes with with just the fun of tearing stuff apart.

And again, you're welcome to do it. I'm not saying it shouldn't happen. Go ahead and do it. You know, and no hard feelings.

I'm not, I don't, it's not going to hurt me, but I just feel we need your passion to help fix or make the industry better rather than just, you know, if you care, don't just talk about the things that you hate and the things that aren't working. Because sure, you know, if you're doing a civil way, we hear if you don't and you're just bashing, we don't even listen. But if you, you have to offer some kind of positivity or solution or, or I think, you know, enthusiasm for the way things could go in another way. And that's not just put it back the way it was.

That doesn't work. You know, you got to be like, well, it's unrealistic. It's going to go back the way it was. And the market is different.

That's the whole thing is that their whole new opportunity is that they're, they're, they're looking at it. And they want, and we want, you know, we'll grow the industry in really exciting ways. I'm very proud again of a lot of the things that DC is thinking about and the ways that they're approaching their comics and in way and right now and there are things that don't work and things that do. But we are desperate for good, solid feedback from fans that says we love these books and these books could be a little different for these reasons or this.

And we might listen, we might not in terms of reaction to it in terms of what we do. But there's no, there's not, you know, the second you get cruel or mean, it just shuts off. And you know, I certainly, I had my own temper and I wouldn't be where I was if I didn't have my own temper and teeth about stuff and lose my own, you know, I can get mad at times, especially when I was young, when I was 10 years ago, I was much more, it's harder to rattle me now than it was then. But, you know, we can all get angry.

Creators can get angry online too and react poorly and all that stuff happens. And we get it. But the point is we need to find a way, like as comic fans, not even as creators, whatever, but as everybody that wants to grow the industry, I think, to be able to accept it. It's a really, a really sort of growing pains moment, where there's so many different exciting opportunities for comics and characters and all of it.

And there's also a longstanding tradition that needs, I think, to be energized in a really cool way as well and to be honored and taken in directions that, you know, both sort of appeal to the past but do new things. And, you know, we were only going to get there together. It's just that I think there's just, you know, right now I just wish there was more, less kind of less, just glee in talking about what doesn't work and more sort of more passionate about trying to talk about the things that they think could be really exciting and the places that are working so we can grow them, you know, but in the indie DC marvel of it. So, anyway, I can't even really even talk him as long.

I feel like, I feel like I even like read this stuff about YouTube videos where I was like, I have, you know, I was just, I tinker around with my own thing and I was like, nothing should go over 30 minutes because nobody wants to listen to it. But that, like, you know, I feel terrible. I'm like, just cut out everything I said except when I hold up Justice League and I'm like, it's gonna be insane. Whatever you know what I mean, like, a couple of them bites, whatever you need.

But I feel amazing, I feel amazing, be grateful and happy that we talked this long, but I also feel terrible that I'm like, I don't want to make the worst video ever. It's funny, it really depends on what kind of content you're making and also like how much you care about that kind of thing. Like, if you're growing and you're trying to like build, like, yeah, absolutely 30 minutes should be kind of like a terminal, your terminal point. But for me, it's like, we are at a place where like, I'm doing, like, I'm doing well, we're having fun, the videos are cool.

I love your channel too. I'll thank you very much for watching, I appreciate it. I can't but help but feel like, oh shit, maybe I am guilty of that when you're like, we've literally called the good about another where we take comics and like, there is another book and we're like, this one's the worst. And then we talk about it.

One of the things that I've done that I know that yeah, I mean, Louis, I'm, it's not, it's okay. It's just, I just think, I'm trying not to like really enjoy like picking a book apart, but we definitely will like, we'll take, we try to be in some way, construct, we're like, here's why it doesn't work. Here's why it doesn't work. Yeah, I just, the thing I say is mostly again, more today, because I'm talking about books usually from like 30 years ago, but, oh yeah, sure.